I thought I might as well start a thread on comics writing - I'm not a pro (and may never get a penny from comics) but am at the point where I've had to give the whole process a lot of thought.
First is the writing - not the actually formatting of the script (you need only look at some of the sample scripts* to pick up the formatting) but story pacing and the general mechanics. The medium brings with it a number of unique features like the page turn, which can be used to change a scene or you can keep a reveal for the next page (so the reader's eye isn't drawn to something that gives away a story element. You can pick up some of this through books (I've got Alan Moore's Writing for Comics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Moore%27s_Writing_for_Comics) but more to have a nose at the way he does things) but one of your best sources are the comics themselves and you already have the best teachers - the writers in 2000 AD, who are the best in their field (especially handy for learning from as they have to get a slab of story into 5 pages. Pat Mills' early ABC Warriors are great examples of writing a team comic story, which is difficult to do with only 5 pages (only Gordon Rennie has given it a proper shot in 2000 AD). You can also look to TV as 30 minutes can be a tricky length of time and, sticking with teams, you can also learn a lot from Dad's Army (the first major team sitcom and one of the few successful ones).
One thing I found... interesting was the Screenwipe special (season 5, episode 3) where Charlie Brooker interviewed various leading TV writers. Its in three parts here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifQsLMQhBrg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkdN02axkE0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY03pHxWeMQ
I thought it was a fascinating insight into the range of approaches to the process of script writing (and quite a bit of the advice/comments transfer over to comics), some of which sound like torture. The one I liked the best was Graham Linehan's and you know it can be just like having a poo. You need to feed things in one end, let everything break down and digest, then it needs to bake a while and when it is ready to come out it will - there is no point sitting on the can straining (it gives a whole new meaning to "staring at a blank sheet of paper").
I think the most important thing to bear in mind that finishing the script is just the start of a process. Obviously, the editor may want some changes or have some clever ideas (or not so clever ideas ;) ), but it is also the artist's job to tell the story visually. It may be you bump into the occasional artist who is just lazy or a bit rubbish (so they dump the background or details to make their life easier) but I've never encountered anyone like that myself. Artists can come up with a different way of telling the story visually or it may be you have added too much detail to sensibly fit in the panel (you need to keep this in mind and make sure you flag anything that is vital for the story so it doesn't get lost). I found it interesting reading TPO where it describes how the artists deal with Alan Moore's scripts (which are probably the most detailed in the business) - Ian Gibson just focused on the important things and Dave Gibbons drew pretty much everything he was asked, which made the latter the best choice for Watchmen as it required a lot of the detail to be as it was described. I often try and include what I was thinking of and similar cultural works (TV, books, paintings, etc.) as it is often useful to give the artist the general feeling of what you are aiming for and they can work out the details themselves. It may also be useful to give a quick run down of the characters at the start (note Russell T. Davies' ideas about providing quick thumbnail character descriptions) along with describing scenes in one place. This lets the artist get a much better grasp of the character/location than if you were to it piecemeal which could lead to confusion (if someone can get a view of the room in their head then they can figure out the details on any particular angle).
I've also found myself thinking about the process of writing as I've committed to writing more, soI need to get more efficient. I'm sure no advice will fit everyone, just analyse what you are doing - what works and what doesn't (dicking around on the Internet is a great way to waste time). As the "poo metaphor" works for me I try and have different stories at different stages of my "alimentary canal" so you can switch to one story, if you are fed up with another, which can keep everything moving along. It can also help you get passed the trickier stages, like giving the script the last final polish (in the metaphor this wouldn't be the turd you are polishing, but presumably your ringpiece) and you can use cracking on with a new script (or doing some research - whichever is best for you) as the carrot to get this done (although carrots near your ringpiece can be dangerous). I also find that Notepad can be your best friend - dump snippets, thoughts or lines in a file and you'll build up a solid body of ideas (also a paper notebook is handy too for those unconnected moments). I also now write the first draft in Notepad, as you can just hammer it out without any distractions (like dicking around with text formatting), then when you transfer it over into a word processing document it pretty much forces you to do an intensive run through on your second draft ( which is where I often spot any problems which might need a solid rewrite), print it out and go through it all again - each change of format can force you to re-engage with the script. However, that is just me, I'm sure you'll be different - you just need to keep an objective eye on what you do.
Anyway just a few thoughts, I've thrown some other in over here:
http://downthetubes.ning.com/forum/topics/writing-comics-useful-links
and John Freeman has prepared this:
www.downthetubes.net/writing_comics/index.html
I'll have a think about this and see if I can come up with anything specific but this'll do for now.
So over to you.
*The script archive at Barney has quite a few:
http://2000ad.org/?zone=droid&page=scriptindex
You can find some on the submissions page here:
www.2000adonline.com/subs.php
There are some recommendations for freeware writing tools here:
www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,29011.msg523464.html#msg523464
Excellent write-up Emperor!
I've just started writing comic scripts (not for any money mind you), transitioning from writing short stories and screenplays, and I made great use of a few issues of Marvel's "Eye of the Camera" series. In case you don't know, in "Eye of the Camera" a finished comic is presented with the script, allowing a would-be writer to compare finished panel to scripted panel - and we're treated to scripts by the likes of Kurt Busiek no less.
What has been working for me as far as writing scripts (now I have to figure out how to market them....thread?) is to storyboard key segments or scenes and jot whatever notes I need for scripting. This was something I did while writing screenplays for my short films - and even though what ends up in the finished project might be radically different, it helps me to get into the flow of the story and action and also makes me feel like I'm "catching the moment". Then I go back a shape it all up into script format.
Hope I don't sound like a know-it-all, cause this is just what works for me! I look forward to reading tips from others.
I wouldn't worry - I suspect everyone has their own way to get the best out of themselves, the important thing is to really work out what it is that gets your creative juices flowing. I did give storyboarding a go but I am so bad at drawing it would only confuse me so I have to rely on my mental projector (which sounds a lot more fun than it is ;) ).
That said there are clearly tips that are generally useful, like:
Quote from: locustsofdeath on 09 August, 2009, 12:01:07 AMI've just started writing comic scripts (not for any money mind you), transitioning from writing short stories and screenplays, and I made great use of a few issues of Marvel's "Eye of the Camera" series. In case you don't know, in "Eye of the Camera" a finished comic is presented with the script, allowing a would-be writer to compare finished panel to scripted panel - and we're treated to scripts by the likes of Kurt Busiek no less.
Sounds good - I'll keep an eye out for them. Along similar lines is the Cradlegrave script to page breakdown over on 2000AD Review.
Quote from: locustsofdeath on 09 August, 2009, 12:01:07 AM(now I have to figure out how to market them....thread?)
Sounds like a good idea. I suppose we could do with pitching, self-publishing and promoting threads. I'll post it up in the thread suggestions and see what people think.
