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General Chat => Books & Comics => Topic started by: AlexF on 18 July, 2016, 05:13:16 PM

Title: Luther Arkwright
Post by: AlexF on 18 July, 2016, 05:13:16 PM
So I've just recently finished reading Bryan Talbot's 'Adventures of Luther Arkwright' (the Dark Horse collected edition). It's the sort of comic that you just have to talk about afterwards, and I'm hoping to find a receptive audience here!

In short, it's blinding. So many ideas, such marvellous art, weirdly compelling characters (some of whom are only in it fleetingly), and I suspect massively influential on a lot of British comics creators who read it as it first came out.

It's also super dense and difficult to follow, to the point that I tried to let it wash over me rather than trying to stay on top of the overarching plot. I wouldn't recommend trying to read it in one go, but I'd definitely recommend it.

Did anyone here read it in small doses wherever it was printed first time around? That must have been something both astounding and frustrating, as I gather it had a tricky publication history, to say the least.

For 2000 AD fans, there's obviously a fair bit of overlap with some of the tone of Nemesis: the Gothic Empire (which Talbot drew, presumably hired on the strength of his Arkwright work). But I reckon there's more than a passing love for Luther Arkwright in the work of Grant Morrison and definitely John Smith, to pick just two names (Invisibles, The Filth and Indigo Prime, I'm looking at you). There's a staggering mix of politics, history and sex along with widescreen hyper-cool action.

Why isn't it more widely known / read?
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Tjm86 on 18 July, 2016, 05:22:59 PM
The Arkwright Integral edition is gorgeous.  Dark Horse did it proud with this edition.  Certainly I would suspect it is well known in these parts, not least for the creator.

I never read them coming out but do remember picking up the GN in the late eighties / early nineties and loving every minute of it.  Just after Talbot's Nemesis run and so much in the same vein in terms of art.  Certainly the story itself is quite dense in places but for all that, a pleasure.  Heart of Empire is very much a different beast but still worth the read.  Not read in one go though?  Personally I found it hard to put down.  Loved it.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Richard on 18 July, 2016, 05:50:31 PM
It's an absolutely fantastic graphic novel, for both story and art. I got it after reading a review in the Megazine about ten years ago and thought it was great. The plot is quite complex what with all the jumping about in time, like the film 21 grams, but if you don't stop and try to work it all out, but instead just keep going, it all comes together and makes perfect sense in time to enjoy the final chapter.

I didn't have time to read it all in one sitting as it's quite long, but I spent all my spare time on it until I finished it. It's a masterpiece. It must have been bloody frustrating to read it issue by issue when it was first published though, as there were very long delays between issues, several months at a time.

The sequel isn't as good, but it's still fun and worth a read.

I've been meaning to read them again for a while actually. It might be time to get on with it...
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: I, Cosh on 18 July, 2016, 06:49:57 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 18 July, 2016, 05:13:16 PM
Why isn't it more widely known / read?
Good question. I would think everyone on here would know and love it as it is such a fantastic piece of work. I have the three volume, Titan-style collections and must've read it for the first time in the late 80s on the back of Talbot's Nemesis work. Not sure why I don't recommend it more as, thinking about it now, it really is in the top tier of British comics. Perhaps its the different path Talbot has taken in recent years which discourages talk of it.

As you say it's very dense but that wasn't so unusual for the time. I particularly remember the whole ego-death and karmic rebirth sequence being a mindblowing experience for the young Cosh.

I'm not sure about a direct influence on Morrison though. I think it's more a case of similar interests and influence (Moorcock and occult esoterica in particular) but looking at it now, it's hard not to see a very significant debt owed by the life and works of Ian Edginton.

As mentioned by others, Heart of Empire is okay but not a patch the original.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: sheridan on 18 July, 2016, 06:57:56 PM
I was lucky enough to be on board the first time it was completed (the Valkyrie publication, as opposed to previous editions where the original story didn't get finished).  I'm not familiar with the Arkwright Integral edition so don't know what gets included in there - does it have the ARKeology material which was published just after Issue 9 of the Valkyrie Press Arkwright?  That had a sketch by Grant Morrison, amongst other things.

Heart of Empire - entirely different but still worth reading.  Can't imagine trying to stop reading the Adventures if it's all available in one book - bit like Maus in that respect.

Just in case it isn't ARKeology (http://www.arkeology.org.uk/index.html) (incomplete).
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Frank on 18 July, 2016, 07:10:08 PM
Quote from: The Cosh on 18 July, 2016, 06:49:57 PM
As mentioned by others, Heart of Empire is okay but not a patch (on) the original

Aaaah. I bought Heart Of Empire and couldn't see what the fuss was about.

