...whats the bet the football over-runs AGAIN and DR Who gets put back aweek as feared???...
Of course it will. The football always fucks up the good TV.
BBC1 postpone their flagship programme? Not bloody likely. Anyway, I can't see Watford taking MU Rowdies into extra time.
Why it couldn't be on afterwards and just late I don't know.
Surely Dr Who is miles more important than making sure Any Dream Will Do is on on time?
I agree
Always with the crying. Meh.
M@
First one of this series I've watched. That was utter, utter bollox.
Swifty Frisco and the Terror Tube anyone?
- Steve
"First one of this series I've watched. That was utter, utter bollox."
Why?
Regards
Robin
Oh he admits he nicked the ideas from MC1.
I thought of Max Normal as soon as I saw him but didn't expect it to be mentioned :)
The Face of Boe's revelation: Not really that revelatory for anyone with any notion of how scifi telly works, is it?
But as has just been said.
The Face of Boe isn't lying and the Doctor isn't wrong (in thinking he's alone), it's somewhere inbetween.
So, the Dredd namecheck, the 2000 AD namecheck and the admission that he nicked the idea of the motorway from the Prog, along with that that def was Max Normal.
Should Rebellion be getting a payment then?
It was a real case of spot the reference: old couple at start=american gothic. News announcer=Swifty Frisco, in fact the entire look of the motor way seems to have been lifted from the first couple of pages of Halo Jones.
Liked the plot twist but seemed like an episode that doesn't go anywhere.
What opaque forgot to say is that the MC1 and Max Normal are mentioned in the commentary.
- pj
RTD trying to do satire is never a pretty sight. Also annoying is the way you get characters with alien, plant or animal bits (next week: pigs), yet not bothering to give any real different character to their race. Father Dougal looked like he had just had his face painted at a kids party.
I've tried to give RTD a chance but after the good first episode and okay second this is a very poor mess. He's more often than not totally lost when it comes to writing stories that emerge from the character and emotion pieces he's good at, and his view of SF is in flashy sensation headlines like "year five billion" that are almost set up to fail.
The art and costume deparments seem to think they're working on Eastenders while the inside of the cars looked like a 1950s view of the future (ie the 1970s).
The kidnapping of Martha was pointless, and the Macra were totally wasted, demoted from intelligent evil to stock mindless threat in order to pep up the episode's action quotient. Who would choose to travel on a subterranean Motorway that was perpetually gridlocked when they have flying cars?
More animal headed aliens next week. At least it's a two parter and a historical, which have tended to be better.
It might ahve been jsut me having a Toddler running around, but was that a complete and utter mess?
All the elements seemed to be there, but they didnt add up at all. If i remember my Macra correctly, they have a hypnotic hold on humans in some way? This would explain the mental 6 years to drive 10 miles idea... but i dont think its mentioned thats the reason why they are doing it...
If you gave that plot a shake to get all the bits to fall into place, it might ahve been quite fun.... AS was, it was one of the worst so far - shame, after my slightly optimistic start to the season to have such a clunker... and I dont mind the gay agenda, but every episode? and I probably wouldnt mind every episode, but so clunkily done?
If I didnt know better, I'd have thought it was a spoof of all RTDs weaknesses - Freema seemed a bit unconvincing this week, but then, who can blame her when thats the plot youve been given...
I reallt liked that. Macra! It's only the drokking Macra!
Macra! It's only the drokking Macra!
Don't be silly, David. There's no such thing as Macra. No such thing as Macra!
RTD trying to do satire is never a pretty sight.
True, but this effort is noticeably better than that one in the first series where a baddie claimed that there were aliens in orbit with 'massive weapons of destruction' that could be deployed in 45 seconds. What a cock.
RTD trying to do satire is never a pretty sight.
True, but this effort is noticeably better than that one in the first series where a baddie claimed that there were aliens in orbit with 'massive weapons of destruction' that could be deployed in 45 seconds. What a cock.
So.. can anyone actually summarise the plot in a way that makes sense?
Rebellion should get in touch with RTD and say what they have that could make a TV show, even if RTD didn't do it, he might be able to pass it onto the right person. You never know, a TV show would do a lot for potential sales. more than a film perhaps.
Rebellion should get in touch with RTD and say what they have that could make a TV show, even if RTD didn't do it, he might be able to pass it onto the right person. You never know, a TV show would do a lot for potential sales. more than a film perhaps.
"Yards", "feet" and "miles". You think they'd have got around to using metric on roadsigns by the time women were able to give birth to kittens...