A small press struggler's two cents:
Taking advice from screenwriters is relevant in my opinion. Screenplays and comic scripts are both basically instructions for visual mediums. You are describing a picture for someone else to make.
I can't stand comics with over blown narrative panels (usually filled with bad prose and/or unneeded exposition). They remind me of movies with irritating and unnecessary voice-overs.
The Show Don't Tell rule is often repeated because it's true. The audience like to process the information themselves. The cognitive process is stimulating. Info dump dialogue and narrative panels are boring. In the Brooker programme someone says that he'd rather be confused for ten mins than bored for an hour. While the most important thing is to remain coherent, I reckon temporary confusion is preferable to boredom.
...but then again, I don't want to be overly prescriptive either. I just think it's a basic in writing for visual media that is worth pointing out. There are always exceptions to the rule.
For what it's worth, I've applied the following simple rule to any scripts I've done for Futurequake:
What is written as two panels can be done as one.
The scary thing is, like some diminishing Moore's law, the rule holds true for three or four drafts. Only when you absolutely, positively, cannot combine a couple of panels is the thing right. Not good, but as good as it is going to be.
Quote from: HubertWindell on 10 August, 2009, 03:47:12 PM
A small press struggler's two cents:
Taking advice from screenwriters is relevant in my opinion. Screenplays and comic scripts are both basically instructions for visual mediums. You are describing a picture for someone else to make.
Very true - watching how shots and camera angles work can be a big help in describing panels.
Also something I forgot to mention is The Writer's Journey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Writer%27s_Journey:_Mythic_Structure_for_Writers). It started as a look at how Joseph Campbell's ideas on myths work in film but has changed to be a more general guide for all writers of stories (although it still has a cinematic focus. Best go for the most recent edition:
www.amazon.co.uk/Writers-Journey-Mythic-Structure/dp/193290736X/
It is important to know about such things, if only so you use it to subvert the reader's expectations - if they (even subconsciously) recognise the pattern then you can hit them with a swerve.
Quote from: HubertWindell on 10 August, 2009, 03:47:12 PMI can't stand comics with over blown narrative panels (usually filled with bad prose and/or unneeded exposition). They remind me of movies with irritating and unnecessary voice-overs.
The Show Don't Tell rule is often repeated because it's true. The audience like to process the information themselves. The cognitive process is stimulating. Info dump dialogue and narrative panels are boring. In the Brooker programme someone says that he'd rather be confused for ten mins than bored for an hour. While the most important thing is to remain coherent, I reckon temporary confusion is preferable to boredom.
...but then again, I don't want to be overly prescriptive either. I just think it's a basic in writing for visual media that is worth pointing out. There are always exceptions to the rule.
Yes, reading some earlier comic books can make you realise how clunky this can be. Good writers can still use this effectively (reading Fetish after Cradelegrave finished I was struck by how well John Smith evoked the stifling heat using very tight captions) and/or to make some kind of point. However, often it is there because of poor storytelling and/or literary pretensions.
This struck me when I was watching the Wire the other week when Chris Patlow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Partlow) brutally beat Michael's father. Given that the character has been set up as a cool and methodical killer the switch in behaviour implies this all happened because he was molested as a child or raped in prison. None of this needed explaining and it underlines the whole idea of treating the viewers as grown-ups and letting them work it out for themselves (which is much more satisfying).
Also while we are on story structure I stumbled across this today (on Bleeding Cool I assume):
www.dramatica.com/theory/articles/Dram-differences.htm
A couple of random links I found digging through my bookmarks:
Comic Boook Script Archive
http://www.comicbookscriptarchive.com/
Getting Things Written - Antony Johnston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Johnston)
http://www.antonyjohnston.com/gtw/
Dennis O'Neil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_O%27Neil)'s guide to writing:
www.bleedingcool.com/2009/09/30/how-to-write-comics-and-graphic-novels-by-dennis-oneil-1-first-class-discipline/
I want to start creative writing again. But I am well rusty and the inner voice a mere hoarse whisper.
Is there any pointers on getting back in the saddle and, you know, balking out the basics.
What about rules of scifi?
Short stories for a character you hope to expand upon?
Quote from: Krombasher on 30 September, 2009, 06:50:17 PM
What about rules of scifi?
Sounds like something from John Byrne's forum - "
Of course you can't say THAT - it's against the Rules of Scifi!" ;D
Quote from: Krombasher on 30 September, 2009, 06:50:17 PM
I want to start creative writing again. But I am well rusty and the inner voice a mere hoarse whisper.
Is there any pointers on getting back in the saddle and, you know, balking out the basics.
Write more, that's what I've found Krom. I hadn't done any creative writing for years till very recently and it's surprising how quickly you get back into it. I'm realising just how much I've forgotten about grammar and punctuation, but it's all good fun. Why not have a bash at the short story comp? Trying to write a decent 500 word story is an excellent exercise and it tends to make you leave out a lot of extraneous crap that you could probably do without (you grudgingly admit as you keep trimming away at the 600 word masterpiece you've lovingly constructed, swearing at the wordcounter).
Quote from: Krombasher on 30 September, 2009, 06:50:17 PM
I want to start creative writing again. But I am well rusty and the inner voice a mere hoarse whisper.
Chuck yourself in at the deep end, say I, and join in this year's annual National Novel Writing Month (http://www.nanowrimo.org/ (http://www.nanowrimo.org/)). Only 31 days away!
I know there's plenty of creative writing web sites many of which look at sci-fi and fantasy.
one of the ways I read about is to come up with the villain first, and then go on. why? Cos he/she/it is uusally the driving force behind the story. The "heroes/protagonist" are often reacting to the villain or thwarting their nefarious plans.That said i've not tried it myself but it sounds interesting. i might have a go!
Most stories have a basic structure-the heroes have to do something(hunt the killer alien/steal the wizards hard earned treasure), at a location(s) (eg.Death Star, Death world, Death alley/Watford/Mordor etc) whilst being confronted with some complications (the hobbits are all pissed/Space Marines on strike/rebels have become too jaded to carry on/main characters hate/love one other etc), AND facing (usually much more powerful) opposition. (eg.Dragons/Dark lords,Paul Daniels,armies of goons, etc)
wow that almsot made sense.
Quote from: Emperor on 30 September, 2009, 06:43:27 PM
Dennis O'Neil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_O%27Neil)'s guide to writing:
www.bleedingcool.com/2009/09/30/how-to-write-comics-and-graphic-novels-by-dennis-oneil-1-first-class-discipline/
Beat me too it. I thought this was a great article and if you're going to listen to anyone about this it might was well be a class act like Denny O'Neil... now to follow his advice!
Quote from: Krombasher on 30 September, 2009, 06:50:17 PM
I want to start creative writing again. But I am well rusty and the inner voice a mere hoarse whisper.
Is there any pointers on getting back in the saddle and, you know, balking out the basics.
