The fist in-costume picture of Jodie Whittaker's 13th Doctor has been released. I've got to say, I think she looks fucking cool.
https://twitter.com/DoctorWho_BBCA/status/928608999859281921/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbr.com%2Fdoctor-who-jodie-whittaker-costume%2F
There's more on the BBC website here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-41928500
I've been saying for a while that the show needed a good shake-up and I really hope this will mark a new beginning and something of a step up in quality.
For you;
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOMU7XFVQAEnJ5w.jpg)
Patrick Goddard tweeted a rather nice drawing of this he did for the costume designer, but I think someone at the Beeb has told him off and made him delete it!
I want to like it and I hope that the scriptwriters get their act together. Having not bothered with the most recent series, perhaps this is the shot in the arm it needed. BSG proved that it could work with gender recasting but Starbuck wasn't quite as high profile a character as Dr Who has become. While to wait mind.
A pity you didn't bother with the most recent series – apart from a couple of duff episodes, it felt like all-guns-blazing, to give everyone involved a properly good send off. It was easily my favourite run of nu-Who.
As for Whittaker, there's no reason she can't do well in the role. The key, as ever, will be the writing – and the script editing. The former's rarely been regularly bad from RTD onwards, but the latter has frequently been atrocious.
Ah, okay. I'll give it a go then. Sure it will pop up on box set or summit. Ta.
I thought last series got better as it went along. I didn't like the first couple of episodes at all but after that it seemed to improve.
Quote from: Goaty on 09 November, 2017, 03:03:10 PM
For you;
Little-known fact: In High Gallifreyan, 'Graham', 'Yasmin', and 'Ryan' translate as 'Humpty', 'Jemima', and 'Big Ted'.
(http://images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2014712/rs_634x1024-140812163621-634.mork-mindy-robin-williams.jpg)
I CAN'T UNSEE IT.
Apart from the obvious 'Nanoo nanoo' similarity, my first thought when I saw this earlier was that the stripes were a nod to Tom Baker's scarf. I like it.
Hmm. On closer inspection, I see the Doctor's left ear is pierced. Let the fan fiction commence!
Quote from: DaveGYNWA on 09 November, 2017, 07:59:11 PM
Apart from the obvious 'Nanoo nanoo' similarity
I CAN'T UNSEE IT.
Quote from: Goaty on 09 November, 2017, 06:28:26 PM
(http://images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2014712/rs_634x1024-140812163621-634.mork-mindy-robin-williams.jpg)
Once seen it can never be unseen.
Damnit that's lodged in my head now!
Yeah this change is getting the family Taylor to give Who another go having opted out for almost the entire Capaldi run.
Quote from: JamesC on 09 November, 2017, 02:30:49 PM
I've got to say, I think she looks fucking cool.
Snap! Stevie was all set to swear off Who again due to his Not Being A Chibnall Fan but the story possibilities inherent in the casting of Jodie Whittaker* & her looking the wirrn's knees here have won him back.
*ie The Doctor can no longer automatically assume a position of authority in most circumstances due to his being a white male. Brian Blessed is a dead cert for guest appearance as Henry VIII.
Mrs IP (Doctor Who fan) apparently unimpressed (despite being very happy with the casting): "Why have they dressed her up like a child?"
Personally, I think its an awful outfit.
A red nose away from Bobo the clown.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 10 November, 2017, 09:42:25 AM
Mrs IP (Doctor Who fan) apparently unimpressed (despite being very happy with the casting): "Why have they dressed her up like a child?"
You know what, that's what was bothering me about that pic. Thank you!
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 10 November, 2017, 09:42:25 AM
Mrs IP (Doctor Who fan) apparently unimpressed (despite being very happy with the casting): "Why have they dressed her up like a child?"
That's not how I saw it at all. It's a bit art studenty I guess.
I guess the braces and rainbows are seen as childish? Surely the long coat and
colottes trousers aren't?
Worth noting that this is probably only one of a rotating couple of outfits if the last few Doctors are anything to go by.
Quote from: Link Prime on 10 November, 2017, 09:46:35 AM
Personally, I think its an awful outfit.
A red nose away from Bobo the clown.
Radio Times letters page November 24th, 1966. Look at the second letter...
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/staticarchive/2cb1be043980be80c05c0b5df3c7bd1959740a9a.jpg)
The more things change...
The in-universe explanation is that she went to Sarah Jane Smith's old wardrobe....
I saw Geoffrey from Rainbow, others have said Mork, but I think my wife might ahve got closest when she said "Magpie"
Quote from: Leigh S on 10 November, 2017, 05:58:18 PM
I saw Geoffrey from Rainbow, others have said Mork, but I think my wife might ahve got closest when she said "Magpie"
None of which will mean anything to the target audience.
You mean 40 something men aren't the target audience?! :-\ :o ;)
Quote from: JLC on 10 November, 2017, 07:35:04 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 10 November, 2017, 05:58:18 PM
I saw Geoffrey from Rainbow, others have said Mork, but I think my wife might ahve got closest when she said "Magpie"
None of which will mean anything to the target audience.
I think you underestimate the target audience if you think they have no knowledge of glam rock era fashion, Robin Williams most iconic character, or retro kids shows.
Plus, do we really think Chris Chibnall, steeped as he is in loving at least one 70s TV show, would not have had similar thoughts (and indeed, possible intention to actively riff off the above)?
I'm not even saying it's necessarily a bad thing (a bit on the nose maybe for us "not in the target audience"), so no need to defend it to me
Quote from: JamesC on 10 November, 2017, 01:54:55 PM
=44906.msg973232#msg973232 date=1510306945]
the braces
Admit it chaps. You have
always prefered a Doctor dressed in suspenders.
(http://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/sylvester-mccoy-3.jpg)
(https://chicagorecorders.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/dr-who-recorder.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_PxBUU77Vdc/UclZas2sQ6I/AAAAAAAAP-g/-RTa7XpJx44/s1600/The+Ribos+Operation+pt1+braces.jpg)
(http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/mp/93WYYiu43EOx.jpg)
Quote from: O Lucky Stevie! on 17 November, 2017, 04:29:10 AM
(http://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/sylvester-mccoy-3.jpg)
Wasn't this taken shortly before the Doctor was arrested on Clapham Common?
Krusty's Klown Kollege aside, nothing was more wince inducing than Capaldi in that chav hoodie.
Suspenders means something else where I'm from. I'd call those braces.
Quote from: Daveycandlish on 10 November, 2017, 07:47:40 PM
You mean 40 something men aren't the target audience?! :-\ :o ;)
No. Its a kids show. Yes older viewers will watch it & are obviously the most vocal about it on social media & forums etc. But despite what they think their voice is NOT the most important one. IS NOT.
the way I perceive this is that the costuming is aiming for a nostalgic feel, whereby the colours and patterns evoke memories from the parents watching the show of doctors they watched in the past. This would then, in turn lead to increased recognition that this new actor is still 'the Doctor'.
The timing of the initial broadcast (presumably still going to be around the 6.15 slot) is, to me, aiming this at 'sitting and eating tea in front of the telly' people. Families hopefully.
If the BBC can get a younger group of kids watching then great, as it will help with the long term survival of the brand (after all- the majority of Mickey Mouse cartoons are created for a pre-school audience) and having parents watching too will only help.
I'm just hoping for decent plots- I've started watching the last season of Capaldi and I'm quite enjoying it so far.
A bit of consistency in start times would help. Doctor Who bounces all over the shop and they wonder why on-day viewing figures collapse, only allowing the show to be partially saved by catch-up/on-demand.
Off trots the best actor to have played the doctor (and boy was he great at dying over the last three epsoides) and a good old crash bang wallop start for the new one. Gold Star from me.
One line, just one line...and you know she IS the Doctor. :)
Very sad to see Capaldi go however, as I've found him to be my personal favourite of the new series Doctors.
I enjoyed that.
[spoiler] Is it wrong that the first thought that popped into my head when she pressed a button and the Tardis capsized was "women drivers, eh?" I'm really not sexist, and I understand it's a myth (women are generally far more careful drivers than men, on average), but my mind can be naughty sometimes in what it spits up and finds humorous.
Oh and the Doctor 'adjusting the time frame'. Is this something the Tardis has shown the capability of doing before? I would think the Doctor could have picked up the German soldier and deposited him and the British officer to the time period of the armistice with similar results. Maybe that's exactly what happened off-screen, but the general implications seemed to be that he edited the time line of that stand-off event from the Tardis console, starting with that good ol' yank of the lever.
I also noticed that the Doctor seemed to recognise the name of the officer, possibly affecting his decision to save him. I confess, I don't remember it, but I'm poor at remembering character names.
Oh and maybe the Doctor should find a wide open space to regenerate, if he is going to be blasting energy about. I'm not sure standing near advanced electronic equipment that allows you to bomb around time and space, is a good idea. No wonder the tardis can get temperamental.
[/spoiler]
I thoroughly enjoyed that.
Best Christmas episode for quiet a few years imo.
Thumbs up!
Grouch time!
I thought was OK, but all the usual problems of slow pacing and inward looking self congratulatory monoluging rather than plot.
It failed the wife and kids test by some margin. Elsie (9) was very excited to watch it with dad, but walked off - Joe (12) has no interest in watching it, despite being a Potter fan and currently reading Charley's War!) - Clare (wife) complained it was "for the fans" - she defends RTD era Who as very watchable, and I'll give her that - be careful what you wish for I suppose, as Moffatt has only intermittently reached the heights I hopedd, preferring to squander interesting ideas ("Hey it's an interesting idea, I have to DO something with it???")
Firsst Doctor is sexist chump - great. One or two jokes to that effect, fine (s long as you don;t labour them as here), but lose/cut the tell dont show of Capaldi's fan serving "never cruel or cowardly" speech and beef up the reason for the Firsts appearance and dilemma....
This "I don;t want to die/go" stuff, where the back room movements in the show become meta on the screen.... It isn't inherently bad, but when it is so blatant... we get you are leaving Moffatt, and you don't want to. We get that you think Doctor Who CAN be a fairytale, and are using the old Doctor to represent the "mingmongs" who won't buy into moon/egg shenanigans and are probably really, like, sexist and stuff (in 50 years time, will we have Doctor 25 calling out Tennant and Smith for their "shagging across time" and porn loving Ladisms?)
On Chris Evans radio show the other day, the producer was leaving, so they had about 10 minutes of backroom people talking about how great she was... it was excruciating radio (well, more so than usual for Evans) and shoed no self awareness that there is an audience tuning into to this that has no interest in.
Which is a shame as the basic "ideas" were interesting, as is generally the case.
Well not watched Who for a couple of years but Jodie Whittaker has got me to try it again AND the kids are old enough AND my daughter is interested in a woman being The Doctor, so we were in and positive...
... I thought it was pretty good, but did suffer from being a little self absorbed and self referencial. It once again (one of my main beefs with the show) got a bit too distracted by now 'smart' it was and seemed to forget to be an hour of fun telly at the same time (so many things manage it).
Worse though the kids (6 and 8) found it pretty boring and didn't really buy in. They are still up for next series but over all this one wasn't for them. They did stick it out and asked what I considered all the right questions, but they just found it a bit dull.
Interestingly my daughter (8) thought the first Doctor's control room was way cooler than the current one!
I really enjoyed that. Best of the Xmas specials by a long way I think.
Interestingly, given some of the views on this forum, The Times reviewer today gave it a thumbs up but mainly because it was easy to follow and was not self referencial.
Was a moving episode. A meditation on life and death. Found it not really to be self contained at all. Needed some knowledge of the Capaldi era, re his companions and the Dalek from Journey to the Centre of the Dalek.
Capaldi went out on a high note. Sad to see him leave, and would have loved to have seen another year from him under the new regime.
Bill Bradley was fantastic as the first Doctor. I wish the BBC would strike while the iron is relatively hot, and remake the missing stories from the first Doctor with Bill in the role. Would be better much better than the animation they're using with Shada and Power of the Daleks.
Jodie, didn't really get to make much of an impression. Ending in a cliffhanger, TARDIS is gone, and the Doctor is falling from a rather great height. Certainly will have me watching again.
Great setting for the story, loved the sets and overall design. However, like much of the Moffat era it was a bit of mess if one didn't give the story their full attention. Which there is nothing wrong with that demand, only it's Doctor Who and catering to a large audience isn't a bad thing, neither is writing 'up' but I think that is where the program may well have been losing an audience. Moffat was better as a writer than show runner.
Quote from: Mardroid on 26 December, 2017, 02:58:08 AM
I enjoyed that.
[spoiler] I also noticed that the Doctor seemed to recognise the name of the officer, possibly affecting his decision to save him. I confess, I don't remember it, but I'm poor at remembering character names.
[/spoiler]
It was [spoiler]Brigadier Lethbridge Stewart's Grandfather.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 26 December, 2017, 12:35:49 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 26 December, 2017, 02:58:08 AM
I enjoyed that.
[spoiler] I also noticed that the Doctor seemed to recognise the name of the officer, possibly affecting his decision to save him. I confess, I don't remember it, but I'm poor at remembering character names.
[/spoiler]
It was [spoiler]Brigadier Lethbridge Stewart's Grandfather.[/spoiler]
Thanks Taryn. I thought it might be something like that. I haven't watched much old Who so, while I'm aware of a character called The Brigadier I didn't know his actual name.
I really enjoyed that overall. Bradley and Gatiss stole it I think. I wish they'd reshoot the First Doctor episodes with Bradley. That would be something.
I just thought that the Doctor's speech to himself was a little overlong and needless. High marks all around for this Christmas episode.
I assumed the sexism of the original Doctor wasn't meant as a reference to supposedly non-progressive fans, as since the RTD era, Who show runners have made it quite clear they don't care what the fanbase thinks. If this was meant as a jab at them, it would make Moffat quite reactive.
Overall, I found that a bit boring. Say what you will about Chibnall, but he's a shameless populist, and that may be what the show needs to inject a bit of life into it now, as it's been getting a bit mawkish and cloying. As long as we don't have to sit through some sort of "I've lost me memry an 'ave terr lives as a hooman" story or something shite like that right out of the gate, I'll give the new show a gander when they finally get around to filming all the episodes.
I thought it was fine. Probably could have done with a few hours less of speech at the end (the show still desperately needs a script editor that the showrunner has to cede script control to), and that last sting of Moffat sexism to round things off (HAHAHAH WOMEN CAN'T DRIVE! Oh do fuck off).
Other than that, it was fine, for me not really a patch on the otherwise really solid last series, good to for once see a 'foe' that's not evil, and had some great work from Gatiss and – some iffy scripting aside – Bradley.
Bastard of a cliffhanger though. I do hope that one was agree with Chibnall, because otherwise that's a bugger to deal with as an incoming writer.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 26 December, 2017, 04:20:00 PM
and that last sting of Moffat sexism to round things off (HAHAHAH WOMEN CAN'T DRIVE! Oh do fuck off).
Bastard of a cliffhanger though. I do hope that one was agree with Chibnall, because otherwise that's a bugger to deal with as an incoming writer.
(https://i.imgur.com/bBYNvjd.jpg)
filippo
In which case consider my optimism merrily smacked back.
The "let's regenerate in the TARDIS mid flight" thing is very odd - Again,, I presume this is a production thing because they want to renew the console room, but from a plot and character point of view, it's nonsense.