MASSIVE, MASSIVE SPOILERS...
The Dr takes Martha to New New York - about 25 years after his last visit - where, almost as soon as they arrive, she gets kidnapped by a couple who need a third passenger to move from the motorway (a massive tube containing thousands of vehicles that move forwards so slowly people have been there years) to the fast lane (which, it turns out, is populated by devolved Macra - massive, stupid, crabs). The Dr, while trying to find Martha is taken by a cat-nun to the face of Bo in New New York's parliment. Where, it turns out, everyone except those in the undercity and the motorway died 25 years ago due to a drug that evolved into an air born virus (which, handily, has since died out). The face of Bo and the cat-nun have been supplying enough power to let the motorway run on its own, the Dr uses some patented Dr who magic to release the vehicles and everyone ends up happily ever after.
There's some other bits thrown in about the face of Bo's last words ('You are not alone Dr') and Gallifry and Martha feeling like the rebound girlfriend.
And ..er.. that's it.. (I think)
Next week: 1930s Manhatten, pig men, Daleks.
- pj
OK, so what about motivations - whats making people go on the roads? If people can communicate with each other, surely the Macra would have been common knowledge? I know they are kind of an urban myth... but hundreds of em attacking every car to go in the fast lane...?
Theres a promise of something good at the end, but surely, there are people near the end - if noone ever gets to the end after 23 years....
It just doesnt stand up to any kind of thought
Why does it take the Doctor to point out theres no police or what have you - are people really going to ahve been kept in the dark about the plague that wiped out the over city?
Hey, I didn't write it!
-pj
The one question that sprang to my mind was "How did the Macra get there?". Surely someone would have noticed several hundred gigantic crabs arriving?
"OK, so what about motivations"
AAAH ha ha ha ha ha ha ha etc.
I actually quite enjoyed that one, despite the unnecessary giant crabs (how come I don't remember the Macra?), the fact that the CGI people only designed one model of hovering hippie-van, the Face of Booooo's typically shoddy ventriloquism act, the sticky-up bits of Martha's hair, that nonsense about drugs mutating into viruses (the Radio Times should have come with free transparent patches printed with the word "Excitement"), the more-than-obvious 2000AD rip-offs, assorted silliness about the Doctor's people all being dead (he's got a time machine - why can't he go back to rescue them?), the presence of Thermoman, and so on.
I liked it because it had kittens. And they were cute.
As usual, I switched channels before the next-week spoiler, but I don't know why I bother any more.
-- Mike
How can Macra devolve and at the same time grow massively in size?
How come its 5 billion years in the future and the cars are filled with tat that not even poundshops have the nerve to stock anymore? (plastic fish in tubes of bubbly water, those hideous cloth birds sewn on top of each other etc)
I just dont understand why theFace of Boe is maintaining these people in a peretual traffic jam , unless hes in lague with the Macra.
Its like RTD wrote a script that made sense - (people doing this because of Macra mind control) then thought at the very last second "wouldnt it be nice if its actually the FAce of Boe being heroic, rather than a cliched evil monster behind it all"... without bothering to rewrite in order for that to make any kind of sense
And anyway, we've seen devolved Macras before:
"I just dont understand why theFace of Boe is maintaining these people in a peretual traffic jam , unless hes in lague with the Macra."
I was a bit distracted at that point in the show (a big van had parked outside the front of the house and I was wondering what it was up to), but I thought the problem was that having got them all there and protected in the first place he didn't have the know-how (or the hands) to get the machinery working again to open up the motorway when it was safe.
Regards
Robin
"he's got a time machine - why can't he go back to rescue them"
Because it's strictly forbidden to alter the course of history, except when he saves the universe every week.
"How can Macra devolve and at the same time grow massively in size?"
Selection pressure, with environment and circumstances favouring size over intelligence.
Or, the Macra we saw where all the offspring and descendents of one abnormal pregnant Macra that arrived on the planet.
"How come its 5 billion years in the future and the cars are filled with tat that not even poundshops have the nerve to stock anymore? (plastic fish in tubes of bubbly water, those hideous cloth birds sewn on top of each other etc)"
Well, it only took a few decade for people to forget how naff the 70s were and for flares to become fashionable again.
Regards
Robin
Y'know- one thing that I do not understand...
If this show is so fucking unswervingling shit every week- then WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU STILL WATCHING IT??
Why not just watch something you like? Or is that to adult an option?