What about rules of scifi?
Short stories for a character you hope to expand upon?
It is always a tricky one as everyone has to discover what works for them. Staring at blank sheets of paper and advice like "you aren't a writer if you aren't writing" isn't very helpful (and is probably the kind of thing writer's say to show off and intimidate the competition - see what Simon Spurrier wrote here (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2009/09/24/short-n-curlies-12-by-si-spurrier/)).
Personally I follow the Way of the Poo (as explained above):
- Eat - jam in ideas, thoughts, random thoughtfarts/brainguffs, news, blog posts, etc. Keep a notepad and perhaps a notepad document on your computer and jot everything down in there. I find misunderstandings can be useful, like completely getting the wrong end of the stick about what a film and TV show was about - if what you thought it was going to be sounded better then write it down
- Bake it - give the ideas time to break down, get churned up and sit there stewing in their own juices. You don't have to produce a 22 comic book a month at this stage so there is no need to force it. You can't have a poo if people keep coming around demanding your attention or you are being hassled every minute of the day, so try and set aside a bit of time when you have no distractions.. I find going for a walk on my own is a big help (just don't take your mobile with you)
Do all that and the ideas will be lining up to squeeze themselves out.
A character is a good idea (in this extended metaphor we can think of them as the fibre for a story). As you are sketching them out you are also shaping the fictional world they live in and its history. This should start to present conflicts and motivations based on their past and the way they interact with the world and starts to suggest possible story angles and other characters, which in turn brings in more ideas, sets up setbacks (especially where different characters trying to reach their own goals end up clashing) and before you know it you have a big working world through which your character can progress. You can then skip back or forward a bit and bang out an exciting short story which introduces the character a little and hooks in the reader who wants to know more. Bingo - it is time to take yourslef off to the smallest room (or wherever you keep the computer) and start squeezing out that story.
When you look back on how it all came about the seed for the whole thing might be tiny - a brief aside you make and then think "hold on." It then starts accreting a few other random thoughts you have in your head and then it acquires its own gravitational field and starts dragging in all sorts of bits and bobs. Granted we are now beyond the poo metaphor (unless you are very unlucky) and closer to the formation of pearls, but it does underline why you should keep an ear open for anything of interest as you never know when it could come in handy.
If ANYONE would make a poo analogy on this thread, I somehow didn't think it would be you, Emperor.....
Although that does sound rather good.
Quote from: Mike Gloady on 30 September, 2009, 11:12:22 PM
If ANYONE would make a poo analogy on this thread, I somehow didn't think it would be you, Emperor.....
Well I;m afraid online communication clearly doesn't allow one to give a proper representation of one's self. So while I am
always talking about poo in real life it probable doesn't come across when forced to type rather than blurt (as it gives time for your inner censor to kick in).
Orrrrr it is Graham Linehan's analogy which I found described my "process," when everything else sounded terribly tortured and not a lot of fun. Filling yourself with information, letting it all mix up and then not being able to stop it coming out pretty much summed up everything I've ever done. Luckily I have been able to use my powers for Good or the world would be a Darker Place but there was a time in my late teens/early twenties when it hung in the balance. I am only kicking up Linehan's ball around and seeing what happens (probably a very angry Irishman turns up on my doorstep).
You decide which option you prefer.
Quote from: Emperor on 30 September, 2009, 06:43:27 PM
Dennis O'Neil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_O%27Neil)'s guide to writing:
www.bleedingcool.com/2009/09/30/how-to-write-comics-and-graphic-novels-by-dennis-oneil-1-first-class-discipline/
Part two - more gold:
www.bleedingcool.com/2009/10/07/how-to-write-comics-and-graphic-novels-by-dennis-o%e2%80%99neil-2-%e2%80%93-recommended-reading/
That was good Emperor, cheers.
here's one for submissions for more general writing not just comic books.
http://www.duotrope.com/index.aspx
As i'm sure many are aware the credit crunch has hit magazines hard,even Weird Tales and some of the bigger SF/fantasy mags have been affected. So payment for many of these is poor or non-existant. Still it can get you exposure.(oo-er missus)
Quote from: Emperor on 07 October, 2009, 05:52:35 PM
Quote from: Emperor on 30 September, 2009, 06:43:27 PM
Dennis O'Neil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_O%27Neil)'s guide to writing:
www.bleedingcool.com/2009/09/30/how-to-write-comics-and-graphic-novels-by-dennis-oneil-1-first-class-discipline/
Part two - more gold:
www.bleedingcool.com/2009/10/07/how-to-write-comics-and-graphic-novels-by-dennis-o%e2%80%99neil-2-%e2%80%93-recommended-reading/
Now we are motoring with O'Neil's Industrial Strength Can't Fail Super Homogenized structure for a single-issue superhero story:
www.bleedingcool.com/2009/10/14/how-to-write-comics-and-graphic-novels-by-dennis-o%e2%80%99neil-3-%e2%80%93/
It is probably something most people
know but it is good to have it laid out so starkly. If nothng else it gives you the kind of template that the reader also
knows so you can mess with it to catch them off guard with some kind of swerve they weren't expecting.
Excellent post Emperor. Definitely food for thought. It reinforces my belief that talented individuals should collaborate to produce a finished product. On this site alone there are lots of aspiring writers who can't necessarily draw/animate and similarly I'm sure there are a lot of talented artists and animators who can't come up with a good story. Makes sense if they got together.
Indeed. It is tricky, because it is a lot of time and effort for little financial reward but there are people around who are happy to do it for the love of the medium and to get their work out there.
Also part 4 of Dennis O'Neil's column - this time looking at multi-issue stories:
www.bleedingcool.com/2009/10/21/how-to-write-comics-and-graphic-novels-by-dennis-o%e2%80%99neil-4-%e2%80%93-why-dont-you-grow-a-spine/
Writing for me is mostly a loner's game, but now and then I enjoy writing a script with someone that compliments my style - I'm not prone to humor unless I write with a partner.
And collaborating is so much fun; Uncle Fester and I worked on a short strip together and it turned out brilliant (of course I'm biased).
I think the theatre go-ers of your hometown might be biased too. You don't get a production put on of your script by being a slouch in the writing department....
Emperor:-
The Way of the Poo.I am in full agreement.
Being on the net only sporadically I am only on O'Neil writng class part 3.
Don't know if it's been mentioned but Robert Mckee's "Story" is another book cited by many writers.
it's aimed at screenwriters but still has a lot of useful stuff no matte what you want to write. i just started re-reading it and realise my stuff is pretty feeble.
OW!
There is now one easy link to Denny O'Neill's articles (I was going to say column but I know what you lot are like ::) ):
www.bleedingcool.com/category/how-to-write-comics-and-graphic-novels/
Jason Aaron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Aaron) has dropped in a few notes on his writing technique:
http://jasonaaron.org/blog/2010/02/15/notes-on-craft/
Pretty handy as a 22 comic book can seem intimidating to folks raised on 5 page chunks of story goodness, but no task seems massive once you start breaking it down.
