2000 AD Online Forum

...this is it, the last one till christmas, hasnt time flown when your having fun???...

Didn't get to watch last week, due to being at a wedding so I'm doing the double tonight. Aces!

Bolt-01

It's my nephew's 5th birthday today, and I'm going to his party this afternoon. Whilst I'm obviously looking forward to the jelly & ice cream, and hijacking his new lightsaber, I'm kinda hoping the little runt falls asleep early, so I can watch this on first showing...

...dont forget to watch the documentary before it...

My wifes at work till 8pm so I'm taping it and when she gets in I'm say "Hi!Bye!" & legging it up to a mates for the 3 of us to gorge ourselves on geekness...although I suspect they will have already watched it (I wouldnt get time to watch it as it's broadcast as I'll be sorting out Mini-ReV who no doubt will not understand that for an hour she has to keep verrrrrry quiet & not bother Daddy).
;-)

Am downloading after it airs (I'm in Oz).  Better be bloody done before I go away for two weeks tomorrow.

Oh dear, I had a dream featuring Dr Who last night.  Embarressing and weird.  

I was at a launch party (which mutated into a filming) for the last episode.

Originally me and some friends of mine were at out tables, expecting to be in the middle of nowhere, then I got to sit next to Bonnie Langford (aged about the same as me) who I was trying to cop off with, as in the flesh she seemed very tasty.  

I got to speak to Sylvester McCoy as he came over to talk to Bonnie, and I was sat opposite John Barrowman who kept talking about some daring bit of acting about the titanic and did I think he'd got away with it.

Eventually I had to leave as I wasn't supposedly sat there after all, but somehwere else, where my flan was waiting for me.  It was a Findus flan in a packet, according to the picture menu.  But sat between two people I didn't know, the table shrank and my flan dissapeared.

I then saw some filming between Sylvester McCoy and the Master and another Master (as there was a very short Roberts and Anthony Ainley - or possibly an Anthony Ainley impersonator as he wasn't very good) where they were taking part in some ritual Timelord mental contest which involved Sylvester McCoy being in his underpants, mking a sumo posture and looking as though he was concentrating hard.  He was overweight and insisting he didn't have breasts.  I and some actor (possibly Billie Piper) were discussing how it was a humiliating way to go.

They were showing the regeneration scenes which showed McCoy (sorry McGann you weren't in) which showed first Troughton morphing into Eccleston, then McCoy, but we knew something was wrong as it all went melty and evil.

And at the end, when I said to Davies, you've bloody ruined it, he showed us his flipchart which involved several layers of building story base up the word 'light'.  And for the finale, he revealed with a flourish and to wild applause that he had worked in the musical Hair at the end.

At that point there was some mental weirdness and I was woken up by the postman.  There was much more to the dream, lots more really crazy things, and more Doctor Who related detail, but I can't remember it sadly.

So, I'm off down to labrokes to place a bet that that's what happens.  Nostradamus, eat your heart out.  Anyway, I've never had a Doctor Who dream before, I hadn't been thnking about it much in the last couple of days.  I think I need help.

...and then suddenly you were naked?
;-)
Keep meaning to say to you PVS your icon reminds me of this lady but with a 'tash...god knows why!

...is it just me or isnt it about time somebody posted a few of THOSE Katy Manning pictures o this thread???...

Posted without comment.

Caption comp' time?

I dunno, do we need one?

Went into Forbidden Planet the other day to look at comics, and was chatting to the manager, when a woman came in desperate to buy a Dalek for her kid.  She got a little talking Dalek, but there isn't much out.  Can't believe the BBC haven't got these things sorted out, crazy, they'd sell millions next week.

Probably the licence for merchandise reside with a bunch of people who've had it for yonks and were unprepared for the beebs new series.

- pj

Last I heard, it was a little tin-pot place in Llangollen. They had quite a nice little museum of memorabilia, but the toys weren't up to much...

Really looking forward to tonight - the teasers have been fantastic, and I hope that the final episode lives up to my expectations.

I'd also like to thank ARRISARRIS for taking the time to post these threads every week for the past few months. It's been fun to have a regular thread to chat about Who, and your consideration in setting them up is much appreciated.

Roll on tonight - then the Chrimbo special and series 2 and 3!

...thanks for the thanks Mr Amstor Computer Sir, (your cheques in the post) im glad i didnt annoy tomany people with these threads, it is after all a 2000ad web-site, but all id like to say is i love this show and just wanted to see if everyone else was liking it to, especially people who would have previously cringed at watching it, and aleast on this site, as opposed to Who sites one can get a more balanced opinion...

Bit of a cop-out, I thought.

Heh, I wanted to be the first here to say 'Ah, it was a bit dull really'

It was a bit of a cop out, but it was a fun cop out.

A nice ending to a show, which on and off has given me one tv program I want to watch each week for almost 3 months.

Yes, it was. Still, some nice stuff on the way to the cop-out, and 2 lines and a cheeky grin were enough to persuade me David Tennant's going to be great :)

Loved it. A few duff moments, and a slightly easy resolution, but what an enjoyable episode.

The revealing of "Bad Wolf" was nicely done - they *were* messages sent to Rose and the Doctor, but by Rose herself - and the Emperor Dalek was fucking phenomenal.

Nice to see no sign of Davros, Adam, the Master or any of the other hundreds of guesses - the Emperor was nice and simple, and the survival of the Daleks was quite elegantly explained. Some real quotable lines from the big bastard as well!

Ecclestone and Piper both gave top performances, and their final scene was - to use the word of the moment - fantastic.

The regeneration was nicely handled, and Tennant's first appearance as the Doctor was certainly memorable.

On the downside, a little too much time was spent back on Earth, and I think a better solution for opening the TARDIS would have been nice - even if it was just Rose out of her wits, pounding her fists on it.

Christmas can't come soon enough!

Agree with the general consensus kicking around here. Was somewhat cop-outy, but handled in a fun and enjoyable way.