Come now, Rac. We nerds are amongst the worst demographic for hurting the ones we love.
I don't, I didn't watch the first two episodes of this series and didn't comment about them. I usually watch Harry Hill, which I like more.
Occasionally, it's not unswervingly shit: The Empty Child, The Girl In The Fireplace, the Dickens one, and bits of Dalek.
However, the real reason is that I care about science-fiction and drama, so it's hard to ignore when someone has taken something which was already an institution - if RTD had just invented his own show without the immense hype connected to this show it would be less offensive when it's bad and easier to ignore.
I find it interesting why things don't work, it helps you appreciate what makes other things work and what stories are all about (and if we all ignored the bad points these threads would be just more platitudes for RTD). However, most of the people posting here seem to have picked up on the major flaws without my help, I'm probably just being a bit more of a bore about it.
Incidentally, the above comment about not changing history applies to old Doctor Who also, much of which I like.
Gotta say I really liked this episode. Not just for the plot laying it accomplished with the Face of Boe's message to the Doctor. The twist at the end about the situation of the drivers caught me off guard, and that's always a plus.
I'll say this once, Doctor Who may not be the greatest show ever made, but it is the best pure Adventure show I've watched in years and years. It's just got so much heart and does cheese without being cheesy.
With the lifting of stuff from 2000ad, I wonder if they've considered approaching John Wagner to actually write a script for the New Who?
- Steve
"With the lifting of stuff from 2000ad, I wonder if they've considered approaching John Wagner to actually write a script for the New Who"
John and Pat Mills did try and get a Who script done during the end of the Tom Baker years. These eventually got re-worked into comic scripts for the first issues of the Dr. Who weekly. The Iron Legion would still make a fantastic episode.
Pat came a little closer during the Davison years with "Space Whale" coming a little closer to commission. Apparently it got dropped because the script editor didn't like the crew of the space whaler speaking in naturalistic dialogue.
I'd love to see Pat Mills script an episode. The petition starts here.
- Huey
forgot to say: I've enjoyed every episode this season so far. At the same stage last year I hadn't enjoyed a single one.
Sure there hasn't been a fanastic episode yet along the likes of "Girl in the fireplace" or "Father's Day" but there seems to have been a definate upturn in quality.
Who knows? At this rate Torchwood might be alright this year.
- Huey
Absolutely fucking loved that! Up there with the best of them, I thought. And the 2000ad refs were just the icing on the cake. And and and- who else got a leeeetle thrill from hearing RTD namecheck 2000ad, Judge Dredd, Mega City One and Max Normal in DW Confidential afterwards?
Brilliant, brilliant stuff.
Steev
Setting aside the perfecton of Father Dougal as a comedy character, how does Ardal O'Hanlon keep getting work as an actor? He is completely and utterly rubbish, with teleprompter-style delivery and two (count 'em) inane expressions - gleeful and bewildered - that make-up did nothing to hide. I did briefly wonder how many nipples his character's wife might have, but that's just me...
I thought this was a very poor episode, and I kept waiting for Richard Briers or Bertie Basset to show up in of the ridiculous cars. The Face of Boe's revelation was an anticlimax, and a sad end for one of the strongest visuals of New Who, and about as difficult a connundrum as the anagrams in the daVinci Code.
I watch it every week because it has promise,and even though it falls short most weeks, its better than a lot of TV out there. Where theres life, theres hope.
The first series seemed to be on an upwwards trajectory, the second series dissolved into a mire of smugness, but not so much as it felt worth giving up on... to be fair, I dont think the major critics of new Who on this forum are still watching it each week.
I dont know, I can see what you're saying RAC, but I'd if those who enjoyed it could mount a robust defence against the criticisms (other than "its a kids show" or "its the emotions that matter").
:: Should Rebellion be getting a payment then?
Because, clearly 2000 AD has never been inspired by ideas from elsewhere.
:: Who would choose to travel on a subterranean Motorway
:: that was perpetually gridlocked when they have flying
:: cars?
Who would choose to drive on the M25 every day when there are trains?
:: Yards", "feet" and "miles". You think they'd have got around
:: to using metric on roadsigns
Metric's still made almost no headway in the USA, here in 2007.
Anyway, I thought this was greatâ??one of the best Doctor Who episodes of Tennant's run, and it's great to see a lack of 'gurning' from the lead.
I noticed in the podcast that he does namecheck Rebellion in a 'don't sue us' moment...
- Steve
Loved it and I hope that hymn that the people stuck in the motorway sang is in the next soundtrack beautiful.