New Doctor Who has been very aware of the fanes no matter how much it might protest, from the RTD days onwards "Slitheen/Levine" and "Love and Monsters" as the big example - many a chance to dig a rib in has been taken. You could argue justifiably in many cases, and it might fly over the head of casual viewer, but it's there and I can't see a better explanation for characterising the First Doctor as narrow/small minded except fo the lolz?
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 26 December, 2017, 04:20:00 PM
and that last sting of Moffat sexism to round things off (HAHAHAH WOMEN CAN'T DRIVE! Oh do fuck off).
Capaldi's Doctor completely forgot how to pilot the TARDIS after regenerating. Smith's Doctor crashed the TARDIS after regenerating.
Whittaker's Doctor presses a single button, (probably the correct button), and "MULTIPLE SYSTEMS FAILURE" flashes up on a screen, the TARDIS goes mental and cracks appear along the uppydown bit of the console, likely due to damage caused by the regeneration energy shooting out all over the place a few seconds beforehand.
Sod all wrong with her driving.
Will the Doctor spend her first few adventures Earthbound trying to get her Tardis back? I assume she survives the fall, meets her erstwhile Companions en route who will help/hinder her before she reunites with the Tardis and Galactic adventure ensues. The Doctor will have to slum it on Public Transport just like us poor humans and the 'no Tardis for a bit' rule might give the writers ideas for more Earth-based storylines which are usually cheaper to make.
Enjoyed that but could have done without the second hour of Capaldi's farewell speech.
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 26 December, 2017, 07:03:50 PM
Will the Doctor spend her first few adventures Earthbound trying to get her Tardis back? I assume she survives the fall, meets her erstwhile Companions en route who will help/hinder her before she reunites with the Tardis and Galactic adventure ensues. The Doctor will have to slum it on Public Transport just like us poor humans and the 'no Tardis for a bit' rule might give the writers ideas for more Earth-based storylines which are usually cheaper to make.
Well I know there's an episode set in Sheffield and some of it was shot in the bus station - just down from my office (well we're on the tenth floor), we were all of a titter, but saw nowt.
So you might be closer than you think and it would certainly give for an interesting premise to start off with.
There was an interview with Chris Chibnall in which he stated that he hadn't expected the BBC to agree to the plan he had for changing the series format going forward, but that they did, so I can certainly imagine the potential for perhaps as much as a whole series spent trapped on Earth, perhaps even as a single extended serial. If such an arc took place over a good number of years, this could explain why there are as many as three new companions lined up for the new series, with only one of them appearing during a given time period?(Something the old Eighth Doctor books actually did for a good half dozen novels.)
Quote from: M.I.K. on 26 December, 2017, 06:35:20 PMWhittaker's Doctor presses a single button, (probably the correct button), and "MULTIPLE SYSTEMS FAILURE" flashes up on a screen, the TARDIS goes mental and cracks appear along the uppydown bit of the console, likely due to damage caused by the regeneration energy shooting out all over the place a few seconds beforehand.
Sod all wrong with her driving.
Intentional or not, the connotations of such a scene are obvious, as evidenced by the rampant comments barreling around the internet. I hope she'll be brilliant, and I hope Chibnall injects something new and exciting into a show that's too often become tiresome under Moffat. (I liked the last series a lot, but with someone like Capaldi, it shouldn't have taken that long to get him into a watchable space.)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 27 December, 2017, 11:29:06 AM
Quote from: M.I.K. on 26 December, 2017, 06:35:20 PMWhittaker's Doctor presses a single button, (probably the correct button), and "MULTIPLE SYSTEMS FAILURE" flashes up on a screen, the TARDIS goes mental and cracks appear along the uppydown bit of the console, likely due to damage caused by the regeneration energy shooting out all over the place a few seconds beforehand.
Sod all wrong with her driving.
Intentional or not, the connotations of such a scene are obvious, as evidenced by the rampant comments barreling around the internet. I hope she'll be brilliant, and I hope Chibnall injects something new and exciting into a show that's too often become tiresome under Moffat. (I liked the last series a lot, but with someone like Capaldi, it shouldn't have taken that long to get him into a watchable space.)
The connotations did cross my mind too - Interesting about Smith and Capaldi, but I don't remember their very first actions being to 'crash' the TARDIS. Remains to be seen whether the button push is justified in the next series, though I doubt it will be (if they needed to get the Doctor away from the ship, it could have been done better).
Is there any possibility that the new Doctor is in fact the Tardis itself, which is traditionally shown to have a female personality and she has simply transferred herself into the doctor's new regeneration? Just a wild guess of mine!
Crashing is precisely what their first actions were subsequent to complaining about their hair/kidney colour. They even both use the word "crashing", with Capaldi then going on to ask Clara "do you happen to know how to fly this thing?". It's the cliffhanger at the end of both episodes.
Moreover, after the majority of regenerations, the Doctor has acted erratically and muddled for a while before his brain settles down a bit. If this Doctor has pressed the wrong button it'd be entirely consistent with the confused state he/she usually finds themself in. Though I don't think that's what's happened. Who puts a blowupeverything crashy button in the middle of a load of other identical buttons?
Re : TARDIS regenerating into the Doctor theory... Personally don't think so, but it did occur to me that it almost looked like the TARDIS was intentionally chucking her out, which could be read as the TARDIS not being entirely happy with the gender change, but could also be interpreted as the TARDIS attempting to save the Doctor's life because she, (The TARDIS), knew a particularly big internal explosion was about to happen and that Timelords are a bit more resilient immediately after regenerating and that the Doctor's more likely to survive a fall than a fireball.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 26 December, 2017, 04:20:00 PM
that last sting of Moffat sexism
Genuine question- was Moffat's stint on Dr. Who generally perceived to be sexist?
I didn't mind it, I have only two complaints.
1) It wasn't as good as Day of the Doctor.
2) It was another missed opportunity to bring Paul McGann back (actually several missed opportunities).
Quote from: Link Prime on 27 December, 2017, 01:29:50 PM
Genuine question- was Moffat's stint on Dr. Who generally perceived to be sexist?
I fear that this has become accepted wisdom, and this has led to somewhat ridiculous assertions, such as that a scene that Moffat didn't write or have any control over - a scene that shows The Doctor regenerate into a woman, by the way, after years of Moffat patiently building up to it - is conclusive evidence that Moffat is a misogynistic bastard.
My view is that he's not sexist, but that he did fail as a showrunner to write to the consistently high standard he set for himself during the RTD era.
I found Moffatt's female characters by and large, not so much sexist, but suspect... Certainly they seem product of a male mind with a good chunk of male gaze thrown in - Bill was pretty refreshing in this regard, and I think that (and Nardole) really boosted the final season.
I had high hopes for the finale - if you squint and think of Capaldi as the last of the old Doctors (I kniw, two Tennants or somesuch nonsense!), then him meetng his first incarnation and having a similar dilemma about entering an unknown equation would have worked wonders
Instead, we got First Doctor doing a "what's wrong with being sexy?" "stop that fairytale nonsense" Moffatt critic proxy. Bradley is very stilted and doesnt have any of Hartnells impishness. I hoped that this would give Hartnell a more rousing send off than he got in the original series, where he just wears a bit thin, doesnt do much in the story and falls over. But watch the Tenth Planet, then watch this - is it a more fitting send off for Hartnell, as this is ultimately what this has become continuity wise?
It's a massive shame, as there were interesting avenues to explore for the characters, but we spent it exploring the avenues of the writers ego instead
The first line from the new doctor worryingly reminded me of this!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv_662IqKto
:-\
Overall I thought it was pretty good. David Bradley made an excellent story. I'd also like to see them remake the missing episodes with him, but of course they won't, it would cost too much.
I liked Mark Gatiss, and the ending for his character. The [spoiler]1914 Christmas ceasefire [/spoiler] was a brilliant idea for a Christmas episode and it worked really well. I thought his character should have been more pro-active though; all he actually did was get attacked by a dalek and need to be rescued. The dalek could have attacked one of the doctors and then Gatiss could have shot it.
The only let-down for me was Jodie Whittaker falling out of the Tardis, which is just what Matt Smith did in his first appearance. Someone should have vetoed that.
Finally,
QuoteCertainly they seem product of a male mind ...
Well, yes, Moffat is male. Should men not attempt to write female characters then?
Quote from: Richard on 28 December, 2017, 08:26:08 PM
Finally, QuoteCertainly they seem product of a male mind ...
Well, yes, Moffat is male. Should men not attempt to write female characters then?
I'd be happy if jsut Moffatt attempted it to be honest!
His women are "sexy and they know it", they wear tight, short skirts and fancy themselves soemthing rotten (especially if confronted by a clone/alternate dimension version of themselves) - they are hyper competent and brook no nonsense. They will turn you on as they gun down that alien threat, depsite your previous aversion to violence as a solution....
so yeah, product of a male's mind, rather than character's written distinctly as female, or even human at times- Bill in this regard was to be fair a massive leap forward, but Clara, Amy and River are very much from similar hyper competent and idealised cloth
I'm aware this makes me sound like some kind of mental Mens Rights Activist, but compare RTD companions (and other characters such as Rose's mom or Harriett Jones) and they are just that much more interesting - I find the Godlike Doctor pretty drama draining too
Leigh: you missed (pre Bill) Moffat's leading women also being a puzzle to be solved rather than existing in their own right as characters. That gold old fast.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 December, 2017, 08:53:37 PM
Leigh: you missed (pre Bill) Moffat's leading women also being a puzzle to be solved rather than existing in their own right as characters. That gold old fast.
"Some might say that women ARE a puzzle to be solved..." First Doctor, no episode ever
Quote from: Richard on 28 December, 2017, 08:26:08 PM
The only let-down for me was Jodie Whittaker falling out of the Tardis, which is just what Matt Smith did in his first appearance. Someone should have vetoed that.
Matt Smith fell out but hung on to the TARDIS & got back in it. This is not what happened to Jodie.
It's still similar enough that it shouldn't have happened twice.
Imagine the internet meltdown if she dies from the fall and regenerates into a male again. Ouch!
Joking aside, I'm interested to see how she does in the role.
I dunno lads, aside from the very enjoyable First Doctor/Bradley banter, the always watchable Capaldi and Mackie and some fine battlefield visuals, this seemed to just be the usual over-long over-emotional drawn-out tosh with added in-story montages of past characters, like a second and third curtain call that no-one asked for.
I haven't watched much Dr Who over the past few years, so maybe there was a huge payoff here that I was missing, but from where I was sitting (watching a repeat in the wee small hours), it was exactly the kind of 'I am the Doctor and I have LIVED and DIED and HOPED and DESPAIRED and GENERALLY EMOTED and THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING YOU, AND ESPECIALLY ME FOR BEING ME' for scene after scene that leads me to bailing on any given series after the second episode.
I must make time to watch the rest of the Capaldi years, he does hold the screen brilliantly, but from this snippet it looks like very little else changed. Even the regeneration and intro of the 13th Doctor looked exactly like all the others, bar the obvious.
Quote from: TordelBack on 30 December, 2017, 05:43:18 PM
'I am the Doctor and I have LIVED and DIED and HOPED and DESPAIRED and GENERALLY EMOTED and THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING YOU, AND ESPECIALLY ME FOR BEING ME' for scene after scene
Couldn't agree more. I guess some people must like this stuff, but it's hard to understand why.
On the plus side, I really liked the Doctor and Bill last series, and was sorry that they were leaving so soon. But after watching this, I've had enough of them and can move on happily.
Also, a story would have been nice. And, having
just made a bunch of gorgeous Tenth Planet cyberman costumes, why wouldn't you use them?
Thought Jodie Whittaker looked fantastic, just from a few seconds. Seemed fresh and fun. Just please no more speeches!
Quote from: TordelBack on 30 December, 2017, 05:43:18 PM'I am the Doctor and I have LIVED and DIED and HOPED and DESPAIRED and GENERALLY EMOTED and THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING YOU, AND ESPECIALLY ME FOR BEING ME' for scene after scene that leads me to bailing on any given series after the second episode.
Especially odd when you have a great actor like Capaldi who could do this with a couple of looks to camera and companions.
Ps: some lasses may also be watching.
Quite. Capaldi was again wasted with that overblown nonsense. It would have been far more effective had this bit been much, much shorter, with him giving a single line that summed up his realisation about what it means to be The Doctor, before bursting into the regeneration sequence. (As for Bill, she was great, but her story is done. And that last series felt like all guns blazing to give those involved a good send-off. You wonder whether it would have happened had they all been signed up for another series. I kind of doubt it.)
As for Jodie Whittaker, the loss of the TARDIS will make for a decidedly different series, but I hope she gets some decent people writing for her (and – unlikely, I know – some strong script editing). Whatever happens, you can bet the internet will be full of idiot man-babies screaming: SEE? WE TOLD YOU IT WOULD BE RUBBISH WITH A GIRL! (Natch, actual girls will likely be jumping for joy that, for once, the hero of the hour is a woman.)
On a rewatch I'd have to agree that last speech was overblown- "never be cruel, never be cowardly. Hate is always foolish and love is always wise" That's a pretty damn good line but it should have been left there.
And is there much point giving a speech to yourself during a process which means you may not even remember your own name? ;)
I'm optimistically looking forward to JW, her two word intro was charming
New effects house announced for the next series.
https://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/bbc/double-negative-lands-doctor-who-vfx/5126684.article (https://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/bbc/double-negative-lands-doctor-who-vfx/5126684.article)
Also a revamp for in terms of cameras and lenses.
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-12-02/the-next-series-of-doctor-who-starring-jodie-whittaker-will-get-a-whole-new-cinematic-look/ (http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-12-02/the-next-series-of-doctor-who-starring-jodie-whittaker-will-get-a-whole-new-cinematic-look/)
More significently they were filming outside our office the other day... well we could see the filming from our office window in Sheffield. It was a bit off but we're high up and look onto Park Hill Flats where the Tardis was sat all day. There's a load of close up photos of the filming, but it was all the buzz in the office.
Did you offer to stunt double?
Alas there was no need for Sheffield's finest hand and foot double! Missed a trick there the fools.
Today, 3pm! Trailer for the new series!
OK... as disappointing as the last series turned out to be, this all looks fairly promising.
TRAILER. (https://youtu.be/lIz50Iu-_Zs)
I hope they use Stephen Fry and Lenny Henry well and don't waste the opportunity.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 23 November, 2019, 03:10:39 PM
OK... as disappointing as the last series turned out to be, this all looks fairly promising.
TRAILER. (https://youtu.be/lIz50Iu-_Zs)
It certainly looks like it could be fun, and I'm glad they haven't shrunk the team down.
Kinda glad to see Lenny Henry in there. I wouldn't mind seeing him as the first black Doctor, but I've always wanted him to play it as Deakus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtMBXuXOBP4
Evenin', evenin', evenin'. My name is... ahm... ... ... ... the Doctor.Regards,
Robin
Oh man: it's already happened (https://youtu.be/A9zmbGhpD4E)!
Quote from: Funt Solo on 23 November, 2019, 05:47:02 PM
Oh man: it's already happened (https://youtu.be/A9zmbGhpD4E)!
I really like the idea of Shaft in a Rupert Bear costume, but I'm still holding out for an elderly Jamaican.
Regards,
Robin
Such a lot going on hard to feel any which way about it. Still will be very excited when we have it back.
