Our Man in Hondo - inexcusably racist?

[Steven Denton]

I don't believe Shakespeare would  have chosen Venice, where the Jews were so mistreated, or made our Christian heroes such a bunch of 'drippy over-privileged crowd of welchers and whiners,' if he hadn't intended Shylock to be a tragic figure. I think Shakespeare knew exactly what he was doing in subverting the Jewish stereotype . He presents us with a vengeful usurer, but then he explains his actions and makes him sympathetic, eloquent and tragic.

There is no correct interpretation because it's exactly that - an interpretation - and in many ways, you take from the play exactly what you bring to it.

[Spaceghost]

I just read Tour of Duty: The Backlash which is, via a not particularly subtle allegory, all about racism. I love how Wagner depicts pretty much everyone in Mega City One as a massive racist tw*t. He uses that to expose bigotry as retarded, baseless, mis-directed and anger-driven folly.

This story in particular informs my conclusion that John Wagner is not a racist but he does write about racism.

Now I have no doubt that this Hondo City story contains broad stereo-types that have not aged well. However, I think we need to be very careful about bandying around allegations of racism, especially if we're going to aim them at 2000AD creators and/or William Shakespeare.

Nobody has claimed that John Wagner is a racist.

Not sure about Shakespear though...

[I, Cosh]

I remember my English teacher (a quite marvellous woman) stating that Shakespeare couldn't have been anti-semitic because he was too intelligent. This is the first time I remember encountering the popular fallacy that because racism or bigotry is stupid then only the stupid can be bigoted or racist.

With regards to the matter at hand, it's one for The Moral Maze really and I'm now not sure what I think. Despite reading the story in the Case Files fairly recently it didn't make much of an impression on me. At first I thought this wasn't as objectionable as the Japanese tourists in Robo Hunter. Then again, I've never liked Robo Hunter so there's an implicit prejudice right away and Football Crazy is a story built around milking cheap national stereotypes: silky, bronzed Brazilians; dirty, hacking Italians; arrogant, crap English and so on. In this context, it seems misjudged from a contemporary perspective and certainly not funny but I don't find it indefensible.

Similarly, the Hondo story seems more like a misjudged attempt at a distinctive narrative style than something inexcusable. Is it any more condescending than the empty aphorisms of The Art of Geomancy (a story I love) which is just as broad an effort at giving a strip an Oriental flavour?

I agree with Tordelback's disagreement with Trout's bit about not reprinting. What he said about Wagner and Grant's depictions of Scots is spot on and, I believe, applies equally to Ennis's ubiquitous Irishmen. It's done with an insider's  understanding and affection and almost a desire to celebrate the stereotype and puncture it at the same time. One point I do think worth pursuing is this:

Also, cultural stereotypes don't have the same sinister effect as racial stereotypes.

Is it possible for us to view a Japanese cultural stereotype without ascribing it a racial element? In the aforementioned Football Crazy, we can more easily process the supercilious French or the efficient Germans but, presented with a similar caricature of a non-Caucasian nation do we (by which I mean angst-ridden liberals like me) automatically perceive it as being racially motivated?

NB I'm not saying the portrayals in these strips are equivalent, I've moved firmly into the realm of the hypothetical now. Which is probably a good place to leave it.

The digested post: I don't know. Can we move onto sexism in Monty Python next?

[I, Cosh]

I just read Tour of Duty: The Backlash which is, via a not particularly subtle allegory, all about racism. I love how Wagner depicts pretty much everyone in Mega City One as a massive racist tw*t. He uses that to expose bigotry as retarded, baseless, mis-directed and anger-driven folly.

And this on top of Strontium Dog's ongoing (and contemporary with Blakee Pentax) pleas for tolerance and equality. Jeez.

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

Nobody has claimed that John Wagner is a racist.

Reading through this thread, you alternate between trying not to and basically doing just that.

The most recent example being "it's about on the same level as Jim Davidson."

Hell, you might be right though, I haven't read the story you're talking about for years, if indeed I ever read it.

Not sure about Shakespear though...

He may well have been a racist by today's standards, as would almost anyone from his era. Yet I find no evidence in his work that this was the case.

