The Political Thread

[IndigoPrime]

"There is no recorded example of these tactics being successful in a UK court."

[Professor Bear]

"Plunged the court into chaos" - it can't have been a particularly stable work envirenment, then.

I kind of see his point that the court's authority is derived from coercion rather than the consent of all parties to abide by its arbitration.  Much like our politics, the UK's legal system is a joke based on deference to some rando in a wig.  That'd be stupid if you saw it in Star Wars, yet it's pretty much the basis of all legal authority in a supposedly first world nation.

[sheridan]

"Plunged the court into chaos" - it can't have been a particularly stable work envirenment, then.

I kind of see his point that the court's authority is derived from coercion rather than the consent of all parties to abide by its arbitration.  Much like our politics, the UK's legal system is a joke based on deference to some rando in a wig.  That'd be stupid if you saw it in Star Wars, yet it's pretty much the basis of all legal authority in a supposedly first world nation.

Similar to the monetary system as well.  "I promise to pay the bearer" what, exactly?  It used to be gold until 1931, though there's more banknotes in circulation than there is excavated gold in this country (possibly the world).  Since then the only thing the Bank of England is promising to pay the bearer of a banknote is another banknote...

[The Legendary Shark]

It's all part of the same problem - reality v simulation. Legislation is simulated Law, paper money is simulated gold, political right is simulated human right.

Simulations are not in themselves evil or bad but just tools. The problem, of course, comes when those who create the simulations claim them to be on a par with or above realities.

[Tjm86]

"There is my name. I did not consent to it. It was given to me at birth."

Well, seems reasonable.  Apparently you have to seek consent before procreation now ...

[Funt Solo]

Frustrated by Graver's lack of respect, the bench imposed a suspended 45-day prison term, which will hang over him until the entire £2,423.32 is repaid.

"Graver"-who-didn't-consent-to-that-name will no doubt be buoyed by the wonderfully freeing notion that the prison term and the £££ are mere simulations.

[The Legendary Shark]

The fact that witchcraft wasn't real didn't prevent people being burned to death. It's the blind belief in the simulations that's the danger, not the simulations themselves.

[M.I.K.]

The fact that witchcraft wasn't real didn't prevent people being burned to death. It's the blind belief in the simulations that's the danger, not the simulations themselves.

[Pedantry mode activated] Mostly not (kind of) real. Quite a lot of accused witchy folk's 'magic' potions actually worked and still work when prescribed by one of them fancy modern doctors they have nowadays.

[The Legendary Shark]

Witchcraft was often used as an excuse by the state and church to strip widows of their land and property. The nature of the witchcraft, regardless of its actual form, was imposed by the state's illusionists (legislators) in pursuit of this goal. Ordinary people, who believed in law and order and the rights of the rulers, were schooled to accept these judgements by being told what to believe and through fear of persecution for questioning.

It might be that most people did not actually believe that an old woman who was well versed in natural medicine was in league with the Devil, but to believe such a thing and to say it out loud - against the pronouncements of authority - were two very different things.

[Funt Solo]

This has nothing to do with witchcraft.  He was done for illegal street trading.  I'm sure he didn't sell his goods for barter only, and probably happily accepted *illusory* money from his *imaginary* customers.  Of course, if anyone approached him and just took the stuff they could quite rightly argue that his *ownership* of the items was naught but an illusion of grandeur and that Legally (note that magical uppercase 'L' that lends more weight to my banter) anyone could just take them.

All these arguments are self-consuming. 

[M.I.K.]

Witchcraft was often used as an excuse by the state and church to strip widows of their land and property. The nature of the witchcraft, regardless of its actual form, was imposed by the state's illusionists (legislators) in pursuit of this goal.

While I don't doubt that it may have been used as an excuse for such a purpose, I don't think it could really be argued that this was the case with the vast majority of witchcraft accusations. Most of the cases I'm familiar with involve people with very little land or property, but I don't want to warp the thread into a debate on the theology and folklore of the 16th & 17th centuries, (even if it would be more interesting), so I'll shoosht now.

[The Legendary Shark]

"He was done for illegal street trading."

Yes. The illusion here is that traders and customers need permission from a ruling class to engage in trade, a fundamental human activity. If Person A wants to engage in free, honest and consensual trade with Person B, why do either of them need the permission of Person C?

The usual answer is that Person C offers some form of protection against the sale of poisonous foods or dangerous goods but this presupposes that most traders will sell any old tat, often even wilfully, which flies in the face of basic economic theory. Licenses are a way for authorities to protect the businesses of their friends and allies, and to raise revenue, using the illusions of safety and fairness as an excuse.

This is not to say that safety and fairness in trade are insignificant aspects as, clearly, they are not. Yet to imagine that buying a license guarantees such things is simply an aspect of the overall illusion that the state has any right to interfere with the fundamental interactions of honest and peaceful people. If a trader is deliberately or accidentally selling dangerous goods then by all means step in - that's why we have police, courts and consumer protection agencies - but do not imagine that licensing is anything more than a tool of control imposed by those few who believe they have the right to interfere with the lives of others.

[The Legendary Shark]

M.I.K., my point is that the "crime" of witchcraft, however imposed or prosecuted, was simply one aspect of the illusion of the power of the state to interfere with the freedoms of the people at a whim. The state decides that something is the case and assumes the right to enforce that case regardless of its reality.

A more modern example would be homosexuality, where the state decided it was wrong and assumed the right to imprison perfectly innocent human beings using anti-gay "laws" as an excuse.

As with trade or any other human interaction, so long as the parties enter into proceedings willingly, honestly and with reasonable intentions, and cause no loss, harm or damage, then what right has anyone else to either ban it or demand their cut?

[sheridan]

"There is my name. I did not consent to it. It was given to me at birth."

Well, seems reasonable.  Apparently you have to seek consent before procreation now ...

Doesn't appear in that frivalous treatment of the subject, but in the context of the religion of those involved, there would actually have been a way for the parents to seek permission (through ritual).  I'm not saying it makes any sense, just that there's a little more to that case than conveyed in that report (as usually occurs in reports of unusual court cases).

[JayzusB.Christ]

Oh Christ, that fat gimp across the pond is going to get his wall after all.  A state of emergency when there's no emergency.  God help us all.