Double wraparound cover for Lawless, which very much needs to be collected—and soon. This was a breathless and exciting double-length penultimate episode, in what for me has become the Meg's standout strip. But fuck me, there was a lot of shitting swearing in the fucking thing. Fuck! (No drokks in the colony planets, apparently.) Looks like Damned is ending next month, too. So 'all change' for 377 (although what's coming looks pretty good).
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r182/Caliban_photos/375_zpsf2cjcibu.jpg)
A stitch together of scans of my copy. Some conscious coupling of train carriages
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 13 August, 2016, 11:41:36 AM
No drokks in the colony planets, apparently.
Except for "Hotshots, Motherdrokkers!" strangely...
Solid Dredd and 18 pages of Lawless are worth six quid of anyone's money so Blunt, Sweary Vampires and SinDex are free!
Not sure if my logic holds up but I guess in a longwinded way I'm saying this month's Meg is even more of a bargain than usual.
I liked how this story addressed the issue of [spoiler]Dredd's age and health[/spoiler], while also being quite gruesome.
Do we catch a brief glimpse of a denuded little Joe in Carousel?
And is the story a Logan's Run reference?
No, and no idea.
Wont get the meg in my hands until wednesday but jovus grud on a greenie that's a nice cover!
So, now I know what will be me Meg cover of the year.
I do love a good wraparound cover - that is wonderful.
Quote from: eamonn1961Do we catch a brief glimpse of a denuded little Joe in Carousel?
Yup, we finally get to see what's under Dredd's helmet.
Quote from: eamonn1961 on 14 August, 2016, 09:58:09 AM
And is the story a Logan's Run reference?
The name probably is :)
Good solid Meg, so we get to see under the helmet at last... :o
Quote from: eamonn1961 on 14 August, 2016, 09:58:09 AM
And is the story a Logan's Run reference?
Seems to be the most obvious.
Lawless is just great. And the artwork never ceases to blow me away, I love it.
How good is Lawless
How good is Lawless
Double Lawless is just a delight and makes the Meg an absolute bargain. Seriously there are very few comics out there anywhere near as good as this (mind if you like Lawless try Copperhead from Image, its almost as good). The action is perfectly choregraphed and Abnett and Winslade drop in some nice character touches into this rip roaring episode.
Everything else pales... but not too much in two cases. Another superb Dredd from Mike Carroll, a great little one off that has a very creepy way of telling us not to worry about how old Dredd is.
Blunt is likewise superb, really enjoying this thrill now and its adding some lovely twists. Careful with that co-evolutionary biology mind. We all know auturistic evolution has long since been dismissed hasn't it (well it was in 1996 when I last studied this... 20 years is a long time in science!... if not evolution...)
Retreat of Swearysplattysplurge is still there, I'll try to give it a re-read at some point hey.
3 out of 4 ain't bad and if I didn't have the contents of the floppie that would be an absolute boon as well.
Echoing the Lawless love. Can't wait for the collected edition!
Very good Meg indeed. Good work, droids!
I pretty much agree with everything Colin-sensei say's...except for ROTD. I'm thoroughly loving this Universal Horror send up, it's quite delightfully mad!
Glad to see that I'm not the only one enjoying Lawless at the moment. The first thing I'm going to do once this current series is finished is go back and read it all again (including Insurrection). Enjoying the story, the art and the characters.
Was a good Dredd. Has there been much talk about rejuvenation treatments in previous stories? (I've got a huge gap in my JD collection between 2002-2014 so I'm not sure if it's a newish concept for MC1).
Blunt is coming along nicely. I always enjoy the art of Boo Cook. The whole thing reminds me of a cross between the Wilderlands storyline and a Cursed Earth story.
I've lost track of Realm of the Dead, not quite my kind of thing, but will give it a re-read when the final part drops.
Oh, and I'm really enjoying the Sinister Dexter reprints at the moment.
Quote from: colindean on 20 August, 2016, 07:02:51 AM
Blunt is coming along nicely. I always enjoy the art of Boo Cook. The whole thing reminds me of a cross between the Wilderlands storyline and a Cursed Earth story.
Yeah it has many familiar origins but somehow I'm finding it manages to remain fresh. The more I think about the strip the more I find stuff to like and while I'll re-read RotD out of morbid curiosity rather than hope I'm really looking forward to re-reading Blunt at some point as I suspect already it'll rise another notch when we get the whole thing.
Quote from: colindean on 20 August, 2016, 07:02:51 AM
Has there been much talk about rejuvenation treatments in previous stories? (I've got a huge gap in my JD collection between 2002-2014 so I'm not sure if it's a newish concept for MC1).
I think Dredd previously had a 'rejuv' after Necropolis. It was kind of mentioned in passing as an explanation of why his face wasn't all scarred anymore but nothing specific about it was seen.
Quote from: WhizzBang on 20 August, 2016, 07:46:47 AM
Quote from: colindean on 20 August, 2016, 07:02:51 AM
Has there been much talk about rejuvenation treatments in previous stories? (I've got a huge gap in my JD collection between 2002-2014 so I'm not sure if it's a newish concept for MC1).
I think Dredd previously had a 'rejuv' after Necropolis. It was kind of mentioned in passing as an explanation of why his face wasn't all scarred anymore but nothing specific about it was seen.
I realise this interests
nobody else, but the treatment to which Dredd submitted following
Necropolis [1] was a cosmetic procedure, intended to
repair damage rather than
restore youth.
The machine is clearly labelled DERMAGRAF, as in skin graft, and the technician makes it clear he's repairing damage for
cosmetic reasons. An Ennis character later referred to this as a rejuve
[2], but Ennis's entire stint on Dredd can be summed up as misunderstanding what Wagner had written and getting it just
slightly wrong when he tried it himself.
I'm not sure
rejuve means what we assume it does. It might only be a cosmetic procedure - why else would people pay so much for Stookie, which restores
youthful vigour as well as looks - and only
temporarily, at that?
I would have preferred that Dredd kept the scars from his brush with the Sisters. I'd gotten used to him walking around looking like a pepperami, and that felt like it was in keeping with the way stuff that happened to 2000ad characters was permanent and had repercussions. This was at a time when Johnny and Wulf were still dead and
Rogue Trooper was still on his first mulligan ...
[1]Nightmares, prog 702, by Wagner & Dillon
[2] Death Aid, prog 711, by Ennis & Ezquerra - cheers, Jayzus!
To be fair, the reboot of Johnny Alpha was originally billed as previously untold tales and it was over 20 years before he was actually resurrected properly.
The permanency of death in 2000AD was always something that I loved and set it apart from US comics (also the short life expectancy of most of Dredd's adversaries) but I forgive the Johnny Alpha comeback because it has provided us with hundreds of pages of Wagner/Carlos magic which should never be anything other than wholeheartedly embraced.
Rogue Trooper, Robohunter etc reboots not so clever.
Rebooted Strontium Dog wasn't billed as untold tales—it was billed as an accurate account versus the 'hearsay' we'd previously experienced. In reality, this of course meant 'Wagner gets to use his TV script for something', and that first tale in particular seems to sit in a slightly different universe to the rest of Strontium Dog. The computer historian angle seems to have gradually died a death though, with 'new' SD essentially becoming a continuation of the original run.
As for reboots in general, I'm not against them when they work. Fr1day was fine for that very first run, but then went very wrong when Gibbons departed. And the IDW Rogue was an excellent foundation to my mind. (And this is coming from someone who's not generally a fan of that strip.) I suppose the key is in retaining the spirit of the original (IDW) or creating something with a similar concept that's compiling (Fr1day). The Robo-Hunter stuff by Millar achieved neither (although the Hogan/Hughes run came close).
An enjoyable Meg, not always the case, and a quicker read than normal.
Lawless is clearly crafted and draughted :) with love and it shows. Worthy too of the cover, even if that plays fast and loose with the actual events in this episode. But I've come to enjoy covers that grab your attention and don't worry too much.
Blunt felt like a mismatch, quite 'flat' storytelling (especially given the hallucinogenic element) but redeemed by Cook's detailed art. I lingered over many panels and was rewarded for it.
Don't read that horror thing.