Well, a spooky if an enjoyable return for the Doctor and an arch-nemesis. How will they survive the [spoiler]old crashing plane I[/spoiler]'ve no idea but I'll be watching on Sunday to find out.
Ooh. Enjoyed that. Good opening, fun guest stars, then that and that happening. Looking forward to where it goes next.
Kids loved it and were suitably terrified at the glowy aliens attacking the house in the outback bit.
Me I thought it was good, then terrible, then redemned by an excellent ending.
The big problem was even though the words worst glamorous party and worst James Bond action sequence ever all made sense when you knew it was all [spoiler]a plot by the Master [/spoiler] and you could hand wave it as such at the end. At the point you where watching this James Bond parody it just looked dreadful and was pretty bloomin' awful. The chase sequence completely lacked credability and thus tension.
Still that ending hey! Wow that was good.
Overall nice to have it back.
Yes, I right enjoyed that despite any James Bond parody being intrinsically naff.
The chase was spectacularly stupid... it ended and everyone seemed to forget they had just been in a chase.
But that aside, it was great, daft fun and unashamedly family viewing.
I thought it was fun, if a bit long. As for the reveal, I'll be interested to see if they address how that's actually even possible. (Not that it really matters in Doctor Who, obv.)
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 02 January, 2020, 11:49:16 AM
The chase was spectacularly stupid... it ended and everyone seemed to forget they had just been in a chase.
Worst chase scene ever.
The last five minutes pulled the episode out of its arse. I can't wait to see what happens on Sunday.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 02 January, 2020, 11:49:16 AM
The chase was spectacularly stupid... it ended and everyone seemed to forget they had just been in a chase.
You wanted them to stand around saying "wow, that was some chase we were just in!"? Okay it wasn't Bourne/Bond in it's thrillpower, but it made sense - They chased him to his private airport and then followed him onto the plane - what's the problem?
I thoroughly enjoyed it, it had more menace, mystery and the Doctor actually
doing things than the whole of the first series. I've got some ideas about the reveal and the line [spoiler]"everything you know is a lie" - these aren't alien invaders but the doctor and companions from an alternate univese - when that one came into the farmhouse and was captured it was clearly somebody (the Doctor?) in a spacesuit, hence the reason it 'rescued' Yas.[/spoiler]
Good start, I'm encouraged that they've ironed out some of the faults of S:1.
I didn't enjoy that episode but I still quite like Jodie Whittaker as The Doctor. She went full-on Su Pollard as Gladys a couple of times in this episode though. I kept expecting her to talk about Miss Cathcart.
Bradley Walsh is still the best thing in it. Lenny Henry was pretty good. Yaz is less annoying than she has been in the past.
I've never liked [spoiler]any nu-Who iteration of The Master though. Intead of exuding the cold menace of Master's past there's always a load of wild gesticulating, clapping, silly voices and general bellend-ness.[/spoiler]
Quote from: JamesC on 03 January, 2020, 03:06:52 PM
I've never liked [spoiler]any nu-Who iteration of The Master though. Intead of exuding the cold menace of Master's past there's always a load of wild gesticulating, clapping, silly voices and general bellend-ness.[/spoiler]
I always thought [spoiler]Missy captured some of that coldness and ruthlessness, which was probably last seen from the Master in The Keeper of Traken, and Logopolis. Plus also Derek Jacobi, when we got the reveal that he was the Master, did a star turn at being an evil arsehole.[/spoiler]
As for Whittaker, she's fast becoming my second or third favourite Doctor of all time.
What are Lenny Henry and Paul Rudd injecting into their eyeballs, in order to age backwards?
Oh that was a shame.
Thought that was pretty poor. By the end it made sense - kinda - but up to that point it was lots of discontected stuff jammed together with the tease of a clever way to pull it all together but no sense of a thread or threat to make it feel worth the wait...
... which the end wasn't either.
And there were bits that just amde me cringe.
Mm. Weaker than part one. A bit flabby. Rather than cramming an hour into 40 minutes, it felt like 40 minutes stretched out. Still: an interesting reveal, perhaps. Here's hoping the series can finally get a handle on what and who this Doctor is.
Lenny Henry's apparent discovery of the fountain of youth (and solid performance) aside, I though this story was slow, disjointed and generally a bit rubbish. A series of 'cool' set-pieces that were barely strung together into a story, and another wasted outing for [spoiler]the Master[/spoiler].
Despite being somewhat lampshaded, Graham's relentless stating of the bleeding obvious and general griping about every course of action left me disliking the character for the very first time. I also struggled to understand what the Doctor was up to half the time (e.g.: having just seen Stephen Fry's character being zapped in the middle of Vauxhall, survived a hail of laser blasts herself and run away from invisible/phasing baddies, she quickly agrees to leave the two Ozzer cops protecting O's shack by peering vaguely into the dark armed with handguns: in effect leaving them to die).
A very weak two parter to kick off the series.
I still hold out hope though - the cast is pretty strong and I quite like some of Chibnall's ideas even though his scripts are a bit crap.
I didn't like the Bill and Ted resolution for the plane and somehow it simultaneously felt pretty thin and with too much jammed in. It just wasn't particularly compelling (a problem with last season) until the very last minute. I dunno if I can justify carrying on watching it other than out of a sense of obligation.
Too many ideas, distractions, and contradictions for the plot to be very successful. Keeping the Doctor confused meant that the evil master plan was revealed way too late. I liked the idea that the aliens were themselves portals into their own realm. Very cool. However what they actually wanted, and whether they were all in on it, is muddy.
I think the blueprint for modern Who has been well established here, with big set pieces and zany zippidy-doo-dah skips through time. I am okay with it, mostly because JW's Doctor is so watchable. I enjoyed her first serious intersections with Whovian lore -- a good payoff for keeping that on the periphery in her first year. And having the Doctor actually visit Gallifrey to confirm the Master's story rather than doing it off-screen or pushing it back to the series finale was a welcome change (also a good take on the Master, IMO).
Same old, same old, with Doctor Who and much modern telly: a desperate lack of decent script editors with the power to make major changes. For Who specifically, that's been true right from RTD's first series.
The tone seemed a bit strange to me.
They seemed to be courting younger viewers with the lame slapstick comedy (laser shoes) but then other sections were very slow and talky.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 06 January, 2020, 10:49:42 PM
I didn't like the Bill and Ted resolution for the plane and somehow it simultaneously felt pretty thin and with too much jammed in. It just wasn't particularly compelling (a problem with last season) until the very last minute. I dunno if I can justify carrying on watching it other than out of a sense of obligation.
Thank you for echoing my thoughts exactly. What made it worse was how banal they made it. Bill & Ted would call it bogus.
The only thing that really caught my interest in this episode was the Gallifrey references. I can see the series will revolve around what happened there and what the Doctor is going to do about it. I only hope they can make it interesting enough to make it worth the effort to watch.
I wish they'd just bring Gallifrey back properly.
Surely a powerful Time Lord society which may take an interest in The Doctor's activity offers more story opportunities than the 'last Time Lord' angle.
Quote from: JamesC on 07 January, 2020, 02:53:40 PM
I wish they'd just bring Gallifrey back properly.
Surely a powerful Time Lord society which may take an interest in The Doctor's activity offers more story opportunities than the 'last Time Lord' angle.
Seconded. The Doctor as rogue/overly-involved Timelord bending the rules is so much more appealing than Only Timelord in the Whole Universe Who Alone Can Save It. I had always assumed this was a temporary situation used to simplify the re-introduction of the character and give him some kind of clear direction/motivation, but not unlike the TARDIS' chameleon circuit the Doctor seems to have become stuck in Lonely God mode.
Although this is hardly my biggest issue with the show, nor is it a change that'd fix its problems. A bit of tight writing is what's needed above all else.
I'm enjoying Season 12 so far!
That is my in depth analysis, I will not be taking questions, good day.
Well ... er... I mean you could see what they were going for ... they tried for old school Who... looked like it at times too! And like they left us in absolutely no doubt of the theme AS. THEY. SHOUTED. IT. STRAIGHT. IN. OUR. FACES...
...so who needs a sensible plot, decent character with even half formed motivations and stuff like that.
Least Graham was a bit more on form this time.
Well that was a badly edited dog's dinner! :o :thumbsdown:
Quote from: dweezil2 on 12 January, 2020, 09:16:27 PM
Well that was a badly edited dog's dinner! :o :thumbsdown:
You know, this was my thought too - some nice shots (on a budget) but man alive that editing was not good.
-PJ
Do you think there was a whole subplot about Benni (and other guests) transforming into Dregs?
Plus, I always thought Dr. Who just travelled in time. Not to altetnate timelines. Or have I had it wrong all along?
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 12 January, 2020, 09:27:32 PM
Plus, I always thought Dr. Who just travelled in time. Not to altetnate timelines. Or have I had it wrong all along?
There is a precedent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyEuIcF5yQ4) for that kind of thing.
Not quite a precedent, as that is the Doctor finding himself in an alternate Dimension, not an alternate timeline.
They basically Dr Who 60s Annualled it to make the point they wanted to make, which seems...very odd.
Quote from: M.I.K. on 12 January, 2020, 09:42:39 PM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 12 January, 2020, 09:27:32 PM
Plus, I always thought Dr. Who just travelled in time. Not to altetnate timelines. Or have I had it wrong all along?
There is a precedent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyEuIcF5yQ4) for that kind of thing.
There was a precedent set in "Pyramids Of Mars" when the Doctor showed Sarah Jane what the Earth in 1980 would look like if they left it to Sutekh's mercy.
Quote from: Leigh S on 12 January, 2020, 09:45:32 PM
Not quite a precedent, as that is the Doctor finding himself in an alternate Dimension, not an alternate timeline.
Depending on which theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation)you go with, it could be argued that it's basically the same thing. I think he says somewhere in the episode that he got there by moving "sideways through time".
yeah, Pyramids of Mars is an apt comparison, though that was put in to show why the Doctor had to get involved - if they knew the future was safe having travelled (and come from there), why bother...? so the question should really have been bigger here - what has been done (or the Doctor NOT done) for that to be the future? They could ahve made something of that - instead, it does contradict the way time travel is (99% of the time) used in the show
Another example I can think of might be the Space Museum? But the show has been surprisingly consistent for something running 50 plus years over multiple production teams, especially the first 20 when they did not care about what had gone before
But he is clearly shocked at finding himself there - normal time travel does not result in differing outcomes for the future, and if anything, Inferno supports a 4 dimensional solid version of the Doctor's exploits.
The scene in Pyramids does contradict that to be fair, though it is there to up the peril for kids who might ahve had the same thought as Sarah does, even if raises more questions than it answers!
Quote from: Leigh S on 12 January, 2020, 10:06:14 PM
yeah, Pyramids of Mars is an apt comparison, though that was put in to show why the Doctor had to get involved - if they knew the future was safe having travelled (and come from there), why bother...? so the question should really have been bigger here - what has been done (or the Doctor NOT done) for that to be the future? They could ahve made something of that - instead, it does contradict the way time travel is (99% of the time) used in the show
Another example I can think of might be the Space Museum? But the show has been surprisingly consistent for something running 50 plus years over multiple production teams, especially the first 20 when they did not care about what had gone before
That was awful. Mrs IP's review was "that was fucking stupid", along with "what's with all the self-sacrificing?"
We just watched an episode of The Expanse to wash away the taste. I sincerely hope things improve, because that's a third of the series done and we've had one good/promising episode, one messy disappointment and one steaming turd.
As I've seen others point out, if [spoiler]the death of Earth is just one possible timeline, then so is the death of Gallifrey from the end of last weeks,[/spoiler] so no problem?
Although that plot point of course goes against basic Doctor Who lore. Then again, Chibnall doesn't care about that, nor SF. Quite what he's doing show-running Who, I've no idea.
Hasn't it sometimes been said that time can be rewritten? Like some moments are fixed solid, but others are more fluid and can change the course of history or the future...
I'm not saying that's a sound argument, but it's been addressed before...
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 12 January, 2020, 09:27:32 PM
Do you think there was a whole subplot about Benni (and other guests) transforming into Dregs?
I certainly thought it was leading that way and seemed to drop off the map. All we're left with concerning Benni is what Kane said.... which just didn't seem right?!?
Edited to add - even the kids said ' It wasn't the best one'
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 13 January, 2020, 06:24:48 AM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 12 January, 2020, 09:27:32 PM
Do you think there was a whole subplot about Benni (and other guests) transforming into Dregs?
I certainly thought it was leading that way and seemed to drop off the map. All we're left with concerning Benni is what Kane said.... which just didn't seem right?!?
It seemed like that was probably the way it played out in an earlier draft of the script, but it also felt weirdly like that was the draft they started filming before changing their minds halfway through.
It was so cack that I turned it off halfway through in favour of doing the washing up.
There seems to be an "oh, that will do, no one will notice" attitude to DW writing right now. Like they can drop a whole sub-plot and not bother tidying up.
Anyway. I thought that was terrible.
Awful.
Awful awful awful. Writing. Direction. Editing. Terrible. And while I agree with the writers that the time for subtlety on climate change is long gone, sci-fi is the province of metaphor; if you want to do it with a sledgehammer, just have the f**king Doctor speak directly into camera and be done with it.
And next week yet *another* 'famous face from history' episode..
Do better, Chibnall. You have it in you.
I'm not sure he does. Or at least not for Doctor Who. It's not like his prior episodes were any good, and he appears to have an actual disdain for the genre. As for last night's turd, it felt like a rough draft no-one had bothered to work on. The reveal was hackneyed and could have been delivered in any number of other ways. (For example, rather than [spoiler]Earth, have the planet just be an alien one, but The Doctor say in a suitably chilling manner "and they used to be just like you – a civilisation at the top of their game, but they threw it all away".[/spoiler] Then you don't derail Who lore into the bargain, but you still get your point across. Not that this change would save the episode, mind.
There was something nigglingly familiar about the [spoiler]Earth[/spoiler] reveal, and not just in a [spoiler]Beneath The Planet of The Apes[/spoiler] type way. Then I remembered this from the Colin Baker era...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am1UTTINVwM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am1UTTINVwM)
I've always took that to mean something akin to Strontium Dog time travel logic - you can create ripples that affect the surface event, but key events have to happen - I'd say wiping out the most important planet before it even gets into space from the look of the Dreg mindreading sequence, would be pretty time altering!
If you were graham et al, wouldnt you insist on immeidately going to the future to check the Doctor's story was in fact the case?
Quote from: Andy Lambert on 12 January, 2020, 11:23:31 PM
Hasn't it sometimes been said that time can be rewritten? Like some moments are fixed solid, but others are more fluid and can change the course of history or the future...
I'm not saying that's a sound argument, but it's been addressed before...
B
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 13 January, 2020, 09:58:55 AM
The reveal was hackneyed and could have been delivered in any number of other ways. (For example, rather than [spoiler]Earth, have the planet just be an alien one, but The Doctor say in a suitably chilling manner "and they used to be just like you – a civilisation at the top of their game, but they threw it all away".
But the whole point for us, the viewer, is that [spoiler]it's our earth[/spoiler]. Take that out and you might as well throw the whole episode away. I only wish they'd ran it December 11th
(And honestly they already did that, by introducing the idea of orphan planets, so you can talk about it without specifics)
We'll have to disagree on that. The whole point to me was the _message_, not the specific place.
