Alan Moore Dredd story

Richard · 29 October, 2011, 08:41:24 PM

So according to Gary Spencer Millidge's biography "Storyteller," Alan Moore wrote a Judge Dredd story which was never published. Any chance of Rebellion digging it out and publishing it?

JOE SOAP · 29 October, 2011, 09:58:56 PM

Before Alan's work was published in 2000AD he sent a Dredd spec script to Alan Grant (editor). It was rejected -they didn't need another Dredd writer- but Grant sent him notes on how to improve his writing and asked him to submit stories for Future Shocks. His Dredd script's not particularly good but was published in The Extraordinary Works of Alan Moore (2009).

maryanddavid · 29 October, 2011, 10:56:51 PM

Wasnt the Killing joke originally started as a Batman/Dredd crossover?

David

JOE SOAP · 30 October, 2011, 12:00:41 AM

Moore worked on a Dredd/Batman book in 1984, he scripted some of it and I believe artists such as Alan Davis were approached but IPC rejected DCs crossover proposal. Bolland round the same time had finished Camelot 3000 and was asked what he wanted to work on next to which he requested Batman with a story focusing on the Joker due to the characters similarity to Judge Death. It was Bollands project and Moore was hired to write a separate story from the earlier Dredd project.

Though I'm no fan of the Dredd/Bat crossovers -apart from Vendetta in Gotham- it's a pity Killing Joke wasn't a Dredd/Bat book, it might have improved it a bit as it reads rather flat and lacking another story element, Dredd could have been an interestingly 'sane' witness to Bats and Jokers madness.

Jimmy Baker's Assistant · 30 October, 2011, 01:02:23 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 30 October, 2011, 12:00:41 AM
Though I'm no fan of the Dredd/Bat crossovers -apart from Vendetta in Gotham- it's a pity Killing Joke wasn't a Dredd/Bat book, it might have improved it a bit as it reads rather flat and lacking another story element, Dredd could have been an interestingly 'sane' witness to Bats and Jokers madness.

Not sure how you manage to read it as flat. Killing Joke is one of the greatest comic stories of all time and what it really doesn't need is some half-baked crossover element.

My personal regret about KJ is that Bolland more or less gave up strip work after doing it, because much as I love his covers I really don't care very much about covers.

JOE SOAP · 30 October, 2011, 01:57:50 PM

Quote from: ChrisDenton on 30 October, 2011, 01:02:23 PMNot sure how you manage to read it as flat. Killing Joke is one of the greatest comic stories of all time

I disagree, it's the least impressive/substantial of Moore's other work at the time and had a very flat reaction upon release. Bolland did a sterling job but the story just doesn't do the art justice, Moore himself admits it's not 'a very good book'. As for it being considered 'one of the greatest comic stories of all time' well that just sounds like the usual hyperbole. It may be one of the most influential or the best Joker story but not one of the greatest comics. At best it's an interesting single issue short story or interlude in a greater arc/history without too much incident. Certainly Moore's other single issue work in the DC Universe at the time had so much more going on but the Killing Joke is more style over genuine substance.

JOE SOAP · 30 October, 2011, 02:06:09 PM

Moore -who was more than capable of pushing material in profound ways- was only allowed or felt he could take such a revered and constricted property so far in a limited page space and to some extent Miller had all ready redefined Batman with the Dark Knight Returns so there was nowhere Moore could really take Batman at the time without it being anticlimactic. To me the Killing Joke isn't even as good as his 2000AD work. Bolland is the star of the piece.

Alski · 30 October, 2011, 03:06:18 PM

Well I love it. Great story, brilliant art, deserves it's legendary status.

Couldn't giove a toss what Grumpypants Moore thinks.

Jimmy Baker's Assistant · 30 October, 2011, 03:42:44 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 30 October, 2011, 01:57:50 PM

I disagree, it's the least impressive/substantial of Moore's other work at the time and had a very flat reaction upon release. Bolland did a sterling job but the story just doesn't do the art justice, Moore himself admits it's not 'a very good book'. As for it being considered 'one of the greatest comic stories of all time' well that just sounds like the usual hyperbole. It may be one of the most influential or the best Joker story but not one of the greatest comics. At best it's an interesting single issue short story or interlude in a greater arc/history without too much incident. Certainly Moore's other single issue work in the DC Universe at the time had so much more going on but the Killing Joke is more style over genuine substance.

I used to read Batman a bit back in those days and I couldn't understand why The Joker was such a two-dimensional psychopath in everything else. Now I understand it's because Moore is a much better comic writer than everyone else. He's too good to work for a company like DC, in fact, which is why his only significant Batman story is such a unique achievement and so highly regarded by most discerning comic fans.

Greg M. · 30 October, 2011, 04:17:42 PM

I actually agree with Joe. 'Killing Joke' is a very competent piece of work, but to my mind it's far from close to Moore's best. It's an artist's showcase first and foremost, and while Bolland excels himself, I also feel there's something missing from the script side of things that would make it truly great. I agree that what Moore thinks about it personally is irrelevant, and it has undoubtedly been influential on the depiction of the Joker and the Batman / Joker relationship, but to me it's not a patch on, say, Halo Jones Book 3, in terms of ideas, execution or greater profundity.