Yet again S & D in the floppy was great, Clarke's crisp art and Abnett's superior wisecracking have fully converted me to this strip. Grand.
Best of the bunch for me is Dredd. Of course Dredd can be rejuved - it's the future! Such an important one-off feels like it should be in the Prog, but that's hardly a complaint.
I am not sure about anyone else, but I have a problem with this rejuve treatment. It seems just all too convenient. But more than that, given the comment by the Med Judge last month (that Dredd is good to carry on for a few more decades), it is completely unnecessary. I thought that was a much better way of handling it and I don't see why you would do both.
On the upside, hopefully this will now be the end of the debate. I guess there will need to be a passing reference to it in the Prog to bring non-Meg readers up to speed (what do you mean you don't read both???)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 20 August, 2016, 11:41:11 AM
Rebooted Strontium Dog wasn't billed as untold tales—it was billed as an accurate account versus the 'hearsay' we'd previously experienced.
Actually Trent is correct - there was a series of Strontium Dog stories billed as being set before Johnny died, including The Kreeler Conspiracy, Traitor to his Kind, Blood Moon and the Mork Whisperer. It was the Life and Death of Johnny Alpha which was positioned as setting the record straight, revealing what really happened in "the Final Solution".
I don't think the depiction of Dredd's rejuve treatment should necessarily be taken as canon. It seemed to me more like something of a playful 'what if' kind of episode, done for the neat idea of the 'monster' quarry turning out to be Dredd.
But it IS in canon though...
Quote from: Banners on 23 August, 2016, 07:41:54 AM
I don't think the depiction of Dredd's rejuve treatment should necessarily be taken as canon. It seemed to me more like something of a playful 'what if' kind of episode, done for the neat idea of the 'monster' quarry turning out to be Dredd.
I certainly hope this was the intention, because I thought it was the worst Dredd story I've read in many years. A rueful comedy narrator might have made all the difference, but as it was this was a clumsy re-tread of In The Bath and that Cursed Earth bunker story from last year that more importantly risks making Dredd something less than human. Complete muscular replacement? What about all those honed muscle reflexes, what about the twinges and strains, the deep bullet and knife scars? These are all fixed now, apart from the 'bones and organs'? I've no problem at all with Dredd being given an annual medical refresh, but there was no need to go so far or so explicit as this.
I liked the clever in-jokes on the first page, with references to the '122' problem, and assumed this tone would continue... it didn't. A rueful comedy narrator recounting the story to other perps Pretzel Logic style would have gone a long way. I'm generally a Carroll fan, but for my money this was an awful misstep.
Everything else in the Meg was grand, however, especially Lawless and the Sin Dex floppy.
Quote from: Magnetica on 23 August, 2016, 07:15:45 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 20 August, 2016, 11:41:11 AM
Rebooted Strontium Dog wasn't billed as untold tales—it was billed as an accurate account versus the 'hearsay' we'd previously experienced.
Actually Trent is correct - there was a series of Strontium Dog stories billed as being set before Johnny died, including The Kreeler Conspiracy, Traitor to his Kind, Blood Moon and the Mork Whisperer. It was the Life and Death of Johnny Alpha which was positioned as setting the record straight, revealing what really happened in "the Final Solution".
Not quite. The Kreeler Conspiracy used the same sort of future history framing device as Halo Jones to allow it to get away with rewriting some of the strip's history. The later ones, up to Life & Death, were simply untold stories dotted around the strip's timeline.
I wouldn't worry too much about the rejuve issue. I imagine it will never be referenced again, and other artists will continue to depict Dredd as an ageing, scarred monstrosity.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 20 August, 2016, 11:41:11 AM
As for reboots in general, I'm not against them when they work. Fr1day was fine for that very first run, but then went very wrong when Gibbons departed. And the IDW Rogue was an excellent foundation to my mind.
Another thumbs up for the IDW Rogue Trooper from me.
Real shame that it didn't sell in any great numbers as I would of loved an ongoing series!
Quote from: Spaceghost on 23 August, 2016, 09:42:09 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about the rejuve issue. I imagine it will never be referenced again, and other artists will continue to depict Dredd as an ageing, scarred monstrosity.
As Mike pointed out when he pitched the story, Chief Judge Goodman is shown leaving a rejuvenation clinic 'after his monthly treatment' in the first panel of the first page of The Day the Law Died. So there is certainly historical precedent for Judges of a certain age receiving this kind of rejuve.
Interesting. Puts The Long Walk in a different light, a question of attitude (eg. Minty) or "extreme" age... Also: well done that Carroll droid :)
Quote from: Cyber-Matt on 23 August, 2016, 01:30:31 PM
Quote from: Spaceghost on 23 August, 2016, 09:42:09 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about the rejuve issue. I imagine it will never be referenced again, and other artists will continue to depict Dredd as an ageing, scarred monstrosity.
As Mike pointed out when he pitched the story, Chief Judge Goodman is shown leaving a rejuvenation clinic 'after his monthly treatment' in the first panel of the first page of The Day the Law Died. So there is certainly historical precedent for Judges of a certain age receiving this kind of rejuve.
Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that. I don't have a problem with Dredd receiving the treatment, and I enjoyed the story, I just couldn't imagine that a memo had gone out letting all prospective Dredd artists know that they should draw him looking a bit younger from now on.
I suppose the acid test will be if and when Leigh Gallagher draws the old bugger again, with or without his trademark prune face.
Quote from: Cyber-Matt on 23 August, 2016, 01:30:31 PM
Quote from: Spaceghost on 23 August, 2016, 09:42:09 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about the rejuve issue. I imagine it will never be referenced again, and other artists will continue to depict Dredd as an ageing, scarred monstrosity.
As Mike pointed out when he pitched the story, Chief Judge Goodman is shown leaving a rejuvenation clinic 'after his monthly treatment' in the first panel of the first page of The Day the Law Died. So there is certainly historical precedent for Judges of a certain age receiving this kind of rejuve.
Understandable, but I'm with TB on this one. IMHO, and as a Grumpy Old Fecker myself, it was the aging process and Dredd's reaction to it that gave the last decade of Dredd it's most interesting aspects, I feel kinda cheated by this 'rejuve' a bit like the DC/Marvel 'oh he's dead, oh he's alive again' slock.
I've always found the Car-Roll droid to be one of our best writers and I'm sure that will continue, however a spritely Stoney-Face is the last thing I want to see.
I think we can assume that there's only so much a rejuve can do, otherwise there'd be no point in illegal Stookie gland use and full body transplants for rich eldsters.
Quote from: M.I.K. on 23 August, 2016, 04:30:55 PM
I think we can assume that there's only so much a rejuve can do, otherwise there'd be no point in illegal Stookie gland use and full body transplants for rich eldsters.
That
was the general state or limit of rejuvenation until this month's Meg story. Now that they can rebuild organs it's a different ball-game.
Quote from: Tordelback on 23 August, 2016, 08:38:31 AM
Quote from: Spaceghost on 23 August, 2016, 02:54:42 PM
Quote from: M.I.K. on 23 August, 2016, 04:30:55 PM
there's only so much a rejuve can do, otherwise there'd be no point in illegal Stookie gland use and full body transplants
I don't have a problem with Dredd receiving the treatment
I've no problem at all with Dredd being given an annual medical refresh
All of the above; just felt a little
cursory.
I can see the thinking behind that -
like ripping off a plaster, it's better if you do it quickly and move on - and doing it in the
Megazine means most readers will hear about it second hand, as something that already happened*, without suffering the
wailing of teeth witnessed above.
It's a bit rubbish, but that's it done now.
* I bet folk will still be creating threads asking how the problem of Dredd's ageing should be addressed for years.
What surprises me is that no one noticed we have clear evidence Dredd has a sex-shooter -
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/schlong_zpscucrawfi.jpg) (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/burlearth/media/schlong_zpscucrawfi.jpg.html) (http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/schlong2_zpsd6fjarhh.jpg) (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/burlearth/media/schlong2_zpsd6fjarhh.jpg.html)
Where's the 'expected' out-cry about that?
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 23 August, 2016, 06:18:42 PM
What surprises me is that no one noticed we have clear evidence Dredd has a sex-shooter -
Where's the 'expected' out-cry about that?