Hicklenton was my first Nemesis artist* and I only knew of Luther Arkwright from adverts in back issues of 2000ad, so there wasn't a huge incentive for me to give it another go. I might try and track down the compendium, based on the above.



* like Sláine, whoever your first Nemesis artist happens to be will always be your favourite
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Dandontdare on 18 July, 2016, 07:25:18 PM
I'm surprised Heart of Empire isn't better loved - it may not quite match the first one, but it's still very good.

I like the way you can see Talbot's art visibly get better over the two series, and the obvious parallels to one of my favourite author's Michael Moorcock (who wrote the introduction in the edition I've got).

Hmm .. I think this may be due for a re-read!
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 July, 2016, 07:30:17 PM
I got issue 1 of the Valkyrie series and tried it time and time again really wanting to love it but just finding it baffling. I think that put me off but its good rep meant that when I got back into comics (and tried it (issue 1) again and still found myself baffled) I've always wanted to give it a proper go as I'm told as you get further in it becomes less of a puzzle.

So I recently picked up both omnibusesesesesi in a digital sale. Alas my reading list being what it is I'm still to get to it.

Despite my previous failed attempts I'm really looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Tjm86 on 18 July, 2016, 08:26:55 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 18 July, 2016, 06:57:56 PM
I'm not familiar with the Arkwright Integral edition so don't know what gets included in there - does it have the ARKeology material which was published just after Issue 9 of the Valkyrie Press Arkwright?  That had a sketch by Grant Morrison, amongst other things.

There's quite a lot of extras in the Integral edition.  Most were covered in the last Dark Horse printings.  Looking quickly at the ARKeology material, the answer is yes.  Quite a few of the sketches on the site are in the interview by Bisette.

(http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u429/tim_morris5/IMG_1609_zpsykqvfxaf.jpg)

(http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u429/tim_morris5/IMG_1610%202_zpsyjn1lra9.jpg)

(http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u429/tim_morris5/IMG_1611_zpsjwnuxtnm.jpg)
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: CalHab on 19 July, 2016, 08:23:32 AM
Arkwright is brilliant, but I'm surprised so many haven't read it. I always thought of it as a "set text" for British comics readers. Maybe its erratic publishing history hasn't helped?
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Mikey on 19 July, 2016, 10:18:31 AM
Yeah, it's a stunning bit of work and no mistake. The closest I've come to the same sort of absorption was when I was reading the Sandman trades - though I think Arkwright would stand up better in the long term for sheer inventiveness. I think it was out of print for a while too wasn't it? ISTR it was when I was looking for it in the late nineties, so that might explain why a lot of people hadn't picked it up as second hand copies were hard to come by.

And Heart of Empire is a different sort of beast. It's more straightforward, certainly an easier to digest yarn being way less dense, but the art and design are just lovely.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Link Prime on 19 July, 2016, 10:26:20 AM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 18 July, 2016, 07:30:17 PM
I got issue 1 of the Valkyrie series and tried it time and time again really wanting to love it but just finding it baffling.

I think you sold that to me Colin!

I do love The Adventures of Luther Arkwright, but for me Heart of Empire is the greatest thing since sliced pomegranate.

Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Link Prime on 19 July, 2016, 10:50:23 AM
I must admit, the Arkwright Integral collection does look very tempting. An upgrade for this material would certainly be worth the purchase.
Does anyone know if it includes the first Arkwright story ('The Papist Affair')?

It's included in the Brainstorm collection, the only time it was reprinted to my knowledge.
https://www.amazon.com/Brainstorm-complete-Hackenbush-underground-classics/dp/0950848719
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Timothy on 19 July, 2016, 10:57:46 AM
I think I first read Arkwright in my late teens - which was after Talbot's stint on Nemesis - and I was hugely impressed with the art and the depth of the world-building. Heart of Empire impressed me less when it came out, but when I re-read the whole series earlier this year it stands up remarkably well. Although lengthy it seems very much an epilogue to the first story, and one which revisits much loved characters many years later to examine the changes. I don't know what a reader would make of Heart of Empire if they hadn't read the first book. I suspect they wouldn't get very far.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 19 July, 2016, 11:47:15 AM
Man, I need to get me that omnibus edition...
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: sheridan on 19 July, 2016, 01:00:09 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 19 July, 2016, 10:50:23 AM
I must admit, the Arkwright Integral collection does look very tempting. An upgrade for this material would certainly be worth the purchase.
Does anyone know if it includes the first Arkwright story ('The Papist Affair')?