Quote from: JamesC on 13 January, 2020, 09:41:07 AM
It was so cack that I turned it off halfway through in favour of doing the washing up.
I wish I'd done the same. Does no one watch these before they air them? If you want to preach about climate change look to the Christmas Worzel Gummidge specials on how to do it.
I have a headache from all the eye rolling. The only tiny bright point was Bradley Walsh's humour.
I'm gong to look at this thread more often before watching! When you're expecting total catastrophe and all you see is 'not very good', it's a pleasant surprise. :lol:
But it wasn't very good - some nice lines and caharcter momenst early on: I liked [spoiler]"with some crayons and a tin of spam I could make YOU from scratch!"[/spoiler], but yeah, too many undeveloped subcharacters, always in pairs - the mechanic and his son*, the old couple, the [spoiler]mother & daughter[/spoiler] - none of them were given room to develop.
Chibnall sucks.
Couldn't remember where I'd seen the kid and was determined not to google it ... then about an hour after watching, it hit me - Roger!
I was really hoping there was no threat, everything was exactly as it seemed and they really were in a space-spa for a luxury holiday.
As that would drive the Doctor mad trying to find something - with increasingly comic results.
Alas we got this episode instead...
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 15 January, 2020, 10:23:47 AM
I was really hoping there was no threat, everything was exactly as it seemed and they really were in a space-spa for a luxury holiday.
As that would drive the Doctor mad trying to find something - with increasingly comic results.
Alas we got this episode instead...
Now that would have been good :D
I really, really want to love the series, but it is just one disappointing episode after another.
Great cast, a writer who is capable of brilliant work but something is just missing. A real shame as Jodie Whittaker is never anything less than brilliant and charming in the role, and deserves much better storylines.
Well it was better, but a bit dull. And while idea of mirrorings Tesla's relationship with Edison had potential it was all a bit meandering and events lurched from one thing to the next. Even giant scorpions running amok in turn of the century New York couldn't save it - and that's a sentence no one should have to write. If giant scorpions running amok through New York doesn't make something worth watching folks making the giant scorpions run amok need to take a good long look at themselves. Its like the writers / directors have lost the ability to craft a thread through a well paced and structured story. Just basics really.
Such a shame as the performances were excellent with what they had. And I'd love to see a season of Tesla traveling with the Doctor, fella-me-laddio who played him was excellent I thought.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 19 January, 2020, 08:10:10 PM
Well it was better, but a bit dull. And while idea of mirrorings Tesla's relationship with Edison had potential it was all a bit meandering and events lurched from one thing to the next. Even giant scorpions running amok in turn of the century New York couldn't save it - and that's a sentence no one should have to write. If giant scorpions running amok through New York doesn't make something worth watching folks making the giant scorpions run amok need to take a good long look at themselves. Its like the writers / directors have lost the ability to craft a thread through a well paced and structured story. Just basics really.
Such a shame as the performances were excellent with what they had. And I'd love to see a season of Tesla traveling with the Doctor, fella-me-laddio who played him was excellent I thought.
Yeah, Goran Višnjić's commanding performance as Tesla really threw into stark contrast just how flat and stilted some of the other performances were in this episode, he was easily the best thing in it.
An improvement over last weeks, with some nice production values, but still rather plodding.
Some good performances but a crap story and script.
This is not a family sci fi drama anymore, it's just a children's programme. And not a very good one.
It's like they decided to tell kids a bit about Nicola Tesla but put in lots of running around, monsters and being silly just so they wouldn't get bored.
Better than last week but that's not saying much. Goran Višnjić was the best thing as Tesla and it's becoming clear that Bradley Walsh is being made redundant. He was the bright spot last series but now they're reducing him to comic relief.
Mm. Unlike last week's episode, which was flat-out awful, this one was just... flat. Višnjić was good. The big bad was rubbish – something the director/editor seemed to realise, given how little was seen of her. (Also: like a copy/paste from the Racnoss in 2006.) The story was lazy. Bar the first episode, everything here so far has felt like a first draft. We're also, what, nearly halfway through the second series of this Doctor, and I still don't really know who she is (other than a Doctor that's anti-gun, but apparently sometimes... pro-genocide). I realise Doctors can take a while to bed in, but Whittaker desperately needs better material.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 21 January, 2020, 02:44:11 PM(Also: like a copy/paste from the Racnoss in 2006.)
I noticed that, and it kinda makes sense, but they could have mentioned it - The Racnoss were an arachnoid race from the earliest days of the universe, and these scorpion-critters (also arachnoid) are described as "one of the ancient races", so just like Silurians and Sea Devils were linked in original-Who, it's credible that they are related species.
I rewatch 9th-12th Doctor episodes continually (even if they feature James Corden!), but apart from the first one, I have never had any enthusiasm to rewatch any of these - they're just
dull.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 21 January, 2020, 05:45:14 PM
these scorpion-critters (also arachnoid) are described as "one of the ancient races"
No, they're not. The Orb of Thingie belonged to one of the ancient races. The scorpion-beasties just scavenged and repurposed it, like the rest of their technology.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 21 January, 2020, 05:47:07 PM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 21 January, 2020, 05:45:14 PM
these scorpion-critters (also arachnoid) are described as "one of the ancient races"
No, they're not. The Orb of Thingie belonged to one of the ancient races. The scorpion-beasties just scavenged and repurposed it, like the rest of their technology.
ah yes, my bad. I could rewatch to check, but ... y'know... other things to do, like staring at the wall :lol:
Quote from: Dandontdare on 21 January, 2020, 05:45:14 PM
I rewatch 9th-12th Doctor episodes continually (even if they feature James Corden!)
As I like to tell people, my eight year old nephew said at the time: "It's that bloke who is in everything"
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 22 January, 2020, 08:57:05 AM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 21 January, 2020, 05:45:14 PM
I rewatch 9th-12th Doctor episodes continually (even if they feature James Corden!)
As I like to tell people, my eight year old nephew said at the time: "It's that bloke who is in everything"
My version would just include one word:
"It's that bloke who is shit in everything"
This series is a bit meh so far, despite Whittaker being a superb Doctor. Again it suffers from having to squeeze everything into an hour - loads of concepts and characters just not explored - just 'bang bang bang solution end of episode'.
It's amazing that these episodes simultaneously feel crammed and empty.
This weeks had a decent premise and thematically felt like someone was thinking at least the Tesla stuff through
But I agree IP - I felt your comment:
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 22 January, 2020, 11:26:10 AM
It's amazing that these episodes simultaneously feel crammed and empty.
particularly applied to the alien threat - both barely an afterthought in terms of realisation (can you do those spider things again? That doesnt fit, but we could make them scorpions?) and motivation b(the concept is strong, but then think through what elemtns of their backstory would lead them to be in the position they are desperate enough to go after Tesla but not advanced enough to do this stuff themelves) . But they were also overblown and over complicated - they can hide as people, but also can e giant scorpions, are a Racnoss queen type thing, and they could destroy the planet and they have a ship hovering over the City and and... . If they'd kept them as the creepy guys who stole their "shape" or inhabited the dead Judge Death style and kept it at that - more virus than race, in space more by accident than design?
Otherwise, it was lifted by good performances from Tesla and Edison and the main cast (though Ryan still drains the life out of me whenever he is centre stage, he wasnt too bad here)
Caught up with this season. Great fun.
Can't decide if I enjoyed that episode or if was so stuffed with things I didn't really get a chance to think overly long about anything.
LOVED the judoon. I want more Judoon. In fact, I'd be very happy to draw a Judoon comic. They're lots of fun. Thought the actor playing the leader did a great job, really expressive body language and the prosthetics were great too.
(And as a dad I can't help love there's a Platoon of Jadoon beside the Moon...)
[spoiler]
While I'm not fussed at all about Captain Jack. my wife loves him and she's not been a great fan of this series (or even any since Matt Smith left) she loved Captain Jack coming back, and I think the startling second doctor held her interest. (While watching it, once the Docter turned up at the beginning she turned to me and said "I was enjoying that episode until the Doctor turned up")
As far me, loved the Judoon, unbothered by Captain Jack. Weirdly the whole while through the Bourne Docter I was thinking "I can't believe they've just lifted the whole thing of the Doctor hiding himself and not knowing who he is and used it on a different character, which is VERY LAZY" - but on the reveal it was Oh blimey, that's cool.
[/spoiler]
One weird thing, I think is, you never get a true sense of how big those tardis interiors are - I suspect it's because the camera is always going to mid/close up shots, so it's rare you get to see a whole human being in context of being inside the tardis. (Mind you I might be wrong, and I'm just being daft)
-PJ
I honestly don't know why everyone seems to be so sniffy about this series...I'm really enjoying it.
Yes, you can criticise it for everything that's been 'wrong' (transl: different) since the series came back, but if you haven't made your peace with that by now...
I thought this weeks continued an upward trend - the idea of [spoiler]another Doctor[/spoiler] is one I've always thought was long overdue, and the mystery of how this all works is decent, though [spoiler]it's hard to tell if the more violent past(?) Doctor is deliberately off model[/spoiler]
Having [spoiler]Captain Jack [/spoiler] back was also fun, though as my wife commented on having wandered in for a short bit of the running time - "there's a LOT of exposition in this isn't there?"
Time will tell if "Everything you know is a lie" turns out more John Byrne than Alan Moore, but let's hope for a decent resolution
I thought that was great fun. Nice surprises, twists, and a great puzzle to solve in future episodes.
[spoiler]I'm not sure if the mirror was too much of a tip - I definitely twigged there was something time-lordy going on with the shape, even though the specifics were still a surprise.[/spoiler]
Quote from: pauljholden on 26 January, 2020, 08:35:15 PM
One weird thing, I think is, you never get a true sense of how big those tardis interiors are - I suspect it's because the camera is always going to mid/close up shots, so it's rare you get to see a whole human being in context of being inside the tardis. (Mind you I might be wrong, and I'm just being daft)
-PJ
I've always thought the writers have been missing a trick with that. The interior of the TARDIS is supposed to be VAST, and this was riffed on slightly in the Baker era if I remember correctly, where people got lost in the passageways and rooms off from the main control room. There's even a secondary control room somewhere.
You could base a whole story around that, or at least be a bit more playful with it occasionally in some episodes.
They've done it a little expanding the rest of it.
https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Journey_to_the_Centre_of_the_TARDIS_(TV_story) (https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Journey_to_the_Centre_of_the_TARDIS_(TV_story))
Quote from: Steve Green on 27 January, 2020, 12:25:46 PM
They've done it a little expanding the rest of it.
https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Journey_to_the_Centre_of_the_TARDIS_(TV_story) (https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Journey_to_the_Centre_of_the_TARDIS_(TV_story))
Good shout! Forgot about that one!
Really enjoyed this weeks' episode. Most enjoyable season since Tennant left, for me.
Well it might have taken a while to get there but that was worth the wait.
Superb, such a turn around. Even when I was like oh no what's this Jack Harkness thing they've thrown into the mix it was used superbly. Its also solid gold evidence that if you give this cast something worth doing they will do it well. The absolute highlight was Jodie Whitaker finally having something to really show herself at her very, very best. She was simply magnificent. I've enjoyed her as the Doctor to date, but here she was at another level. Add to that her relationship with... herself ... was just fantastically done. If was electric, Jo Martin was brilliant.
Add to that Graham at full pelt and the others on good form. The Judoon looked great and the ideas - while hurled at us at quite the rate, as there was no need to wrap them up are left to breathe and fester and be magnificent.
Well done all involved and thank you! The first season had some good episodes but this the first one to realise the potential this cast has created.
Now the trick is of course the set up is the easy part. How they land this, that is what the real challenge of this season will be and we'll judge it on how they bring all these wonderful strands together.
Kids loved it. Boy child simply said...
"That was confusing"
"Oh so you didn't like it"
"Oh it was great, it was good confusing, I need to know ..."
List of all the things he was meant to be confused about.
Yes, really enjoyed that.
Easily the best of the series, and perhaps of JW's run. But, good grief, the inconsistency so far!
Mrs IP remarked that Barrowman "isn't doing a good Jack Harkness", which was an amusing thought. Also, this messes with Who lore but in a good way (Interesting! Weird! Mysterious!), unlike ep 3's lazy alternative timelines cop-out.
Kind of got me wondering [spoiler]where this previously unseen Doctor fits into the chronology of the series. If it's inbetween regenerations we know about, then she can only really fit between "Two" and "Three", (which means Three was re-dressed in Two's clothes after having his memories wiped of any intervening regenerations).
If she's supposed to have existed before "One", then why is her TARDIS a Police Box?
Of course, there's always the possibility she's from an alternative timeline...[/spoiler]
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 27 January, 2020, 08:22:40 PM
Kids loved it. Boy child simply said...
"That was confusing"
"Oh so you didn't like it"
"Oh it was great, it was good confusing, I need to know ..."
I never bought the argument that kids were turned off by the complicated timey-wimey plotlines.
This was the best of JW's doctor by a long margin - it felt like we got through a lot of stuff in the same running time, good action, some great lines and intriguing plotlines to follow up. Promising.
There is the old quote that you have to make Doctor Who complicated enough for the kids but simple enough for the adults.
[spoiler]We never saw who the War Doctor regenerated into. Steven Moffat upended Russell T Davies' continuity, so it could happen again. [/spoiler]
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 28 January, 2020, 12:57:38 PM
There is the old quote that you have to make Doctor Who complicated enough for the kids but simple enough for the adults.
Yeah I did used to question how kids would handle some of the more long term twisty turny storylines, genuinely not knowing. Now my kids are watching I can observe, at least with a small sample, that they handle it just fine and accept not having complete understanding, as long as they are having fun while being confused as heck.
They seem much better placed to accept that you don't have to have all the answers, and don't do that adult fan thing (?) of needing to force predictive guesses to a story and just roll with it,asking smart questions when they can... not that I can answer them yet!
I don't think that's necessarily an adult fan thing, 'cos I've always done that. I blame all those detective telly programmes in the 70s and 80s.
However, one of my favourite programmes when I was wee was Sapphire and Steel, so make of that what you will.
Quote from: M.I.K. on 29 January, 2020, 05:34:59 PM
However, one of my favourite programmes when I was wee was Sapphire and Steel, so make of that what you will.
Exactly - that made no sense and had zero explanations - I mean - "transnuranic elements will suffice" - what the hell did that mean? Didn't matter though, I lapped it up
Quote from: abelardsnazz on 29 January, 2020, 06:54:03 AM
[spoiler]We never saw who the War Doctor regenerated into. Steven Moffat upended Russell T Davies' continuity, so it could happen again. [/spoiler]
[spoiler]
We sort of did - as he began to change you could see Ecclestone's features briefly and blurrily over his own[/spoiler]
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 29 January, 2020, 07:52:22 AM
They seem much better placed to accept that you don't have to have all the answers, and don't do that adult fan thing (?) of needing to force predictive guesses to a story and just roll with it,asking smart questions when they can... not that I can answer them yet!
Yeah that is what always gets me with these threads. Doctor Who is a kids show. I was watching it aged 5 and up. Now I am 50 I still just watch it for what it is and love every minute. When there is a bit of continuity or back story that pops up it is most satisfying but I don't care about inconsistencies. Some shows are better than others I prefer some characters to others but all in all it is just a tv show to be enjoyed not anal-ysed. Same like all the Star Treks just fun TV. :-)
And yeah Saphire and Steel was great never understood any of it really, same like Blakes 7.