Are you sure?
Quote from: eamonn1961 on 14 August, 2016, 09:58:09 AM
Do we catch a brief glimpse of a denuded little Joe in Carousel?
No foreskin. Shalom, Joseph.
Quote from: Butch on 23 August, 2016, 06:25:26 PM
No foreskin. Shalom, Joseph.
Though plenty of helmet, naturally.
Not often we get to see Dredds night stick...
I'll confess to being mildly amused by the hand-wringing and teeth-gnashing over the whole 'Dredd ages in real-time' thing, whilst there is a considerable murmur of discontent over the fact that an artist has chosen to depict Anderson as if she might actually be a woman in her 50s.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 23 August, 2016, 06:59:24 PM
I'll confess to being mildly amused by the hand-wringing and teeth-gnashing over the whole 'Dredd ages in real-time' thing, whilst there is a considerable murmur of discontent over the fact that an artist has chosen to depict Anderson as if she might actually be a woman in her 50s.
No complaints from this corner - I think Dyer and Doherty's version of Anderson is outstanding - even better than Dowling's. Along with Beeby's script it suggests a whole new exciting phase for a character that I had grown completely bored with.
And just to be clear about the rejuve thing, I have never been against the idea of Dredd being kept on the street through medical advances, and I admire the willingness to tackle the issue directly and succinctly. I just think that this was a poor way to do it, jettisoning a whole aspect of the character (his basic humanity and mortality) in an offhand SF-gimmicky Lazarus-Pitty way and with an uneven tone that just left me feeling cheated of a potentially momentous development.
And again, I respect and enjoy all the creators involved. This just wasn't for me. At all.
Quote from: Tordelback on 23 August, 2016, 08:44:13 PM
No complaints from this corner - I think Dyer and Doherty's version of Anderson is outstanding
To be clear, I wasn't having a specific pop at anyone on this thread, or the prog one. Everybody is obviously entitled to like or dislike anything they damn well please, I'm just curious that some fans seem able to simultaneously gush over Dredd's real-time ageing whilst simultaneously expecting Cass to permanently exist in some sort of late-twenties/early thirties psychic hottie limbo.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 23 August, 2016, 09:13:57 PM
... psychic hottie limbo.
Now if
that was an Olympic event the past few weeks would have passed more pleasantly.
Quote from: Tordelback on 23 August, 2016, 09:29:37 PM
Now if that was an Olympic event the past few weeks would have passed more pleasantly.
Is Ian Gibson still doing commissions? :-)
Quote from: Tordelback on 23 August, 2016, 08:44:13 PM
jettisoning a whole aspect of the character (his basic humanity and mortality) in an offhand SF-gimmicky Lazarus-Pitty way and with an uneven tone that just left me feeling cheated of a potentially momentous development.
I'd have liked it to be less momentous.
Since Chaos Day broke Dredd emotionally, Al Ewing's left him bleeding at the bottom of a set of stairs, Rob Williams cracked his head open like a coconut after a 24 hour beating, a huge monkey broke every bone in his body, and Mike Carroll actually
killed him.
If anyone had been planning this dip in the fountain of youth, there were a dozen opportunities to surreptitiously get the readers used to the idea that a different part of Dredd had been repaired good as new, one limb or organ at a time.
It would have been a fun game to keep track of all the different bits of Dredd that had been replaced with cybernetics and lab grown tissue over the years, and it would have felt more organic - a little less like being told he'd found a magic whistle.
Yeah, all that. What I meant was that if 'the ageing fix' was going to be tackled directly and succinctly, I'd have preferred something involving important character or story development.
As it was, this story felt like it should have been presented as a MegaCity legend (did you hear that Dredd gets all his skin and muscle taken off and replaced once during totality at each full solar eclipse, and like a moulting crab for that one moment only he can be killed), but was delivered as a simple fact. Which just seems a dull waste, even as soft reboots go. Either leave well alone and gradual, or make the change in status quo momentous. This does neither.
Great Meg, I thought the rejuve tale was good too, The Wilsher Droid is a cracking artist.
Its not as if he hasn't had a complete make over before, in 'Nightmare' prog 702 over a few pages he went from The Dead Man to good old Joe again.
The tech exists to clone and birth (right term?) children ready to enter the Acadamy of Law, new organs or a new cling film of skin shouldn't be a such a leap?
The Dead Man/Necropolis/Nightmares is exactly what I mean when I say 'momentous'. And I've no problem with the technology existing.
But consider that every scar, every wrinkle that Dredd has acquired since then has just been erased. And any future ones presumably will go the same way. No more craggy, aching Dredd, this is the static, renewable version from now on. And I think that magnitude of change merited something better than '..and the hideous skinless creature preying on the raiders was... Judge Dredd!!!!'.
I feel shitty moaning about a Carroll story, when he writes a damn good Dredd, and it's clear this development comes with the Betelgeusian seal of artisan thrillmaking approval. But I genuinely think it was a bad way to tackle "the 122 exit".
"Someone needs to put up a sign". Well, someone did, I just don't like what it says
Quick addendum: I suspect I would have enjoyed this more had it it been part of the Every Empire Falls saga - a solution to Dredd's injuries from Thorn, for example.
Quote from: Tordelback on 23 August, 2016, 11:57:11 PM
Quick addendum: I suspect I would have enjoyed this more had it it been part of the Every Empire Falls saga - a solution to Dredd's injuries from Thorn, for example.
I assumed that's more or less what it was addressing, in a round-about way along with Dredd's physical history, but I can see the point - especially with the last moments of
Reclamation being Hershey's sombre words,
"Mega-City One is dying. We can't go on like this". It seemed a ripe moment for that kind of cross-cutting soliloquy between scenes just as Dredd is getting out of the drier.
It''s notable that Mike C. all ready had a trial-run of the
In the Bath style set-up with
Sleeping Duty - prog# 1956.
Quote from: Tordelback on 23 August, 2016, 11:53:28 PM
I've no problem with the technology existing.
But consider that every scar, every wrinkle that Dredd has acquired since then has just been erased. And any future ones presumably will go the same way. No more craggy, aching Dredd, this is the static, renewable version from now on.
That's pretty much where I am too.
Used right, Dredd's newfound indestructibility could actually provide new storytelling opportunities. Used wrongly, he's just Captain Scarlet.
The rushed and perfunctory nature of
Carousel felt like the latter, but let's see whether this signals a change in tone or if it's just something that had to be got out the way and is never mentioned again.
As interesting as the story itself is the fact it wasn't written by John Wagner, which is probably a more significant sign than the one alluded to in the story.
I think people are making way too big a deal about this - we all know Dredd can still jump out of H-wagons in his 70s because of y'know "future medical science stuff". I'm sure Messrs Wagner, Carroll et al get a bit tired of our continual nit-picking obsession with the nuts and bolts of exactly how it's done, so we get an explanatory story with the subtext "OK, that's how it's done - can we just move on now?"
It doesn't change anything - there's no "newfound indestructibility" it's not "momentous", it's just a peek behind the scenes at what Dredd probably does every few months to keep in shape.
While some have found it "rushed" or "perfunctory" I think the opposite - did it really deserve a full story on it's own? A couple of panels in another story would have done. Still, it's a good excuse for a "Grud he's a tough bastard" story
Yeah, there's a whole spectrum of opinion, and people are just expressing theirs.
I'm aware I'm at the extreme end of the spectrum, given how many folk thought scooping out Dredd's brain and sticking it in Rico's body was the ideal storytelling solution to the question of Dredd's age.
The solution itself is obviously acceptable.
I'm 100% behind TB on this and glad he has taken the time and effort to articulate his (my) POV. Well done sir!
I'm also behind Jim on this one as I've long argued to see an aging Anderson and the effect of the menopause on her Psi talent...
I really enjoyed that Dredd tale as it proved that, even looking like Frank out of Hellraiser, Dredd could still kick serious perp arse! :lol:
Quote from: Dandontdare on 24 August, 2016, 08:26:44 AM
It doesn't change anything - there's no "newfound indestructibility" it's not "momentous", it's just a peek behind the scenes at what Dredd probably does every few months to keep in shape.