It's included in the Brainstorm collection, the only time it was reprinted to my knowledge.
https://www.amazon.com/Brainstorm-complete-Hackenbush-underground-classics/dp/0950848719

I have a copy of the Papist Affair, but it isn't in the Brainstorm collection, as I don't own that.  The one I have is similar to the ARKeology comic, but a few years later, and printed in a more small-press manner (you couldn't mix it up with a publication from a mainstream publisher).
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Tjm86 on 19 July, 2016, 03:08:57 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 19 July, 2016, 10:50:23 AM

Does anyone know if it includes the first Arkwright story ('The Papist Affair')?


Unfortunately no.  It is mentioned briefly in the Bisette interview with a sample illustration but that is it.  TBH I've never actually seen it reprinted anywhere (not that it hasn't).
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: I, Cosh on 19 July, 2016, 04:31:08 PM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 18 July, 2016, 07:25:18 PM
I like the way you can see Talbot's art visibly get better over the two series, and the obvious parallels to one of my favourite author's Michael Moorcock (who wrote the introduction in the edition I've got).
I assume this is as much to do with how long it took to finish the first series as anything else but it's definitely something you notice and it's not like it was bad to start with.

Quote from: Butch on 18 July, 2016, 07:10:08 PM
Aaaah. I bought Heart Of Empire and couldn't see what the fuss was about.
I should point out that Heart of Empire is in no way bad, it's just a lot more straightforward. It's a perfectly fine story with nice Bryan Talbot art but everything is laid out very simply. This is obviously a deliberate choice but it's partly the wild layouts, unexpected modes of storytelling and the idea that Bryan himself is having tremendous fun using all those devices that make the original so memorable.

Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 18 July, 2016, 07:30:17 PM
... tried it (issue 1) again and still found myself baffled) I've always wanted to give it a proper go as I'm told as you get further in it becomes less of a puzzle.
This definitely doesn't tie up with my recollections. The first few issues seem relatively straightforward. It's around halfway through that it all goes mental.

Quote from: The Cosh on 18 July, 2016, 06:49:57 PM
I'm not sure about a direct influence on Morrison though. I think it's more a case of similar interests and influence (Moorcock and occult esoterica in particular)
I started having a look at this last night and it turns out that Morrison's own Jerry Cornelius rip-off Gideon Stargrave (which I only really know about from its resurrection in The Invisibles) appeared in the same run of Near Myths as the first episodes of Arkwright.

Quote from: Dandontdare on 18 July, 2016, 07:25:18 PMHmm .. I think this may be due for a re-read!
Hmm. Only 8 quid in the Dark Horse store...
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Satanist on 19 July, 2016, 05:27:04 PM
I've had this up the loft for the last 10 years and still havent read it. I probably should get round to fixing that.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 July, 2016, 09:14:21 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 19 July, 2016, 10:26:20 AM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 18 July, 2016, 07:30:17 PM
I got issue 1 of the Valkyrie series and tried it time and time again really wanting to love it but just finding it baffling.

I think you sold that to me Colin!

I do love The Adventures of Luther Arkwright, but for me Heart of Empire is the greatest thing since sliced pomegranate.

Did I, in my head I sold it on eBay, but then my memory isn't to be trusted!
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Fungus on 20 July, 2016, 09:55:01 AM
It's overly dense for my taste and make no apology for contenting myself with art appreciation, when it became very experimental, a few issues in. That there was a more digestible follow-up makes sense, then. More a curio than a work of genius, I'd say. Nice  to look at in places.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: AlexF on 20 July, 2016, 03:29:06 PM
Great to get such a range of reactions to this stuff! I'm still deciding whether or not to have a go on Heart of Empire. The experimental stream-of-consciousness parts of Arkwright were hard to read at times, but frankly it was that sort of thing that really made me pay attention and latch onto it as a great work.

It's sacrilege to say, especially here, but I was left a bit cold by Grandville (the first book, anyway), in part because the story itself was rather bland. I think I prefer Talbot in whacked-out mode. But the fact that he's always done the comics he wanted, in his own way, is a huge cause for celebration, regardless of whether or not I happen to like it all.

Tale of One Bad Rat is pretty good.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 20 July, 2016, 03:41:21 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 20 July, 2016, 03:29:06 PM
Tale of One Bad Rat is pretty good.

Allegedly bought by Dark Horse because they thought were getting another Luther Arkwright book...
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Link Prime on 20 July, 2016, 08:32:59 PM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 19 July, 2016, 09:14:21 PM
Did I, in my head I sold it on eBay, but then my memory isn't to be trusted!

