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Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)

Started by JayzusB.Christ, 06 May, 2013, 01:20:30 PM

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Jikan

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 03 November, 2013, 07:27:03 PM
That makes sense.  If Maximan is already possessed at this point, Zenith is indeed crucial to Lloigor plans precisely because he spawned Iok Sotot; the first Lloigor to break out of the Chimera universe back at the beginning of Phase 1 and the Dark God who paved the way for the Alignment.
Yes, that definitely rings right. The first pure-bred as opposed to engineered superhuman, who fathered the incredibly powerful Iok Sotot. When Sotot arrives to take on the Masterman twin's body in Phase 1 the doctor does comment about him being much stronger/more powerful (something to this effect) than the Lloigor who had visited her previously.

Colin Zeal

I'm a bit confused by this talk that Zenith fathered Iok Sotot. I assume it's a reference to the bit in Phase IV where Iok Sotot calls him father. I always assumed that this was just because Iok had possessed the body of Zenith's son. Is this not the case and Zenith somehow really was his father?

IndigoPrime

Zenith shags the clones, one of which gives birth to his son, which becomes/always was Iol Sotot (who's also powerful but dim, thereby rather taking after his father).

Colin Zeal

#78
But isn't Zenith's son just the shell used by Iok Sotot to manifest himself on this plane? Such as the Masterman body was during WWII? I thought I understood all of this but maybe not.

just to add: that's basically the same question I asked previously isn't it? so is this down to the Many-angled ones existing outside of normal time and space? So iok Sotot can be thousands of years old and also meet his father in Phase 1 before he is born sometime between Phase II and Phase IV?

Dandontdare

I must dig out my old progs for a re-read - this story seems to be far more complicated than I remember it being!

IndigoPrime

Quote from: Colin Zeal on 12 November, 2013, 03:10:11 PMBut isn't Zenith's son just the shell used by Iok Sotot to manifest himself on this plane? Such as the Masterman body was during WWII? I thought I understood all of this but maybe not.
Maybe. It's been a long time since I read Zenith; however, I seem to recall the superhumans 'gestating'/'ascending' in Phase IV and becoming everywhen at that point.

JayzusB.Christ

Quote from: Colin Zeal on 12 November, 2013, 03:10:11 PM
But isn't Zenith's son just the shell used by Iok Sotot to manifest himself on this plane? Such as the Masterman body was during WWII?

No.  Though He may not have been given that name, Zenith's son was Iok Sotot from the minute he was conceived; just as every other superhuman was a larval Lloigor.  The Black Sun was where they gestated into their horrific mature forms.  Zenith and St John simply chose not to gestate (and I don't blame them), and therefore remained in their larval forms.

Fully mature Lloigor, such as Iok Sotot and whatever it was Lux and Ruby turned into, could travel through time and space to possess superhumans, but this was unconnected to the fact that all superhumans were essentially ungestated Lloigor, whether they were aware of the fact or not.

Here's my earlier post on it, cobbled together from the opinions of someone on another message board who is clearly as unhealthily obsessed with Zenith as I am:

http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php/topic,38501.msg760692.html#msg760692


"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

AlexF

I've just finished reading the £100 giant and have to get my thoughts out – this thread seemed as good a place as any! Whopping great post coming up here, be warned...

It's probably the second or third time I've read the series (only read it in the progs before, and never all in one go). As evidenced by this 6-page thread, it's a pretty complex story and while it felt satisfying I'm damned if I could explain what's going on in it. And frankly this helps with my enjoyment a lot - if it made sense, I doubt it'd reward so many re-readings. I certainly didn't pick up on Chimera being a person, let alone specifically female, or on notice anything about time-travelling Lloigor being trapped in a loop of failure – something to look forward to next time I have a read!

As a youngster reading the Prog I hated Zenith, to the point that I gave up on Phase I around the time Red Dragon dies, and didn't read phases II or III. By the time Phase IV rolled around I was a bit older (I'd have been 14) and I actually quite enjoyed it, even though I had no clue about the wider story. I especially liked the chapters with Peyne ageing backwards. Sure, that trick had been done before but I thought Morrison's version of it was compelling. I think part of my initial reluctance to read was that Yeowell's art, great throughout, felt very grown up at the time, and not something I was drawn to as a 10 year old; (curiously I'd rate him as one of the more child-friendly 2000AD artists of today.)

Later re-reads didn't help much, although I did come to rate Phase II for actually being a nice little self-contained story that is easy to understand without being empty of content. Phase III always frustrated the hell out of me, until a couple of years ago when someone somewhere made the point that it was Morrison's take on 'Crisis on Infinite Earths', a series I've still not actually read. I understand it's many people's favourite, but frankly they're all wrong. (I'd agree Yeowell's art is at its experimental peak in phase III, though)

Basically, I have always been frustrated that Zenith, the series, was never, as young me wanted it to be, a story about a superhero who just wanted to be a popstar. I always loved the first episodes of each phase, and indeed tolerated most of zzzzenith.com, in which the boorish popstar angle is at its most prominent, and in which we get to see Yeowell's spot-on reinventions and subtle ageing of his lead. Eddie MacPhail is a great character, too.

So, on this latest read of the whole thing in one go, I approached the strip as a long-form tale about many-angled dark gods and superhumans in general, not Zenith in particular, which certainly helped me to enjoy it more, although I'm still sad there were never any one-off tales about Zenith doing his thing as a popstar first and incidental superhero second. I was very surprised to note how fluidly the whole thing read – Morrison seems to have written it as a continuous story, although he does a decent job on the whole of creating neat 5-6 page chunks.