Though am I wrong in thinking that Rose is the first companion to get a forewarning of a regeneration? 'Cos normally it's like tum-te-tum, the Doctor's been shot. Waidaminnt. Who the fuck are you? etc etc

Would the Adamites, please leave the building.

I have to say, at one point, I thought he might get the chance to redeam himself when rose was on earth, and use his skills to get the tardis going again.

My Bad Wolf theory was that Captain Jack in his missing two years of life, had been captured and programmed and was going to turn evil.  But, that wasn't what happened.

Woo and Hoo quite frankly. I really enjoyed that. It wasn't perfect but it was bloody good.

And La Diva Tennant will be great.

Loved it. Can't wait for more!

Too fragging hot to give a real evalution, so that'll have to do...

I've got to agree that it was abit of a letdown as well.
I still injoyed it,The Emperor Dalek alone made it worth watching.Its a shame theres no Daleks in the second series,as now its going to be a real wait to see him again.
I really liked the moment when Captain Jack sees the Tardis going and his face just brakes.I do hope we get to see him again.
The regeneration was good and Tennant looks like hes going to be a good follow up doctor who.
The main problems with the episode were,far to much time spent in the past though Mickys reaction to Rose saying that there was nothing to keep her there was good.For an episode with so many Daleks you didn't get to see them doing much.It also had a really bad line in "Somebody needs a doctor" which just didn't work at all.
Looking at what I typed it may come across as a bit negative but as the last episode I feel it could have been a lot better.I still can't wait till christmas though.

Lightness of being triumphing over physical self-loathing... subtle as a brick.

I just flipped through some of the discussions at Outpost Gallifrey about the spoilers that appeared in the papers this week - I can't believe how much would have been ruined if I'd seen these! The appearance of the Dalek Emperor, the regeneration, Bad Wolf...

BTW - a trailer for the Chrimbo special is out already. Compiles bits from this series with a "The countdown to the Christmas Invasion starts here..."

"And La Diva Tennant will be great."

I reckon tennant will be a proper British Doctor WHo of the old style.  I reckon he'll be absolutely fantastic.

I was initially pleased Eccleston was just on for one series, but actually I'd like to have seen where he went from here really.  

BUT as I said, those reservations are swept aside by the fact I think Tennant will be a really good eccentric Brit Doctor Who.

Overall I'm grateful it just wasn't an embarresment, the fact I really enjoyed much of the series is a real boost.

Thought the ending was a bit of a cop out also, was a bit (only a little bit) disapointed by the Bad Wolf thing, and didn't like the way the doctor saved Rose from her predicament (trying to avoid a minor spoiler!). Over all though it kept me glued to the tv and I thoroughly enjoyed this episode and infact the whole series, can't wait for more. I agree also that Tennant will probably prove to be a bloody good Dr.

So, what did the papers actually spoil? Everything?

As with the rest of the series, I thought it was marvellous entertainment. Oh, I could pick spots off it if I wanted to but I can't be bothered witheven the most obvious ones.

I loved that vertually no one got who Bad Wolf actually was, and even if it wa a little contrived, it had us all deliberating for weeks.

The ending was a little "where did that come from?" but hey, it's Doctor Who not some super pseudo interlectual sci-fi piece that requires a phd to follow the plot.

Brilliant entertainment for Saturday evenings and i'm gonna bloody kiss it for the next few months.

Too early to comment about David Tennent, but I do feel he's gonna have very big shoes to fill. Mind you, I hated when Jon Pertwee was "regenerated" back in 1974, and look how that turned out!  :)

Alan!

Pretty much.

Screen-grabs of the Dalek Emperor, the regeneration and the kiss between the Doctor and Rose, plus - IIRC - a lot of hints as to what "Bad Wolf" really was. If you'd been reading the tabloids - and to a lesser extent, the broadsheets - through the week, you'd have had the whole damn episode knackered by the time Friday rolled around.

I knew CE was likely to die in this episode, and I suspected it *might* be the Dalek Emperor returning, but if I'd known that in advance it would have really spoilt the experience for me.

This has been the one thing on TV that I can sit down at every week and not know quite what to expect, and that I can come away from feeling that I've shared the whole thing with millions of other people. Knowing what happened in advance would ruin that special part of the show, and I hope that the BBC can keep a tighter lid on what the papers know next time around...

Just watched the last two eps, and loved it. Total entertainment. I thought Rose was going to arrive too late and that She would emerge from the TARDIS to find the Doctor the only living thing in the area.

Still enjoyed what they did though :)

Bolt-01

I very much enjoyed this series and I loved this conclusion. This entire series has been more closely interlinked than previous ones, with the possible exception of "The Trial of the Time Lord" back in the days of Colin Baker. I had my doubts over Christopher Eccleston with his leather jacket, but he really showed himself to be a worthy doctor. I suppose every one of them brings something to the role.
I am eager to see the next series...

Grr. I've just read that Mediawatch are lodging a complaint with the Beeb over the kiss between the Doctor and Jack.

Twats.

It had to happen though, didn't it? I mean, somebody was about to complain about it...

Just watched part of it again. I liked Tennant at the end, if that's anything to go by he should be quite good...

I just think it's such a shame that a show with - IMO - such a positive message (and this episode in particular) becomes a target for people like Mediawatch because of a platonic kiss.

"I WILL BE THE EMPEROR...GET FLIDOR GOLD, QUARTZ AND ARKELLIS FLOWER SAP...I MUST HAVE A SPECIAL CASING."

Well, it just shows Mediawatch for what they are. I think they'll find very little sympathy in general beyond Gary Bushell, and others who would like to exterminate all gays.

Just found out my old amstrad twin deck video didn't record Dr Who, and so... tomorrow, when I'm sobre, it's going in the fucking wheely bin.  I'd try it now, but I'm afraid of Autons.

Looking up media watch, I was confused to see that they seemed quite sensible, that's because I was actually looking at mediamediawatch, the people who watch mediawatch.

Mediawatch are obviously mentallists of the most devoted kind.

Link: They watch the weirdos

That was bloody great!