Yeah, to me!  ::)

Cheers for the info Sheriden & TJM, I wouldn't say The Papist Affair is essential reading, but it would have been nice to have it in the collection.

If anyone spots Arkwright Integral going for a decent price online, give us a heads up.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: TordelBack on 20 July, 2016, 11:10:26 PM
I assembled LA from floppies from various imprints in secondhand boxes over several years. Having read it piecemeal and out of order (my first issue was the one where Luther crashes through a stained glass window for 20 pages) I was pleasantly surprised how coherent it was read in one go!
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 20 July, 2016, 11:20:47 PM
The sequence at what was the end of the original Book 1 GN, where Arkwright walks up the stairs of the cathedral, and the panels get smaller, and we cutback in time, and the narrative drags us back, and back, and back, away from the 'now' of the story... and then he jumps and we get that splash...

One of the most masterful illustrations of what the medium is capable of. So far ahead of its time.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: maryanddavid on 21 July, 2016, 12:22:15 AM
Probably the comic I have read the most times. I bought the original Valkyrie run in FB on Dawson street in two separate chunks.
I bought it on the back of his art on Nemesis and I wasn't disappointed,  blown away by the art, and the story, I only had a vague sense of it, but I could feel the scale of it and it was something that was worth another go.
I reread it over the following years and  there is something extra that I noticed new on every reading.
Its quiet a few years since I last read it, I think its due another.

I'd heartily recommend it, it's easily one of my favourite comics. If anyone is wavering ,go for it, plunge straight in, even its convoluted and erratic publishing history is interesting, never mind the fact that Mr. Talbot must have lived on beans while he wrote and drew this, which IMO is one of the finest comics ever to be published in Britain.

Heart of Empire however suffers from my (thankfully gone-ish) complete-ism problem, I have all the issues bar one and this was before I discovered the joy of collections, so I cant read it. Might be time to get that collection!
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Tjm86 on 21 July, 2016, 06:11:35 AM
Quote from: Link Prime on 20 July, 2016, 08:32:59 PM

If anyone spots Arkwright Integral going for a decent price online, give us a heads up.

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/1616553871/ref=tmm_hrd_new_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=new&qid=1469077733&sr=1-1

£25 inc P&P decent? (For a £45 GN)
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Bazooka Joe on 22 July, 2016, 09:43:54 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 19 July, 2016, 01:00:09 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 19 July, 2016, 10:50:23 AM
I must admit, the Arkwright Integral collection does look very tempting. An upgrade for this material would certainly be worth the purchase.
Does anyone know if it includes the first Arkwright story ('The Papist Affair')?

It's included in the Brainstorm collection, the only time it was reprinted to my knowledge.
https://www.amazon.com/Brainstorm-complete-Hackenbush-underground-classics/dp/0950848719

I have a copy of the Papist Affair, but it isn't in the Brainstorm collection, as I don't own that.  The one I have is similar to the ARKeology comic, but a few years later, and printed in a more small-press manner (you couldn't mix it up with a publication from a mainstream publisher).

It was probably this

(http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff387/gypsum23/phpvvV47WPM.jpg)
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: sheridan on 22 July, 2016, 12:49:22 PM
Quote from: Bazooka Joe on 22 July, 2016, 09:43:54 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 19 July, 2016, 01:00:09 PM
I have a copy of the Papist Affair, but it isn't in the Brainstorm collection, as I don't own that.  The one I have is similar to the ARKeology comic, but a few years later, and printed in a more small-press manner (you couldn't mix it up with a publication from a mainstream publisher).

It was probably this

(http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff387/gypsum23/phpvvV47WPM.jpg)
It is indeed - couldn't remember the name of it!  (The Crystal Palace Exhibition of 1991 if you can't make out the font).