Quote from: Emperor on 15 February, 2010, 06:31:35 PM
Jason Aaron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Aaron) has dropped in a few notes on his writing technique:
Fascinating piece, big fan of Jason Aaron.
Quote– I write people throwing up a lot.
He does, you know.
Quote from: Krombasher on 30 September, 2009, 06:50:17 PM
I want to start creative writing again. But I am well rusty and the inner voice a mere hoarse whisper.
Krom - I'm probably about 9 months ahead of you on the "just starting again after too long not doing anything" curve. Advice is: QUANTITY NOT QUALITY. Just write every day, even if it's for five minutes, random thoughts, descriptions of things around you, anything to get you into the habit of writing.
The other thing with Quantity Not Quality is that you shouldn't judge it. If you've got the discipline to do it, write something every day then lock it up. Don't read it for a month.
Good luck and happy fingers :-)
Some thoughts from the primary clone (or so he claims!!):
http://theprimaryclone.blogspot.com/2010/02/dear-ryan.html
http://theprimaryclone.blogspot.com/2010/02/dear-ryan-part-two.html
http://theprimaryclone.blogspot.com/2010/02/dear-ryan-part-three.html
He mentions the Guardian piece which I forgot to link to, leading off from Elmore Leonard's ten tips (which are classic) and including Neil Gaiman's (who only gives 8 and some of them might be seen as padding ;) ):
www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/feb/20/ten-rules-for-writing-fiction-part-one
John Wagner is in the Yap Shop right now...
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 24 February, 2010, 08:45:08 PMJohn Wagner is in the Yap Shop right now...
Are any of us worthy??
Not any more. He's gone 'ome. :(
He's got a bunch of animals and a family to take care of, give the man a break. Sides, we all need a bit more kip the older we get, eh?
Jimmy Palmiotti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Palmiotti)'s top ten tips for writers:
http://jimmypalmiotti.blogspot.com/2010/03/official-magazine-of-comic-con.html
All good stuff, especially the one about marrying. ;)
I might have to print that out and put it on the wall...
Next to my signed publicity shot of Emperor and the Fractal Boys, of course ;)
Quote from: Lady Festina on 11 March, 2010, 09:18:55 PMNext to my signed publicity shot of Emperor and the Fractal Boys, of course ;)
I think you might have us confused with Liquid Peter and the Shaved Boys, easy mistake to make - I don't resemble a lava lamp.
I have learned some great tips from this thread. Although I got my degree in writing (many years ago) instead of art I always felt more confident in knowing how to improve the art (currently action poses, -and therefore anatomy - colouring and perspective are exercising my brain matter).
Writing, however, I find difficult. Plot seems really difficult. One of the things I admire about 2000AD so much is the compressed writing style - how they get so much incident in 5/6 or less pages is amazing. In my latest story, I decided to go for a simple alien invasion plot (I don't normally have any plot at all) and nick a few ideas from Peter F Hamilton to get me started. It's been a lot better but it's still been very uneven and I find bringing action in very difficult. I love to draw characters talking on and on and on....
I'm also slower than any artist you ever met which is why I do it as a hobby. Oh and I keep taking on more than I can handle re the comic version of Wuthering Heights. *sigh*
I've got a story about a cave man that needs developing/illustrating, if you fancy having a stab at it...
Not sure if this the right thread but....
I'm building up a little collection of short stories (some of which are leaning towards being scripts) but aside from one or two very useful friends, I don't really have anyone reading them.
Having been welcomed here with open arms and only occasional criticism about being a notman, I thought I could throw myself on the mercy of the board and see if anyone would like to have a read from time to time.
I won't inundate (I'm not that productive) but it would be great to have some constructive criticism or downright slagging every now and then.
PM if you'd like to have a read. Am happy to do the same for other writers :-)
Dirk Manning's column at Newsarama detailing his writing career which is jammed pack full of tips - it is still rolling and up to #52 but don't be daunted start at #1 and read one a week ;) :
www.newsarama.com/topic/Write%20or%20Wrong
A piece from Martin Conaghan about the basics, includes:
QuoteLastly, realise that you are shit – you just don't know it yet. Everyone believes they can write until they realise they can't, and then they do something about it. If you don't do something about it, you will never improve.
When you've mastered the basics, the only other little gem of advice I've ever been given in my writing career so far is this:
"Omit needless words".
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/05/06/pond-life-by-martin-conaghan-3-put-it-on-the-page/
QuotePlot seems really difficult
Indeed! Too many people confuse having a great idea for a story with havng a plot.
I used to not be a fan of plotting and preferred to make stuff up as I went along- and sometimes I still do.
But when writing something long- like Corvus for example- I've found myself going back again and again to the plot and chapter breakdowns I'd written, because there are invairably things there that I'd forgotten I'd even thought of.
But you need to be aware that even if you do have it plotted, it is not set in stone, sometimes the tale can take on a life of its own as you write.
Plot is murder.
I've had five or six scripts that I thought were really good rejected on the basis that while they had a solid idea, there was no plot. I found that galling, but I have to admit that it is true. I used to have an idea and then write it but, since Christmas, have really tried not to do that and instead to have some kind of story.
The result is that I've written an awful lot less. I am pleased with what I've done because I have identified as a flaw in my writing and have actively tried to address it. I've had an idea about a computer or gun or time machine or magic hat, but then thought "so what does someone do with that computer/ gun/ time machine/ magic hat" before writing. I also now have a notebook full of ideas (the "tramp bookseller" and "wolf at window" being ideas I can, frustratingly, really visualise but I don't know their stories - their plot - just yet).
This may be wankery on my part. I hope this makes my stuff better, but it might not. And the killer is, you still need to have a good idea and a good plot. It could be one step forward (knowing what I need to do) but one back (my ideas are pants).
So far, only Tharg and Bolt-01 have seen scripts I've produced using this new approach and neither has come back to me yet. But, here's hoping - and if I do get feedback, then that'll go into the mix until something, eventually, comes out properly.
Hi All,
I'm a newbie here on the boards, but have managed to loose about two hours nosing around. Hell of a resource on writing right here in this thread. I'm a writer and have been reading 2000ad for donkey's years off and on - more 'on' lately than off!
I'm absolutely obsessed with stories and storytelling and spend an absurd amount of time trying to figure out how the damned things work, and why. Hope you don't mind if I spit out a few of my half formed thoughts on the topic hear.
To whit...