Some people just want to watch the world burn. I bet you don't even care how many links are in Dredd's badge chain.
Here's the thing about canon in Who. It's always been lucid, Hartnell didn't even refer to himself as "The Doctor" until the second season in '64. The Time Lords didn't exist until '69. Two Hearts? '70. The notion of pre-Hartnell incarnation first came up in Remembrance of the Daleks in 1988, so as far as canon is concerned, if ever their was a long running franchise more ripe for innovation than Doctor Who i've yet to find it.
Personally, I'd say there are different kinds of inconsistency. Some matter, and some don't. Arguably, in a show like Doctor Who, 'canon' has relatively little meaning, at least in the sense the show can be repeatedly upended and still make some kind of sense. It is, after all, dealing with aliens and time travel, and so can be fluid and morph to whatever the current showrunner demands. Fixed points in time? Sure. Want to 'reboot' the entire universe? Go for it. Decided that everything's now in flux? OK.
Where things become more problematic for me are inconsistencies within character, quality, and episodes. The second of those is simple: a show should always be objectively good. Doctor Who right now is all over the shop. Characters can change and evolve, but should remain broadly consistent, or you should at least see that change. Doctor Who can be wobbly there, and right now I still haven't figured out what this Doctor stands for (other than she hates guns but isn't terribly fussed about genocide).
Consistency within episodes, though, is something that shouldn't be readily dismissed. Plenty of Doctor Who defence comes down to it being a children's show. OK, but I have a kid, and you don't see that kind of mess everywhere. When things not only don't make sense within the show's universe but even the current episode, that suggests a deeper problem in plotting, editing, and direction. Arguably, a slew of modern TV has the same issue, but it's been especially obvious in Doctor Who for years. I suspect in part it's down to the nature of the show (no writers room; a showrunner who also acts as senior script editor.
Within Doctor Who, even the inconsistency is inconsistent. It leaps from sloppy mess to solid entries week to week. I guess that's just what the show's always been. But when you place it alongside broadly comparable fare on other networks, it these days comes across as unnecessarily sloppy – not least given that the majority of issues could be solved by hiring a decent script editor.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 30 January, 2020, 02:15:03 PMa show should always be objectively good.
No such thing.
The best episode by far this series. While I did feel that there was too much of Captain Jack, this new Doctor was a breath of fresh air. The Doctors played pretty well off each other and I'm interested to see where this goes.
And I absolutely adored her TARDIS interior.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 30 January, 2020, 02:39:43 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 30 January, 2020, 02:15:03 PMa show should always be objectively good.
No such thing.
It's an aim. Doctor Who's quality is absurdly variable, though.
Okay so the series has found its stride!
Was that the same co-writer as the last one. The difference between these last two and the rest is taking a similarly complext story and pacing and structuring it well. Its as simple as that.
That in short was really good.
Yeah, fun. And I was amazed at how subtly they got the message(s) across.
I'm joking , of course, but still enjoyed that.
I don't know how fun that episode was, but that plastic-virus skin thing was very creepy looking. Why did Ryan even touch it? Shouldn't he have been infected?
I would say it was a solid good episode.
Mrs IP and I were less keen. The basics were fine, but the message was relentless and had less subtlety than the sort of thing you see in programming for three-year-olds. It all just feels so rushed.
"I know writers who use subtext and they are all cowards!"
:D
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 04 February, 2020, 05:02:10 PM
"I know writers who use subtext and they are all cowards!"
I thought it was another mess to be honest - the disease is here because a humanoid race is testing it on us to find a cure? They do this by infecting some birds and an astronaut and a submarine, or just releasing it into the plasticy bit of the ocean?
This then makes the birds go crazy, but only in Peru and Madagascar, one by where the alien scientists are, but another not very much so?
Anyone explain how the infection pattern here makes sense?
If it HAD been Autons, it might have been cool! Microplastics in everyone now.... that is a time for the Autons to change their M.O., surely?
Yeah. Enjoyed it while I was watching but now... wtf?
yeah, just looking at a review where almost 40 utterly bizarre plot points are described - so almost one a minute! It is like they were going for the record!
When it's not preaching, it's okay.
I just don't like how when another human being is killed in a horrendous fashion, if there's any trauma amongst the witnesses, it last for about 30 seconds or so, then everyone is back to normal.
This episode was a case in point, where [spoiler]that woman's friend and companion of five years explodes into dust in front of her after first becoming a plastic virus zombie, yet 30 mins later she's strolling along aa beach happy as you please with her new chums.[/spoiler]
Amongst other things, it totally removes any sense of danger or threat from the narrative.
Mrs IP noticed that, along with the series's tendency for unnecessary sacrifice. It's all so lazy – much like the writing as a whole.
I noticed it as well. I also thought Graham's "What you going to call yourselves? 'Three Idiots Roaming'?" comment was more than a bit insensitive. [spoiler]He's only just met them and now he's dishing out jokey insults based upon the name of a vlog one of them did with her friend who's just exploded?[/spoiler]
Quote from: M.I.K. on 05 February, 2020, 01:33:43 PM
I noticed it as well. I also thought Graham's "What you going to call yourselves? 'Three Idiots Roaming'?" comment was more than a bit insensitive. [spoiler]He's only just met them and now he's dishing out jokey insults based upon the name of a vlog one of them did with her friend who's just exploded?[/spoiler]
Yeah, they've altered Graham's character quite a bit. He was the highlight of the last series and now they're trying to have Ryan and Yas take a more active role in the stories to replace him, in which they are failing spectacularly. Graham's been relegated to a Cockney anachronism.
The Doctor is looking for Submarine survivors - and just happens upon an alien outpost.
Ryan is looking for falling birds, and has been given a T shirt to bring one back with.
Yaz and Graham are investigating an energy pattern, but there is coincidentally an astronaut who is being experimented on coincidentally, as his ship was coincidentally knocked out on re-entry by some power surge - given the birds with the infection are in Peru, both Hong Kong and Madagscar seem entirely coincidental.
Luckily the opening spiel tells us this episode is about how we are all connected, so none of that stuff is coincidence - phew!
Quote from: Leigh S on 05 February, 2020, 08:59:26 PM... and has been given a T shirt to bring one back with.
Seriously? You want an extra five minutes of backstory to explain why he has a t shirt?
You're just trolling now. If you hate it so much, maybe just watch a DVD instead. Or not, you seem to put a lot of effort into hating it, so you must be getting something from it (cf Star Wars fans).
Dr Who has ALWAYS been shit if you set out to pick holes - plot anomalies are as common as reversed polarities or temporal paradoxes. I defy you to name me one story old or new that couldn't be picked apart with plot-holes, convenient coincidences, illogical actions or contradictory reactions. Dr Who is the ultimate "suspension of disbelief show", none of it really makes sense, but that's never been the point. You just go with the flow, enjoy the witticisms, the character, the monsters and the general action/adventure. And it's awesome.
The last season was crap because it was rather dull and plodding, and this one started poorly I grant you, but kicking off because the narrative device of "collecting one of the clues that the doctor will need later in the plot" was depicted as "he wraps it in a t-shirt" is pedantry of the highest level.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 05 February, 2020, 10:11:01 PM
...pedantry of the highest level.
Actually, the highest level of pedantry (if we're being precise) has only been achieved twice in recorded human history, as decided upon during the tetra-annual Icelandic Pedants' Council held in Mývatn Castle.
"Pedantic, I?" ―Alexei Sayle
Also: Romanes eunt domus (https://youtu.be/IIAdHEwiAy8).
Ryan was specifically sent to investigate the dying birds - he says this to Gabriella(?)
So having been sent there on that mission, he has been equipped with nothing to bring back a sample and wraps a dead bird in a T-Shirt? The Doctor is even surprised he has a sample!
If you have established a character is there to do a certain job, pointing out that he is so ill prepared for that job is not pedantry, as it just draws attention to the fact the writer isn't really thinking through the plot.
The old show having plot holes and coincidences? Sure, but on the scale you get here? And as an argument "it has always been shit" seems.... a bit defeatist? Alan Moore didnt look at Superhero comics and go "they have always been shit" and write more of the same.
to reduce this to its basics: Aliens seeking cure crash and release Praxeus, which due to radiation (from the crash) is able to make a weird underwater environment that the submarine is somehow caught up in (though if this is the bottom of the ocean, how did any crew get out without being crushed) - some of the alien crew are totally Praxeus zombies, but working against Praxeus to find a cure? Birds infected with Praxeus are able to do the bidding of Praxeus to spread the disease, but are being really cautious about it. Praxeus somehow works out that the scientists have this Madagascar lab, having been off in Peru, despite the crash being in the Indian Ocean? The Praxeus zombies who are looking for a cure set up a base in Hong Kong as well, with an astronaut - this astronauts ship crashed due to an energy surge, and he is infected because.... I give in at this point - sure you could jump through some hoops to join some dots, but not a pretty pattern of perfectly placed hoops, just some mangled, broken not even really established rings of your own creation rather than the writer's..
There is complex plotting and there is complicated plotting and there is complicated to disguise a lack of complexity....
Do I hate Doctor Who? I love it, or rather I love the idea of it - I don't continue to watch it because I hate it, I watch it because sometimes you get a good episode and I can forget the dodgy ones whe you get a "Mummy on the Orient Express" or what have you (whatever happened to Jamie Mathieson -he wrote a couple of great ones).
I dont watch it ranting at the screen - I am part bemused and part despairing that they have the capapcity to be so much better - but hey, if it's all shit, so why should they even try?
Quote from: Dandontdare on 05 February, 2020, 10:11:01 PM
The last season was crap because it was rather dull and plodding, and this one started poorly I grant you, but kicking off because the narrative device of "collecting one of the clues that the doctor will need later in the plot" was depicted as "he wraps it in a t-shirt" is pedantry of the highest level.
I thought the last season was an improvement in many ways (on Moffat and on this new one)- felt more old school Who, for good or ill. Focussing on the plots rather than some ultimately half baked mystery arc, it actually felt quite fresh even when it didnt land - which was half the time, but OK - the only one I really disliked was the Dalek one (though missed and never caught up with the spider one as the reviews seemed pretty dire!)
Quote from: Leigh S on 05 February, 2020, 10:39:05 PM
Ryan was specifically sent to investigate the dying birds - he says this to Gabriella(?)
So having been sent there on that mission, he has been equipped with nothing to bring back a sample and wraps a dead bird in a T-Shirt? The Doctor is even surprised he has a sample!
If you have established a character is there to do a certain job, pointing out that he is so ill prepared for that job is not pedantry, as it just draws attention to the fact the writer isn't really thinking through the plot.
Since when has the doctor planned or equipped like a Star Trek away mission? "Ooh, that looks weird and dangerous, let's wander in and have a look". She's got multiple odd phenomena to investigate, one of which is weird things happening to birds, so sending him out to just have a shufti is entirely consistent.
Quote from: Leigh S on 05 February, 2020, 10:39:05 PM
The old show having plot holes and coincidences? Sure, but on the scale you get here? And as an argument "it has always been shit" seems.... a bit defeatist? Alan Moore didnt look at Superhero comics and go "they have always been shit" and write more of the same.
Absolutely not. My point is that the ubiquitous plot holes have never stopped it being the greatest TV show ever made, but that you can make any of it sound bad with that level of nitpicking if you really try to.
Quote from: Leigh S on 05 February, 2020, 10:39:05 PMDo I hate Doctor Who? I love it, or rather I love the idea of it - I don't continue to watch it because I hate it, I watch it because sometimes you get a good episode and I can forget the dodgy ones whe you get a "Mummy on the Orient Express" or what have you (whatever happened to Jamie Mathieson -he wrote a couple of great ones).
I dont watch it ranting at the screen - I am part bemused and part despairing that they have the capapcity to be so much better - but hey, if it's all shit, so why should they even try?
I worry you may have killed it, and you'll never enjoy it again if you put so much critical thought into it and reverse-engineer every narrative to analyse whether it makes sense. I don't bother, I just let maguffin A lead me to leap of logic B which leads to techno-basil C - classic who formula. I find the less you engage the logic circuits, whilst diverting power to the fun-receptors, (AKA factory settings for a 12 year old) it's still a very enjoyable show.
( PS- I quite liked the mummy one - apart from a miscast Frank Skinner - funny man, but not the greatest of actors):lol:
I was a very critical 12 year old! :P
The plot holes or leaps in the old show were much easier to overlook when the show made an effort to explain stuffor just plain keep it simple - sometimes the explanation was a bit weak, but it showed some care. Zygons dont make much sense with their Loch Ness Monster, but I don't want to pick them apart because the show wisely keeps the narrative simple enough to follow and engage in other ways - I'm not having to try and fill in the gaps in those old shows with any old grout of my own invention. Here, there is only the plot, the mystery of the plot - it asks you to conssider the mystery of the plot - how are these things connected? it keeps asking you to consider..... but then has no answers, and outright contradictions.... so the gaps are all there is (bar some funny banter and worthy* messages)
*and I say worthy in a very positive sense - I thnk they undermine the positivity of those messages by the threadbare plottng they utilise them in, but yeah, The Green Death - go for it!
I mean, you can look at The Invisible Enemy and say "we have carte blanche to be as silly as that"...
Or put it another way, we should set the bar for Dredd at Elviss the Killer Car, or Judge Tyrannosaur, because they exist?
Ah, I'm a bit drunk, so that Dredd comparison ...
(https://i.imgur.com/af5rmIf.png)
https://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/doctor-who/69811/joe-hill-doctor-who-bbc-rejection (https://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/doctor-who/69811/joe-hill-doctor-who-bbc-rejection)
Presumably Moffatt rather than Chibster, but what the actual?
I mean, they might have been bad, but as bad as Kill The Moon?
Yeah saw that on Bleeding Cool the other day. You have to wonder what a Joe Hill Doctor Who would have been like, and alas we will just have to wonder.
Tuned in halfway through and thought they'd pulled a Dr Who/Picard crossover but it was just some old baldy ghostly bloke. Tuned out again 5 mins later.
Season continues to be improved, that one was pretty good. Still wearing its themes very much on its sleeves and has no subtly at all but the stories are at least well constructed now and the dialogue fun. Again all the performances being enhanced by having something worth performing.
Good episode.
Yeah, that was an improvement, although I don't think they had thought how the finger effect was going to work on screen!
I dont't mind the odd Cosmic level foe - Celestial Toymaker for the first Dr - The MAster (of Fiction) for the Second, Azal for Third, Sutekh, The Guardians...
That episode went down well in this household. And although the theme of mental wellness wasn't subtle, it was less smash-in-your-face than the ones on saving the planet and plastic, and largely dealt with in a warm and human manner.
Yes, I enjoyed that. Subtle? Not in the slightest. Effective? Yeah, I think so.
Quote from: Leigh S on 09 February, 2020, 09:06:44 PM
I dont't mind the odd Cosmic level foe - Celestial Toymaker for the first Dr - The MAster (of Fiction) for the Second, Azal for Third, Sutekh, The Guardians...
FENRIC!
Much better episode than last week. Sure the Doctor was duped once more by empathy but at least there is some movement on the series arc. They even used Graham for more than the occasional quip. I hope it keeps improving through to the end of the series.