The best bit: watching Casualty, and my son commenting that it'd be great if a Dalek arrived in the hospital and exterminated everyone.


And as for Bad Wolf: maybe I picked it up wrong, but I got the impression that it was the TARDIS that was doing it?

I think you picked it up slightly wrong, Rac. Here's my reading of it:

After being sent back to her home by the Doctor, Rose notices the words "Bad Wolf" scrawled all about her. She realises that if the words are appearing here, and in the future and everywhere she and the Doctor have been, they *must* be some kind of message to her.

She redoubles her efforts to force her way into the Heart of the TARDIS so she can try and make it return her to the Doctor aboard the GameStation. She eventually manages to open the panel, and gazes into the Heart. The TARDIS dematerialises, returning to the GameStation.

By this time whatever is in the Heart - called the Time Vortex here, IIRC - is running through Rose, giving her almost godlike powers. As she emerges from the TARDIS she sees the Badwolf Corporation logo and finally realises what "Bad Wolf" means:

It's a message from her self at *this point in time* to her earlier self, convincing her to return to this point with the power from the TARDIS so she can save the Doctor and destroy the Dalek fleet. To close the loop, she must now send a message back through time that will appear wherever she goes and at that crucial moment earlier in this episode. Latching on to the first pair of words she sees - "Badwolf" - she uses the power of the TARDIS to cast this message across time and space.

So, we've got a classic paradox - without having seen the message, Rose wouldn't have known to keep trying to force the TARDIS to return to the Doctor, but without having returned to him, she would never have been in a position to send the message in the first place - and a rather neat resolution of "Bad Wolf".

Well I loved every minute.

Looking forward, I think Tennant's going to be mighty. He can do the madness, and if his (albeit minor) role in the new Quartermain is anything to go by, he can do the dark stuff too.

Roll on Xmas.

Just finished watching it and my views follow general consensus as well. I particularly liked the regeneration sequence, and Tennant's opening lines were suitably quirky.

(btw, Endjinn; *was* that you I spotted at the Fantomas gig tonight?)

Can't really add to what a friend thinks:

"Oh how I was looking forward to this episode. Last weeks was great,
and all week I've been waiting with baited breath to see what
happens only to feel like a 1940's child who waited all week to see
how Flash Gordon escaped from the horrible mop monster of Mars only
to find on seeing the recap that he never even met it in the first
place.

what a crock of badly paced, piss poorly written shite.


Let's for old times sake list what was wrong with the episode shall
we?

The paceing.  It was soooooo slow. Endless cut a ways to Rose and
her thick ass family when everyone wants some Dalek action.

The plot. Was there one?

The ending: What was that? It was the Dr Who equivilent of
saying 'the wizard did it' to cover up the huge plot holes. Having a
character become godlike to resolve the problems then convieniently
losing the powers is so old it's pathetic. Does Russell T actually
watch tv and films? Is his role model George Lucas?

And now some general nit picks.

A big fuss is made of Mickey needing a bigger vehicle to open up the
Tardis. Erm Hello????? It was the bleeding chain that snapped not
the mini giving out? A bigger truck should have made no bloody
difference as they used the same piss arse chain? Perhaps the wizard
did it?

Why did Rose make the whole Bad Wolf thing so criptic? Why not just
leave a note on the fridge? It's like trying to remind yourself to
fill the car up with petrol by having the cat leave alternately
coloured lego bricks around the house.

Why spend a whole episode making the 'plot device' machine only to
not use it or even make a big fuss of it? What was the point? To
keep the Doctor out of the action? Why do it? It makes no sense?

The Doctor couldn't use the weapon because it would destroy earth
too. Erm... didn't they just say the population had been almost
wiped out by the dalek's continent moving weapons? And why would the
Daleks destroy the population when two seconds earlier they were
planning to use them to make more daleks?

What exactly was the point of the tv shows plot from last week? The
daleks wanted to keep the population subdued for invasion? But then
wipe out the planet instead?

Rose becomes Buffy. Why? What a shite idea. Poor writing at it's
worst. Perhaps the wizard did it?

The regeneration. It looks more like poor Chris had had a dodgy
curry. Why does he think gurning is a good way of getting over
emotion? Wouldn't it have been better to have had the Doctor die in
a slightly more heroic way? I can think of about 30 ways off the top
of my head that would have had more dramatic interest."

But apart from that, you liked it right?



Amstor: yeah, your read sounds better than mine, but mine's quicker to say!
Much like Mangamax's 'A wizard did it', 'The TARDIS did it', is snappy.

So Rose becomes a literal deus ex machina - a god from a machine - to get rid of the Daleks.

Slightly disappointed that Tennant isn't going to be Scottish, but looking forward to his run. He has a great ability to do both light and shade without trying so hard (as was sometimes Eccleston's problem).

The regeneration was a nice suprise, as I wasn't expecting to see it here (I'd avoided all spoilers this week, but assume this had probably been leaked), I thought we'd get to see it at Christmas.

Yup, it was me. A mighty damn good gig it was too.


Watching the episode again this morning I was doubly impressed by the looks of Jack's face when he saw the Tardis leaving without him, and Mickey when Rose said there was nothing left for her in London 2005.

I thought Tennant went down as saying that he was not going to cover up his Scottish accent this time...

And yeah, I thought it was going to be at Christmas as well. Although, I do think it was very nicely handled here.

I agree that the ending was another cop out, and I thnk theya re really going to have to work to actually have proper plots next year or people are gonna get pretty tired of these magic resolutions. However, on the whole I enjoyed it.

to take some of the nitpicks...

"Why spend a whole episode making the 'plot device' machine only to
not use it or even make a big fuss of it? What was the point? To
keep the Doctor out of the action? Why do it? It makes no sense?"

The Doctor was hoping he could make it Dalek specific if he had enough time. In the end, he didn't, so was left with a machine he could only try and bluff the Daleks with.

What exactly was the point of the tv shows plot from last week? The
daleks wanted to keep the population subdued for invasion? But then
wipe out the planet instead?

