The Political Thread

[Funt Solo]

I remember (with some dismay) all the Bible-thumping from my schooling in the 70s and 80s up in the Highlands. They forced me at one point to win a Bible through my writing, so in protest I burned it.

So, in the US: the negative is the flag ceremony (although you can choose your own level of quiet opting out). On the positive side we don't have religious indoctrination in schools here due to the "separation of church and state" thing built into the US constitution. All the mad church stuff gets shoe-horned into kids heads outside of school.

My daughter has some friends at school who, on hearing that she wasn't a believer (which, by the way, is entirely her choice), commiserated with her about their fact that she would be going to hell. I quite liked her response: "Probably not."

[IndigoPrime]

I have a friend whose kids went to a fairly well-to-do school. One of his sons came home in floods of tears, because he'd been informed by a teacher that "daddy was going to hell". I'm told that a very interesting parent/teacher meeting followed.

[TordelBack]

Head scratching stuff!  In my ignorance I thought the Pledge of Allegiance had stopped some time back, precisely because it had the whole God bit and public schools were aggressively secular (shows what getting your educational info from The Simpsons does).

We too endured a daily prayer fest in school in RoI, as I imagine did every kid in Ireland my age be they Catholic, Protestant, Jew or Dissenter, but I've been lucky enough to send my kids to Educate Together schools (no religious instruction, except in the sense of learning about all religions) and so the very concept has faded into some sort of dusty Tom Brown's Schooldays archive in my noggin. At least here a daily act of worship is imposed by religious patrons (the Churches still own and subvent most of the schools) and bootlicking parents, not mandated by the state. 

However, the reality of funding a school which draws solely from State coffers, outside of the supports of a parish or minority religion, has proved sobering, as has the grassroots opposition to their siting. My son is gong into the third year of a new Educate Together secondary school, and they still haven't even got a temporary site yet (the norm would be portacabins in a carpark), they're still squatting in the as-yet unfilled spare classrooms of two other new startup schools of a more traditonal bent. Makes you wonder, as it is no doubt intended to do, whether we should have just (as we say here) taken the soup. (The soup in this instance being bunsen burners).

[JayzusB.Christ]

Sorry, Funt, bit of a sweeping and unfair generalisation about Americans from me. Like Tordels says, the vast amount of Americans I've met are clever, open-minded and decent - I suppose the way news works is that we only hear about the bad guys (particularly the bad guy-in-chief).

I suppose what irks me is the arrogant side of national pride in general. Like when George W claimed that his enemies-du-jour 'hate us for our freedom' - I seriously doubt it was jealousy that drove the terrorist attacks.

No worries from me, JB - before I moved here (from Scotland) I was far less able to see what a mixed bag this place is. And I only live in one small corner, and it's a left-leaning corner. Plus, like you, I hate the flag-waving bullshit and the idea that it's "the best country in the world". Posturing tribalism.

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Cheers Funt, glad I didn't cause offence.  I do find the ceremony you describe fairly chilling - I'd heard a while ago it's a relatively recent introduction into schools but had shut the whole thing out of my mind.

I suppose, like Tordelback describes, I grew up when schools were riddled with Christian Brothers (surely the most wretched social club there is) and nuns, and the bullshit rituals feel normal when you don't have a lens through which to view their weirdness .

Though very few locals were impressed when a nun advised a teenage girl I knew not to talk to a Protestant schoolmate (a close friend of the first girl, and obviously in a minority in that school).

My primary school principal, by the way, was an unmarried ex-Christian Brother and a violent psychopath - most teachers hadn't quite adjusted to the corporal punishment ban, but this prick smashed heads off radiators for talking in class. I heard he was eventually given a thorough hiding by local parents and I'm afraid, for all my pacifist tendencies, I was pleased to hear it.

[Tjm86]

I'm trying VERY hard to be pragmatic with mini-IP and her school is fairly soft touch on this stuff. But even so, her head's being filled full of Christian teachings as an 'accurate thing that definitely happened' rather than historically dubious retellings of stories that have barely more confirmed accuracy beyond common myths from anywhere else in history.