One of the things I find helpful when I'm stuck with a story is to forget about plot and structure and focus on my main character. Whenever I get lost or confused and don't know what the hell is supposed to happen next, I come back to my main character 'cause their the one driving the story along, and ask myself a couple of simple questions;
1. What the hell does this guy want?
2. What the hell does he actually need?
If I can't answer both those questions I know I haven't cracked the story yet, 'cause story flows from internal character conflict, defined as an external stated 'want' that conflicts with a subconscious hidden 'need'.
For example, in Beetlejuice (one of my favourite movies) Gina Davis and Alec Baldwin want to get the nasty New Yorkers out of their beloved home, but, ultimately, what they need is to fill their empty rambling home with a family, 'cause pretty as it is that big ol' house is dead. The story starts when they first consciously decide they want the nasty New Yorkers out, and they do something about it (perform an action that's motivated by their external want). It ends when they accept the family into their home, which fills that empty ol' house with life.
As long as the audience can identify with the overt 'want' and subconscious 'need' - and by that I mean can you empathize with it - the plot itself can be as outlandish and bizarre as you like, which is why Beetlejuice works.
Hope that's helpful.
Probably not.
Probably gibber!
All very true.
But getting them dead, wanting the new family out, hiring Beetlejuice, his antics, realising their mistake AND the denoument in five coherent pages - that's the hard bit.
Yeah...but it's also the really, really fun bit!
And, to be honest, I reckon you could boil it down into five pages. It wouldn't be anywhere near as much fun, but you could do it. I reckon the old 'three act structure things' is rubbish. I think every story has five key movements and as long as you've got those nailed, it'll compress.
I might have a bash at doing that, squeezing Beetlejuice into five pages I mean, could be a useful exercise.
Probably fall flat on my arse and prove you right!
I've finally come up with what I think is a good idea for a strip (been dealing with some pretty hardcore writers block for a while). Anyway, I'm in the process of writing the script but I was wondering what the best way you guys have found of finding an artist? Unfortunately, I am limited to stick men so doing the art myself is out.
You ask some artists. THERE'S QUITE A FEW HERE. I think I saw one only yesterday.
Ah, the obvious answers are always the best ;)
I just figured as I am new around here that I would be better off finding someone to draw my first script, show it to folks and see if they would be interested in helping me with something in the future. Don't like to impose...
No no no no no problem at all. Hows about we start slow and you give us a general idea of the kind of script it is. I, for example, draw only very silly things (http://metal-truncator.deviantart.com/art/Crabcake-1-Page-2-154956584).
Quote from: chilipenguin on 12 May, 2010, 11:38:20 PM
I've finally come up with what I think is a good idea for a strip (been dealing with some pretty hardcore writers block for a while). Anyway, I'm in the process of writing the script but I was wondering what the best way you guys have found of finding an artist? Unfortunately, I am limited to stick men so doing the art myself is out.
What kind of script is it? A future shock type tale? Fan fic?
Send it to us at Futurequake and we'll let you know what we think- and if it's good enough, we'll even find you an artist...
...or at the very least give you a heap of constructive criticism to apply to your next script!
Quote from: locustsofdeath! on 13 May, 2010, 09:57:05 AM
...or at the very least give you a heap of constructive criticism to apply to your next script!
That too.
Essentially, it is an origin script. I think when it's finished it will be five pages. I'm not sure where it would be suitable. I don't think it stands on its own enough to be acceptable for Future Shocks. It's about a child who discovers he has incredibly destructive powers. In this origin story, it is the first time they manifest themselves.
I just reread my last post and realised that it doesn't really give anything away at all. I'm pretty happy with my first page at the moment, so I'll post that here. (If that's a problem, or if this the wrong thread for that, let me know and I'll remove it). Anyway, here is the first page of The Apocalypse Child (apologies for the formatting, the original is done in Final Draft and is fully formatted):
PAGE 1 PANEL 1
Long horizontal panel. Establishing frame. We are in a typical suburb of a small town. Nice, detached houses line the street. Average to expensive looking cars sit on the road, shaded by leafy green trees. In the distance, sitting in the middle of the tarmac, is a silhouetted figure. In the next frame we will see that this is Adam Jones, our protagonist.
ADAM CAPTION
Childhood is a funny thing.
ADAM CAPTION (CONT'D)
The things we remember most about it are usually the most terrible.
ADAM CAPTION (CONT'D)
Sadness. Anger. Pain...
PAGE 1 PANEL 2
Long horizontal panel. Now we see Adam; a 10 year old boy with bright blonde hair and blue eyes. He is sitting in the middle of the road, clutching his leg. He is bleeding from a gash on his knee.
ADAM
Muuummmyyy!!!!!!
THE NEXT THREE PANELS SHOULD RUN ALONGSIDE EACH OTHER, SHOWING THE DEGRADATION OF THE SURROUNDING TREES AND CARS.
PAGE 1 PANEL 3
We are still close in on Adam. He is crying with pain, looking around for his mother. Behind him is a blue car and above that is a healthy green tree. A squirrel has run into the frame. Adam is crying.
ADAM
<sniff> Mummy?
PAGE 1 PANEL 4
The same scene but with the destruction becoming apparent. The tree is starting to die; its leaves are falling off and branches are beginning to gnarl. The car is beginning to rust from blue to brown. The squirrel has died.
ADAM CAPTION
Those moments crystallize in our subconscious. They shape our identity.
PAGE 1 PANEL 5
The same scene once again, but this time the tree is completely dead, the car rusted beyond repair. The dead squirrel has burst into flames. Adam is still crying but now out of shock more than pain.
ADAM CAPTION
Those moments are the making of us.
That's a good opening page.
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 13 May, 2010, 02:51:08 PM
That's a good opening page.
Agreed, you've got some strong imagery going on there, really easy for an artist to know what it is you want. Can't wait to see more!
Cheers for the responses guys. I've got the bulk of the script done now. I just need to flesh out the dialogue and tweak some of the description. When it's done, which would be the best way of putting it up on the boards? Should it stay in here or should I start a new thread for it?
Quote from: chilipenguin on 13 May, 2010, 06:26:27 PM
Should it stay in here or should I start a new thread for it?
I'd recommend a new thread, TBH.
Cheers!
Jim
Easist thing would be to split the thread starting here (http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,25779.msg512681.html#msg512681), so everything stays together.
Will do. Not sure how to do it exactly but I'll give it a shot. :)
Quote from: chilipenguin on 13 May, 2010, 07:38:55 PM
Will do. Not sure how to do it exactly but I'll give it a shot. :)
Sorry I meant I'll split the thread if you want me to.
Some advice on writing, pretty basic stuff but well worth keeping in mind (especially about hitting the page turn):
www.bleedingcool.com/2010/05/20/pond-life-5-by-martin-conaghan/
There is, obviously, a range of detail you can add to your scripts from the sparse John Wagner style to Alan Moore's frightening detail, so I thought it'd be interesting to see an artist's view of working with a script, specifically for the upcoming Lovercraftian comic boo Neonomicon (and a contrast with Garth Ennis' scripting as a bonus):
QuoteBC: Now you're probably best known to our readers through for your work on Crossed. How does drawing from Alan Moore scripts differ from, say, Garth Ennis? What do each demand from you that's different?
