2000 AD Online Forum

...ooooooo-eeeeee-oooooooo, here we go again chaps, bring on the Reapers if your hard enough...

Quite enjoyable, I thought, without being too offensive to everyone's deeply held beliefs about what happens when you mess around with time.

One quibble: why did the various incarnations of Rose all have different coloured eyes?

...and since when did the timelords fix rifts/anomilies in time?...

And as someone pointed out on another forum and I have shamelessly used as my own point, wasn't the car going a bit slow to kill Rose's dad?

Pretty good, I thought. Not the best episode so far, but nicely written and directed. The music was intrusive and schmaltzy at points, and the Reapers, while generally convincingly rendered, weren't a great design. The "death" of the Doctor and the disappearance of the TARDIS were nicely done, and the reference to the Timelords was interesting.

All in all a decent, solid episode that even managed to stir this old computer to a stifled sob ;-)

Next week's opening part of the "The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances" double episode looks promising. I'm looking forward to finding out what the thing the Doctor chases through time is (though I think a preview elsewhere has already answered that for me) and the period setting looks well-realised.

weren't a great design

They *did* have a look of 'flying cunt' about them, didn't they? ;)

An enjoyable episode, if somewhat marred slightly by the major similarities to The Langoliers.

Someone really should take the guy who does the incidental music outside for a quiet word.
Like 'intrusive', perhaps.  Or 'annoying'.

"They *did* have a look of 'flying cunt' about them, didn't they?"

???

"They *did* have a look of 'flying cunt' about them, didn't they? ;)"

That is without a shadow of the doubt the most 'interesting' quote I have ever read on 2k's board. Hard to know how to reply to that!!!!!!

"...and since when did the timelords fix rifts/anomilies in time?..."


Since always. It was one of the things Rassilon decided they should start doing after he'd convinced them that using their time technology for their own amusement was a generally bad idea.

I heard that Quantum Leap geezer was going to fix the time wound but couldn't be arsed.:)

...when i said 'since when did the timelords...' it was meant in the context that it was suggested in last nights program, which implied that was there remit to fix time problems, now i know most casual viewers and new fans wont have picked up on this, but the timelords were always more observant but when they interfered it was always more as a covert operation...

The music was intrusive and schmaltzy at points,

The incidental music is naff every week.

Is it just my telly, or does it sometimes drown out the dialogue?  I was struggling to hear every conversation between Rose and her dad in the church...

I watched it this morning, and I thought it was pretty good for a paradox thing.

Okay, so there were plenty of minor niggles I could work myself up about, but I just let myself go along for the ride.

I don't have a clue what was going on in Next Week's Spoiler, but that's a good thing :-)

Worst episode so far. I can take the dodgy already aged SFX (it is, after all Doctor Who) but the woeful use of time travel is unforgivable in a show about time travel.

Rose can't touch herself as a child becasue it creates a paradox? Why is that then?

Surely there were two paradoxes (paradoxi?):

1) The first time the Doctor and Rose see her father die, they don't see Rose run out and save him.

2) Rose saved her dad. That creates a paradox along the lines of the chestnut "what happens if you kill your grandfather". The point is if she saved her dad then she wouldn't want to go back to 1987 later on, meaning that she wouldn't go back to save him, so he would die, meaning that she would want to go back, so he wouldn't die. ETC.

I realise I am sounding off like a sad fanboy twat, but I was really excited when she saved her dad as I thought the story was going to explore this classic time travel conundrum. Instead, we get dodgy music, dodgy monsters and dodgy haircuts (the 80s 'dos were the most scary thing in the episode).

In isolation, I thought there were some nice touches: Mickey on the swings while all his mates vanish; Rose meeting Mickey; and, the well done father-Rose emotional bit.

I also think that, perhaps due to the 45 minute per episode limitation, the whole series is relying a bit too much on the Doctor as a Deus Ex Machina/ narrator/ handy plot device.

There seems to be a bit much of things being taken for granted if the Doc says them; for example, "They can't get in the church becasue the walls are old". Oh, okay then.

And is there anything a sonic screwdriver can't sort? I wonder what Rose does with it during the night?

In contrast to Dr X - I thought it was the best episode yet.

I thought it was pretty great.  Paul Cornell is sometimes accused of laying on the sentiment a bit thickl in his work, and this one was definitely a bit of a weepie, but definitely still one of the stand-out episodes of the series so far.

It's about a simple human drama question that any non-spod casual viewer to latch onto - if you can travel in time, wouldn't you try to go back and stop bad things happening to the people you love?