As for the notion that Alan Moore is too good to work for DC... well, he'd probably agree with you, Chris. But are you saying that Moore is somehow on a different level from every other writer ever to work for DC before or since? 'Cos I can't remotely agree. He's one of the greats, no doubt about it. But he's hardly untouchable, unequalled or unsurpassed. He has his highs, he has his lows. Ah well, it's all subjective, innit?

Colin YNWA · 30 October, 2011, 04:55:53 PM

Quote from: Greg M. on 30 October, 2011, 04:17:42 PM
As for the notion that Alan Moore is too good to work for DC... well, he'd probably agree with you, Chris. But are you saying that Moore is somehow on a different level from every other writer ever to work for DC before or since? 'Cos I can't remotely agree. He's one of the greats, no doubt about it. But he's hardly untouchable, unequalled or unsurpassed. He has his highs, he has his lows. Ah well, it's all subjective, innit?

This completely. Now I know I have a natural bias here being a big DC fan and all but I do think sometimes there's also a bit of a myth of Moore. He's a great writer, is he perfect, far from it. Is his work the best out there? That's open to debate (and I think I'd be in the minority and say its not). Is in in such a different league that he has to be placed in a different 'league' of writers on his own. Absolutely not. He's good, very good but that's all.

Jimmy Baker's Assistant · 30 October, 2011, 06:15:39 PM

Quote from: Greg M. on 30 October, 2011, 04:17:42 PM
As for the notion that Alan Moore is too good to work for DC... well, he'd probably agree with you, Chris. But are you saying that Moore is somehow on a different level from every other writer ever to work for DC before or since? 'Cos I can't remotely agree. He's one of the greats, no doubt about it. But he's hardly untouchable, unequalled or unsurpassed. He has his highs, he has his lows. Ah well, it's all subjective, innit?

He's "too good" on the grounds that DC won't give him the creative freedom he needs, and any creator of the first rank in any medium deserves.

And yes I am saying Alan Moore is a better writer than anyone who has ever written any comics ever in comics history. That is indeed a subjective opinion, but I don't think a particularly outrageous one given everything the man has done.

I'd be very interested to know who you would consider had surpassed him?

Alski · 30 October, 2011, 07:04:57 PM

In the realm of superhero comics, Alan Moore is not half as good as Brian Bendis. In my opinion, natch.

Moore just seems to get more and more up his own arse. Always been an eccentric, but for me his very best stuff was in 2000AD, plus Watchmen.

Greg M. · 30 October, 2011, 07:06:50 PM

Quote from: ChrisDenton on 30 October, 2011, 06:15:39 PM
And yes I am saying Alan Moore is a better writer than anyone who has ever written any comics ever in comics history. That is indeed a subjective opinion, but I don't think a particularly outrageous one given everything the man has done.

I'd be very interested to know who you would consider had surpassed him?

I think your statement's pretty sweeping, but no, I won't call it outrageous, Chris, and fair play, it's not like you nominated Mark Millar or anything. I am pretty sure there would indeed be many, many fans out there who would agree with you re: the talent of Moore. Personally, my knowledge of comics is really just UK and US with the tiniest smidgeon of European, so I'd struggle to claim anyone as The Best on that basis. I don't think there is one 'best writer ever' – I think that Moore has a secure place in any list of the finest writers Western comics have ever seen, but as Colin says, I do not think he holds an exalted position that sets him apart from a host of other great writers.

But to answer your question directly... John Wagner. I know that Moore writes about a page for a panel description and Wagner does around a line, but Wagner has written things that have moved me emotionally in a way that Moore has seldom achieved. (Not never, but not as often.) I think Wagner is as good as anyone I've ever read and one of the most underappreciated writers ever in the wider comics world. (Not by us lot on the forum, of course.) Who else? Peter Milligan. John Smith. These chaps have written things that I've enjoyed more than, say, 'Watchmen'. And of course, Grant Morrison. Didn't I read on your blog that Zenith was your favourite comic strip ever? You wouldn't reckon Morrison was on a level with Moore? I'll take All-Star Superman and put it head to head with the best of any era.

And that's me staying within 2000AD-related territory... I'm sure Colin can give you a good list of DC writers, say, who we'd regard as top tier.

Colin YNWA · 30 October, 2011, 07:15:16 PM

I'm not sure if this question was directed at Greg specifically but since I'd suggested that there are better writers than Alan Moore I really should be able to stand up and be counted. Please remember this is a subjective thing and I fully accept that, but in general terms I think Pete Bagge, Bob Burden, Will Eisner and Eddie Campbell and possibly Scott McCloud have all done work that have surpassed him. Dave Sim at his best has also but then that can all get a bit confused in the mix.

In terms of mainstream writers I think Jack Kirby and Grant Morrison at least are better. Some of the more modern writers may well stake a claim but more time might be needed to get a clear perspective on that. There are a host of others I prefer as well, but that's a different scale I guess.

Likewise Alan Moore is cast in the shadow of any number of 2000ad writers but that gets too swamped affection to possibly be a clear judgement I definitely say John Wagner at his best is 'technically' better.