JB: Garth's scripts read as fairly traditional comic scripts. He'll describe the acting, actions and elements of a panel that must be there and generally leaves the layouts and angles up to you except in instances where camera direction is being specifically dictated for effect. Alan's scripts take a totally different approach where each panel is being described as a finished picture. Elements are described by the location on the picture plane and even small details are described by their placement in the composition. Moore's method of controlling the picture plane allows him to work in additional layers of subtext or to control the story flow from panel to panel in ways other writers don't. You get a sense that every element is part of a greater design. But he also says in the script that he is just bombarding with details that you can choose to keep or toss as fits the story.
BC: Well, Alan's famous for long involved script descriptions that at the end say "but if you have a better way, do that instead".
www.bleedingcool.com/2010/06/07/jacen-burrow-on-alan-moores-neonomicon-puff-piece-interview-of-the-week/
Some of that scares the crap out of me - it might be necessary for some panels where each element is vital and has to be in the right place (I can imagine some of the Promethea scripts requiring that level of control) but writing a whole comic that way...? I do like the last bit though: I have spent 6 pages describing a panel but feel free to ignore it, ;) which is pretty much what Ian Gibson did (although Dave Gibbons drew everything, which pretty much got him the watchmen gig so... )
ISTR there was a panel description in Swimming in Blood which said something like: Murray is stirring his coffee with a pencil. The coffee is black, with two sugars.
Cheers!
Jim
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 10 June, 2010, 06:01:31 PM
ISTR there was a panel description in Swimming in Blood which said something like: Murray is stirring his coffee with a pencil. The coffee is black, with two sugars.
I like that.... It's those invisible details that create real texture, that give the artist the chance to get under the skin of the character. You've got a much better chance of capturing the character if you know that he's using a pencil not a spoon and that he takes sugar but not milk.
I think the whole process has to stay interesting and challenging for the artist as well as the reader. "Render me this" is just a bit too mechanical for my liking....
A good column with ideas on how writers can pimp their asses:
www.bleedingcool.com/2010/06/11/pond-life-by-martin-conaghan-8-done-for-soliciting/
The biggest question honestly answered by Neil Gaiman (and drawn by Bryan Talbot): "Where do you get your ideas from?":
www.bryan-talbot.com/honestanswer/
Kind of.
Ah that made me chuckle.
Quote from: Emperor on 09 July, 2010, 03:09:42 AM
The biggest question honestly answered by Neil Gaiman (and drawn by Bryan Talbot): "Where do you get your ideas from?":
www.bryan-talbot.com/honestanswer/
Kind of.
Yup, that's pretty much how it happens!
Stephen Donaldson says he got the idea for his 5-book gap series from looking at a hand dryer.
I'm working on something that came to me while reading the label on a 1 litre carton of Tesco Fresh Orange.
EDIT: Not that we're in any way comparable. The point was more to illustrate that ideas are little invisible imps that lurk in the air, jumping through your ear when you are distracted by something mundane. Like Thrill Suckers in reverse - they leap on and inject stuff into you; sometimes good, sometimes bad but always "WTF?"
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 09 July, 2010, 09:52:43 AM
Stephen Donaldson says he got the idea for his 5-book gap series from looking at a hand dryer.
I'm working on something that came to me while reading the label on a 1 litre carton of Tesco Fresh Orange.
EDIT: Not that we're in any way comparable. The point was more to illustrate that ideas are little invisible imps that lurk in the air, jumping through your ear when you are distracted by something mundane. Like Thrill Suckers in reverse - they leap on and inject stuff into you; sometimes good, sometimes bad but always "WTF?"
It's funny, but I rarely have a stroy pop into my head like this.
Turning Tiger did, I suppose, and I discuss this in the afterword to the book (can't tell you here because of spoilers).
But usually they're because someone has asked me to write something about something.
Like and editor asking for a book on Allan Pinkerton, or a sequel to TT, for example.
Pretty much it's an editor asking, 'Can you write something about..?' and the writer saying 'Yes!'
It's only
then that you worry about if you actually can do it or not...
Mark Evanier on deadlines for writers:
www.newsfromme.com/archives/2010_08_15.html#019381
Colleen Doran chips in from the artist's perspective:
http://adistantsoil.com/2010/08/19/swamped-so-lets-talk-about-deadlines/
The Engine, Warren Ellis' previous comics-based forums (he dos get bored easily), had a thread where writers posted a sample page of a script. The thread is long gone but I stumbled across this by accident which has a page by Ed Brubaker and one by Simon Spurrier which gives a nice contrast to their scripting styles:
http://owsler.vox.com/library/post/script-pages.html
Great thread. Very informative.
I discovered Dirk Manning's article a couple weeks ago and got hooked. The first one I read was about Short Stories and I had just finished reading Eisner's Comics and Sequential Storytelling where Mr. Eisner spoke about the benefits of reading short stories.
Btw... I once found a pretty good writing resource online years ago that had a sf/fantasy angle. I copied the whole website as html onto a floppy disk. Still have it but I haven't been able to view it because it's not formatted for my current computer.
The actual website has since disappeared.
Quote from: kossori on 26 August, 2010, 07:18:36 PMBtw... I once found a pretty good writing resource online years ago that had a sf/fantasy angle. I copied the whole website as html onto a floppy disk. Still have it but I haven't been able to view it because it's not formatted for my current computer.
The actual website has since disappeared.
If you have the link or name it might be possible to get it from one of the Internet archives/caches.
Quote from: Emperor on 26 August, 2010, 08:18:45 PM
If you have the link or name it might be possible to get it from one of the Internet archives/caches.
I may try that but my only clue is that it has the words "Writing Sci-Fi" scribbled on it. Think I found it online around ten years ago.
Worth a shot, though. I hadn't thought of the archives.
Upload the files in a zip. Someone will be able to open them.
The problem is that my computer won't read the floppy.
Says it's not formatted.
Some bits and bobs:
Alan Moore's 5 Tips for Would-Be Comics Writers
http://www.mememachinego.com/archives/001225.html
Dear Ryan from the primary Abnett clone:
http://theprimaryclone.blogspot.com/2010/02/dear-ryan.html
http://theprimaryclone.blogspot.com/2010/02/dear-ryan-part-two.html
http://theprimaryclone.blogspot.com/2010/02/dear-ryan-part-three.html
Want To Be A Freelancer? Just Punch Yourself In The Face, Instead
http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2010/09/07/want-to-be-a-freelancer-just-punch-yourself-in-the-face-instead/
Great thread and some really useful advice and links. :)
Heinlein's five rules of writing:
www.sfwriter.com/ow05.htm
Quote from: Emperor on 14 September, 2010, 02:24:18 PM
Heinlein's five rules of writing:
www.sfwriter.com/ow05.htm
Excellent piece.
