Main Menu

The Political Thread

Started by The Legendary Shark, 09 April, 2010, 03:59:03 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

paddykafka

Identify something that the lower orders buy a lot of and then tax the fuck out of it.  Economy saved.

There is an even better solution that I seem to recall being used in a Judge Dredd story some time ago: A Tax on the Air that Citizens Breathe.

:)

The Legendary Shark


If memory serves, the Spanish (?) government recently floated the idea of taxing sunlight in order to profit from solar farms and such.

[move]~~~^~~~~~~~[/move]




Frank

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 17 November, 2018, 03:35:46 PM
Removing import taxes on raw materials and fuel, thus making manufacturing cheaper, would not obliterate manufacturing.

Yeah, but removing import tariffs also makes it cheaper to import goods, rather than manufacturing them domestically. Good luck competing with Ireland, India and Mexico in terms of labour costs*

North's argument, and most political conversation in the UK, is based on catastrophism - the mistaken belief that everything was fine and then we suddenly found ourselves plunged into crisis.

This is, in economic terms, demonstrable bollocks. The UK is the fifth largest economy on Earth; the seventh largest** industrial economy on Earth, to address your specific concern.

The only comparable economy - in terms of population and labour costs - above the UK on either list is Germany, which attained that position while hamstrung by the same trade agreements that are stifling the natural entrepeneurial spirit you, me and Aaron Banks just know lies dormant in the heart every British shelfstacker, waiting only to be set free from the stone, like Excalibur, by the invisible hand of Adam Smith.

North's remedy is incompatible with his diagnosis***


* UK labour costs are already among the lowest in the developed world.

** And South Korea and India are only above the UK by a ballhair, achieving this modest advantage by having, in the latter case, a much larger population, and in both cases, much lower labour costs. Quick show of hands: who wants to take a pay cut so we can brag we're beating SK and India at manufacturing widgets?

*** Say the UK somehow achieved an economic miracle and increased manufacturing by 10% (a fantasy). That would barely affect GDP, almost three-quarters of which comes from what is euphemistically termed 'the service sector' - by which, we mean the City Of London. Basically, the UK stole a fucking ton of stuff while the stealing was good, and we've been playing the ponies with the proceeds ever since.

The UK's economic strength is not translated into a socially equitable society. The UK ranks a lowly 26th among nations in terms of GDP (ppp) - in other words, how much cash there is for every person in the country and what they can buy with that share of national wealth. I suppose cutting import duties on Samsung tellies might make a wee dent in that ranking, but investing in education, the information economy, the social safety net, and increasing wages seem like safer bets, to me

The Legendary Shark


The things it would be cheaper to manufacture could be manufactured and the things it would be cheaper to import could be imported.  This is a problem?

[move]~~~^~~~~~~~[/move]




Frank

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 17 November, 2018, 05:58:32 PM
The things it would be cheaper to manufacture could be manufactured and the things it would be cheaper to import could be imported. 

See absolutely everything else I wrote.



The Legendary Shark

The stuff resting on the woolly initial premise, you mean?

If you meant: "Yeah, but removing import tariffs also makes it cheaper to import some goods, rather than manufacturing them domestically," then I agree.

If you meant: "Yeah, but removing import tariffs also makes it cheaper to import all goods, rather than manufacturing them domestically," then I disagree.

[move]~~~^~~~~~~~[/move]




Frank


The Legendary Shark


Oh, come on. Tell me what you mean and we can discuss the pros and cons from there.

Will removing import duties and tariffs solve every problem? Of course not. Will it solve none of the problems? Of course not.

You know approximately where I stand on government and I know approximately where you stand. All this means is that we come at issues from different directions. I might attack your arguments but I'm not attacking you because I'm virtually certain that, just like me, you want what's best for as many people as possible.