Real pathos and character drama in Dr Who - who could have imagined it?  

woo-hoo, this starts over here(in OZ)this Saturday.  So looking foward to this, but only one episode per week!!! will this be enough to sate my Who cravings?

CU Krestel

That TARDIS can be pretty acurate when it wants to be... I was hoping they'd start off with the emotional "let's go back & save my dad" plan, they type in the destination time, date & place, and then spend the rest of the episode battling Quzzzke Beasts on Exxxon IV, because the TARDIS doesn't work very well.

But as it was, I enjoyed it.
Except for the 'paradox' of Rose touching herself (oo-err). Surely that's no more paradoxial then her seeing herself?

Watching Dr Who confidential and they said that the touching paradox had to be written in because of a storyline with Peter Davison's doctor where the brigadier touched himself (enough already) and there was a big explosion (I said enough).

Despite the fact that Rose touching herself (quiet up the back there) and causing a paradox doesn't make sense, the episode was tops.  Shaky Doctor/companion relationship, churches, good monsters, tears - a real throwback to Cornell's Who novels in the 1990s.

I also like the way that other people are getting a chance to save the day apart from the Doctor.  We've had Rose, Tree lady, welsh girl, Mickey, Rose again and that other girl last week and now Rose's dad.

Krestel: There's still the Tom Baker episodes on weeknights to keep you busy...

I liked it a lot (as did the Mrs).  It pulled a bit hard on the heart strings, and some of the paradox issues probably don't suffer detailed examination, but for story purposes they worked pretty well.

Miss Piper's a good enough actor and did blubbing well.  I thought she more than held her own with the older members of the cast, and for me I'll be sorry to this Doctor regenerate at the end of this series.

What's the viewing figures then....?

Doctor Who - 7.5 million (42%)
Celebrity Wrestling - 2.3 million (14%)

"2) Rose saved her dad. That creates a paradox along the lines of the chestnut "what happens if you kill your grandfather". The point is if she saved her dad then she wouldn't want to go back to 1987 later on, meaning that she wouldn't go back to save him, so he would die, meaning that she would want to go back, so he wouldn't die. ETC. "

Not sure about that.

Every incident has a starting point - by that I mean Rose's dad died in the original time stream. For Rose to go back and alter that moment she has to meet the Dr and use the TARDIS. Once she goes back, the original time stream is changed but the significant thing is Rose's dad still dies. She changed the way he dies, or rather, the point at which he dies, but he still dies so there is no real paradox. Obviously, had the older Rose decided to stay in 1987 there would have been a huge time paradox, possibly a time loop.

Something like this:

Two Rose Tylers co-exist in 1987 and this would continue up to 2005 when the older Rose meets the Dr, takes her back to 1987 and we have the time loop. Only way to avoid that loop would be for the Dr to come back to 1987 or a following year after that and remove the older Rose from that year. Time loop is broken, and just one Rose Tyler in 1987.

I think that all makes sense.:)

Whew... my own take on the whole paradox business was this:

When Rose saved her father, she didn't change her own timeline, but rather opened a new universe in which her father didn't die (in accordance with that theory that says that whenever something that could've happened didn't happen, it happened in another universe).

The incarnations of the Doctor and Rose who saw it happen and then disappeared did so because they were a part of the original universe, not this new one.

The universe was all unstable and full of Reapers because it was based on a paradox, and therefore couldn't logically have come to be. A weak argument, I know, but it works.

And, for those who want to know, the episode where the Brigadier caused a paradox by touching himself was, if memory serves, the final episode of 'Mawdryn Undead'

Another superb episode I thought.

I really really looked this time, but didn't spot the Bad Wolf, where was it this week?

It was scratched into one of the posters on the wall just before Rose's dad got run over.

Thanks!

Can I be *really* horridly stupid and ask what the Bad-Wolf is?

No-one knows yet. There have been little mentions of the phrase throughout the series so far, and the penultimate episode in the first series is called "Bad Wolf", so it is building to something. Very intriguing...

.... funnily enough, working on the Who strip they won't tell me either- but I noticed when ep2 of the strip I've just done with Roachy and Dylan, a poster in the background of one panel now has Bad Wolf on it, and I certainly didn't put it there... whooooo.....!

Link: www.freakhousegraphics.co.uk

I dunno, I just keep thinking Russel T Davies likes staying up late typing this stuff while crying into his hankie.  Everything seems really over the top emotionally.

...except this ep was written by Paul Cornell...