I thought it was purely to get more genetic material, after running out of "prisoners and refugees"

but to add more from last week:  

Why did Lynda initially tell The Doctor it was "brilliant" he had been chosen to be in BB?

Why did the controller put Rose and Jack in instant Death Games, rather than in other BB houses, where they would be safeuntil the Solar Flares?

Maybe the Controller just didn't give a damn about his companions, but didn't want to leave them floating around in the TARDIS in case they tried to track the Doctor down?

And to pick up on the nit picks...

The whole Bad Wolf nit pick isn't really justified either. It's quite obvious at that point Rose is not her self, she's dying and she's talking in riddles. I doubt any human would think straight with that amount of power inside them, so she latched onto the first words she saw and cast them throughout space and time.

The way I see it, you an either watch it and look for stuff that's wrong, or just watch it, go with the flow and enjoy yourself.

I think people are enjoying it, but it's hard not to see problems with it.  By pointing them out, they hope they'll be resolved in future.  I think Watcher has a point, if there is a consistant flaw, people will eventually spot it, and when you see how a magician does their tricks, the magic fails to satisfy.

If you really enjoy something, you can forgive it's faults, what's perfect after all?  But if those faults spoil your enjoyment a little, it's fair to flag them up.  We shouldn't have to turn off our brains to watch a TV show.

I think they've gone for what's emotional and cool at the expense of what makes sense at times.

I personally thought that Bad Wold was a self creating concept, that happened and would happen again whenever the time vortex was threatened.  But I'm not sure it really is here.  The only threat is to the Earth, and the galaxy will be full of Daleks, which is a problem we've had before.  Unless by killing the Doctor, time would be in trouble at some point in the future, and this was the point to stop it.  But that's all so far off the tracks, that it's not a reasonable answer.

Basically it was some magical gubbins to make rose be the hero and save everything at the end, tying in the words bad wolf.  I had hoped there would be something more complex to the build up of bad wolf, beyond the words, but that's all it was, a few post it notes in time.

There is the danger that people actually say, after they've thought about it, that they still don't know what Bad Wolf is.

I watch it, enjoy it, then as I think about it later, it all starts to unravel... :)

Anyway, my video player has paid the ultimate price for not recording Dr Who and is in the bin.

Now, where did I put that spare video...

I'l be taping the repeat tonight.

And I have a question. The Doctor mentioned that the daleks call him 'The Oncoming Storm' or something. Is this from the comic strip? Only I seem to recall something like this in one of them...

I just thought it wasn't the best wrap-up to the series, myself, but some people seem to either be reading too much into the fact that RTD isn't that great a sci-fi writer (hence his not being able to deliver a resolution as satisfying as anything the fans were thinking of), or they seem to almost be taking a bad episode of the show as a personal affront to their intelligence - the show is camp nonsense and should be enjoyed as such.  It's probably worth bearing in mind how awful quite a few people suspected the series would end up being *coughcoughRandallAndHopkirkDeceasedcoughcough*.

Yeah - I'm with the Bear on that point - the series should by rights have stunk.  I suppose its the fact that so much of it is good, that the silly bits and odd resolutions to things stand out even more.

*coughcoughRandallAndHopkirkDeceasedcoughcough*.

Hey, some of us liked that y'know!  

 I've been genuinely surpised by how good a series it's been and how far it's managed to reach people who never talk about or watch science fiction. Seeing kids running around pretending to be daleks has been great, particularly as i was expecting the show to be awful.
 Best british genre show since ultraviolet.

Rac -

It's from one of the novels, according to my quick Google of the term.

Cheers Amstor.

Isn't it great being a nerd!!?

And I have a question. The Doctor mentioned that the daleks call him 'The Oncoming Storm' or something. Is this from the comic strip? Only I seem to recall something like this in one of them...

The Daleks called him 'Ka Faraq Gatri' (Bringer of Darkness) in the comics, if I recall.

Rac -

Heh, 'tis indeed ;-)

JimBob -

I've actually just bought the Ultraviolet DVD collection, and I'm struck by how good it actually was. I slagged it off in a thread a while back, and Gary defended it so I thought I'd take a chance on the DVD, and I've been very pleasantly surprised.

Until Dr Who, Ultraviolet was my favourite "cult" show ever.

Dr Who was 13 weeks of fecking marvellousness.

Joe Aherne - creator of Ultraviolet is down to direct more episodes of Who in series two.

I agree with all the criticisms - I just didn't care when I was actually watching it.

Bloody excellent performances and SFX.  

Ultraviolet was crap.

I liked ultraviolet as well.  It deserved another series, it was well classy, and was itself quite  abreak out from all out geeky SF/horror.   I remember some very odd late night scheduling, which might not have finished it off, but it can't have helped.

The Daleks called him 'Ka Faraq Gatri' (Bringer of Darkness) in the comics, if I recall.


Cheers Lobo, that may be what I was thinking of. Was it in a one off Dalek story, with the 2nd Doctor and Jamie? In a special or something..?



I only saw Ultraviolet for the first time in a Sci-fi channel rerun, and it was brilliant. A real shame it never came back.

I've really enjoyed so many aspects of this series, but sudden magic powers that give Rose power over death and the ability to dissolve matter with her mind?

Nah.

Just plain silly.

I liked the last episode, but felt it could have been better, and I agree with all the (many) quibbles. Old Doctor Who had a lot of illogical and downright silly things happen, often very conveniently, because writers or directors couldn't see any other way round a problem. But with this new series you get the distinct impression it's because no-one involved with the production really cares when it's the spectacle that counts more than anything else.

One of the things I liked most about this series has been the constant flirting, so it was nice to have an everyone-kisses-everyone-else final episode. Except that the Doctor and the Big Brother contestant didn't kiss - they built the tension there very well, and had Rose looking quite jealous.

I liked when the Anne Droid zapped one of the Daleks. Cool !

The one thing I was hoping to see but didn't was the Emperor Dalek retreating inside its casing and moving about. That might have been quite cool. But where would it have gone? Over to the satellite, maybe.