[move]~~~^~~~~~~~[/move]




TordelBack

Alastair Campbell on Marian Finuncane (Ireland's main Sunday radio current affairs chat), championing a People's Vote on Brexit (a bunch of other PR shills hawking their wares on too). This is the nearest thing I have to hope in this whole matter (and it's not much of one), but when I see Campbell weighing in I want to throw my hat at the whole thing. Why do we keep on giving airtime to professional liars and opportunists? Why is there no such thing as quietly slinking off in perpetual disgrace for these people.

IAMTHESYSTEM

Ego for those who have tasted power never lose the appetite for more. It looks like a second Ref is what the Media money is on, May, compromised on her Chequers deal is awaiting the Executioners knife, the Tories civil war would prove disastrous in an Election, so the only way out is to ask for an extension beyond the 29th of March, punt the job back to the public and vote again.  Whether events play out that way, I doubt with recent history being so unpredictable.
"You may live to see man-made horrors beyond your comprehension."

http://artriad.deviantart.com/
― Nikola Tesla

TordelBack

#14845
Like I say, a 2nd vote is the only sliver of hope I can see (any variation of the half-arsed deal is going to explode in short order, simply because its inadequacies compared to EU membership will be obvious to everyone: I'm the last person to bang on about 'sovereignty', but that definitely wouldn't be it), but I wouldn't want to bet on the outcome: Leave's accusations of treason and anti-democratic mandarins would actually have some validity this time. It's a dangerous path, and whatever happens the UK is going to be a political wasteland for a generation, and every right-wing separatist in Europe is going to have ammunition for decades of division and hatred. 

And its the direct descendants of Campbell, the whole caste of Big Lie fuckers, who are to blame.

IndigoPrime

My guess: we will take the WA deal, and it will be a shitshow. This will happen because the PR machine will swing behind it: a combination of May's "ending free movement" thing, spineless MPs getting freaked out and believing there isn't an altearcive, and business backing it under the hope the govt will then head towards EEA. Interestingly, the EU hasn't swung behind deal alone as yet, and keeps noting remain is an option.

I was on the march, but I reckon the people's vote is unlikely, primarily because of Corbyn. If Labour supported one, that's it – game over. There's an instant parliamentary majority for a vote, and remain would probably win. If it didn't, fair enough: we know what the country wants now it has the evidence in place.

Funt Solo

Corbyn always wanted to leave the EU, as evidenced by his somewhat haphazard and notional support for remaining.  I'll tape this up in my window because they keep telling me I should do something:



It's probably his toilet window.
++ A-Z ++  coma ++

IndigoPrime

Corbyn is awful. Lots of people still love him. God knows why. His just dreadful. Mind you, so are most of his followers. If you don't bow down before Dear Leader, they want to tear your face off.

IAMTHESYSTEM

Quote from: TordelBack on 18 November, 2018, 03:21:09 PM
Like I say, a 2nd vote is the only sliver of hope I can see (any variation of the half-arsed deal is going to explode in short order, simply because its inadequacies compared to EU membership will be obvious to everyone: I'm the last person to bang on about 'sovereignty', but that definitely wouldn't be it), but I wouldn't want to bet on the outcome: Leave's accusations of treason and anti-democratic mandarins would actually have some validity this time. It's a dangerous path, and whatever happens the UK is going to be a political wasteland for a generation, and every right-wing separatist in Europe is going to have ammunition for decades of division and hatred. 

And its the direct descendants of Campbell, the whole caste of Big Lie fuckers, who are to blame.

Campbell and Co thought they could win, but they fell victim to history's unpredictable swings. As for political violence, that looks inevitable to me both in Northern Ireland and here in the UK for if a new Referendum vote opts to remain in Europe a lot of people will feel aggrieved. Four million people ticked the UKIP box, and that's a large pool of discontent in the making. Some will be Ex-Soldiers with battle experience in Afghanistan and Iraq, gold dust to any insurgency so things might turn very ugly at some point shortly. We've had one MP murdered, Jo Cox and you have to wonder at the safety implications for others if a new Referendum overturns the first result.
"You may live to see man-made horrors beyond your comprehension."

http://artriad.deviantart.com/
― Nikola Tesla