Not bad, but I think they are still relying too much on convenient info-dumps. (nice wee animation tho)
Quote from: Dandontdare on 11 February, 2020, 03:03:10 PM(nice wee animation tho)
Oh yeah forgot to mention that. That was a nice touch I thought.
will catch up on this tonight...
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 11 February, 2020, 04:40:56 PM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 11 February, 2020, 03:03:10 PM(nice wee animation tho)
Oh yeah forgot to mention that. That was a nice touch I thought.
It should have been voiced by Stephen Fry in the same manner as a HHGTTG entry. It would have been much better use of Fry.
It is possible that make less sense than Praxeus, but had a large enough, powerful enough macguffin to gloss over most of the issues that you might have - not sure why the Cyberium was helping Shelley /how Shelley was able to use it, but maybe a rewatch might make that clear
Only real bugbear is emotional cyberman again - just because Alan Moore did it, people - has no one learnt that lesson yet....?
Not sure what it added to have him stomping about in a grump - the big thing Cybermen have going for them is the lackof emotion, but time and again it's ignored/subverted. I guess it was to make them more Frankenstein's Monstery? But I think it would have worked better with a standard type!
Still, Cyberleader rating: "Excellent!" *clenches fist*
That was great. Sapphire and Steel first half with Doctor Who second half.
Yep that was excellent. This really has been the series of two halves. There is so much to tidy up though! Really intrigued to find out how they'll do it.
We almost made it through the entire episode without a lecture, but then Chibbers pulled it out.
It was still a pretty good episode, though. The best so far of this series. Yas and Ryan weren't even that annoying. I hope the last episodes are at least as good and hopefully better.
I kind of forgot that we're in short season mode with DW, and so only the two-parter left. My guess: part one will be great and part two will be pap, as is traditional.
I'm glad we've seen some properly great episodes during this series – the previous one was often good, but rarely beyond that. But it really is the most uneven production, and it needn't be. Or perhaps the series should be shorter, with some kind of magic wand banishing the pap. Remove the dreck that was Orphan 55 and the rubbish Praxeus, and you still have some middling stuff (Spyfall, Part 2/Tesla), but the series as a whole would look a lot more solid.
yeah, drop Praxeus and Orphan 55 and have another double, so you get a traditional 6 stories spread over 9 episodes?
3 single parters and 3 doubles, each 55 minutes to an hour to make up for the missing episode (maybe - not sure how long they run at the minute, but 5 minutes each extra would do them the world of good).
Probably give the extra episode to the Eternals one and have the cliffhanger the Doctor freeing the one and realising their mistake, with a second episode of putting it right in some properly clever way (I dont recall how they did it, which is not a good sign).
That would free up a lot of writing room, surely? Two less stories to have to come up with, nurse along the entire production process
This article nails it: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/feb/19/the-diehards-of-doom-why-doctor-who-is-the-show-fans-love-to-hate (https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/feb/19/the-diehards-of-doom-why-doctor-who-is-the-show-fans-love-to-hate)
See also fandom reaction to 2000 AD (bar, perhaps, the objectively crappy period around the 800s for a few years).
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 19 February, 2020, 04:39:53 PM
See also fandom reaction to 2000 AD (bar, perhaps, the objectively crappy period around the 800s for a few years).
Indeed - one of the comments below the article is:
QuoteFitzHat 26m ago
This is a perennial problem of fandom. If you want real bile, check out what some comics fans say and write.
My other favourites scattered amongst the largely reasonable debate are:
QuoteMMSD81 29m ago
i hate it cos its shite, no other reason
and
Quote
issingM 36m ago
It was SO much better in the future
Though presumably to follow the logic, we should have rah-raheed that era?
When he talks about fans complaining when it is complicate dand complaining when it is simple, it's likely a large majority of these people are not the same people - sure there is an uncomfortably large rump of gammons and never pleased, but if all criticism is made null by the worst of the critics, then Mother Earth is objectively as good as the Cursed Earth, Dead Meat as good as The Dead Man?
As he points out, Chibbers was chief amongst the "MM"s - I'd give him a bit more credit if he didnt backtrack (or at least qualified his not unreasonable distaste for that Era)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 19 February, 2020, 04:39:53 PM
See also fandom reaction to 2000 AD (bar, perhaps, the objectively crappy period around the 800s for a few years).
Quote from: Leigh S on 19 February, 2020, 06:23:27 PM
Though presumably to follow the logic, we should have rah-raheed that era?
The point is that fans complain during EVERY era!
I get that, but does that mean there is no point in criticism? that all are equally as successful so long as there is a core of people who still like it?
Quote from: Dandontdare on 19 February, 2020, 06:29:47 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 19 February, 2020, 06:23:27 PM
Though presumably to follow the logic, we should have rah-raheed that era?
The point is that fans complain during EVERY era!
Quote from: Leigh S on 19 February, 2020, 07:23:31 PM
I get that, but does that mean there is no point in criticism? that all are equally as successful so long as there is a core of people who still like it?
Quote from: Dandontdare on 19 February, 2020, 06:29:47 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 19 February, 2020, 06:23:27 PM
Though presumably to follow the logic, we should have rah-raheed that era?
The point is that fans complain during EVERY era!
Nah, just that Whovians are a bunch of bloody whingers! :lol:
Quote from: Dandontdare on 19 February, 2020, 07:31:32 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 19 February, 2020, 07:23:31 PM
I get that, but does that mean there is no point in criticism? that all are equally as successful so long as there is a core of people who still like it?
Quote from: Dandontdare on 19 February, 2020, 06:29:47 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 19 February, 2020, 06:23:27 PM
Though presumably to follow the logic, we should have rah-raheed that era?
The point is that fans complain during EVERY era!
Nah, just that Whovians are a bunch of bloody whingers! :lol:
Have you seen 2000ad Facebook pages!
Quote from: Dandontdare on 19 February, 2020, 07:31:32 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 19 February, 2020, 07:23:31 PM
I get that, but does that mean there is no point in criticism? that all are equally as successful so long as there is a core of people who still like it?
Quote from: Dandontdare on 19 February, 2020, 06:29:47 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 19 February, 2020, 06:23:27 PM
Though presumably to follow the logic, we should have rah-raheed that era?
The point is that fans complain during EVERY era!
Nah, just that Whovians are a bunch of bloody whingers! :lol:
(https://i.imgur.com/Aqg7N3F.jpg)
Quote from: Leigh S on 19 February, 2020, 06:23:27 PMif all criticism is made null by the worst of the critics, then Mother Earth is objectively as good as the Cursed Earth, Dead Meat as good as The Dead Man?
I think the point I'm making is more about nostalgia clouding the senses rather than objective quality. The former happens a lot in fandom, and 2000 AD is hardly immune to that, given the prevalence of the "it used to be better in the old days" brigade.
That's certainly the case, but it seems a lazy defence of a show (or comic) to find the most ill informed, vague or gammony critics and characterize all criticism as that - I remember when Who came back and I was pretty much delighted with that first series, despite some reservations around plot resolution (the infamous RTDeus Ex Machina).
While there were a lot of indisputable MMs, it was clear all criticism was swept under the same umbrella - define your "enemy" as the worst, most straw man example - then kind of make it like you need to choose - are you for this or against it? "Why are you watching it if you hate it!" - you see it in all walks of life, look at Politics - it's that dratted interwebs fault I tell thee...
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 20 February, 2020, 05:26:29 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 19 February, 2020, 06:23:27 PMif all criticism is made null by the worst of the critics, then Mother Earth is objectively as good as the Cursed Earth, Dead Meat as good as The Dead Man?
I think the point I'm making is more about nostalgia clouding the senses rather than objective quality. The former happens a lot in fandom, and 2000 AD is hardly immune to that, given the prevalence of the "it used to be better in the old days" brigade.
Just to prove the memory doesn't cheat, my review of "Rose" - quite easy to go back and find these as this iteration of the forum appears to have started only aa couple of months before the Who relaunch...
Quote from: Leigh S on 27 March, 2005, 05:37:48 AM
Much better than it had any right to be - OK, so there was little 'plot' but there wasnt meant to be one - it was about introducing the characters and concepts, and did that perfectly. Eccleston was perfect - all the clips I'd seen didnt prepare me for how well he did every aspect of teh role, from manic to serious - Even Piper exceeded expectations.
The only real downer was the terrible incidental music, which undermined a lot of the tension, especially in the early section.
And nice to see Beeb f*** up by piping in Norton at the most opportune moments - well done you arses! :)
By the end of series 1 I was positive, but anxious about the same issues that have marred my enjoyment ever since - as I say, what I see as a bug, others see as a feature:
https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=14189.45 (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=14189.45)
but some relevant discussion going on there pertinent to this thread, 15 years on! PVS, where art thou? well I know where you are, holed up in Midlam Manor plotting nefariously, but even so - Glory days!
I need to take part more in this forum. So... Doctor Who?
I'm enjoying this series. My feelings about the last one were that I thought Jodie Whittaker made a good Doctor, but the stories were mostly pretty dull (except the giant spiders one, which was really cringy, and the Pakistan one, which was elevated by its beautiful photography) and there were probably too many companions, with Yaz more often than not left with not much to do.
This series is a big improvement in how much more fun the stories are. It can get a bit message-y (but it could do that under Moffatt too), and there was that one episode in particular where the message was delivered by a marching band of sledgehammers (which also stole the future predators from Primeval). But mostly, it's upped the bonkers quotient, so I'm happy.
Story by story:
Spyfall - this was fun, packed with incident and ideas. The new Master is a good take on the character (I wasn't keen on John Sim - too manic - but I loved Missy) and the use of historical characters was well done.
Orphan 55 - <paxman>yeeesssss</paxman>. This series' Arachnids in the UK.
Nikola Tesla's Night of Horror - well cast, the giant scorpions were a bit "we need a monster, what can we use?", but a good fun throwaway episode.
Fugitive of the Judoon - marvellous. Lots of misdirection, centred around a total mindfuck. This is my kind of Doctor Who story.
Praxeus - another eco-message episode. To be honest, I only half-watched this one, there were other things going on in my house, so I don't really know how good it was.
Can You Hear Me? - Loved this one. An obvious moral, but one I can relate to, and well integrated into the story. Ian Gelder's performance as the big bald baddie was delicious.
The Haunting of Villa Diodati - another excellent one. Very creepy, the half-converted cyberman was a fantastic design, pays off Jack's warning and sets up the big finale. I know you couldn't really kill off any of the famous aristocratic characters, but the servants deserved better.
Well that was pretty fine and then... then... the bloody Master shows up all over egging it and nonsense. The last episode has a LOT of ground to cover!
Hopefully it will be an hour long at least...
That wasn't bad, though it didn't have to land any endings - it wasnt clear what Cyber-Ranters game is, but then again, it should hopefully all pan out next week and tie in with the whole Gallifrey destruction/other Doctors threads.... should.....
Good to see the Master, not great to see the Master as Tennant adjacent - I'm trying to imagine Anthony Ainley playing the Master as Tom Baker might and failiing. The Villain should surely stand as opposite to the Hero rather than some weird mimic? I suppose you could see some echoes between the urbane Pertwee and Delgado incarnations....
If Cyber-Ranters only plan to ascend is to "switch them off and on again", that seems a bit poor! Hope there is more to it than that, and that is hinted at. I thought there would be fun had with the Cybermen doing everything possible to avoid killing those last humans as the only source of more of their kind, so having 10,000s of Warrior types in deep freeze(Need a better look at the design, but on first glance liked them - a bit "Invasion/Revenge" style) feels both a missed opportunity and a bit of a cop out.... for now
I think that's a fair assessment - I was not keeping up with Capaldis last series - the Moon is an Egg/Spontaneous Trees episodes did for me I think - then the way the First Doctor got character assassinated in the final Capaldi had me in a position where even with Chris "Cyberwoman" Chibnall as the successor was a step up.
First series of Jodie I intermittently enjoyed - it felt more like old Who, for good and ill - I think it started by breaking Moffatts "dont start your episode with two "aliens" discussing their culture/problems" rule?
Ryan I still find terribly flat, but Yaz is decent and Graham entertaining... I liked the lack of "BIG" arcs last series, so am wary of "GALLIFREY DESTROYED/EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS A LIE!", but let's see where it lands....
Quote from: Patrick on 22 February, 2020, 10:28:13 PM
I need to take part more in this forum. So... Doctor Who?
I'm enjoying this series. My feelings about the last one were that I thought Jodie Whittaker made a good Doctor, but the stories were mostly pretty dull (except the giant spiders one, which was really cringy, and the Pakistan one, which was elevated by its beautiful photography) and there were probably too many companions, with Yaz more often than not left with not much to do.
This series is a big improvement in how much more fun the stories are. It can get a bit message-y (but it could do that under Moffatt too), and there was that one episode in particular where the message was delivered by a marching band of sledgehammers (which also stole the future predators from Primeval). But mostly, it's upped the bonkers quotient, so I'm happy.
Story by story:
Spyfall - this was fun, packed with incident and ideas. The new Master is a good take on the character (I wasn't keen on John Sim - too manic - but I loved Missy) and the use of historical characters was well done.
Orphan 55 - <paxman>yeeesssss</paxman>. This series' Arachnids in the UK.
Nikola Tesla's Night of Horror - well cast, the giant scorpions were a bit "we need a monster, what can we use?", but a good fun throwaway episode.
Fugitive of the Judoon - marvellous. Lots of misdirection, centred around a total mindfuck. This is my kind of Doctor Who story.
Praxeus - another eco-message episode. To be honest, I only half-watched this one, there were other things going on in my house, so I don't really know how good it was.
Can You Hear Me? - Loved this one. An obvious moral, but one I can relate to, and well integrated into the story. Ian Gelder's performance as the big bald baddie was delicious.
The Haunting of Villa Diodati - another excellent one. Very creepy, the half-converted cyberman was a fantastic design, pays off Jack's warning and sets up the big finale. I know you couldn't really kill off any of the famous aristocratic characters, but the servants deserved better.
Well, if this review is anything to go by, this episode sounds promising. :lol:
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/doctor-who-landed-in-1950s-rural-ireland-last-night-the-fiddles-never-stopped-1.4183190
Quote from: paddykafka on 25 February, 2020, 10:50:08 AM
Well, if this review is anything to go by, this episode sounds promising. :lol:
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/doctor-who-landed-in-1950s-rural-ireland-last-night-the-fiddles-never-stopped-1.4183190
I blame the Brits....
Doctor: Stay here. I can protect you. Trust me.
30-seconds later, two dead.
Doctor: I can't protect you, run.
Erm, yeah.
This Doctor is a bit shit on that. Also, why the fuck does she keep parking the TARDIS a mile away from where they are going, and then saying they can't get back to the TARDIS? She's coming across like Nemesis, playing with the ants.
Has there ever been consistency about where the TARDIS lands?
Well, no, but the thing landing miles away from the action, so they can run with the "we can't get back to the TARDIS" conceit yet again in the same series is a bit trying.
Very true.
it does seem to be a theme now...
If Chibnall is working up to a Gallifey IS in Ireland, I will be smashing my screen Ian Levine style! :lol:
Quote from: von Boom on 25 February, 2020, 03:48:21 PM
Doctor: Stay here. I can protect you. Trust me.
30-seconds later, two dead.
Doctor: I can't protect you, run.
Erm, yeah.