So where did the Emperor Dalek come from? I missed that bit. Doh! Did it survive the Time War, or was it the one that was held captive in the earlier episode? I should have listened more carefully.

It was the only other surrivior of the Time War... It surrvived in much the same way as the lask Dalek, but actually did something about it as opposed to sitting around as a museum piece...

Hmm. So for the next appearance of the Daleks, they just need to uncover another isolated survivor of the Time War.

Lame.

No, as they'd have to find the 'only other surviving Time Lord' first ;)

Well, I was thinking that the Emperor Dalek may not be dead.
After all, it did calim that it could not be killed, that it was, after all a god. What if this was true, and it was?

One thing the writers/producer seem to have overlooked is that the Daleks must still exist in various points in history. For one thing they have had time travel, I'm sure of it. And for another, all the Doctor's previous adventures can't be presumed not to have existed, can they? So that means the Daleks must still exist at points between Genesis of the Daleks, Day of the Daleks and Daleks Invasion of Earth and after, so the Doctor could still end up face to face with Dalek fleets from before the Time War took place?

The thing is, the Daleks might not be here for the next series (or so we are told!  would they tell us), so I think it's safe to assume that the Daleks aren't gone for good.

It's a good point about the other Daleks the Doctor has encountered.  I had wondered if the time war had been somehow stretched to encounter them all.  It's a bit mind boggling.

The doctor said he'd know if there were survivors.  But the Master is off in another dimension, and did the meddling monk and the rani get involved?  That's very geeky, and I appreciate nothing could probably have been further from RTD's mind when planning this series.  And of course that line might have just been a bit of heartfelt belief from the doctor.

My theory is the master will come back, press the fast return button, and the daleks and the time lords will be back, and we'll see the time war play out.  I love Time Lord and Gallifrey stories, and think for the moment they are sealed in their own little bubble of improbability, just waiting to be released.

Best of all, I don't know, have no idea.  We'll just see what comes along.

Oh and one thing from Outpost Gallifrey, via the Sun.  I'm so convinced it's nonsense, I'll post it up.

"Rumors abound, mostly in a report in Saturday's The Sun, that the BBC has approached Elisabeth Sladen to reprise the role of Sarah Jane Smith along with her robot dog K-9 in next year's Doctor Who season. The Sun quotes Russell T Davies as saying "Talks are under way with Elisabeth Sladen to revive the iconic character Sarah Jane Smith, who is remembered by a whole generation of Doctor Who fans." However, there's no additional confirmation about this quote or the report itself."

You know, I think I'd shed a tear over that if it came to be.  My favourite assistant (TM), a lovely ending with the Doctor the first time round, K9, that loveable box on wheels, and the memory of the incredible (in a good bad way) theme tune from K9 and company.

On a par with Resurrection of the Daleks: superficially exciting but pointless.

Although my brain was disengaged (intentionally or not, I can't remember), the final episode annoyed me more than the previous week's. Anti-climactic. Illogical. Stupid. Look, obviously I wasn't paying attention but the Daleks are off destroying entire continents in mere moments yet it didn't occur to them that blowing up the space station might be a better idea when the Doctor lets slip that he's gonna create a Delta-Goodhram plot device. So Rose is Fenri . . . Sorry, Bad Wolf, cool idea, yet she can only use the vortex to leave obscure clues across time. What's 'Bad Wolf' got to do with anything? Even given that she's tripping her tits surely she could have come up with summat useful? Ah crud, somebody explain it to me 'cos I really can't be arsed to re-watch this tosh.

Then there's the trite heroics. And all that wonderful stuff about consequence completely ruined by having everyone (presumably) come back to life. Yeah, so what if the Doctor dies? He's got the power of regeneration, for fuck's sake!

The whole concept of the Daleks as religious zealot is far more interesting than Nazis with sink plungers but the dialogue -- of all things, given that this is Russell! -- ends up being sub-Life of Brian. And all that bollocks about purging these new Daleks of their humanity when they're all just as irrational as the wankers who gather outside the Big Brother house and cheer the latest eviction.

On the plus side, Tennant looks quirky and fun.

...that idea of the doctor bumping into Sarah could work, he could meet her as she is now and dicover K9 needs a bit of DIY and thus we get a new K9...

...and at the same time they could sort out just exactly when those u.n.i.t. stories of the Pertwee era were set...

How come the chain didn't break when they used the tow-truck, as it had with the Mini? Surely, irrespective of the force doing the pulling, it was the chain and not the vehicle which was the, ahem, 'weakest link'...?

M@

"the Daleks are off destroying entire continents in mere moments yet it didn't occur to them that blowing up the space station might be a better idea"

Forcefield around the station. Can't remember where it was mentioned, and as you aren't going to watch it anyway, I'm not going to take the time to check.

"What's 'Bad Wolf' got to do with anything?"

It's the name of the media company, and the first thing she notices when she exits the TARDIS, "possessed" by the Vortex.

"And all that wonderful stuff about consequence completely ruined by having everyone (presumably) come back to life."

They didn't; Jack did.

"Yeah, so what if the Doctor dies? He's got the power of regeneration, for fuck's sake!"

But it's still a big change for him, and for Rose. As was said at the end, she would never see him - in that form - again. It certainly upset the hell out of most of the kids who watched, because they obviously got that point - the Ninth Doctor was gone, and he wouldn't be back.

"the dialogue -- of all things, given that this is Russell! -- ends up being sub-Life of Brian"

In your opinion. I thought the Emperor Dalek dialogue was pretty damn good, and there are some fantastic lines in there (the "Filleted... pulped... *sifted*" one was a particular standout, helped along by the fantastic vocals of Nicholas Briggs)

...and yes, Tennant does look good :-)

Hmmpf - I know, that was a bit iffy. I think a more elegant solution for opening the TARDIS could have been found.

Have to agree. The Dalek dialogue was fucking brilliant.

'You may not leave my presence!'

'Predict! Predict!'

Lovely stuff.