This is the bit that drives me completely insane, and this as one of the 'middle eastern sky god cultists', that the Bible is viewed as an accurate and detailed history.  No!

I mean, leaving aside the fact that there are sections that are openly declared as works of poetry, fiction or other literary forms, even the accuracy of the 'historical' sections is pretty patchy. 

[Okay, insanely patchy but please bear with me.  If I tried this on the Guardian website I would be stoned.  At least here you guys just pat me on the head, smile benignly and move the conversation on ...]

As for the old 'act of collective worship' in schools.  The guidelines and expectations are now so mind-boggling that it is a wonder that even lip service is paid to it.  Actually, outside of inspections it quite often isn't but that's another story.

Now it is supposed to be 'broadly but not exclusively Christian'  .  It is supposed to inspire 'awe and wonder'   .  There is supposed to be deep and meaningful reflection  .

To be honest, more often than not there is more concern with evidence that it is happening involving all sorts of bizarre and tortuous jobs for teachers or the more amenable members of a class.

I do remember upsetting one of our old heads suggesting that the daily collective act of worship would be fairly straightforward since we were always worshipping the school Rugby team.  He wasn't totally convinced.

[Robin Low]

To my mind, the option for people to not take part isn't always helpful anyway. I remember our daily act of worship at school, where a few kids would be ushered out before out teachers would force us into some fucking awful bout of piano and singing in praise of Jesus. They were the odd ones. That wasn't great for them. I'm trying VERY hard to be pragmatic with mini-IP and her school is fairly soft touch on this stuff. But even so, her head's being filled full of Christian teachings as an 'accurate thing that definitely happened' rather than historically dubious retellings of stories that have barely more confirmed accuracy beyond common myths from anywhere else in history.

I went through it all at school, too, but I'm quite proud of the fact that I'm familiar with the stories and characters from the bible. I know people who are equally proud of their atheism, but sadly it's often coupled with ignorance of the very thing they don't believe in. I'm less worried about indoctrination at school than I am about ignorance.

I think being told the stories from the bible is as important as being read fairy tales and Aesop's fables as a child. I don't say that to belittle Christian or other religious belief, either. Stories are important, whether they're true or not.

Regards,

Robin

[Funt Solo]

I have thought about my bible-burning escapade, that I'd have learned more if I'd read it. Years later, as an adult, I chose to read Crumb's Illustrated Book of Genesis, which was a bit of an eye opener. For knowledge I lean on masters such as Hitchens and his superlative "god is not Great" (capitalization following the cover).

I'm wary of the idea that a committed Christian can dismiss those parts of the Bible that trouble them by saying "oh well, that part is simply metaphor, my child - didn't you know?", whilst still touting the parts they want me to believe as literal. Having one's cake and eating it, that is.

Anyway - everyone's being really nice just now so I should probably back off and leave those better equipped (Hitchens) to make my points for me.

[TordelBack]

...I'm quite proud of the fact that I'm familiar with the stories and characters from the bible. I know people who are equally proud of their atheism, but sadly it's often coupled with ignorance of the very thing they don't believe in.

Much the same thoughts here (although you don't have to know about a thing to justifying not believing in a thing - lack of belief is a priori). Having gone to all the bother of keeping my kids out of the grasp of religious orders, I promptly bought them an illustrated Bible and read them stories from it - I drag them to churches wherever we go and quiz them on the meaning of the iconography (although it should be noted I do this with every cave, tomb and fort too).  We also light candles in churches, leave offerings at shrines, apologise to the fairies for trespass, leave mince pies and whiskey for Santa, and observe the equinoxes and the solstices.

I take pride that the spawn of my atheism should be able to identify the Fall of Simon Magus on a High Cross, name the three Hebrews in the fiery furnace, distinguish the evangelists from their animal icons, recognise a palaeolithic tectiform when they see one, and explain how the Lia Fáil works.   

Much of all the human experience and endeavour there has ever been has found lasting expression through the forms of religion, folklore and spiritualism, and to be blind to it is to be ignorant of humanity.