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 14 September, 2010, 02:30:03 PM
Excellent piece.
Agreed. All absolutely true.
Reminds me -- I must start writing again. And trying to sell this fucking novel.
Cheers!
Jim
With thanks to Staz Johnson, from whose Facebook posting I have yoinked this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE
Some salutary advice for writers from Mr Harlan Ellison, my new hero...
Cheers!
Jim
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 15 September, 2010, 11:50:22 AM
With thanks to Staz Johnson, from whose Facebook posting I have yoinked this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE
Some salutary advice for writers from Mr Harlan Ellison, my new hero...
Cheers!
Jim
That is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen!
Genius.
That's inspired!
How I love Harlan Ellison. I do wonder how much he gets paid to take a piss - gissa job, I could do that.
I've now spent an hour watching Harlan Ellison clips on YouTube. The man's a star.
They clearly had no idea who he was as a quick skim of his Wikipedia page would show you don't mess with him (some say he is a litigious loon but really if you have spent a long time having the piss taken you'd either give up and die or come out fighting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlan_Ellison#Controversies
In the trailer for the documentary he owns up to mailing a dead gopher to a publishing house and breaking a movie execs pelvis (and he doesn't contest the statement by the person I assume is his wife, or it might be a daughter or sister, when she says he threw her out of the house naked once):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSH0G7Wr6kQ
He is great value, but you do have to pay for it ;)
Quote from: Emperor on 15 September, 2010, 04:43:36 PM
In the trailer for the documentary he owns up to mailing a dead gopher to a publishing house
...via the
slowest available postal tariff, if I remember the story correctly.
Cheers!
Jim
More on writing (and a nicely Dark Place intro):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mOWzfRGscw
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXpfjbLSR-M
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq_Oh9PzKpE
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 15 September, 2010, 05:31:39 PM
Quote from: Emperor on 15 September, 2010, 04:43:36 PM
In the trailer for the documentary he owns up to mailing a dead gopher to a publishing house
...via the slowest available postal tariff, if I remember the story correctly.
The only real surprise is it had any postage at all.
Writers - check your facts (worth reading the long comments section pointing out other examples):
www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/09/why-wikipedia-is-the-writers-f.html
My favourite is the helicopter on the Moon, which goes slightly beyond facts into basic science...
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 15 September, 2010, 05:31:39 PM
Quote from: Emperor on 15 September, 2010, 04:43:36 PM
In the trailer for the documentary he owns up to mailing a dead gopher to a publishing house
...via the slowest available postal tariff, if I remember the story correctly.
Cheers!
Jim
I wonder if he's a fan of Tony Lee..?
you post one turd... ::)
If I am writing a script (potentially a future shock) and it contains a character that could run for a series, do I keep the rights to them or do they go to the publisher?
i.e.If Tharg decides to print a story about my character, could I then (theoretically of course), take the continuing adventures to, Dark Horse or even Marvel?
I seem to remember there being some discussion about this over the CLiNT iconic character submissions...
Quote from: chilipenguin on 24 September, 2010, 12:39:40 PM
If I am writing a script (potentially a future shock) and it contains a character that could run for a series, do I keep the rights to them or do they go to the publisher?
i.e.If Tharg decides to print a story about my character, could I then (theoretically of course), take the continuing adventures to, Dark Horse or even Marvel?
I seem to remember there being some discussion about this over the CLiNT iconic character submissions...
2000AD is work-for-hire -- all rights go to Rebellion.
Cheers
Jim
So I would sign away all rights? Hmmmm. Is there a history of future shocks getting an extended run?
By the way, I am spitballing here, I don't think I've written the next Dredd. I'm just interested...
Quote from: chilipenguin on 24 September, 2010, 12:49:07 PM
So I would sign away all rights? Hmmmm. Is there a history of future shocks getting an extended run?
DR & Quinch, Indigo Prime (I think), Abelard Snazz... can't think of anything else off the top of my head.
Cheers!
Jim
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 24 September, 2010, 01:04:51 PM
Quote from: chilipenguin on 24 September, 2010, 12:49:07 PM
So I would sign away all rights? Hmmmm. Is there a history of future shocks getting an extended run?
DR & Quinch, Indigo Prime (I think), Abelard Snazz... can't think of anything else off the top of my head.
Alex Worley's upcoming Danforth and... Rose O'Rion? And yes IP first appeared in "A Change of Scenery" prog 490.
Jim is also right about the rights - some people have got creator-owned deals on some stories but I don't know how and you'd need to have been an established droid to even enter such discussions (I assume). Basically the Future Shock is work-for-hire and you wouldn't own the rights but this shouldn't let it stop you as it may be more important getting the work out there. If Tharg doesn't want to continue it into a series (as he has before) then it may be you could talk to him about getting the rights back or you could... file the serial numbers off it and try a similar concept elsewhere. I can't think of an example of that happening, the closest might be Scarlet Traces but the story had already been started in a webcomic form so they already owned the rights to it when it arrived at the House of Tharg.
Cheers for all the info guys. Like I say, I don't think I've got the next Dredd or Johnny Alpha, but I think the character I've come up with has a shot at several stories. I don't want that to get cut short in the ridiculously unlikely event that Tharg decides to print it.
Further to my previous post, I've written a first draft of a 5 page script. The more I've think about it, the less likely I think it would be suitable as a future shock but, if I do end up submitting it, I don't want to breach any rules by posting it on the forum (not sure if that's a rule or not). So, I was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to have a look and let me know their thoughts? If it's not a problem to post it here, could someone let me know and I'll do that instead.
I've just been catching up on the last few pages of this thread with great interest. For me, writing is thumbnailing. I hack great swaths of words out when I see the pictures. Certain things just become redundant. I don't mind an occasional paragraph of terse, hard-boiled style prose in a story, but panel after panel of heavy captions and dialog gets really tiresome.
I'm pretty much of a traditionalist when it comes to pace and structure, but believe in completely surprising the reader when it comes to actual content. The one thing I can say for comics is you don't want them getting bored, as it's such a static medium to begin with.
I recommend the DC Guide by Denny O'Neil. He talks a lot about what's specific to comics as a medium. He is talking a lot about the super hero genre, which is ridiculously simplistic. But that actually helps to illustrate the theories and techniques quickly.
I have the audiobook version of Story by Robert McKee, and recommend it. I don't agree with everything he says, and some of his own writing samples are unintentionally funny. But that being said, he draws from good sources, and has the right emphasis on the craft-- pace, structure, genre, etc. It's also nice to listen to while I'm drawing or putzing around on the computer.
http://www.personalitypage.com/high-level.html
-Here's a link to the 16 personality types. It was originally a Carl Jung idea, but has since been revised into a career placement test. I read Scott McCloud talking about using it for writing, and have pretty much picked it up myself. It keeps characters both different from each other and consistent in their behavior. To me, it's much more important than their history-- though I do a little of that, too.