Yep - this does it for me.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 24 August, 2016, 06:26:35 PM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 24 August, 2016, 08:26:44 AM
It doesn't change anything - there's no "newfound indestructibility" ...
Yep - this does it for me.
So what exactly does kill Dredd these days? In the last four years, Bullets and artillery shells have ripped so many holes in Dredd that Med Division probably have enough leftover chunks they could build a new Dredd.
Lose an arm, they can regrow it (Logan); lose an eye, get bionics
(CotDamned). That only really leaves him vulnerable to brain damage, and even that didn't finish Fargo. Unless Dredd gets killed somewhere other than MC1
(Grindstone Cowboys), he's walking away.
Nobody expects the title character of a strip to die, but until last week there was always the idea a makeover wasn't the kind of thing that would interest Dredd. While lots of weird and outlandish stuff happened
around Dredd, he's an island of stoicism and recalcitrance.
There was always the idea that Dredd's refusal to think of himself as anything special would mean infirmity might do what we all know no assassin's bullet ever could.
That's what
some readers felt was significant and valuable about the unique way Dredd experienced time in the same way as ourselves.
That's no longer the case,
and that's fine, but the passing of an aspect of the strip that has been so important and so discussed over the last
30 years felt like it probably warranted more than a
so there*.
* As I make clear above, that doesn't mean I wanted the solution to be part of some grand narrative - where Dredd has to take stookie to help him save the city or defeat Judge Death (or something) - just something considered and consistent with the nature of the character and the (recent) tone of the strip.
Reading all that back, I sound like I'm on the verge of tears. I'M FINE WITH ALL OF IT, honest.
Hey, if he can shoot himself in the chest, be killed (and revived) by Nige the Opressor, turn into a zombie and a werewolf and back again, I'm fine with this.
Recent tone? You either want the history and that it's the same character, or you don't.
The weary old Dredd thing worked for a while, but unless you're actually going to kill of the character it starts becoming ridiculous and a bit of a dead end.
Quote from: Steve Green on 24 August, 2016, 08:53:27 PM
The weary old Dredd thing worked for a while, but unless you're actually going to kill of the character it starts becoming ridiculous and a bit of a dead end.
Yeah more of this agreeing thing from me. It really worked for a good time but if its not going anyway, while it can't go away push it right to the back I say.
As for all the damage Dredd takes and recovers from - that's comics... not actually that's hero-based genre stuff. The only thing that bugs me is that it again gets a bit tired after a while. Its like its the only way writers feel they have to show Dredd challenged and facing a tough test is too beat the snot out of him. I'm sure some of the great talent writing the character can come up with something else?
Just cos often various writers like to see him pushed to the edge they always keep it on the bounds of creditability...or at least let us suspend disbelief. Its quite clear that if some thing hit Dredd and killed him off he'd be dead, well until Rico brought the Crystal of Snazzwuzz to revive him.
Quote from: Steve Green on 24 August, 2016, 08:53:27 PM
You either want the history and that it's the same character, or you don't
Again, like everyone else, I'm absolutely fine with
the method chosen, which is consistent with the established technology of the strip.
I'll let my explanation above be my last words on the topic because the volume of words I've devoted to this
far exceeds the tosses I give. It's settled now and didn't really matter anyway.
I loved the two guns held to Doc Carousel's eye sockets and the high level of gleeful, lusty bloodshed that I haven't previously expected from Carroll but which is rapidly becoming his authorial signature. Willsher's anatomically correct Visible Dredd is great fun too.
We'll have to add this to our list of
Times We've Seen Dredd's Face.EDIT: I'm fine with the damage inflicted on Dredd, Colin. I only mentioned it to illustrate what (I thought) vulnerability to ageing brought to Dredd that was so unique, and therefore valuable
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 24 August, 2016, 09:16:39 PM
As for all the damage Dredd takes and recovers from - that's comics...
Indeed. Let's not forget that he was shot
right through the head at the start of 'The Day The Law Died' and was incapacitated for about an episode and a half...
Quote from: Steve Green on 24 August, 2016, 08:53:27 PM
The weary old Dredd thing worked for a while, but unless you're actually going to kill of the character it starts becoming ridiculous and a bit of a dead end.
This is a
very good point. I'm very bored of the 'weary Dredd' style of non-Wagner strip too, and had rather hoped Titan/Enceladus brought that trope as far as it could go (without killing him). On my ongoing Meg catch-up odyssey, it often seems like we get a geriatric Dredd subplot every second month...
Quote from: Tordelback on 24 August, 2016, 11:38:49 PM
Quote from: Steve Green on 24 August, 2016, 08:53:27 PM
The weary old Dredd thing worked for a while, but unless you're actually going to kill of the character it starts becoming ridiculous and a bit of a dead end.
This is a very good point. I'm very bored of the 'weary Dredd' style of non-Wagner strip too, and had rather hoped Titan/Enceladus brought that trope as far as it could go (without killing him). On my ongoing Meg catch-up odyssey, it often seems like we get a geriatric Dredd subplot every second month...
This is the one issue we've got with Wagner taking a back seat. Like in the 1990s we've got loads of different writers doing their "Mega-City One is in Danger" stories. Since Day of Chaos we've had Trifecta, Titan and Carroll's stealth epic that have all left Mega-City on the brink of destruction. Wagner was better at varying up the content of his mega-epics.
Given how high security the clinic is and the obviously money spent on the whole project... who were the other senior aging Judges/Justice Dept officials who were shot in their beds? The rest of JD's Academy class?
Quote from: Proudhuff on 26 August, 2016, 02:37:57 PM
who were the other senior aging Judges/Justice Dept officials who were shot in their beds? The rest of JD's Academy class?
Sheesh, Dredd'll be furious. I think he's been trying to shoot the entire class one by one himself for 40 years now. That'll teach em to wedgie a man in too-tight regulation U's.
Quote from: Tordelback on 26 August, 2016, 05:57:20 PM
Quote from: Proudhuff on 26 August, 2016, 02:37:57 PM
who were the other senior aging Judges/Justice Dept officials who were shot in their beds? The rest of JD's Academy class?
Sheesh, Dredd'll be furious. I think he's been trying to shoot the entire class one by one himself for 40 years now. That'll teach em to wedgie a man in too-tight regulation U's.
"You still wearing those tight stookie smugglers, Joe?"
Quote from: Frank on 23 August, 2016, 06:25:26 PM
No foreskin. Shalom, Joseph.
Two possible responses to that:
a) maybe that's one of the last bits to grow back?
b) if it had already grown back, rabbis in the big Meg are pretty damn efficient!
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 20 August, 2016, 11:41:11 AM
Rebooted Strontium Dog wasn't billed as untold tales—it was billed as an accurate account versus the 'hearsay' we'd previously experienced. In reality, this of course meant 'Wagner gets to use his TV script for something', and that first tale in particular seems to sit in a slightly different universe to the rest of Strontium Dog. The computer historian angle seems to have gradually died a death though, with 'new' SD essentially becoming a continuation of the original run.
Of course, if the previous stories are now regarded as hearsay by JW, the Death of the Author critical technique (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author) suggests that currently running stories should also be regarded in the same light.
QuoteAs for reboots in general, I'm not against them when they work. Fr1day was fine for that very first run, but then went very wrong when Gibbons departed. And the IDW Rogue was an excellent foundation to my mind. (And this is coming from someone who's not generally a fan of that strip.) I suppose the key is in retaining the spirit of the original (IDW) or creating something with a similar concept that's compiling (Fr1day). The Robo-Hunter stuff by Millar achieved neither (although the Hogan/Hughes run came close).
I loved the War Machine and IDW Rogue, and would favour a continuation of IDW Rogue stories in the prog (like Dredd stories running at the back of the Meg while JD runs at the front).
Millar's Robo-Hunter was a waste of Casanova's art, while I agree that Hogan and Hughes turned in far better work. I did like Samantha Slade, shame Gibson lost interest (in 2000AD, comics altogether?)
Quote from: sheridan on 28 August, 2016, 03:22:53 PM
Quote from: Frank on 23 August, 2016, 06:25:26 PM
No foreskin. Shalom, Joseph.
rabbis in the big Meg are pretty damn efficient!