I enjoyed that a lot

even though (and I'm sure Mister Cornell can explain) they didn't seem to have thought through all of the time paradoxes etc.  And it seemed awfully handy that the car kept looping around the church.

But brilliant stuff - some great touches, neat monsters and a loser dad who is smart enough to realise he's a loser.  The Mickey stuff was fun too.  Tiny Tips also loved it.

Tips - how tiny is tiny-tips?  I was wondering how young are the young children who are being allowed to watch this series.

Yeh, I was going to mention that. The BBC are releasing the boxed DVD set of the new Who Series as a 12 - if so why is it on at 7.00pm?

I'm letting Finn watch it, who's 3. He saw this week's episode while I was in Bristol. On Sunday he told me that he didn't like the scary flying things, but he still watched the episode again with me on video on Sunday.

He can't be pursuaded to watch any of the original Star Wars films because Darth Vader is too scary. The only version he has seen is the Gangster Rap one on the Internet.

Wake

More importantly, why is the BBC trying to flog a 13-episode box-set at ?70 (that's SEVENTY pounds?) That's not a huge rip-off, then...

Dr. Who is now the only "must see" programme on TV in our household, with frantic pre-holiday Video Player instruction of ageing parents and useless siblings ("We've programmed it to record Dr. Who. If you're around, just don't touch it.  Don't unplug it.  Don't switch it off.  No. Just don't touch it.  Don't touch it.  Oh for God's sake Dad, give me back your spare key".).  

Cementing this phenomenon with some real emotional involvement, "Father's Day" was fecking excellent, and ellicited more than one tear from the missus and much opened-mouthed "flippineck" from your more stoic correspondent.  

Okay, it's a pretty hackneyed plot, but just beautifully executed (crappily intrusive music aside), and a great continuation of the "I'm a manic-depressive timelord but i'll let my pretty companion distract me with her enthusiasm for exactly what a Time Machine can do" plot arc.

Why is there nothing else half as good as this on the box at the moment?

MINI-SPOILER


I would never have believed that modern Dr. Who could have contained any moment as shocking and perfect as the empty Tardis reveal.  

Mini-WoD (2 1/2 today) doesn't get to watch Dr Who (a bit too young), but does enjoy Star Wars Episode 4, or as he calls it, 'Little Robot DVD'.  We've even caught him doing the 'Darth Vader Theme Tune'  his other favourite is the car chase scene in the (original) Italian Job (and he often sings the theme tune to that as well).

Finally caught up with it. Yeah, good episode. Really enjoyed it, can't say there's been a better one this new series.

My own take on the layering of time travel is that in the original universe, Rose's dad was killed and Rose wasn't there to see it. When the Doctor and Rose visited that time, their presence erased the time-line that issued from moment originally, to the effect that the new timeline included the Doctor and Rose watching (no rescue attempt). That timeline too became adjusted (erased) when the Doctor and Rose visited again and Rose impulsively saved her father. The point of not being seen by their earlier selves is to avoid changing too much in the new timeline that follows. If alternate timelines get created you can't access them by time travel. You'd have to travel interdimensionally, like in the Jon Pertwee adventure 'Inferno'.

As to why Rose can't interact with her earlier self, it's just 'Not A Good Idea'.

There was lots of guff that didn't warrant too careful thinking about, but what made up for that was all the mushy stuff. I watched the end on my own last night and I cried for the last 15 minutes. Deborah watched the end this morning while I was getting ready for work and I came downstairs to find her having a good old cry too.

The next episode looks good. My nieces enjoyed the Dalek one and the youngest had nightmares about it for 3 days afterwards. Of course they look forward to every episode!

I can still remember having nightmares about the Daleks from when I was about 7, 27 years ago, and some of the specifics like hiding under the desk in junior school!!  And don't get me started on the nightmares I had from watching Day Of the Triffids on the BBC.

Tiny Tips is five and hums the Dr Who theme tune when it comes on.  It's the only event telly we have in our house; everyone, save teenage daughter, cosying up on the sofa to watch it.

He absolutely loved the dalek episode - looking forward to a few more classic monsters turning up.

Tiny Tips also likes Star Wars and Jurassic Park movies. He's not scared by dinosaurs eating people in the slightest.  

I am still umming and ahing about taking him to see the next Star Wars film though (hey - its' had some positive reviews) as it sounds a bit violent and dark.  He's already convinced he's going to see it though so we might have to do an early showing so I have all day to take his mind off the dismemberings and immolations etc.