I rather liked the Emp. Dalek's dialouge. He really gouded the Doctor along, really tried to get under his skin...

And of course accompanied by his Dalek chorus he was even better!  

And yes, I read it as only Jack being brought back to life. Though I'm not sure I agree with that... It *did* really drive home the point of what she was saying, and how are we going to find out what the fragger did in his two years of missing life if he's dead?

What really made no sense to me was that if the Timelords all have this wonderful Tardises (Tardii?) that have all got this vortex/heart thing in the middle of them then surely it would have been a piece of pish for them to wipe out the daleks yonks ago.

I know the whole series had been gradually revealling the power of the Tardis and on the surface it looks like clever writing but for me it was just a bit weak.

I felt pretty let down by the ending - but on the whole I think the series had more "Wow" moments than cringe-inducing moments and came out on top.  

For a first season, I think they did well - can't wait for it to hit it's stride.

"how are we going to find out what the fragger did in his two years of missing life if he's dead?"

Er, meet him at another point in time before they met him originally.  As he had his brain wiped, it would explain why he wouldn't know them.

Watched the William Hartnel pilot episode yesterday...
So... the first three dimentions are height, width & depth - okay. The forth is time - check.
And the fifth is space, is it?

And with that I counter anyone complaining about cod-science in the latest series - which was bloomin' marvellous!

Cod science? in what episode did the doctor and Rose meet any sentient,technologicaly minded fish- and what was so objectional about the piscine science- was it like some naff role reversal thing were the sentient fish people, caught humans and used their technology to make them dumb and putting them in glass bowls or eating them, only for the doctor to save them all as he he is not affected by the dum,bness ray due to his Gallifreyness  

I really enjoyed this last episode (and pretty much the whole series).  My only complaint is a positive one, in that I'd have loved to see the Emperor Dalek stomping around exterminating a few things.  Big stompy robots, y'see?

Culturally, I think this series has been great:  you've got families around teles, all age groups can discuss it, it's not reality fecking tele, it's not a gameshowshow, it's not overly laden with irony-awareness, it's not American, it's not a soap opera and it's not pop-tarts 27.

It's easy to over-analyze it to death and make bizarre comparisons to earlier Who, in which we can gleefully forget that all the costumes, special effects and cardboard locations were actually crap, but why bother doing that?

Having seen Casanova, I'm happy with the choice for the new Doctor, although my sister is less so, declaring that he's a "weedy little shit", I think mainly because she's going to miss Christopher Eccleston so much.

But why does it matter if the Doctor is a 'weedy little shit' anyway? It's not like he's well... Captain Jack is it?

"It's easy to over-analyze it to death and make bizarre comparisons to earlier Who, in which we can gleefully forget that all the costumes, special effects and cardboard locations were actually crap, but why bother doing that?"

Having just recently watched two classics - Horror of Fang Rock, and Robots of Death - I'm quite happy to say that there were plotholes, iffy SFX, convenient coincidences and plot contrivances aplenty in even the best of Classic Who. However, the strength of the ideas being communicated, the conviction of the writers and actors and the apparent commitment of everyone involved took the show past these minor flaws - just as with this series, IMO.

This has been a fucking great first run, and for all its flaws it's still been the best damn thing on telly for the past few months. Fingers crossed for the Tenth Doctor!

Heh - indeed. BTW, isn't David Tennant over 6' something, anyway?

Despite all of it flaws in the last episode consider the following:

Only a few of those were really kinda "um...how's that possible?" moments and one of the words in SF is Fiction.

The bit with the Dalek outside the window with it's lights flashing in rythm to "exterminate" was bloody awesome and makes up for all of those afore mentioned flaws.

Tennant looks like he might be really good.

And I hated old Who. Everything looked crap, had awful music, took 12 episodes to do anything, involved gravel pits and often featured assistants with personalities that needed a good kickin'. This new one has been fun, looks great and has some interesting if not perfect storylines. Lots of people are diggin' it and if it remains ike this I'm sure they'll watch more.

Musics still crap though.

Finnigan Sinister

The thing with the Time War, which someone mentions on one of the episode of Dr Who Confidential, is that it was a war fought beyond time and space, which is why the Timelords and The Daleks are seen as legends, rather than historical species, by the humans of the future.

The Time War might've erased / messed with / altered a lot of the history of the universe, and who knows what kind of lasting damage / loss of interaction this could have had with the rest of the galaxy?

I liked it, some bits were a bit hokey but was fun. Pain we've got to wait until November for the proper dvd boxset.

Re: Ultraviolet was cancelled as it was filmed using film. It had the budget of a C4 film which was miles above what could be spent again nad they couldn't degrade the quality to normal video as it would look crap. Well that's what someone at work told me. Makes sense, it would have been great to have that come back, it was so well made.

    Another thread that I have enjoyed reading, especially where we find the wannabe critics.

    I just want to add one thing. My kids (all girls) are having a bitch-fest at school every day, because they are playing a game at playtimes. The game is Dr Who. The winner/most popular/most whining gets to be Rose. Next one gets to be the Doctor and the loser gets to be the Dalek.  Now the last program that I remember kids being so mad about is those bloody Turtles. And that was 20 yrs ago!

    So if you want to pick holes in the plot, go ahead. If you wan't to complain about ropey dialogue, go for it. But if you want to complain about it not being family entertainment, then get a grip and find out what kids really want.

    After all, how many shows make bravery and sticking by your mates core values?

"I just want to add one thing. My kids (all girls) are having a bitch-fest at school every day, because they are playing a game at playtimes. The game is Dr Who. The winner/most popular/most whining gets to be Rose. Next one gets to be the Doctor and the loser gets to be the Dalek. Now the last program that I remember kids being so mad about is those bloody Turtles. And that was 20 yrs ago!"

Fantastic! I love hearing these stories - and I'm hearing them from everyone with kids.

I'm delighted to see that the Daleks are striking a chord with children, but I'm also chuffed that the other new monsters - the Slitheen and the Empty Child in particular - are being picked up.