There's an 80% chance Dredd is circumcised, irrespective of whether the Fargo kids took violin lessons on Sunday mornings. The reasons for that are many and various, ranging from
capitalism to none at all (https://matthewtontonoz.com/2015/01/05/why-is-circumcision-so-popular-in-america/).
It's essentially a cultural practice, rather than a medical or religious one, so the most reliable predictor of whether a US male is circumcised is whether his father is cut. In Dredd's case, I'm not sure whether that would mean Fargo, Judd, or Wagner.
Quote from: Frank on 28 August, 2016, 05:53:19 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 28 August, 2016, 03:22:53 PM
Quote from: Frank on 23 August, 2016, 06:25:26 PM
No foreskin. Shalom, Joseph.
rabbis in the big Meg are pretty damn efficient!
There's an 80% chance Dredd is circumcised, irrespective of whether the Fargo kids took violin lessons on Sunday mornings. The reasons for that are many and various, ranging from capitalism to none at all (https://matthewtontonoz.com/2015/01/05/why-is-circumcision-so-popular-in-america/).
It's essentially a cultural practice, rather than a medical or religious one, so the most reliable predictor of whether a US male is circumcised is whether his father is cut. In Dredd's case, I'm not sure whether that would mean Fargo, Judd, or Wagner.
Or an anonymous geneticist in a cloning lab, circa 2066.
Re Strontium Dog untold vs hearsay I feel I should point out that ALL of Johnny Alpha's stories are actually made up. 😉
Quote from: Frank on 28 August, 2016, 05:53:19 PMThere's an 80% chance Dredd is circumcised
Dredd was 'born' in the 2060s. Chances are, things will change significantly by then. (In most countries, a combination of money and awareness shifted things regarding circumcision, and once the tide shifts, it can happen very quickly.)
Quote from: Trent on 28 August, 2016, 06:57:52 PM
Re Strontium Dog untold vs hearsay I feel I should point out that ALL of Johnny Alpha's stories are actually made up.
Well, quite. I think what mosts gets me is how much of an outlier that first 'reboot' tale feels like now. The others — including the relentlessly grim Life and Death — feel similar in tone to the original run, but Kreeler betrays its origins as being devised for something else entirely. (In all honestly, I'd have preferred Strontium Dog to have continued in that vein. It would have been interesting to have had a different take on the character, but there you go.)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 August, 2016, 08:38:14 PM
Quote from: Frank on 28 August, 2016, 05:53:19 PMThere's an 80% chance Dredd is circumcised
Dredd was 'born' in the 2060s. Chances are, things will change significantly by then. (In most countries, a combination of money and awareness shifted things regarding circumcision, and once the tide shifts, it can happen very quickly.)
Maybe that irradiated desert air brought some knob eating pathogens if left to incubate in the unwashed cheesewrap - or some judicial holdover from the scorched sandy wastes of the
Battle of Armageddon -
Another compelling explanation referred to earlier involves the ritualization of circumcision's prophylactic effects, especially as many different human groups and cultures that live in desert or other hot environments have adopted it as part of their customs. Infections, initiated by the aggravation of dirt and sand under the foreskin, are not uncommon under such conditions and have even crippled whole armies, where it is difficult to achieve sanitation during prolonged battle.
A US Army report by General John Patton stated that in World War II 150,000 soldiers were hospitalized for foreskin problems due to inadequate hygiene, leading to the statements: "Time and money could have been saved had prophylactic circumcision been performed before the men were shipped overseas" and "Because keeping the foreskin clean was very difficult in the field, many soldiers with only a minimal tendency toward phimosis were likely to develop balanoposthitis [Patton, 1987b]. Army urologists stated "Had these patients been circumcised before induction [into the Army] this total would have been close to zero". In the Second World War Australia had to send urologists to circumcise all of its troops fighting in the North African campaign who were not already circumcised [Short, 2006]. Similarly sand was a problem for uncircumcised men during the Gulf War in Iraq ("Desert Storm") in the early 1990s [Gardner, 1991; Schoen, 2007e]. http://www.circinfo.net/what_caused_many_cultures_to_remove_it.html
It's a miracle the fragile ol' human race survived long enough to develop all these child mutilation rituals. But helpful that Surgeon General Patton was on hand to give us the benefit of his entirely culturally-unbiased objective interpretation.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 August, 2016, 08:38:14 PM
In most countries, a combination of money and awareness shifted things regarding circumcision
The USA has been the richest nation on Earth for the last century - about the same time circumcision really took off
(f-nar). It isn't associated with poverty or ignorance either - college educated males are
more likely to be circumcised than those without health insurance (see article linked to above).
US rates of circumcision have actually increased (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision#United_States) in recent decades, with the only notable decrease being on the West coast (due to Latin immigration) - but Dredd patrols MC1, not MC2, and the only Catholic part of Rico was his name. It's
custom that means the USA is the only 1st world nation to adopt the
bris en masse* - it's difficult to make confident predictions about something that's already an anomaly.
I love that we're having a serious, in-depth discussion about Judge Dredd's tackle, complete with academic citations.
* Dads want their wee boys' wangers to look like their own
Quote from: Frank on 28 August, 2016, 05:53:19 PM
It bugs me when long-term posters change names - who are you?
Quote from: Fungus on 29 August, 2016, 12:56:10 AM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 29 August, 2016, 12:49:05 AM
Quote from: Frank on 28 August, 2016, 05:53:19 PM
It bugs me when long-term posters change names - who are you?
Indeed.
He is Milo Yiannopoulos, and I claim my ten pounds!
Or he is Sauchie/Butch/John Wagner, whatever's your poison.
Cheers
.
Let me be Frank.
To be fair in time honoured story telling fashion he did foreshadow the change in another thread.
Still took me a moment to catch up.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 28 August, 2016, 09:34:53 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 August, 2016, 08:38:14 PM
Quote from: Frank on 28 August, 2016, 05:53:19 PMThere's an 80% chance Dredd is circumcised
Dredd was 'born' in the 2060s. Chances are, things will change significantly by then. (In most countries, a combination of money and awareness shifted things regarding circumcision, and once the tide shifts, it can happen very quickly.)
Maybe that irradiated desert air brought some knob eating pathogens if left to incubate in the unwashed cheesewrap - or some judicial holdover from the scorched sandy wastes of the Battle of Armageddon -
Another compelling explanation referred to earlier involves the ritualization of circumcision's prophylactic effects, especially as many different human groups and cultures that live in desert or other hot environments have adopted it as part of their customs. Infections, initiated by the aggravation of dirt and sand under the foreskin, are not uncommon under such conditions and have even crippled whole armies, where it is difficult to achieve sanitation during prolonged battle.
A US Army report by General John Patton stated that in World War II 150,000 soldiers were hospitalized for foreskin problems due to inadequate hygiene, leading to the statements: "Time and money could have been saved had prophylactic circumcision been performed before the men were shipped overseas" and "Because keeping the foreskin clean was very difficult in the field, many soldiers with only a minimal tendency toward phimosis were likely to develop balanoposthitis [Patton, 1987b]. Army urologists stated "Had these patients been circumcised before induction [into the Army] this total would have been close to zero". In the Second World War Australia had to send urologists to circumcise all of its troops fighting in the North African campaign who were not already circumcised [Short, 2006]. Similarly sand was a problem for uncircumcised men during the Gulf War in Iraq ("Desert Storm") in the early 1990s [Gardner, 1991; Schoen, 2007e].
http://www.circinfo.net/what_caused_many_cultures_to_remove_it.html
A consultant urologist told me that the commonest minor surgical procedure carried out on British soldiers during gulf war 1 was circumcision for precisely the above reasons. Some of us might quibble about the use of the word minor but apparently it was the major difference in operation rates between British troops, most of whom were not circumcised before the war, and the US troops, most of whom were.
The forum is a funny old place, eh what?
And in other news i still have no meg because my comic shops a shower of bastitches
So now when Dredd is taking an absolute pounding he's thinking 'oh well, I'll be a bit narked having to get off the street for some rejuve'
Seems a bit PSI rod for your back in the long run.