To be fair, she also said "stay in the buildings and don't run"
And the doctor has long form in this - Recently watched the Titanic Xmas episode and he made the same promise to the fat brummie couple (deceased).
Quote from: Leigh S on 25 February, 2020, 04:36:15 PM
If Chibnall is working up to a Gallifey IS in Ireland, I will be smashing my screen Ian Levine style! :lol:
He's not.
I wish he had been
Has he never heard of Chekov's Death Particle?
Tosh doesn't begin to cover it. dull tosh? Dull, illogical tosh? Dull, self important, illogica tosh?
I know saying that it felt like it was plotted by a 5 year old is lazy criticism, but not fraction as lazy as this was.
"Only I can detonate the death thing... " "Goodbye Doctor...." "Hang on, I could do that, thinking about it!" Cliche mounted on cliche, like a writer whose only exposure to fiction was old episodes of 80s cartoons ala Captain Planet (which come to think of it would explain the "theme of the week" as well)..
When the woman did the "The myth of the death particle" speech, I have to say that is some of the best acting I have seen in Doctor Who - to be fair, they all knocked their socks off to be able to deliver this static exposition heaped upon exposition - the catharsis of spurious morality had nothing on this beauty.
Yes there were some glaring bits of terrible overblown Force Awaken style action contrivance. Yes I'm not sure I need the Doctor to be... whatever the Doctor was there ... and christ The Master was an overblown panto villian and would have been so much more effective and creepy if dialled down about a notch or two... or twelve actually... as would the Cybermen if a simple story decision had been to limit their number, make things all the more plauisable and them all the more creepy, but you know what despite some terrible bits and all that I really enjoyed that.
I mean why the Doc let Ben Kenobi do [spoiler]the self sacrfice [/spoiler]bit just after he'd turned off the tractor beam seemed very out of character but I still liked it... not loved it for the various reasons above but it did, somehow, wrap things up well and make the second half of this season a satisfying whole.
I enjoyed the final few episodes of the series and hope it continues like that next series, the less preachy episodes have been good and can't wait for the daleks
At one point I did think it was being deliberately awful, in a "I am a terribly clever writer and will SHOCK you as I twist this round" - when the Doctor blows the Matrixes mind by showing it 12/13 lives (despite it containing the whole of Timelord history) and she is lying on the floor, and the fam came in, it looked momentarily like it was filmed differently - like 80s video - I thought it was going to do a meta - fiction within fiction reveal that would set up an arc for next season maybe? Something Matrixy? Something that would explain the absolute howler that was the Death Particle (when your woman mentioned she knew all about it, I was convinced we were in meta territory!)
I'm reminded of Grant Morrison's time on X-Force(?) where he got loads of complaints from comics fans that he was being too poncey, so he deliberately wrote the most cliched episode he could. when ll the plaudits started coming in "Morrison finally gets it!" etc etc, he sneered at his new found fans, claiming that it showed who he
could write the shite everyone else did, but he was much too Superior for that....
This reminded me of that, but sadly, without the smug revelation that the writer could do anything more than Saturday Morning serial....
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 01 March, 2020, 08:18:06 PM
Yes there were some glaring bits of terrible overblown Force Awaken style action contrivance. Yes I'm not sure I need the Doctor to be... whatever the Doctor was there ... and christ The Master was an overblown panto villian and would have been so much more effective and creepy if dialled down about a notch or two... or twelve actually... as would the Cybermen if a simple story decision had been to limit their number, make things all the more plauisable and them all the more creepy, but you know what despite some terrible bits and all that I really enjoyed that.
I mean why the Doc let Ben Kenobi do [spoiler]the self sacrfice [/spoiler]bit just after he'd turned off the tractor beam seemed very out of character but I still liked it... not loved it for the various reasons above but it did, somehow, wrap things up well and make the second half of this season a satisfying whole.
Well, I thought that was fun.
I thought it was the very definition of not fun! sluggish pacing, sloppy exposition, cliched cyber action and convenient death particle, Doctor not willing to kill, but happy for others to do it for her (loving the Cybermen and the Master letting them have that little debate and giving her time to run to the TARDIS, great drama there...)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 01 March, 2020, 09:40:05 PM
Well, I thought that was fun.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 01 March, 2020, 09:40:05 PM
Well, I thought that was fun.
Yep. I've enjoyed more episodes (on balance) than I haven't, and the back end of this series has been great. I'll stick my neck out and say I think it's been as good a series as any since the revival.
(Which isn't to say it's delivered a high point as high as some of my favourites in previous series, but the clunkers haven't clunked as badly as some, either.)
I am with Jim on this!
Also i think that clears up the whole brain of moebius snarl in a tiny bow now :lol:
That was proper silly fun.
Thoughts - Grahan & co now have a working TARDIS that looks like a house.
Was the 'mystery' Doctor potentially a pre-Hartnell incarnation?
How did the Judoon teleport into the Tardis? I thought that was not allowed.
Glad to see that Jodie is still going to be around for at least 'some' of the next run.
Looms.
They canonised The Looms. The absolute nutters.
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 02 March, 2020, 12:14:46 PM
Glad to see that Jodie is still going to be around for at least 'some' of the next run.
I thought she was signed up for the next season and did a search and yep she'd let slip earlier this year
Quote'I'm doing another season.'.
I mean that implies a full season right? Doesn't it I was hopeful. Though there was clearly a point (or two) in the last story that seemed built in for her to regenerated if needed!
Quote from: The Monarch on 02 March, 2020, 03:39:37 AM
Also i think that clears up the whole brain of moebius snarl in a tiny bow now :lol:
Wait, what? What did I miss? Was that in the bit where the Doctor [spoiler]fought the Matrix with her memories?[/spoiler] Someone explain please!
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 02 March, 2020, 12:55:11 PM
Quote from: The Monarch on 02 March, 2020, 03:39:37 AM
Also i think that clears up the whole brain of moebius snarl in a tiny bow now :lol:
Wait, what? What did I miss? Was that in the bit where the Doctor [spoiler]fought the Matrix with her memories?[/spoiler] Someone explain please!
Yes. [spoiler]Faces.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 01 March, 2020, 11:08:26 PMI'll stick my neck out and say I think it's been as good a series as any since the revival.
I do wonder if that's the case for me as well. Doctor Who has always been really inconsistent, and that was true from RTD's time onwards. For me, Orphan 55 was one of the worst episodes in the show's history, and Praxeus was also dire. But most other series have had at least one or two clunkers. But I very much enjoyed Skyfall's first part (the second was OK), Fugitive, and the final four episodes. Also, kudos to Chibnall for doing something rare in Doctor Who: writing a two-parter where for me the second half didn't ruin the entire thing.
There are issues. I still don't really get what this Doctor stands for, and she too often feels like a passenger in her own series. In the former case, that was evident last night. As people have noted elsewhere, there were other 'outs' for the Doctor that may have been used in the past – perhaps using a virus to nullify the Cyberman Time Lords, or even something like Nigel Auchterlounie's amusing take (https://twitter.com/spleenal/status/1234270652678496257), where the Cyberlords are reminded they have a part of the Doctor within them, and so she takes them over. (They could have become an interesting species.)
Mostly, I'm a bit uncomfortable with how fine this Doctor is with wiping out entire species, as long as no-one uses a gun or she doesn't have to use the weapon herself. (I'm anti-guns, but in that rubbish episode with the spiders, the merciful thing would have been killing them, rather than leaving starving spiders to eat each other to extinction.)
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 02 March, 2020, 12:14:46 PMThat was proper silly fun.
NO YOU ARE WRONG DOCTOR WHO IS SERIOUS AND HERE IS MY 50000 WORD ESSAY ON WHY THE CANON IS NOW—
QuoteThoughts - Grahan & co now have a working TARDIS that looks like a house.
Clara's also blasting around in a TARDIS, isn't she? And tree TARDIS feels like a plot point in waiting.
QuoteWas the 'mystery' Doctor potentially a pre-Hartnell incarnation?
Who knows? That does make sense as one place to slot her in. And perhaps residual memories regarding police box/helping people/escaping the Time Lords filtered through to Hartnell lifetime Doctor, hence his decision to nick a TARDIS, flee, and end up on Earth with it. (Perhaps it was even the same one, and got screwed up.)
QuoteHow did the Judoon teleport into the Tardis? I thought that was not allowed.
It's not. But then timey-wimey wibbly wobbly what the scripty demandsy.
I got no problems with the new canon, but if the "Ruth" Doctor is actually pre-Hartnell, why was her Tardis a police box?
And I may need to rewatch to understand the explanation of what the Gard Brendan bits were about. Am I right that [spoiler]they are a disguised version of her pre-Hartnell memories of service in the Division? If so, are they just her own subconscious interpretations or did someone actively decide to use mid C.20th rural Ireland to mask her memories? [/spoiler]
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 02 March, 2020, 12:14:46 PM
How did the Judoon teleport into the Tardis? I thought that was not allowed.
It is at Christmas - cf Donna & The Titanic.
Dandontdare: my reading of it is the same as yours, yes. As for Ruth, how long had she been on Earth? Perhaps she rocked up at the relevant time, then buried the TARDIS, and lived her life for years.
Why does Ruth Doctor have a Police Box? Why has the Doctor only just bumped into another version of herself? If it is because Gallifrey isnt on the scene, that doesnt work given it has been written out for the most part since Eccleston - then there are the implications for various stories, but all this is canon - it's Chibnall who is concerned with Canon, with how to make the Brain of Morbius Doctors canon, or that David Bishop/David Warner Big Finish story canon....
My concern with the canon bothering is three fold
I like the Doctor as a "person who got up one day and left for adventures" - people who enjoyed this episode I'm genuinely interested in how you feel about the Doctor being an agent of the CIA all these years (and how does that really make sense of an older Doctor running off - wouldnt he have been adventuring on behalf of the Division throughout the youth of Hartnell? But that is canon bothering - are we happy the Doctors agency seems less? That the Doctor is now "special" amongst Timelords? The real problem is you cant have both the gentleman adventurer Troughton/Pertwee/Baker being hit up by the Timelords to do the odd job, with him also being their top undercover guy/gal?
I hate "chosen ones" - Harry Potters and Luke Skywalkers - now the Doctor can be one too.
It was dull as ditchwater and cliched as hell! Doctor walks into a room and is paralysed, but sent to the Matrix, where anything can happen.... but we'll settle for a grey mist. a Mark Millar version of the Master narrates. And as the Ruth Doctor said, what did it reallly tell us about the Doctor that make a material difference? Problem is solved by a hilarious scale model of a cyberman with a newly revealed and entirely plot or character unrelated get out and a convenient old man to do the thing the Doctor thinks shouldnt be done?
The show did well enough wihtout canon, without trying to burden the character with depth - it was all mined in Ecclestons first series - man/woman who will do good in dire circumstances. Never cruel or cowardly.
(and when I say depth, I mean genuine characterfulness, not pasted on and often contradictory emoshes)
https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-03-02/doctor-who-the-timeless-children-review/ (https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-03-02/doctor-who-the-timeless-children-review/)
Quote from: M.I.K. on 02 March, 2020, 01:32:09 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 02 March, 2020, 12:55:11 PM
Quote from: The Monarch on 02 March, 2020, 03:39:37 AM
Also i think that clears up the whole brain of moebius snarl in a tiny bow now :lol:
Wait, what? What did I miss? Was that in the bit where the Doctor [spoiler]fought the Matrix with her memories?[/spoiler] Someone explain please!
Yes. [spoiler]Faces.[/spoiler]
Ah!! OMG!! So that Brain of Morbius episode showed that Hartnell was NOT the first Doctor, and now finally we have an explanation why!!
Blimey.
Except it doesnt work as an explanation at all... the Doctor's mind had been wiped, so he wouldnt remeber these Doctors... but if he did, why didn't it spark him to remember the past lives and investigate them at teh time? Fan service, but raising more questions than it superficially answers
i enjoyed it, have enjoyed most of this series. Jodie is a wonderful Doctor except for the "derp" face she pulls way too often.
I just with Leigh would tell us what he REALLY thinks!
Now i feel terrible for enjoying it despite the flaws.
Quote from: Leigh S on 02 March, 2020, 10:44:29 PM
Except it doesnt work as an explanation at all... the Doctor's mind had been wiped, so he wouldnt remeber these Doctors... but if he did, why didn't it spark him to remember the past lives and investigate them at teh time? Fan service, but raising more questions than it superficially answers
Given that the Doctor nearly died in that scene and had to be revived using the Elixir of Life, it could be reasonable to assume that his brain didn't remember such a traumatic event (esp. if it had previously been subjected to tampering).
Overall I thought it was a pretty good episode. Yes, many of the problems have already been mentioned so I won't belabor those, but I thought it was pretty weak to have the Doctor threaten to use the Death particle and fail to do so only to have the Doctor step in and do it for her. Maybe I'm the only one that feels that Ko Sharmus was yet another Doctor.
:D
I think the episode could have been saved for me by Jodie going all Chris Morris vs Peter O Hanra Hanrahan when the woman said "We know all about the Death Particle-" "REALLY?" "Yes" "The Death Particle, where did you hear about that, then?" "It's a legend..." "A LEGEND?! Really?" "yeah, a legend about that Cyberman" "The Cyberman who just talked about Cyberium creating the Death Particle in him" - "Thats the one, yes!" "The Cyberman who only just got the Cyberium in him?" "Errr" "And was just talking to the Master about how this is the new plan of the Cyberium?" .. ."err" "
I think drama is like music or dance, and there is a pace and rhythm. You don't pull Death Particles out of your ass and call it good Drama - that one element is indicative of the the whole approach to story telling - make it up as we go along, there's no "architecture" to it, no skill, no flow. We know why Wagner is good, we know why Alan Moore is good... it's story telling. I am at a loss how anyone who can tell the quality in a Wagner/Moore script can be satisfied with the... shoddiness of it all?
I'm not happy to be "on the same side" of all the outraged gammon bleating about PC gone mad/woke/agendas etc.... but subpar drama and cliche are subpar drama and cliche
Quote from: Bad City Blue on 03 March, 2020, 09:58:10 AM
i enjoyed it, have enjoyed most of this series. Jodie is a wonderful Doctor except for the "derp" face she pulls way too often.
I just with Leigh would tell us what he REALLY thinks!
I haven't even bothered watching it this year because I got so bored of the last series. I had wondered if I should have given it another chance, but everything I've read about this Timeless Child episode, here and elsewhere, has led me to be glad I didn't waste my time.
If I feel like watching the show again, I'll dig out my DVDs.
This season did go a bit Chibnally in places but was a HUGE improvement on the last one.
A little off-topic from the current TV series but Big Finish has been running an annual Doctor Who writing competition for the last few years with the winner's entry being released as one of their Short Trips stories. I actually had a story idea in mind I've never seen done and submitted the synopsis, then for kicks wrote the whole 5,000 words and posted it on fanfiction.net, where it's had a decent number of reads though no reviews of comments as yet. I'm keen for any feedback before I submit this years' offering so if any Who fan thinks they might enjoy a 20-minute read with feedback of an 8th Doctor and Ace story, it can be found via this link: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13380830/1/The-Undying-Fire (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13380830/1/The-Undying-Fire)
Well, I just got to this after putting it on ice for a few months, and watched the back half of the latest series in pretty much one go. The usual ups and downs, but I must say the final two-parter had us hooked. Doctor Who remains pretty unique amongst TV sci-fi which is some feat considering how the genre has exploded over the last 10 years.