There's also no better instruction in atheism than seeing the wonderful breadth of belief.

[Robin Low]

I'm wary of the idea that a committed Christian can dismiss those parts of the Bible that trouble them by saying "oh well, that part is simply metaphor, my child - didn't you know?", whilst still touting the parts they want me to believe as literal. Having one's cake and eating it, that is.

I like to tell them that the bible is not a set of instructions: it's a test. First proper story in the bible tells us three things: firstly, we have free will; secondly, we have knowledge of good and evil; thirdly, our choices have consequences. You're not gonna get into heaven by doing what the bible tells you. You'll get into heaven by distinguishing between the good and the bad, and choosing the good. It's staggering how many religious types haven't spotted this.

(Yeah, I'm sure folk can pull that apart, but I still kind like the idea and I'm sticking with it.)

Regards,

Robin

[Robin Low]

Much of all the human experience and endeavour there has ever been has found lasting expression through the forms of religion, folklore and spiritualism, and to be blind to it is to be ignorant of humanity.

Yup, and yup to the stuff I cut.

There's also no better instruction in atheism than seeing the wonderful breadth of belief.

Potentially, it can go the other way: "There must be something in it."


Regards,

Robin

[Funt Solo]

three things: firstly, we have free will; secondly, we have knowledge of good and evil; thirdly, our choices have consequences.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who disagreed with those. Where I fall off the cart is in attaching those to any holy teachings. To stay with the cart, it's being put before the horse. We know those things as humans, not as humans being taught how to behave by outside forces.

As for good behavior leading to the promise of a better second life - well, there's just no evidence for that at all. So I don't need to argue against it: it's clearly apparent as wishful thinking (in the best light) and a control mechanism (in the worst).

[IndigoPrime]

Given when it was written, though, the Bible is horribly sexist. Today, it deserves to be taught in historical context, but not as truth. And schooling should be strictly secular, not forcing a daily act of worship. FWIW, I've read the New Testament a few times, and so it's not like I'm ignorant to it. I'm also not blocking religion from my kid. But I am trying very hard to gently note these are very old stories, given that her school is inferring they were literal events. (Jesus did not die and come back to life because that is impossible. See also loads of other stuff in there. Believing otherwise is not an act of faith. It's an act of not recognising a massive game of Chinese Whispers, combined with half the Bible being based on older texts, and being very heavily edited for frankly not very altruistic reasons over the years. Heck, even Mary's virginity is almost certainly a basic mistranslation and that is a deeply important thing for some people.)

[Robin Low]

three things: firstly, we have free will; secondly, we have knowledge of good and evil; thirdly, our choices have consequences.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who disagreed with those. Where I fall off the cart is in attaching those to any holy teachings. To stay with the cart, it's being put before the horse. We know those things as humans, not as humans being taught how to behave by outside forces.

As for good behavior leading to the promise of a better second life - well, there's just no evidence for that at all. So I don't need to argue against it: it's clearly apparent as wishful thinking (in the best light) and a control mechanism (in the worst).

Not simply no evidence, but no possibility of evidence. Any hypothetical entity capable of creating a universe from scratch is also capable to covering up after itself. After all, offering proof of its existence would be an act of coercion, and that rather defeats the point of freedom of choice.

Regards,

Robin

[JayzusB.Christ]

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved, but... Why would a loving creator give us a choice whether to believe or not, when the wrong choice leads to eternal agony?

[Robin Low]

And schooling should be strictly secular, not forcing a daily act of worship.

I don't really see it as a problem - other people's experiences may differ, but I can't say I've ever met any Christians who are Christian because of school assemblies. People are Christians because they come from practising families or because they had some kind of spiritual awakening or because they were trying to get into a Christian girl's knickers or because (as in the case of one chap who knocked on my door when I was a uni) because it finally got him off heroin.

I hint to my spog that giants and dragons used to really exist, and they ask, "Really?" I reply, "Maybe." They'll work it out the reality of it in time, but in the meantime they can experience a little wonder.

Regards,

Robin