What annoyed me more was how dull, decompressed and yank TV the whole thing was. 'Oh moley, not my family... You're family is fine, but my family....' Ugh. Don't care. Dull characters, no reason for us to care about them or anything happening to them. No humour, nothing original. Yuck.
Oh sweet Jovus I'm in partial agreement with BPP on the Meg review thread! What fresh hell is this.
Quote from: Tordelback on 30 August, 2016, 12:14:42 AM
Oh sweet Jovus I'm in partial agreement with BPP on the Meg review thread! What fresh hell is this.
Then its time to rethink and agree with me then isn't it... come on have a think...
Quote from: BPP on 29 August, 2016, 11:20:33 PM
So now when Dredd is taking an absolute pounding he's thinking 'oh well, I'll be a bit narked having to get off the street for some rejuve'
Dredd's been taking ten in the Rapi-heal
TM for as long as I've been reading. See lengthy disquisition above for why I thought Dredd's vulnerability to age -
his Achilles' heel - was a dramatically interesting exception.
Quote from: BPP on 29 August, 2016, 11:20:33 PM
Seems a bit PSI rod for your back in the long run.
Yep. Recent Dredd writers have used
DREDD LIES IN A BROKEN HEAP, BLEEDING OUT FROM MGSW as a final panel as regularly as TB Grover finished his strips with Dredd making a dad joke.
I'm not saying writers shouldn't mortally wound Dredd anymore, just that we've all seen that so many times it's no longer a cliffhanger. Carroll got round that by killing Dredd outside MC1, away from Med Div's toys.
Addendum: It was suggested upthread that Dredd's had these sorts of treatments for years, but complete cellular rejuvenation is a new technology. Prog 1699's
A House For Aldous Mayou describes it as an exciting (potential) breakthrough.
Prog 1699, eh?
That puts more meat on the - rejuvenated - bones of the argument, pleasingly.
Excellent work, Frank.
It wasn't actually invented in that prog, buddy - [spoiler]Mayou was working on the model house his dead daughter asked him to mend[/spoiler]. I cited it to illustrate the technology didn't exist six years ago, so this isn't something Dredd's done before.
Look how much he was moaning about the aches and pains of age and his time coming to an end.
Quote from: Tordelback on 30 August, 2016, 12:14:42 AM
Oh sweet Jovus I'm in partial agreement with BPP on the Meg review thread!
Always two there are; no more, no less.
Not surprised to see the Dredd has been such a dividing serial, I for one figured this was going to happen sooner or later anyway, but was more surprised Wagner didn't want to take a stab at it himself. As for the tale itself I was resoundingly none plused, but neither was I insulted by it.
Blunt and ROTD are both chuffing nice, lovely stuff....
But jesus how AMAZING is Lawless? Damn damn and more dman it's just much too fine.
I've only just had the chance to read Carousel.. and leaving aside the question of whether, and to what extent, Dredd should rejuvenate and the whole roundhead and cavalier business I'm left wondering about something...
Someone has just attempted a highly organised assassination attempt on Dredd:
1) How/where/from whom did they get the information about his whereabouts and condition?
2) Who has the BALLS to do it?
(and a compelling enough motive to organise it, although I suppose there are many people who want Dredd dead..)
Good one, Geoff. Can't believe I didn't pick up on that aspect. Standing gangster bounty of X million creds though, isn't there?
Quote from: Geoff on 31 August, 2016, 09:12:54 PM
How/where/from whom did they get the information about his whereabouts and condition?
The girl says they staked out every clinic in the city. They 'figured' Dredd was due a treatment.
Quote from: Frank on 31 August, 2016, 11:03:15 PM
Quote from: Geoff on 31 August, 2016, 09:12:54 PM
How/where/from whom did they get the information about his whereabouts and condition?
The girl says they staked out every clinic in the city. They 'figured' Dredd was due a treatment.
Oh yes, that'd be some operation though and mean Dredd's rejuves were common knowledge...still leaves the interesting question of who..
Quote from: Frank on 31 August, 2016, 11:03:15 PM
Quote from: Geoff on 31 August, 2016, 09:12:54 PM
How/where/from whom did they get the information about his whereabouts and condition?
The girl says they staked out every clinic in the city. They 'figured' Dredd was due a treatment.
Must have been long-term readers of this forum!
Quote from: Geoff on 31 August, 2016, 11:21:12 PM
that'd be some operation though and mean Dredd's rejuves were common knowledge
Depends how many clinics offer that treatment. There might only be four.
I didn't get the impression this was a regular thing for Dredd - the tek's certainly explaining it to Dredd like it's his first time
(although that's for the benefit of the reader).
It's framed as a response to Dredd getting killed the other week - and that's what made the gang reckon Hershey would sign Dredd up for a makeover. An inside man would have been less coincidence-y, but there you go.
Maybe resources is the issue at this point but like sleep machines and cloning labs I would've thought Justice Dept. would be doing rejuves behind closed doors rather some private clinic.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 01 September, 2016, 01:24:58 AM
Maybe resources is the issue at this point but like sleep machines and cloning labs I would've thought Justice Dept. would be doing rejuves behind closed doors rather some private clinic.
Ask Maitland in Accounts.
.
By scrapping Med Division and contracting out health care provision for Justice Department employees to the highest bidder, Hershey has ensured she gets the best service at the lowest cost - WHICH IS EXACTLY HOW US HEALTH CARE WORKS TODAY (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-30/health-care-check-up-whose-system-is-least-efficient-)!
Also, the level of security at Carousel is probably greater than the Department could spare at the moment. They've got two Robocops on the door.
Quote from: Geoff on 31 August, 2016, 09:12:54 PM
I've only just had the chance to read Carousel.. and leaving aside the question of whether, and to what extent, Dredd should rejuvenate and the whole roundhead and cavalier business I'm left wondering about something...
Someone has just attempted a highly organised assassination attempt on Dredd:
1) How/where/from whom did they get the information about his whereabouts and condition?
I don't think this sort of plot development matters anymore, it certainly didn't in the latest Dredd saga over the summer by the same writer. Elements of detail, back story and credibility in what we are being told to just accept & go with don't seem to be on the agenda for the future of Dredd.
I know many people are Carrols biggest fans on here, so I expect to be shot down in flames when I say this, but I sense that he wants to take the strip into this 'last action hero' figure and with this rejuve story, it clears the board of any Dredds personality pertainig to his aging body.
I'm not sure how one minute MC1 has just been overrun by Texas Cift in the fastest coup / reclaimation story in town & the next, the Tek and Med Judges have this lined up for old Joe & the rest of his aging clan. The fact that they can replace whole vascular systems in humans now means the medical budget for the Justice department must not be the same one that needed aid for food a few months ago...
Like I said, what does the plot significance & relevance matter any longer? This sort of thing seems to be the future of the character, lurching from one mega-epic to the next with miraculous results every time (with quite a few plot holes brushed under the carpet by Walter the Wobot).
It's just my opinion before I get castrated, last I heard they are still free, unlike growing whole skeletons & bones for full body replacements. I'm not against Dredd going on & on & on, I realise the owners needed to solve this problem to keep the character in play, no matter what his age, but I'm much more fond of the 'In the bath' type stories which I can relate to for one who ages in normal time.
Si
Different strokes I guess. Wagner tales these days are often very much procedural cop stories (which personally I love) and Carroll seems to lean towards more action based stories which by their nature with brisker pacing (Lion's Den excepted) will tend to have plot holes. The feeling seems to be, 'hey, that's comics' which was fine when 2000AD launched for 8 year olds but today's readership is more sophisticated.
I enjoy rereading much earlier Dredd which cracked along but Wagner is much more deliberate now. The only recent exception is Dark Justice but that was intentionally written as an action movie and was penned some time ago with Greg taking a couple of years to paint it.
I like that Carroll was given an epic of his own and it was better than many in the past but the pacing issues, underdeveloped Texas City aspect and plot holes were hard to ignore. A shame as I thought the whole Cursed Earth aspect was excellent, helped by MacNeil and Flint, but the Brit Cit sidebar shoehorned in to give us Dreddless Dredd felt exactly like what it actually was and robbed us of a couple of months of proper storytelling re the Texas coup.