That was some lore sledgehammer that Chibnall dropped, eh? Wife and I both assumed the more obvious conclusion, [spoiler]which was that the Master was the Timeless Child and the Doctor was the original Time Lord, which would certainly explain the Master's ingrained psychosis and hatred of all things Doctor, so we won't be surprised when the next series pulls the switcheroo and the two of them discover their real identities are the opposite of what the Matrix showed them (said archive obviously having a will of its own). Overall this take on the origins of the Time Lords (which I assume retcons many other stories, TV or otherwise, being no Doctor Who expert) fits quite well within the picture of them that has been painted since the series was regenerated, which I guess could be a good or bad thing depending on your views of its quality since 2005.[/spoiler]
Random thoughts. I don't have any complaints about JW's performance, said derpiness being part of the fun, though I wish the script would stop having her run exposition *to herself* while we look on from the sidelines. I've come to like all the companions, although they might have reached the end of their usefulness in giving the Doctor a "fam"; maybe time for some changes there. This latest take on the Master hovers on just the right side of pantomime for me -- in fact I think that guy is putting in quite a skilled performance -- but the direction as a whole falls on the wrong side of that line once too often, *especially* with the bloody cybermen. When those [spoiler]Time Lord Cybermen walked in lockstep into the Council chamber with their stupid hybrid costumes[/spoiler], it felt to me like there was about to be a musical number.
On the whole, some nice new mysteries to unravel and a Doctor that is still a pleasure to watch.
Anyone seen the Christmas New Year Special yet... I mean it had The Doc in prison. A jail break. Daleks controlled by the govenment. Dalek vs [spoiler]Dalek[/spoiler] action. Captain Jack. Two companions [spoiler]leave[/spoiler]. A Tardis [spoiler]implodes[/spoiler] and yet... it was still quite dull.
How did that happen?
Yeah, it was all a bit flabby and nothingy. Also: impenetrable unless you're already a fan. Some weird casting for the next series also.
It's the same problem that 2005 started with ramped up exponentially - anti-plastic has become a short cutting mantra that leads inexorably to a 20th C scientist cloning a Dalek in his spare time/back bedroom. To a heist that depends on the driver stopping at just the right burger van.... To teleporting Daleks because plot? Who needs a plot? That's where you bury a show, man! It is so defiantly stupid that when it then tries to fill air with "meaningful chats about feelings" you either embrace the stupid because that guy had a mom and kids you know and we should still feel sad for him. Or you hate every sodding second of it's wilful disregard for actually engaging you in what it actually happening rather than what we are all supposed to feel - because the Doctor is FANTASTIC and Jack is IMMORTAL and this is WHAT WE DO!
My only conclusion can be that they've realised if your story is entirely incoherent - a series of non sequitur events that is so skeletal that it can't even stand up to a moments scrutiny, then it has reached a point beyond criticism - if you can't even identify it as a plot, then can you even criticise it as such?
10 out of 10 , best Dr Who ever
Dear oh dear. Even with more time than usual this still felt awfully rushed. The Daleks felt like NO THREAT WHATSOEVER. Considering their ultimate evil, their intelligence, technology etc, you'd think they'd win every now and then? Or at least last longer than an hour.
A three-parter showing the Earth under Dalek rule would have been bloody brilliant - a plucky resistance, humans being mind-controlled and used as slaves, and maybe even a race against time in terms of the Daleks boring into the Earth's core or something.
There's so much talent on display in this show, from a creative point of view, but the scripts need to stretch over a couple of episodes and be allowed to breath a bit.
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 02 January, 2021, 02:21:35 AM
A three-parter showing the Earth under Dalek rule would have been bloody brilliant - a plucky resistance, humans being mind-controlled and used as slaves, and maybe even a race against time in terms of the Daleks boring into the Earth's core or something.
Nah, that'd never work.
The issue for me now is Doctor Who just doesn't feel vital. Hard to know where the blame lies: budget; BBC higher-ups not giving a shit; the wrong showrunner. But whereas with The Expanse I am desperate to see the next episode, I couldn't really give a shit when Doctor Who returns. I hope it will, but it's like TV furniture now. I wish it was better. This Doctor's run has had some great highs and ideas. But it needs a shake-up somewhere—format; run length; scripts—to shine again. (At least they kept the current take on the theme tune, which I still adore.)
Agree re the theme tune, and the title sequence as a whole - it totally harks back to the first four Who themes, while somehow still being it's own thing! Love it,
That was what, 75-minutes? Felt like 75 hours. Tedious and dull. Barrowman was the highlight for us with Noth coming in a close second. My wife is outraged at the departure of Ryan and Graham, Graham mainly, and says she's done watching.
I wanted to love it more than I ended up doing, which is fairly normal I've found with the Christmas / New Year specials. I think I'll give it a re-watch and see if I'm happier second time around. Agree about Barrowman and Noth, although the PM was rather good too. The episode just didn't sing right off the bat though (to mix my metaphors). Fugitive of the Judoon on the other hand was all kinds of awesome straight off.
Having said all that, I'm obviously happy we had the special, the returning characters and a decent send off segment. So don't get me wrong, it's a bit like 2000AD for me, Doctor Who, sometimes awesome, sometimes average but thank goodness it's there and still going!
Bit sad they've bottled it on stripping things back to the Doctor and a companion, because clearly the notion of two women in the show is too much for all the men to deal with. Solution: cast a 54-year-old shouty comedian who's also eleven feet tall to tag along. FFS.
That's a really good point. Just the Doctor and Yaz would have been great. They've never had two women before, plus there's all that Yaz backstory to investigate as well giving them both a lot more character time. I'm sure John Bishop will be good, I just hope he comes in the second half of the season to give the Doc and Yaz some space as a team.
As a Manc I feel obliged to praise the BBC for having the first wool companion in the form of John Bishop.
Life sucks living on the Wirrell, I'm sure he'll jump at the opportunity to go anywhere else in the universe.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 03 January, 2021, 11:43:10 AM
As a Manc I feel obliged to praise the BBC for having the first wool companion in the form of John Bishop.
Life sucks living on the Wirrell, I'm sure he'll jump at the opportunity to go anywhere else in the universe.
Woooo there nelly - if you're going to rip Wirral (my original home turf) lets get some things right.
1) Its Wirral,
The Wirral is the peninsula itself
2) John Bishop isn't a Wirral woolly back he's a Runcorn woolley back (As I recall)
3) We can lay claim to Daniel Craig, John Peel, Boo Radleys, Half Man Half Biscuit and much to my surprise Fiona Bruce
4) Yes anyone who comes from Wirral wants to get out and be:
a) Full on from Cheshire set
b) Full on from Liverpool (me)
Alas all you do is go to the fair at New Brighton and get the tube to the comic shops in Liverpool...
Colin Should be a Tranmere Fan YNWA
Funny that Dara Ó Briain's "something for the dads" line now refers to inserting a middle-aged man into a show designed for children.
Jodie Whittaker reportedly quits after three years as the Doctor (https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/doctor-who-star-jodie-whittaker-23255685)
Just re-watched the new year's special. Weirdly it worked a lot better on the second viewing!
The experience has just been slightly overshadowed though with the internet exploding over that Mirror article...
I won't be at all surprised if that rumour turns out to be true. She's had a torrid time, in terms of her initial casting, the crappy scripts she's had to deal with, being repeatedly undermined in her own show (in terms of direction/scripting/leads), and COVID. Even now, we still don't really know who her Doctor 'is'. But I'd sooner she stayed for another few years and they got a better showrunner in.
Still, I'm sure we can look forward to them now deciding this was a one-off experiment and casting a boring older-then-necessary bloke as the Doctor again and a young female companion for him to trot around space and time with.
Sad if the rumours are true, but I can understand why. Jodie is throwing her everything into role, and it all just seems a confusing mess across all hear seasons so far.
Hopefully, the scripts improve if this next mini-series is to be Jodie's last, and I'd hope that a new Doctor will lead to a change of showrunner.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 04 January, 2021, 09:23:07 AM
casting a boring older-then-necessary bloke as the Doctor again
Highly unlikely that you'll see an 'older' Doctor any time soon — as much as
I liked Capaldi's Doctor, he wasn't great for ratings, toy sales collapsed and a bunch of Who comics got cancelled, so it's fair to say he wasn't a hit with 'the kids'.
On the broader point, yeah — I'd be happy to see Whitaker stick around and Chibnall get shown the door. The reverse would be my nightmare scenario. Although I thought his second season was a big improvement on the first, that was a pretty low bar. This year's special is the first instalment of Nü Who that I haven't bothered with — even the trailer was boring and off-putting, so I'm afraid I'm skipping it.
If Whitaker
is going after the upcoming series, I'm hoping they'll replace her with Chiwetel Ejiofor... just to see what the "no, no, the Doctor has to be a man" crowd trot out as justification for their outrage. :)
The second season was much better. The script where still not up to "standard". One thing it takes me a season or two to get use to the new doctor. Capaldi never worked for me as The Doctor. Hopefully Jodie does not get replaced rather the showrunner should get the boot.
Ejiofor would have made a fine Doctor, but, well, he's already 43. They wouldn't start filming a run with him until next year at the earliest.
I see publications are trotting out their lists of possible Doctors and The Guardian's is quite something:
Tom Rosenthal: 30-something white bloke, and so quite possible, I suppose
Kris Marshall: 47 and discovered last time round how much everyone would hate him getting the role
Phoebe Waller-Bridge: Ahahahaha. No. I mean, Fleabag was great and she's tall (which would help), but why the hell would she effectively demote her career?
David Harewood: Quick! We need to add a PoC to this list. How about that guy from Homeland? JOB DONE.
John Bishop teaser trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlNIbyS3bsA)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 04 January, 2021, 11:17:08 AM
Ejiofor would have made a fine Doctor, but, well, he's already 43. They wouldn't start filming a run with him until next year at the earliest.
I see publications are trotting out their lists of possible Doctors and The Guardian's is quite something:
Tom Rosenthal: 30-something white bloke, and so quite possible, I suppose
Kris Marshall: 47 and discovered last time round how much everyone would hate him getting the role
Phoebe Waller-Bridge: Ahahahaha. No. I mean, Fleabag was great and she's tall (which would help), but why the hell would she effectively demote her career?
David Harewood: Quick! We need to add a PoC to this list. How about that guy from Homeland? JOB DONE.
I think both Harewood and Ejiofor would be demoting themselves.
If they wanted to go black (and perhaps never go back?), the effortlessly weird Richard Ayoade seems the obvious choice to me.
Quote from: sheridan on 04 January, 2021, 12:08:41 PM
John Bishop teaser trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlNIbyS3bsA)
Urgh.
Quote from: Mister Pops on 04 January, 2021, 12:14:19 PMIf they wanted to go black (and perhaps never go back?), the effortlessly weird Richard Ayoade seems the obvious choice to me.
Honestly, if they cast Ayoade as the Doctor, I'm done. I mean, he's
fine, but he's very much an acquired taste and he sticks out like a sore thumb as 'Richard Ayoade' in literally everything he does, from voice acting to comedies to panel shows. I don't think Doctor Who needs to become another vehicle for his shtick.
I remember when they were casting about, eventually picking Matt Smith, and there was talk of the brilliant Paterson Joseph having been in the running.
Don't know if he would be interested, but he is pretty brilliant in everything he does, especially Peep Show, and he can do just about anything that could be asked of him dramatically, comically.
Quote from: Rately on 04 January, 2021, 02:32:42 PM
I remember when they were casting about, eventually picking Matt Smith, and there was talk of the brilliant Paterson Joseph having been in the running.
Don't know if he would be interested, but he is pretty brilliant in everything he does, especially Peep Show, and he can do just about anything that could be asked of him dramatically, comically.
Yeah I'd have loved Paterson Joseph to have got it. Don't get me wrong I was happy with Matt Smith but at the time was disappointed he didn't get it after being hotly tipped. He has a brilliant otherworldly quality mixed with a healthy dose of utterly menacing when he needs to and a light cheeky charm when that's required. If we've going to have to go back to a man - I for on would like another woman to drive the point home that we really need to move past the whining - then he'd be my choice.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 04 January, 2021, 02:40:39 PM
Quote from: Rately on 04 January, 2021, 02:32:42 PM
I remember when they were casting about, eventually picking Matt Smith, and there was talk of the brilliant Paterson Joseph having been in the running.
Don't know if he would be interested, but he is pretty brilliant in everything he does, especially Peep Show, and he can do just about anything that could be asked of him dramatically, comically.
Yeah I'd have loved Paterson Joseph to have got it. Don't get me wrong I was happy with Matt Smith but at the time was disappointed he didn't get it after being hotly tipped. He has a brilliant otherworldly quality mixed with a healthy dose of utterly menacing when he needs to and a light cheeky charm when that's required. If we've going to have to go back to a man - I for on would like another woman to drive the point home that we really need to move past the whining - then he'd be my choice.
Be a quality Doctor, but I'm equally open to another woman Doctor.
With the right showrunner, and Whittaker or another brilliant woman they could blow the show open, and deliver something special.
I would take Anne-Marie Duff if Jodie Whittaker wasn't sticking around. Love her in everything she does, and those eyes convey and say so much.
Paterson Joseph is great, but he's also 56. If he stayed in the role for the usual three series, he'd be in his 60s by the time he's done. They need to skew younger again.
One of those kids from Stranger Things could probably have a lash at sounding British. I think the wee girl is anyway.
It has to be another woman or it will never happen again, I guess some fans would be happy with that
I like to think the only reason Jodie is leaving is so she can be the next James Bond.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 04 January, 2021, 11:39:14 PM
I like to think the only reason Jodie is leaving is so she can be the next James Bond.
Well its the usual 3 seasons thing isn't it. Its the rule now for Doctor Who.
Quote from: judgeurko on 04 January, 2021, 10:00:14 PM
It has to be another woman or it will never happen again, I guess some fans would be happy with that
I'd be bloody amazed if there's another woman as the Doctor. Delighted, but amazed. I suspect they will want to status quo everything as soon as possible.
I enjoyed the last episode and it will be a pity if Jodie is replaced (just as I got into her interpretation of The Doctor).
Quote from: broodblik on 06 January, 2021, 06:06:49 AM
I enjoyed the last episode and it will be a pity if Jodie is replaced (just as I got into her interpretation of The Doctor).
Me too. One of the papers described it as "meat and potatoes Who" which I thought was accurate.
I don't think she has been bad at all. What is needed is a script editor to tell Chibnall, 'This needs work, that needs another draft, this bits crap, this is too soap opera-y, etc.'
I'd be happy with another female doctor as the kids have no issue with her, it's just the middle aged fanboys that hate on her.
The main focus should be on the age / gender / ethnicity of the lead actor.
We can take for granted that the show-runner and scripts will be solid gold.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 05 January, 2021, 08:41:15 PM
Quote from: judgeurko on 04 January, 2021, 10:00:14 PM
It has to be another woman or it will never happen again, I guess some fans would be happy with that
I'd be bloody amazed if there's another woman as the Doctor. Delighted, but amazed. I suspect they will want to status quo everything as soon as possible.
Well if they go back to a man i wont watch. It proves the show doesn't have the courage of its convictions.