I had hoped that reading Phase III in one go (never attempted before what with all the Progs being scattered) would make me see its value but no, it was still pretty tedious – I'd have liked to know what it was that made some superhumans choose to turn bad while others stayed good, if indeed there was any logic to it at all. I'm also generally unsatisfied by superhuman fights that revolve around the winner just being stronger/more powerful/a better telepath (classic Mark Millar traits all), rather than there being some kind of outsmarting or hitherto unguessed application of a power – problems that affect Phases I and III more than the others.

For what it's worth, I'm of the belief that the ending of Phase IV, where Peter St John's (side note, do you say 'Saint John' or 'Sinjon' when you read it?) eyes go white, is purely generic convention – you know, did the evil creatures really win in the end or not – there is no true answer, just what answer you want there to be, or, in fact, no answer at all. (see also Inception, and indeed any film set in dream world, where the only possible way to end is on an uncertainty – is it still a dream, or is it reality?)

Ultimately, my hat is off, at long last, to Morrison and Yeowell's Zenith, a satisfying puzzle with no solution and therefore all the more shelf-life.

IndigoPrime

QuoteI'd have liked to know what it was that made some superhumans choose to turn bad while others stayed good, if indeed there was any logic to it at all.
Weren't most of the ones who turned bad possessed, and those that weren't just aching for the promises of power?

TordelBack

Zenith speculation/interpretation is the spinechat or shelfporn of actually reading comics: always welcome, always fascinating.

Cactus

I've just read this whole thread and the one JBC linked to in an *ahem* enhanced state of mind, with the collected edition to hand, and I think I need to have a little lie down.

It's a bloody brilliant comic though.
I'm a tucker hot seat trucker and I'm voking cheerio, ten-ten!

JayzusB.Christ

#86
QuoteI'm still sad there were never any one-off tales about Zenith doing his thing as a popstar first and incidental superhero second

I know what you mean; though there were quite a few drunken pop-brat related bits in Phases 1 and 4 (talking on the South Bank show about his switch to decent rave-inspired indie, shagging Naomi Campbell and apparently partying with Robert Smith, for example), and there was also one of the 2000ad specials that showed him partying with a host of other celebrities.  And there was some other actual music magazine (linked to in this thread?) that had a proper, pop-mag style interview with the obnoxious little twit.

QuoteI'd have liked to know what it was that made some superhumans choose to turn bad while others stayed good
Most definitely possession by Lloigor.  On the other hand there were a few shady things of a different nature going on behind the scenes in David Cambridge, Penelope Moon and Ruby Fox's cases; I see that as their preparing to put the Plan into place; and slowly beginning to realise how in order to do so, they themselves would soon pupate into the very same dark gods they were fighting.

QuoteI'm also generally unsatisfied by superhuman fights that revolve around the winner just being stronger/more powerful/a better telepath (classic Mark Millar traits all), rather than there being some kind of outsmarting or hitherto unguessed application of a power – problems that affect Phases I and III more than the others.

Not sure that can apply to Phase 1 - while it's not quite Watchmen-like in its intricacy (sorry, Grant), there was the nice little touch of Saint John implanting the telepathic switch in Masterman's mind in the Houses of Parliament, which was only revealed in the final stages of the fight against Iok Sotot.  It's not as complex as later Phases and I don't think the whole Zenith universe (multiverse?) was quite fleshed out in its entirety at that point, but the only real problem I had with it is that Grant Morrison depicted drunk characters while seeming to have no idea of how drunk people behave - though apparently he started getting pissed a lot in his thirties, so fair play to him for putting in the research.

Quoteside note, do you say 'Saint John' or 'Sinjon' when you read it?
Always the former - at the time, Greavesie's co-host was my only point of reference.

QuoteI've just read this whole thread and the one JBC linked to in an *ahem* enhanced state of mind,

Though I'm getting a bit too old myself for such enhanced states of mind and very rarely dabble in anything of the sort, I've always meant to read The Invisibles under the influence of something mind-altering.  I love Grant Morrison's stuff but I think I missed something there; seems like everyone gets it but me. 


"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

hippynumber1

All you need to do in order to 'get' The Invisibles is insert your head as far up your own arse as possible! I enjoyed a lot of it but, by Grud, there's a lot of pretentious wank in there!

JayzusB.Christ

Quote from: hippynumber1 on 14 November, 2013, 08:33:29 AM
All you need to do in order to 'get' The Invisibles is insert your head as far up your own arse as possible! I enjoyed a lot of it but, by Grud, there's a lot of pretentious wank in there!

Ha!  My flatmate claims he experienced some profound changes in his life while reading The Invisibles.  Maybe he grew an extra few vertebrae, as you suggest
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

Link Prime

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 14 November, 2013, 09:12:41 AM
Quote from: hippynumber1 on 14 November, 2013, 08:33:29 AM
All you need to do in order to 'get' The Invisibles is insert your head as far up your own arse as possible! I enjoyed a lot of it but, by Grud, there's a lot of pretentious wank in there!

Ha!  My flatmate claims he experienced some profound changes in his life while reading The Invisibles.  Maybe he grew an extra few vertebrae, as you suggest

Sometime on the late 90's I was walking out of Sub City (a Dublin based comic shop) with my monthly haul of funnybooks, including a couple issues of The Invisibles.
I was followed out the door by wannabe-Neo plank in a full length leather jacket, who started asking me questions along the lines of "Is there a reason you're reading that?"
And yes, he had the plain white badge on his jacket.

Embarrassed for both of us I simply smirked and got the hell out of there.
Wasn't your flat-mate by any chance Jayzus????