The rejuve story felt more like Ennis Dredd and sadly sidesteps, nay steamrollers, many of the most interesting elements about Dredd that have been cultivated over the past 20 years.
I still have great hope for Carroll as some of his stories have been exemplary but he clearly has a way to go before we consider him a successor for Wagner.
On that very point, the whole notion of a new 'showrunner' for Dredd once Wagner finally walks away may be flawed anyway. I recall the enthusiasm in the past for Rennie and Ewing both of whom then moved on by their own choosing. There is no guarantee anyone other than the original creator would want to be attached long term to Dredd.
While I've been critical of this month's tale, I would observe that those looking for another John Wagner to take on Dredd will be a long time waiting. We should be grateful that there are such entertaining writers working on the strip currently and recently, but even Dredd's other parents, Mills and Grant, never approached the particular genius of that man writing for his creation.
No issue with your interesting take on recent events, Jacqusie. I personally enjoyed the re-juve episode, it was logical and overdue (I've read the Hachette Trifecta this week - Dredd looks like a doddery corpse in appearance (though not in action)). The recent split-mag 'epic' felt all over the place to me and I read much of it feeling that I was missing key points, even more than normal...! As a consequence, it did nothing for me.
I have to say that Lawless is the only series I absolutly loved in the last year of the Meg. I am deeply tired of the summer of Carroll here and in the prog. For me his work misses the essential fun elements of Dredd's world. It is just one dull and too long political intrigue too many after the other.
Same goes for The Carousel, which just didn't work for me. This was like a low budget flick, a couple of stock-characters killing a couple of incompetent red-shirts in a dark warehouse. The medical-center must have been the only Mega-City facility without robots. It is not that the idea was bad - even if it read in parts as a direct contradiction to From the Ashes a month before, where Dredd was given the okay by the medical chief -, but if you do the rejuvenation-story, why stop in the middle and not do it right, give him a new body? Now an old heart and old glands must work double-time to power new muscles? It doesn't make sense and was half-hearted. Either do it right or don't do it at all. (And shouldn't such an important progression in the character - regardless how well it is executed or not - not be done in the prog?)
Realm of the Damned is just another concept done to death. Van Helsing? Really? At least it is done competently after a very shakey start. Frankly at first only the violence and the nudity kept me reading. If you have to do the newest variation of the vampire-world tale, at least do it right. In this regard this is okay. But I won't miss it when it is over.
Blunt is nice. It has Boo Cook, so even if it didn't make sense - which it does - you get great art.
Lawless was perfect. Dan Abnett is hit-and-miss with me, but here he hit the jackpot. This is fun in any regard and will be the only new series of the last years I will buy when it - hopfully - gets collected.
But on the whole the Meg is disappointing at the moment.
I must say, whilst being a fan of Carroll, I'm SO sick of almost all Dredd stories being about Judges clashing with other Judges.
I like to see a bit more satire/social commentary centred around cits rather than endless power struggles within Justice Department.
Quote from: Spaceghost on 07 September, 2016, 03:58:20 PM
I must say, whilst being a fan of Carroll, I'm SO sick of almost all Dredd stories being about Judges clashing with other Judges.
I like to see a bit more satire/social commentary centred around cits rather than endless power struggles within Justice Department.
That's fair, and possibly why recent Brit-Cit/Texas City conflicts haven't done much for me. Too many 'epics', less 'crazy citizen tales' recently. MC is perfectly up to delivering those, so hopefully they'll stage a comeback.
The current PJ tale is a big step in the right direction, though. Black humour worthy of TB Grover himself.
Quote from: Fungus on 07 September, 2016, 04:58:35 PM
Quote from: Spaceghost on 07 September, 2016, 03:58:20 PM
whilst being a fan of Carroll, I'm SO sick of almost all Dredd stories being about Judges clashing with other Judges.
Too many 'epics', less 'crazy citizen tales' recently.
I agree, but Wagner's made the Department the focus of the strip since Edgar and
The Pit, twenty years ago. He certainly doesn't seem to have any wacky citizen strips left in the tank, and I'm not sure any of Tharg's droids list an aptitude for comedy on their CVs*.
It's probably safer to avoid chuckles anyway - an action or horror strip can be enjoyed on other levels, but if a comedy strip doesn't tickle your funny bone it's more painful than Richard Branson taking a header off a bike. Look how divisive
Undercover Klegg and
Big Dave are.
Plus, one-off funnies are more difficult to package as trade collections than multi-part drama.
* Abnett and Williams are hilarious, but one doesn't do Dredd and the other is (let's face it) only ever going to be an occasional visitor to these parts
For me it doesn't necessarily need to be an out and out chuckle fest, 'classic' epics such as The Judge Child Quest, Block War, The Apocalypse War, Necropolis - even more recent Wagner epics like Tour of Duty and Day of Chaos featured the odd wacky citizen aside.
If nothing else, it helps to give these alarmingly regular catastrophes a bit of scope when we see the regular folk reacting in a Mega City stylee.
Quote from: Spaceghost on 08 September, 2016, 03:30:25 PM
For me it doesn't necessarily need to be an out and out chuckle fest ... it helps to give these alarmingly regular catastrophes a bit of scope when we see the regular folk reacting in a Mega City stylee.
That's a very good point, and one I endorse. My only caveat would be that there's a modern orthodoxy concerning
consistency of tone that probably mitigates against light relief.
We can point to things from our childhoods that danced nimbly between horror and hilarity
[1], but storytellers have been clearly telegraphing what kind of emotions audiences should feel and what genre conventions to expect for at least quarter of a century.
Moore Bonds were basically variety shows, with honking comedy following nasty violence and important dramatic turns. Daniel Craig spent three films crying over a girl Connery would have murdered himself, then made a crap joke about her being out of breath.
[2]I think there's a good case to be made that Tharg should buck such trends, but even the Squaxx seem to have bought it. Remember the stramash that ensued when a light hearted story about boobs and dancing (https://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php?topic=36396.msg690427#msg690427) followed the deaths of 400 million people?
[3][1] Like Fred Astaire wearing a hat made from severed heads
[2] Even Robocop's gone emo.
[3] I'm not having a go, just taking the piss
Or if 1970s/1980s Bond isn't your thing, Shakespeare often contrasted dramatic scenes with comedic one following directly afterwards.
Exhibit A: Lowlife. By turns a grim tale of corruption, mental illness and oppressive poverty, and the struggles of sensitive alien crocodiles and their shark-headed corporate masters. Serious and hilarious by turns.
Inconsistent (or rather, diverse) tone is the Dredd strip's greatest strength. In fact,it's the hallmark of so many2000AD strioe. But it's very hard to do right. Surprise exhibit for the prosecution: CalHab Justice.
Quote from: Fungus on 07 September, 2016, 04:58:35 PM
Quote from: Spaceghost on 07 September, 2016, 03:58:20 PM
I must say, whilst being a fan of Carroll, I'm SO sick of almost all Dredd stories being about Judges clashing with other Judges.
I like to see a bit more satire/social commentary centred around cits rather than endless power struggles within Justice Department.
That's fair, and possibly why recent Brit-Cit/Texas City conflicts haven't done much for me. Too many 'epics', less 'crazy citizen tales' recently..
I was just thinking the same thing, the editorial pacing seems to be a bit gung ho with one big event after another which not much explanation or follow up story. I like the short runs between the epics & the Dredds do seem to be heavy, serious and the cits of MC1 seem to get ignored in all the wham bam story telling.
What epics are we talking about here? I remember Day of Chaos (2011-12), Trifecta (2012, which was the very welcome dessert course for DoC in many ways), then Enceladus (2015, more of a brief existential threat than a Megaepic) and then Every Empire Falls (2016). That's the same time span that contained Cursed Earth/DtLD, Judge Child and Apocalypse War, at the very least. I know we've slowed the pace since the early days, but is this not more an artifact if our old-man perception of the passage of time?
Bah, no edit function: I meant 'events' not 'epics'. But I fully agree about the corrupt/rogue faction/foreign judge thing: enough for now.
Yeah isn't there a danger of calling any 'big story a mega-epic? I wouldn't really count Trifecta and Enceladus Mega-Epics (not of course that there is any pre-described defination, its jut how fans call it). They are just call, longer tales.