[TordelBack]

There is no correct interpretation because it's exactly that - an interpretation - and in many ways, you take from the play exactly what you bring to it.

Well indeed, although I might note that this a truism, applicable to literally any text.  And as a non-scholar, my interpretation is that Shakespeare thought his audience would approve of a villainous Jew being utterly ruined by some chirpy Christians, while his daughter converts voluntarily and he is forced to. I don't deny that the character could be read as tragic, especially as he's about the only interesting character in the play, but I strongly suspect that his fate is meant to be both funny and morally satisfying - so perish all grasping Jews.

[exilewood]

If you cut me,do I not bleed?

Accents are funny.

[Spaceghost]

Nobody has claimed that John Wagner is a racist.

Reading through this thread, you alternate between trying not to and basically doing just that.

The most recent example being "it's about on the same level as Jim Davidson."

Didn't I put something like; "I am 100% certain that John Wagner is not a racist."? Sounds pretty conclusive to me.

When I said the style of humour was of a Jim Davidson level I meant it in that it seems to be asking us to find the accent funny in and of itself.

Jim Davidson was the first 'old school' comic, who's material has aged badly, that I thought of.

Not sure about Shakespear though...

He may well have been a racist by today's standards, as would almost anyone from his era. Yet I find no evidence in his work that this was the case.

This was a joke. I have never studied Shakespeare nor have I ever before come across any inference of racism.

As I said in my first post I accept that, due to personal proximity, I may have reacted over-sensitively to Our Man in Hondo. At least it's kicked off an interesting debate.

[Marbles]

You should try reading the freshly reprinted 'Darkies Mob' from Battle/Megazine or seek out 'Force Viper' from 1970's Warlord's if you think Hondo is racist. Banzai!

[Spaceghost]

You should try reading the freshly reprinted 'Darkies Mob' from Battle/Megazine or seek out 'Force Viper' from 1970's Warlord's if you think Hondo is racist. Banzai!

I read Darkie's Mob when it ran in the Megazine a few years back. Yes, it struck me as a bit...dodgy, but it didn't seem as inappropriate as a Dredd strip from 1988.

[Dandontdare]

Have you noticed the recent reprint has been subtitled; "Darkie's Mob - The Secret War of Joe Darkie"? They could just as well put a big sticker on saying "Look, it's just his NAME okay?"

[Steven Denton]

Well indeed, although I might note that this a truism, applicable to literally any text.

I think that it's unfair to call my comment that the Merchant of Venice is interpretable a truism. Let me clarify. I was not being general, I was being specific. It's true that when you review any text you interpret it from a subjective standpoint, whether that is gender, political or historical, but I was suggesting the text was intended to be interpretable and its meaning is left open to the viewer.
For example you can discuss the content of the John Wayne film 'The Green Berets.' From a historical and political viewpoint, whether you either agree or disagree with the pro-Vietnam War politics, or from the point of view of its depiction of race. But any way you look at it, the intent of The Green Berets is clear. I would argue that the intent of Merchant of Venice is not clear and that one of the play's intentions is for the audience to decide for themselves who, if anyone, is wrong and right.

[chris_askham]

You should try reading the freshly reprinted 'Darkies Mob' from Battle/Megazine or seek out 'Force Viper' from 1970's Warlord's if you think Hondo is racist. Banzai!

I read Darkie's Mob when it ran in the Megazine a few years back. Yes, it struck me as a bit...dodgy, but it didn't seem as inappropriate as a Dredd strip from 1988.

But the world has changed a lot since even 1988 - it was a completely different generation. It's not as recent as you seem to be implying. And Darkie's Mob was published probably what - not even 10 years previously to this ?

Interestingly, only ten years or so ago I was creating a small press comic which featured two black guys who were dim-witted hospital orderlies. Was that rascist? I hope not, but I guess it could have been read as such. Would I do the same thing today? Probably not.

[Dark Jimbo]

But the world has changed a lot since even 1988 - it was a completely different generation. It's not as recent as you seem to be implying.

Quite right. '88 really isn't as recent as some keep making it sound - though it may seem obvious to say it. An awful lot's changed. I mean, I was about three years old in 1988 - so quite literally a lifetime ago for some people.

[Richmond Clements]

I was about three years old in 1988

Fucking hell...