FFT - Quarter Final 2 - Kingdom vs Nemesis the Warlock

[Blue Cactus]

“depressed Hammerstein”

Was that is Nemesis or in ABC Warriors , The Black Hole?

Oh, he was pretty miserable when he first turned up in Nemesis. Happy to be sent to Mek-quake if I remember rightly.

[Barrington Boots]

Lots of love for Kingdom but I have to vote Nemesis here.
I find the warlock a mixed bag - having come to it a bit late I find some of the early stuff, dare I say it, a bit juvenile with stuff like Grobbendonk and the big invisible alien. Then it suddenly switches into pure horror when Nemesis is blowing up schoolkids and the like, becomes super engaging, and then slowly gets worse.
What is incredible though, aside from the art throughout, is Torquemada himself so my vote goes to him really.

[sheridan]

“depressed Hammerstein”

Was that is Nemesis or in ABC Warriors , The Black Hole?

Oh, he was pretty miserable when he first turned up in Nemesis. Happy to be sent to Mek-quake if I remember rightly.

My initial thought was "surely that's The Black Hole" but then I remembered Talbot's early Hammerstein had given up living and was happy to be destroyed by Mek-Quake.

[Richard]

What Blue Cactus said.

Nemesis

[Southstreeter]

Nemesis

[Funt Solo]

Kingdom's managed to take out Rogue Trooper and Sinister Dexter, so clearly Gene the Hackman's not to be trifled with - and maintains an amazing consistency through eight series. And does this:




But the combined might of Kevin O'Neill, Jesus Redondo, Bryan Talbot, David Roach (with wind machines) and John Hicklenton (to name a few) plus the endless feud between Nemesis and Torquemada are so much part of the firmament that makes up 2000AD - that, in my mind, there's not really a contest here. (I see from the voting that we've probably got something of a classic vs. modern battle on our hands, but maybe I'm missing some nuance.)

Even if you ditch the main books of the saga and just look at the bleak fantasy of The Sword Sinister (aka Elfric's Quest) in the 1981 Sci-Fi Special, or the bizarre Garden of Alien Delights (in Diceman #3), you've moved over into something transcendental, in terms of quality.

Nemesis the Warlock

[AlexF]

Good to be reminded that Torquemada alone is one of the all-time great comics villains. And indeed that the mad swirl of Termight is one of the all-time great comics cities, especially the Terror Tube concept. As good as Kingdom is, it hasn’t quite birthed anything on that level. I will say it matches NtW for catchphrases, though, and that’s not nothing.

Nemesis the Warlock.

[maryanddavid]

Nemesis

[IndigoPrime]

I’ve seen comments about how Nemesis the Warlock is 2000 AD. And they have a point. Few things feel more 2000 AD than those early Nemesis series. They are essential. The thing is, then the strip became anything but that for me. The rot set in not long after Talbot went away and the scripts gradually slipped from amazing to great to OK to “I don’t want to read this anymore”, with the odd outlier (most notably that great story with Candida in the Winter Special). I didn’t like the last series very much at all, wasn’t thrilled about the ending (primarily because it seemed like a spectacularly shitty thing to do to Seth) and really didn’t like the second ending.

Kingdom, as I’ve said before, initially baffled me a bit. It’s also had the odd wobble. But from start to (possible) finish, on a re-read, I love it – almost all of it. I’m not getting halfway through and sighing about how much is left to churn through, while at least thinking the art is really good. It also feels old-school in many ways, despite also being a modern 2000 AD strip. Nemesis is the best of old, but not-great when it comes to whatever might pass for new. Kingdom is somehow the best of old and new. Or something.

I dunno. I’ve not done a count here, and imagine Nemesis will win out because people will be saying things like “it’s Nemesis”. That’s not enough for me with any of these strips. They need to be taken in their entirety, or the really great bits need to be better than the competing strip. Books I-IV of Nemesis alone would be enough to blast away a lesser thrill. But Kingdom? Nope.