Looks like Bryan's having a problem with his web hosting at the moment, but here's a cached page about it:
web cache from bryan-talbot.com (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YOKEsT9V8XQJ:www.bryan-talbot.com/oldsite/emporium/crystal_palace.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk).
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Link Prime on 22 July, 2016, 02:32:40 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 21 July, 2016, 06:11:35 AM
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/1616553871/ref=tmm_hrd_new_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=new&qid=1469077733&sr=1-1

£25 inc P&P decent? (For a £45 GN)

Good enough!
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: rogue69 on 23 July, 2016, 06:31:47 PM
You should try the Big Finish audio version of Luther Arkwright with David tenant as Luther, Paul Darrow as Cromwell, along with the licks of Siri O'Neal (Rose), Jeremy James (Disruptor/Harry Fairfax/Interrogator/The Five) & India Fisher (Princess Anne)

It sticks very close to the original story & IMO is one of the best audios by Big Finish out side their Doctor Who range
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Colin YNWA on 31 December, 2016, 01:42:17 PM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 19 July, 2016, 04:31:08 PM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 18 July, 2016, 07:30:17 PM
... tried it (issue 1) again and still found myself baffled) I've always wanted to give it a proper go as I'm told as you get further in it becomes less of a puzzle.
This definitely doesn't tie up with my recollections. The first few issues seem relatively straightforward. It's around halfway through that it all goes mental.

Well having finally got around to reading it the impression I had actually holds. Its a bloody work of wonder BUT you can see Bryan Talbot learning so much over the course of the story (not surprising when you consider its long creative history). The opening 2 or 3 parts (I got this as a digital collection so not quite sure where the episode breaks are) are a little confused. The chopping rapid changes between scenes and context making it all a bit puzzling to a linear mind like mine. That said its entirely apt that it is, as what your dealing with is a very complex world and set up and so feeling a little out of sorts as you break into that world could be a masterstroke, rather than the over enthusiasm of a beginner. Who knows... well Mr Talbot maybe.

Anyway after that the plot and story become more settled and the pacing calms things down as the stories finds a focus in the Cromwellian world Arkwright is using to draw out the baddies. Don't get me wrong it still has its indulgences, I found the whole death bit a little over egged and think it would have worked better if it'd be leaner, all be it with the wonderful stream of consiousiness life flashing before your eyes thing (as I read it very possibly wrongly!) - its just not that pleasent to read, especially as the letter is one of the comics weak points.

Over all though incredibly satisfying and I'm so glad I've finally got around to giving this a proper go and it does indeed belong amongst the pantheon of great comics of the 80s.

So looking forward to Heart of the Empire now.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Tjm86 on 31 December, 2016, 04:27:30 PM
All I will say is temper those expectations.  Don't get me wrong, it's a cracking piece of work.  It just doesn't quite live up to its predecessor.  I'm not talking Phantom Menace style here, just ....

First series is definitely the stronger, for all its faults IMHO.  Willing to be called on it mind.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Richard on 31 December, 2016, 11:38:12 PM
The second one isn't as good, but it is told linearly so you will at least find it easier to follow.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Arkwright99 on 04 January, 2017, 03:23:20 PM
Nothing really to add to all the praise heaped thus far on The Adventures of Luther Arkwright except to say that the two influences that leapt out at me when I first read/collected the Valkyrie Comics series were Mike Moorcock (for the multiverse/Jerry Cornelius aspects) and Nic Roeg (for the jump-cutting/cross-cutting/time-jumping aspects). Throw in the astonishing level of detail in Bryan's artwork (particularly as he gets more confident as the series develops) and I think TAoLA has to be a strong contender for 'best graphic novel.ever).

But then I might be ever so slightly biased. ;)
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: sheridan on 05 January, 2017, 12:35:40 AM
Quote from: Arkwright99 on 04 January, 2017, 03:23:20 PM
But then I might be ever so slightly biased. ;)
:D  Like the way your avatar has a time-jumping protagonist in a flying jacket (rather than a dimension-hopping protagonist in a flying jacket).
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Colin YNWA on 19 January, 2017, 06:09:08 PM
So read Heart of the Empire on train journeys to and from London today and have to say I enjoyed it immensely. It's a more considered, better structured and paced than the original, yet strangely I not sure if it's more enJoyable for that?

It lacks some of the chaotic joy of the first, which in retrospect kinda made it world. Two very different yet similar beasts. Both of which have much to recommend them.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: Link Prime on 20 January, 2017, 10:04:10 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 19 January, 2017, 06:09:08 PM
It's a more considered, better structured and paced than the original, yet strangely I not sure if it's more enJoyable for that?

Yeah, I found it a more enjoyable read of the two, evidenced by the fact I have re-read it far more times than TAoLA.
Both highly recommended of course.
Title: Re: Luther Arkwright
Post by: freq on 25 February, 2017, 11:26:29 PM
I just scored Arkwright integral as well, wonderful stuff,beautifully done,hadn`t read Heart of the Empire before but enjoyed it very much, i have the original valkyrie series but they are falling apart with age along with my copies of books 1,2 and 3 which had that really bad binding that caused the book to disintegrate upon the first reading! Arkwright integral was expensive but a bloody good investment.