I'm looking forward to him getting to about eight or nine and sitting down and watching Lord of The Rings with him - at the moment we don't even have it on when hes around because I think it would be a bit scary for him.

yeah..it's not easy.  There's some sections in Star Wars I try to distract the boy when they are on (like Vader throttling someone very early on and the fight scene in the cantina), but as the little bugger can operate the DVD player, there's not much stopping him really!

That's something that I've always puzzled over.
the Star Wars movies have an awful amount of beheadings and amputations, as well as entire planet fulls of people being wiped out, yet they have all, up to now, managed to get a U certificate.
Which makes me wonder what the hell this one has that requires a higher rating. Either way, I'll go and see it first, before deciding if the younglings can go... aww who am I kidding, they'll see it on DVD anyway, won't they?

Chris Lee has his head off, as does Jar Jar Binks, and there's a bit at the end where you-know-who comes about after Annakin falls into some lava and gets horrifically burned.  And he kills the wife, too.  The cad.

Eldest Nephling (4.5) reports that "the garlicks are scary, but the Doctor always makes things better."

He's still too fidgity for anything longer yet.

Visiting a mate recently I was delayed because I got stuck in a lift. I couldn't ring for help cause the button wasn't working and couldn't get a signal on my mobile.

My mates 8 year old daughter pointed out that what I really need is a moby like the Doctors friend has. I was delighted to see see that not only is she watching she's talking about it too.

Oh Bear you're a gent thanks for telling us all those details we were about to enjoy in the film on its release.

And if I may say so you truly endeavour to raise our viewing pleasure by filing every minute detail for us to read unaware that they are the terrific parts of the film

Thank you.

Please tell me if you are watching Dead mans Shoes
its a great film about a Derbyshire bloke who takes revenge on a bunch of drug dealing scum for filling his spasticated brother full of drugs and letting him hang himself.
All the way through film you are made to think the brother is still alive but guess what?

HES NOT!

;>

I'm just glad of the news of the beheaded jar-jar.

It'll be like watching Wesley Crusher die in Toy Soldiers all over again.

As for the car turning up around the church, I just assumed that time was trying to correct itself, so was bringing the car as close to Rose's dad as possible, in the hope of hitting him and correcting the annomoly.

Bad Bear!!

Although I've already heard that Christopher Lee get's topped, I didn't know how...

(And the JarJar news is indeed welcome!)

Bad Bear!!

Although I've already heard that Christopher Lee get's topped, I didn't know how...

(And the JarJar news is indeed welcome!)

The simultaneous posting on this thread had caused a temporal rift, creating two alternate realities.

Hopefully, this post will sort it out.

Bear, that was rotten of you.

And Carlsborg, two wrongs don't make a right. I might have caught up with that film you spoilerised as well before long...

oops.
sorry ush.

I knew some one would be pissed about that,but this isnt the first time hes spoilt a film for me.

Still 3 wrong wont add up either.

sorry.

Apology accepted, Carlsborg. Never mind - the chances of me ever catching up with most of the films I've missed in the past decade are quite slim anyway.

what's wrong with being scared of garlic?

It looks like the next episode of doctor who,has had a small bit cut now by the bbc.I just hope if they make a thing of doing this alot,that they will also show them uncut at some point.

But why?

The entire Dr Who series is based on the mystery of there ever being a saga of this kind ever in the human imagination and indeed it fends off all discrepencies that go against it to make it a folding sensibility full stop.

Count how many years it has been going for up until now.


;)

"Bertie! We're made!"

It looks like the next episode of doctor who,has had a small bit cut now by the bbc.

Calm down - it's only a sound effect!

>Chris Lee has his head off, as does Jar Jar
>Binks, and there's a bit at the end where you-
>know-who comes about after Annakin falls into
>some lava and gets horrifically burned. And he
>kills the wife, too. The cad.

Errmm, having seen it last night, some of that's utter bollocks.

   Steve

...debate, debate, debate...

Time travel stories in which history is changed are usually lazy, ill-thought out, anti-dramatic tosh. Soap operatics aside, so was this.

The whole sordid Chris Lee business shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone - I worked out the entire plot to RotS after seeing AotC, and I'm pretty sure I put more mental effort into it than George Lucas ever bothered to.

Frankly, anyonbe who went to see 'Episode III' without knowing exactly what was going to happen (or those that did, for that matter) deserve to have it spoiled for them, since they're just as inately evil as someone deliberately ploughing their car into a load of people queing for a bus, etc, etc...