I've not heard the podcast yet I just went by the DW Confidential show, but nice that he at least acknowledges his references.
The bit I have the problem with the show was in a way you can accept people getting used to travelling so slowly (although those cabs were far too small, if you can't even stand up properly they'd all have curved spines!) but what about the people who were at the front when it was closed off, what about the people at the front at any point? People who set off on the day of the accident and weren't getting anywhere would wonder whats going on.
How did they not know about the Macra? Well it looks, just like now, that most people were on their own or with one other person, therefore theres not many people going onto the fast lane to contact their friends when something happens. They weren't discovered before the accident as the traffic moved so quickly they probably only caught the dregs.
Why wasn't there any queue jumping etc? They might have had to get permission to get to the fastlane but they could certainly move about when they were trying to escape or when the roof got open. But why was there a roof anyway? didn't seem to be anything above it, was it covered just for aesthetic reasons?
I thought it was an excuse for another 'celebrity' cameo for no real reason but was saved by the end of it with the revelation of what happened to the senate and the wonderful visuals. Very MC1 really.
I thought this was a very poor episode, and I kept waiting for Richard Briers or Bertie Basset to show up in of the ridiculous cars.You mean...
:: what about the people at the front at any point
If the motorway is akin to the M25, it's just a continuous stream of traffic, with people exiting and joining all the time. If all of the exits on the M25 were simultaneously closed, you'd end up in a similar situation, until fuel ran out.
:: How did they not know about the Macra?
They all seemed to suspect something was wrong, but tried not to think about the noises they could hear.
:: was it covered just for aesthetic reasons?
Sounds about right. They've been trying, unsuccessfully, to do the same to the road past Stonehenge for years.
Watching it again, the only real problem with it all is the reasoning for the people staying on the roads...
The hologram is telling them lies about whats happening in the Over city - is that The Face of Boe doing that?
Wouldnt it make more sense for the face of boe to have made contact with the undercity and told them to try and escape?
Is it that the Macra to encourage people to use the motorway so they can live in the fumes? Presumably not, as they have devolved into beasts.
If its a ring road, wouldnt people soon realise they had looped around and well.. give up? RTD says the show must be rooted in the reality of human emotions and reactions to events - in this story, theres no plausible explanation offered for why they believe the motorway is a good thing - You'd need some form of mind control or plausible manipulation for this set up to pay off.
Its like an Agatha Christie where at the end, Miss Marple says "she dunnit" and the credits roll - you are left with this bundle of questions that leave me over analysing the story. If ome of this mystery had been addressed in the plot, I wouldnt be so nit pickety now.
I really dont think the 45 minutes work very well to be honest - especially not when a third of it is used on the character stuff - for my money, save that for the 2 parters, and fill you 45 minuters with pure plot - otherwise, they'll always feel a but shallow - basically 30-35 minutes to build a new world, introduce a mystery and resolve it? Its rarely going to be more than superficial.
I haven't seen it, so can't criticise, but based on what you've said, isn't the problem the script editor in these cases? Should he or she sort all of this stuff out before it hits the screen. From what I've picked up, many of the Old Who ones in the 70's were fairly formidable!
Well, theres no such thing as a script editor these days - the role exists, but it's a much less senior position, and certainly doesnt involve rewriting a script for senses sake.
"Well, theres no such thing as a script editor these days - the role exists, but it's a much less senior position, and certainly doesnt involve rewriting a script for senses sake."
There are about 3 script editors. Much less senior as they are no longer selecting writers, themes or direction - that's all the show-runner's job now.
So, as far as I can tell the script editor job seems to only be making sure the running time is okay and checking it makes sense.
As for getting the story to make sense I think the plot-holes could have been brushed away with the tiniest of re-writes.
My only niggle: the Macra! Too large, not annoying in a fanboy way, but they seemed far less menacing when the car could dart around them. They'd have been much more threatening at their original size.
- huey
I liked it a lot. I enjoyed the 2000ad references and, although I was never really in too much suspense that there would be a happy ending, I thought it was quite exciting in places.
I'm not much of a Whovian, though. I just like entertaining TV.
- Trout
I watched it again (cause I missed the ending on Saturday) and am of the opinion that it's one of the worst new who I've seen.
the whole thing came accross like a school boy essay.
'OK, so it's sci-fi so we have to put some sci-fi stuff in... OK twin suns, all the best sci-fi stories have planets with twin suns... ok silver leaves and blue grass.. yeah cos it's a different planet way out in outer space and silver leaves are just totally sci-fi & alien like...