My friend's daughter spent an evening wandering after her mum asking, "Are you my mummy?" in a little sing-song voice. Amused her no end, but freaked her mum out! :-)

Fantastic! I love hearing these stories - and I'm hearing them from everyone with kids.


Yes, it is easy to forget that they are the audience for this show, not the 'adult' fan.
Peronally, it was delightful, on Saturday night, to hear my son outside playing, shouting at his mates, 'Doctor Who's coming on!' and then see the street suddenly empty of children.

Two nieces, aged 7 and 5 (I think), have been really enjoying Dr Who, watching it every Saturday evening. And yes, it was the Daleks episodes they've enjoyed more than anything else.

Has anyone been reading the BBC's Fear Forecasts?  They are still online, on the who site, a family of mum and dad and the four kids reporting on each episode.  It's entertaining and funny, and you see how kids today react to it.  Not always that different from the old days.

>> Forcefield around the station. Can't remember where it was mentioned, and as you aren't going to watch it anyway, I'm not going to take the time to check.

Yet a single Dalek is able to shoot its way in through a window.

>> ['Bad Wolf'] is the name of the media company, and the first thing she notices when she exits the TARDIS, "possessed" by the Vortex.

Sure, but it's still a lazy way of imbuing the series with a sense of mystery.

>> They didn't [all come back to life]; Jack did.

So all those other people weren't as worthy as Jack? How so? That's fucking shite morality.

>> But it's still a big change for him, and for Rose.

Not disputing that. But given the above, it still remains a token gesture on Russell's part for all those deaths the Doctor's responsible for.

>> In your opinion.

But of course :)

-- Yet a single Dalek is able to shoot its way in through a window.

Well, you can look at that two ways:

1) A little creative avoidance of the forcefield mentioned earlier to allow for a cracking spooky moment, or;

2) The forcefield was set up to stop Dalek weapons - missiles, beam weapons etc. - but obviously couldn't prevent the Daleks themselves from swarming aboard the station. Perhaps the forcefield is only in effect just beyond the station, so if a Dalek got close enough - within a few feet - it could blast its way in?

-- So all those other people weren't as worthy as Jack? How so? That's fucking shite morality.

Well I read that scene as Rose, possessed by the Vortex, starting to resurrect everyone who had died. She started with Jack, but the Doctor realised what the power was doing to her and stepped in before she could do any more.

It wasn't a case of choosing only Jack, rather that she was only given chance to resurrect him. Convenient, perhaps, but not a case of Jack being more "worthy" than any of the others who died.

Plus - it's not unfair to consider those closest to you as being more worthy then other people.

If I only had time to save one person, I'd choose the most important person to me.

What, Tharg?

It is unfair, to treat people you know as more worthy, but it's a completely normal unfairness, entirely human.  Who wouldn't save the person they cared for the most?  

I think she didn't save that woman coz she was jealous though.

No, whoever was sitting next to him at the time.

:: "Heh - indeed. BTW, isn't David Tennant over 6' something, anyway?"

I'm afraid that no amount of logic will sway my sister when she's made up her mind.  I did try to gently persuade her that she should give David Tennant a chance, but only time will tell (and I think it'll be her loss if she decides to dismiss him).

Regarding plot-holes (such as the force field not really protecting anyone), it is worth ignoring plot-logic sometimes in order to do something else.  

Peter Jackson said of the LOTR trilogy that anyone who felt that parts of the book were missing could pretend that those parts had happened, but we just never saw them.  

With a little bit of imagination, we could all think of multiple reasons for the Dalek's being able to circumvent the force field (not least that they'd had time to figure a way through it a la re-jigging the array in just about every Star Trek episode ever).

My mantra for those moments when my boring middle-aged logic centre gets in the way of a good story:  willing suspension of disbelief.

Amstors theory does make sense though, as Jack was the closest dead person to Rose at the time.

I admit I was wrong about Adam. Grr! But apologies to PVS.

Anyway, it was the ultimate paradox - everything I wanted in an episode and yet a real let down.

Bad Wolf, schmad wolf. Why not have the Doctor wake up and say "it was all a dream"? 'Cos it was as bad as that.

Anyway, I reckon Rose is the Master. (Hey, he was sucked into the Eye of Harmony and can possess people, so why not Rose?)

With a little bit of imagination, we could all think of multiple reasons for the Dalek's being able to circumvent the force field (not least that they'd had time to figure a way through it a la re-jigging the array in just about every Star Trek episode ever).

The station isn't protected by a force field anyway; the TARDIS has one (Jack says somethng about jury-rigging the space surfboard thing that the Slaveen woman had in episode 11), and the Doctor tells the broadcasting guy to put all their signals on maximum to stop the Daleks from transmatting in.

Unless there's something I've forgotten, anyway...

I think floors 500 to 496 had a force field which is why I think they started the defence on floor 495,I could be wrong though.

"But apologies to PVS."

LOL, really, no need it was a lot of fun.  Someone else told me their theory at the weekend and they had banked on Adam as well.  It seemed a popular theory, and I really was praying it wasn't true.  

I had wondered if he might get to redeem himself by using his forehead socket to communicate with the Tardis and help Rose to save the day.  But to be honest, I'm glad to see him gone.

And who knows, there's still time for RTD to bring in Adam and/or Davros in another series.

I even talked about Doctor Who at work, and it seemed perfectly acceptable (better not mention it for a while though).

With regard to plot holes, I just watched the episode and spent my time thinking "holy shit! that rocks!" rather than "hmmm, that doesn't work".

Even after reading about the myriad of niggles, I am still Loving It.

Whoever asked about Ka Faraq Gatri - You're spot on it was in a Dalek special some time around 93. It was narrated bt Victoria and was Martin Geraghty's first Who job - if I remember correctly.

Grey and Geraghty. Why aren't they working for the Meg, Mr. Barnes? You know how good they are.

aieee, haven't seen this one yet. They've been so damn good so far, I can't wait, me.

yours scouring Melbourne for tapes of old Dr Who shows

Whoever asked about Ka Faraq Gatri - You're spot on it was in a Dalek special some time around 93.