Much like as was discussed elsewhere there are a couple of things wearing a bit thin. Firstly Dredd getting the snot beaten out of him every couple of stories just to emphasize the danger of the threat and challenge he's facing. Secondly the city getting the snot beaten out of it just to emphasize the scale of threat and challenge being faced.
We need a nice The Pitesque palette clenser before our next THE WHOLE CITY WILL DIE tale if you ask me.
Quote from: Tordelback on 11 September, 2016, 08:49:49 AM
Day of Chaos (2011-12), Trifecta (2012, which was the very welcome dessert course for DoC in many ways), then Enceladus (2015, more of a brief existential threat than a Megaepic) and then Every Empire Falls (2016). That's the same time span that contained Cursed Earth/DtLD, Judge Child and Apocalypse War, at the very least ... I fully agree about the corrupt/rogue faction/foreign judge thing: enough for now
Carroll and Marshall's
Cascade (1894-1899) wasn't billed as an event story, but it was a 5 part story about judges from somewhere else (and a rogue faction of Justice Department) trying to take over MC1.
There's an argument to be made that all these fine writers are just delivering on the follow-up to Chaos Day that we all demanded, with a weakened Department vulnerable to threats external and internal.
I think the focus on Justice Department's troubles is probably at the point the repetition of the HUGE EPIC THAT DESTROYS THE CITY trope was after
Judgement Day. It's ironic that Wagner's solution to that was to take the focus away from the city/citizens and onto internal Justice Department problems*, which is why we are where we are now (22 years later).
There's a big Cursed Earth out there to play in, and different kinds of stories to tell.
* First with Conspiracy Of Silence/Wilderlands/Voting Day (1994), and then with The Cal Files (1995) and The Pit (1995/6)
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 11 September, 2016, 09:29:16 AM
We need a nice The Pitesque palette clenser before our next THE WHOLE CITY WILL DIE tale if you ask me.
I would say we had exactly that in Block Judge. By removing itself to a remote manor house, Dark Justice also fits the bill for a longer form story which avoids the "whole city in peril" badge.
Quote from: The Cosh on 11 September, 2016, 11:14:00 AM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 11 September, 2016, 09:29:16 AM
We need a nice The Pitesque palette clenser before our next THE WHOLE CITY WILL DIE tale if you ask me.
I would say we had exactly that in Block Judge. By removing itself to a remote manor house, Dark Justice also fits the bill for a longer form story which avoids the "whole city in peril" badge.
...and Ladykiller should clock in at nine parts - only one episode shorter than Dark Justice or Block Mania but (seemingly) about to involve the [spoiler]death of a long-term character[/spoiler] I think can count as epic.
Quote from: Tordelback on 11 September, 2016, 08:53:07 AM
Bah, no edit function: I meant 'events' not 'epics'. But I fully agree about the corrupt/rogue faction/foreign judge thing: enough for now.
I sort of agree with that, except with the caveat of resolving or continuing some of the themes which
have been raised - Brit-Cit, Emerald Isle and Texas City. Wouldn't want them to be dropped like certain other Mega-City intrigues were dropped in the nineties!
Quote from: Tordelback on 11 September, 2016, 08:49:49 AM
...then Enceladus (2015, more of a brief existential threat than a Megaepic) and then Every Empire Falls (2016).
I know we've slowed the pace since the early days, but is this not more an artifact if our old-man perception of the passage of time?
I liked Titan/Enceladus as it felt like a slow burning plot that had woven it's way round many characters, themes and settings. The whole return to MC1 bit - was a huge event I thought - when it got frozen & all that. Maybe a missed opportunity to tell some more stories on the back of that as it must have had wide implications?
I rate Rob Williams very highly, his Dredd for me is gritty and has that nod of respect to Wagners style of storytelling, which I enjoy more than some of Carolls (especially Cascade) and that's just personal taste (and yes maybe old age!) I guess.
I don't know why, but I have 'Tomb of the Judges', 'Fast Food' (always a good fattie tale) and 'The Satanist' as some examples that filled the gaps nicely without too many drama's to put Dredd & MC1 at deaths door...
Sssspeaking of Death... I'm looking forward to 'Dark Judges in Space' when we get round to it!
:)
Quote from: Frank on 11 September, 2016, 09:59:21 AM
Quote from: Tordelback on 11 September, 2016, 08:49:49 AM
Carroll and Marshall's Cascade (1894-1899) wasn't billed as an event story, but it was a 5 part story about judges from somewhere else (and a rogue faction of Justice Department) trying to take over MC1.
Ah, good one, slipped my mind completely, even though I enjoyed it at the time. Could probably add Traumatown to that list too?
But as noted, these are interspersed with some very low-key Wagner procedurals whose biggest set pieces seem to echo the scale of the 2012 movie, a lot of 'monster in the ruins' stories from various authors, and some downright light-hearted pieces. So I really do wonder if the 'threat to the entire city' are really any more frequent than they alwaspys have been. The one thing that really has been on the rise is the Dredd-severely-injured-as-cliffhanger and the endless corrupt/treacherous judge stories. Both of those could use a rest for a while.
Quote from: Tordelback on 11 September, 2016, 08:49:49 AM
Carroll and Marshall's Cascade (1894-1899) wasn't billed as an event story, but it was a 5 part story about judges from somewhere else (and a rogue faction of Justice Department) trying to take over MC1.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Quote from: Frank on 12 September, 2016, 12:15:15 AM
Quote from: Tordelback on 11 September, 2016, 08:49:49 AM
Carroll and Marshall's Cascade (1894-1899) wasn't billed as an event story, but it was a 5 part story about judges from somewhere else (and a rogue faction of Justice Department) trying to take over MC1.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Heh, don't know what went wrong with my quote tags there. Sincerest form of flattery donchano.
It's taken nearly a whole month of willpower to resist making a reference to The Meg strap line, but I can resist no longer!!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U8SCm7kNhOk
And I still didn't find the right link first time!!!!!! :o
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bwDpAfFzcRQ
How did I know that was going to be a link with Ozzy with his top off, bad pants and off his head?
...great stuff! :)
Quote from: Jacqusie on 14 September, 2016, 01:07:26 AM
How did I know that was going to be a link with Ozzy with his top off, bad pants and off his head?
...great stuff! :)
:lol:
Any Dark Judges in space story needs to be a Strontium Dog story.
Death: the crime isssss life the sssssentence is death
Alpha: time grenade
-tosses grenade-
Sssshit
-the dark judges are forever caught in a time loop the only word forever heard is sssshit
The end
Heh, come to think of it have any of the fumbling foursome every made expletative use of their speech impediment? Ssssshit MUST have been used a few times at least?...
Quote from: sheridan on 11 September, 2016, 12:56:35 PM
...and Ladykiller should clock in at nine parts - only one episode shorter than Dark Justice or Block Mania but (seemingly) about to involve the I think can count as epic.
Might as well have a look at the dictionary definition(s) of epic.
- [/size]a lengthy narratie poem, ordinarily concerning a serious subject containing details of heroic deeds and events significant to a culture or nation
- [/size]oral epics tend to be constructed in short episodes, each of equal status, interest and importance
- [/size]an extended narrative poem in elevated or dignified language, celebrating the feats of a deity or demigod (heroic epic) or other legendary or traditional hero.
- [/size]a series of events considered appropriate to an epic.
- [/size]recounts a journey, either physical or mental or both.
- [/size]tend to highlight cultural norms and to define or call into question cultural values, particularly as they pertain to heroism.
[/size]A common list of characteristics of epic poetry (which is where we get the concept of epics from).[/size]Begins in medias res.- [/size]The setting is vast, covering many nations, the world or the universe.
- [/size]Begins with an invocation to a muse (epic invocation).
- [/size]Begins with a statement of the theme.
- [/size]Includes the use of epithets.
- [/size]Contains long lists, called an epic catalogue.
- [/size]Features long and formal speeches.
- [/size]Shows divine intervention on human affairs.
- [/size]Features heroes that embody the values of the civilisation.
- [/size]Often features the tragic hero's descent into the Underworld or hell.