OK so it's the future, let's set the story in the year 5000... no wait not sci-fi enough... 500,000.. no still not right... 5,000,000.. oh that's getting better. You can't get much more sci-fi than the year 5 million... UNLESS... yes! that's it.. It's the year 5 BILLION!!! wow this is going to be the most sci-fi story EVER' etc... I could go on and on and on.
And where did those crabs come from?
How did they get there?
Why was everyone driving the same campervan?
And why were the camper vans kitted out like they were from the 20th century (jars of pickled eggs etc...).
It's clear to see RTD got alot of his ideas from 2000ad and I'll guess he's had a look at this site and possibly this message board..
So Russel T Davis, if you read this please take note. You're shit at writing Dr Who... let someone with a bit of wit about them take over the writing/producing chores because you are clearly out of your depth.
This show isn't Dr. Who. It's something trying to be Dr. Who and failing miserably.
You might ask.. 'why watch it'. I have such a fondness of proper Who I just live in hope it'll turn out OK some day.
Sylvester McCoy come back. All is forgiven.
I thought it was perfectly serviceable fare really and was surprised to see RTD had written it as there was hardly any forced emotion in it (although the Doctor was making too much of having 'lied' to Miss Jones).
All three episodes of this series have been better than I expected - even Tennant has calmed down in the role.
Well I thought it was a feckin brilliant episode, one of the best.
So there!
Poor face of Bo :-(
Well I thought it was a feckin brilliant episode, one of the best.
So there!
I also enjoyed it - although, as per usual with RTD scripts, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny very much. With just a few changes (well, one would have done!), it could have been an all time classic - the Macra should have been their former Machevellian selves and engineered the whole situation; destroying the Overcity by creating the Bliss Virus, then using the dermal patch things in combination with the hologram character to mind control the Undercity population, so they've got a ready supply of noxious gas and the occasional snack.
In fact, the story makes a whole lot more sense if you think that's what they are doing and the Doctor just never finds out...
:: there was hardly any forced emotion in it
Eh? What about the singing of the hymn and, of course, the obligatory tears? The frustrating thing seems to be that Doctor Who offers the potential to tell stories about anything and set them anywhere, yet we get unimaginative, clunky and superficial nonsense.
Saying that, it's an odd contradiction - the show is very enjoyable, but rarely any good.
M@
Maybe that should have been 'there wasn't as much forced emotion as the series usually drowns in.'
So Russel T Davis, if you read this please take note. You're shit at writing Dr Who... let someone with a bit of wit about them take over the writing/producing chores because you are clearly out of your depth.
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure this tactic will work.
Also I think it may be an idea to include phrases like "I think" or "In my opinion" in your request.
Yeah, Lobo - to my mind its the only explanation that makes sense
The gridlock only came into being after the virus (24 years ago, and the old ladies had been amongst the first to join 23 years ago).
someone had to tell poeple that the motorway was their way out - the only people who had anyhting to gain by telling people this was the Macra. and there is someone telling tehm the motorway leads to salvation - the hologram for one, and theres rumours and talk of jobs outside that must come from somewhere .
Boe didnt get anything by maintaining that illusion - he'd have been better supporting them for as long as he needed (until the virus cleared) and then telling them to start digging!
since there's no reasonable explanation for people expectations of salvation on the motorway - no-one ever gets off and theres strong rumours of monsters - it makes no sense that anyone would persist in the belief there was for a quarter of a century. Now, if the Macra were behind it, it all makes sense...
I can only think that was the original intention, RTD thought "I can do a story with no baddies too" very late in teh day, and didnt think through the implications of this decision on his scripts - why else use the (previous masters of mind-controlling manipulation Macra? I suspect if I'm right about the above, it was an attempt to save time by losing their conspiracy subplot. Now, spread over two episodes, with the Doctor investigating the mystery (and not just being info-dumped the answers), this could have been another Empty Child style modern classic
as is, it's nonsense, no matter how enjoyable you might find the other elements.
Tips, I'm not convinced it will work either, just sounding off.
Yeah, Lobo - to my mind its the only explanation that makes sense
Yeah, the annoying thing was that when the Doctor said 'Macra!' I though 'Aha! So, it's the malevalent macinations of the misanthropic Macra! Now it all makes sense! Can't go wrong with a giant fibreglass crab the size of a mini etc' but it turned out it was all a load of coincidences after all.
Again.