So although the old dog is vanishingly unlikely to make it any further, my mouth would be full of wrong if I didn’t put down my vote for Kingdom.

[Proudhuff]

again voting for the mould breaker.... Nemesis

[Magnetica]

I’ve seen comments about how Nemesis the Warlock is 2000 AD. And they have a point. Few things feel more 2000 AD than those early Nemesis series. They are essential. The thing is, then the strip became anything but that for me. The rot set in not long after Talbot went away and the scripts gradually slipped from amazing to great to OK to “I don’t want to read this anymore”, with the odd outlier (most notably that great story with Candida in the Winter Special). I didn’t like the last series very much at all, wasn’t thrilled about the ending (primarily because it seemed like a spectacularly shitty thing to do to Seth) and really didn’t like the second ending.

Kingdom, as I’ve said before, initially baffled me a bit. It’s also had the odd wobble. But from start to (possible) finish, on a re-read, I love it – almost all of it. I’m not getting halfway through and sighing about how much is left to churn through, while at least thinking the art is really good. It also feels old-school in many ways, despite also being a modern 2000 AD strip. Nemesis is the best of old, but not-great when it comes to whatever might pass for new. Kingdom is somehow the best of old and new. Or something.

I dunno. I’ve not done a count here, and imagine Nemesis will win out because people will be saying things like “it’s Nemesis”. That’s not enough for me with any of these strips. They need to be taken in their entirety, or the really great bits need to be better than the competing strip. Books I-IV of Nemesis alone would be enough to blast away a lesser thrill. But Kingdom? Nope.

So although the old dog is vanishingly unlikely to make it any further, my mouth would be full of wrong if I didn’t put down my vote for Kingdom.

I voted Nemesis because it’s so iconic and frankly cool. I would  agree the later books weren’t so great but would include everything up to Book VI (apart from book II) as being top quality. Plus Comic Rock and Killerwatt.

I would argue there are very few long running series that don’t tail off at some point, so I tend to look more at the highs than the lows.

[Funt Solo]

Talking about voting strategy - I've been all over the shop during this contest. Sometimes it's what would I like to see in the next prog (Helium!), sometimes it's the most consistently good (Firekind claims an easy advantage), sometimes the most astounding art, sometimes the highest high (ignoring the lowest low).

Of course, everyone switches off on Nemesis at different times - for me, the final Book didn't really add anything, even though it was interesting to see it back after ten years and great to see Henry Flint's vision of it. But some people switch off for Hicklenton and Roach - whereas I think those books are some of the most challenging and interesting of the epic.

[Leigh S]

Kingdom is definitely more consistent, but for me thats a consistent "what's all the fuss about?".

I say that as someone who thinks Abnett has been pretty much critical to the comic for a quarter of a Century now - possibly more important than ever with Blink and the Out and to a lesser degree Feral and Foe being pretty much the only recent new stories that hve engaged me.

Nemesis certainly has all the faults of Mills work, but its also the best example of his genius and I wouldnt be here if it wwasnt for that energy - Kingdom's energy feels like a fumbling about to try and "do" a 2000AD story, but with a fraction of the ideas, many of which feel like they are just adjacent to other stories that we have seen before.

So Nemesis the Warlock

[Richard]

But some people switch off for Hicklenton and Roach - whereas I think those books are some of the most challenging and interesting of the epic.

Purity's Story has a brilliant scene where Nemesis looks into the future and sees what fate has in store for him, a future he can't avoid even though he now knows what it is, and it chills him to the bone and totally demoralises him. We don't find out what that is until Book X, but that scene is written in a way that makes the unknown seem terrifying and dreadful. For me it's one of the strongest moments in the entire series.

[Colin YNWA]

I think the latter voting might have ended this as a competition, but boy oh boy has it been a right ol' tussle and a lot closer than I was expecting. Who knows what final day voting will bring... well we will in the morning as it goes, see you then....