1993?! Bloody hell, you're right.

I don't know whats wrong with the years they have these days.  The years we had when I were a lad used to last much longer.  These days they just fly past without me even noticing them.

I blame the government.

"The forcefield was set up to stop Dalek weapons - missiles, beam weapons etc. - but obviously couldn't prevent the Daleks themselves from swarming aboard the station. Perhaps the forcefield is only in effect just beyond the station, so if a Dalek got close enough - within a few feet - it could blast its way in?"

The forcefield if you rem. rightly was like a cloak cast over the station, the Daleks entered at a lower level and moved up through the station. So all the Daleks outside had to do was go down and up and under the 'cloak' and float up to the level and blast away.

Thing that freaked me out the most was that the Daleks were Human!!!!

Another obvious but inexplicable plot point I'd forgotten from Bad Wolf - The Daleks didnt know about The Doctor when Rose gets zapped by the Anne Droid, so why didnt she end up being pulped and filleted? How did they know she was anybody?

Its actually a really shoddy episode in terms of logic - akin to your average blockbuster!

I loved it, yeah the ending was literally deux ex machinia but what the hey it was a fun, engrossing episode. The "God of the Daleks" was brilliant, almost made up for there being no Davros (who could be a neat why to bring them for the third series).

To answer some of your (nitpicking, killjoy points*)

The whole point of the delta wave was to mirror the choice the Doctor made in The Time Wars; then he had destroyed both good and evil because he believed the ends justified the means but this time he didn't. In doing so the 9th Doctor was redeemed, finally absolving him of the guilt he was carrying over The Time Wars (which must, please God be done as a HBO/BBC special at some point).

The forcefield was something Jack had built (you see him taking something out of the Tardis when they return from the Dalek mothership) and had first put onto the Tardis and then the space station. The forcefield was designed to stop the Daleks blasting the station out of the sky, it couldn't stop them physically entering. Doesn't make much sense I know but this little logic leap made for a better episode.

The whole point of Rose saving Jack is to show why "humans" shouldn't control the Time Vortex, they'll use it for their own personal motives.

The only thing I would agree, is that we should have seen more Dalek invasion action-that would've been sweet.

Will

-- almost made up for there being no Davros

Nah, the Emperor Dalek was a wonderful replacement for Davros. There was too much focus on Davros in the later TV series, to the detriment of both his character and the Daleks themselves. The Daleks have now been successfully reintroduced as the lethal, driven monsters that they should be, rather than the puppets of Davros that they became.

I would like to see Davros return, but separated from his creations - at least initially.

-- which must, please God be done as a HBO/BBC special at some point

I hope not. It's a cataclysmic event that works best unseen, and to turn it into some kind of fanwank "prequel" would be a big mistake, IMO.

-- The forcefield was something Jack had built

Actually, on rewatching the episode, the device Jack modified was the "surfboard" from "Boom Town". Very neat :-)

"to turn it into some kind of fanwank "prequel" would be a big mistake, IMO."

Shame, I know just the bloke for it...

Heh - and I believe his work schedule is looking quite free, as well...

As the Stones put it, 'You don't always get what you want, but just sometimes you just might get what you need'.

As a fan, getting what I think I want, is like being 5 and thinking that eating a barrel full of chocolate would be great.

Or I could just be tired, and it's time for bed.

I was just tired, and shouldn't have been reading that Eric Cantona book of Philosophy.

But I wouldn't want to see the time war made either.  Though it's going to be a bit of a cop-out if they just undo it.  And a bit crap if the time lords and daleks are gone, forever.

:: "to turn it into some kind of fanwank "prequel" would be a big mistake, IMO."

If only you'd been advising George Lucas a few years ago...

Rose was only able to save one person? Even though the Time Vortex is hers to command, albeit for a brief time only? Bah, summat else that passed by me. Yes, of course, of all the people who died, Jack is closest to Rose hence him alone being resurrected. Yet, because the morality/psychology of the situation isn't addressed, it does come across as though Russell has forgotten about all those other deaths 'cos, hey, y'know, they're only nameless faces in the background.

Only just watched it and there was more holes in it than my pair of socks, but overall the series has been enjoyable. Wish Jack had been left dead though.

I was thinking about the Time Wars and rather than a HBO/BBC crossover, why not make it a 'major motion picture'?

It seems easier to get a film commissioned than a series these days (cf. Firefly/Serenity) and there are other Dalek films.

The Time War could handle the regeneration between 8 and 9 either in a pre-credits sequence or midway through as a 'twist' for people who don't know the  Doctor's abilities (read US market).

As for the actors - McGann might want to show a bit of what he was capable of for the film and Ecclestone might be persuaded to sign on as the lead in a largish movie, regardless of typecasting nonsense.

One question - Gallifreans (sp?) can regenerate. Why haven't they?

I think it could be good - two super powers destroy each other one using brains, the other sheer bloody mindedness.

Doctor Who complete series DVD boxset set for release 21st November 2005 (?45 from Amazon or CD-wow)

And yes, it'll be in a Tardis shaped box.

The complete first series?

Don't think so

You're referring to the fact that it's not the first series, I take it.

Yes, that is very bizarre the way they've labelled it as such, Poor ol' Bill Hartnell.

Though to be fair, it is the only first series of Who thats complete...

Worst. Deus. Ex. Machina. EVAH!

Worse even than "Sinbad And The Eye Of The Tiger"?

"Worst. Deus. Ex. Machina. EVAH!"

Not really, I'm afraid.

i think that the new doctor who series was dissapointing. it took it self to seriously and billie piper sucks!!!

Where's "seriously"? Is it in Europe?

Personally, I think that one of the reason's it was so successful was because it didn't take itself too seriously (a couple of episodes notwithstanding). You want a show that does, then take a look at the current stories being shown on UK Gold (back end of Davison, beginning of C Baker) for a show that's wrapped up in it's own self importance that displays very little humour at all.

Alan!