Eric Canete has unloaded some of his frustrations about a script, which highlight a few fundamental scripting cock-ups, read it and weep (and also keep in mind that artists
can travel through time):
QuoteHey writer: Put 'CROWD SCENE' 1more f*ckin' time in this script, Im gonna time travel, kick your dad in the balls & ensure you wont be born
Also 'writer': Help me help you. Have a clear concept of the space, instead of having things conveniently pop up to service plot points. Thx
One more thing 'writer': You can write a guy throwing a punch? You CANNOT have him saying extended soliloquy in that punch, yeah? Ok, thanks
"Page 24, 10 panels. Panel 1: Wide panel- IMPRESSIVE shot of crowded Piccadilly Circus.." Its 10 panels, sir. Im an illustrator, not Jesus H
www.bleedingcool.com/2010/10/13/wednesday-comics-briefing-its-like-piccadilly-circus-round-here/
So, um, what does a writer, er, write if they want a crowd scene?
Is it just the repetition of words which gets his goat? Or is it irritation that they have to draw so many people so often? (Granted, there shouldn't be that many crowd scenes in one script, and should they go on more than a panel, some of those should be close in on a couple of characters so you wouldn't have to redraw lots of folk.)
Or is he saying he wants more detail? I.e.
"Wide panel. Establishing scene, a market place. Two men fight in the centre. Five men stand by the market stall watching. Thirty others stand close together around the two men. Two at the back, right, are chatting. One at the front, middle of the crowd is scratching his bum.... ", etc.
Actually that's a bad example as I couldn't be arsed describing what each of the thirty people was doing because artists don't like you doing that either! They want more creative input than just drawing exactly what you write and rightly so! It seems to me sparsity would be better so:
"Wide panel. Establishing scene, a market place. A crowd gather around as two men fight."
...would likely be the preference, surely? (Actually for an establishing scene a bit more detail would be acceptable, but, I'm sure you get my point.)
Apologies if I'm being dumb about something obvious. It's just, I'm in the early stages of writing so it's best not to make mistakes now rather than in retrospect. (i.e. After I've pissed a few artists off.)
Not that I plan on writing lots of crowd scenes. Heh.
And I'd probably put the bum scratching guy at the side... ;)
Quote from: Mardroid on 13 October, 2010, 08:39:25 PM
So, um, what does a writer, er, write if they want a crowd scene?
Is it just the repetition of words which gets his goat? Or is it irritation that they have to draw so many people so often? (Granted, there shouldn't be that many crowd scenes in one script, and should they go on more than a panel, some of those should be close in on a couple of characters so you wouldn't have to redraw lots of folk.)
I think the issue artist have with crowd scenes (battles and vast army's or teams that seem to get squeezed into every frame just so the audience doesn't forget the comic has 8 stars) is it's easy to write the words 'the small trickle of protesters filter from a side road into a vast march. It is now obvious to the reader that this is not a fringe movement but a massive outpouring of emotion and anger flooding across the whole city' and then 2 pages later 'as the protesters turned the corner they are face with the disheartening sight of Judge Dredd standing in front of ten thousand riot suited Judges .' but it takes a lot longer to draw. Fun as it may be to have an epic reveal every 3 pages it's a pain in the ass to draw.
We could always help the artist by making it easy to use the copy/paste functions:
"A hundred thousand identical clones, all dressed in the same overalls, march in-step towards their goal*."
* An incandescent orb of pure sleep. (Well, you've still got to give your artist some challenges) :lol:
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 14 October, 2010, 12:10:37 PM
We could always help the artist by making it easy to use the copy/paste functions:
"A hundred thousand identical clones, all dressed in the same overalls, march in-step towards their goal*."
* An incandescent orb of pure sleep. (Well, you've still got to give your artist some challenges) :lol:
A few years ago when faced with drawing several ranks of robots that's exactly what I did (I like to think the orb of pure sleep is implied)
(http://data2.blog.de/media/262/878262_10a029988e_l.jpg)
Quote from: Steven Denton on 14 October, 2010, 11:38:34 AM
Quote from: Mardroid on 13 October, 2010, 08:39:25 PM
So, um, what does a writer, er, write if they want a crowd scene?
Is it just the repetition of words which gets his goat? Or is it irritation that they have to draw so many people so often? (Granted, there shouldn't be that many crowd scenes in one script, and should they go on more than a panel, some of those should be close in on a couple of characters so you wouldn't have to redraw lots of folk.)
I think the issue artist have with crowd scenes (battles and vast army's or teams that seem to get squeezed into every frame just so the audience doesn't forget the comic has 8 stars) is it's easy to write the words 'the small trickle of protesters filter from a side road into a vast march. It is now obvious to the reader that this is not a fringe movement but a massive outpouring of emotion and anger flooding across the whole city' and then 2 pages later 'as the protesters turned the corner they are face with the disheartening sight of Judge Dredd standing in front of ten thousand riot suited Judges .' but it takes a lot longer to draw. Fun as it may be to have an epic reveal every 3 pages it's a pain in the ass to draw.
Very true!
And for that reason, I would like to apologies publicly to KevLev for the opening scenes in Corvus. And that other bit a few chapters later. And the bit at the end...
Geof Darrow has made a name for himself doing insanely detailed crowd scenes loosely strung together by a slight story (I'm thinking mostly of hard boiled) and I'm pretty sure Ron Smith was never that fussed about packing out his strips with impressively large crowds but Mick McMahon and Brian Bolland however quit Dredd ostensibly over the huge crowds in block-mania.
What can we learn from this?
Don't give a crowd heavy story to an artist who hates drawing crowds and if you are going to have horses in your strip make sure your artist can draw horses!
Good Who art, Steven. Loving that.
You must also make sure your artist can draw stuff like primordial evil and inverted spheres of negative space.
Thanks :) I drew a 4 page story a few years ago to practice capturing an actor's likeness for a strip. I'll tell you this give me primordial evil and inverted spheres of negative space over making a drawing look like a real person any day!
Liking the Who art. Daleks are another one that are asking to be copy and pasted, and I've seen them do it in DWM, so you're in good company.
I was always disappointed that Scrivener was only available for the Mac as I really wanted to get my hands on that cork board thing. Anyhoo, they're making a Windows version:
"Scrivener is an award-winning program for writers which has until now only been available for Mac OS X. Whereas the main tools of page layout programs and many word processors are predominantly focussed on the appearance of a document, Scrivener's tools are focussed on generating content. It is not intended to completely replace a dedicated word processor but is used for structuring and writing those difficult first drafts of long texts such as novels, scripts and theses."
http://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivenerforwindows/index.html
I'm going to give it a try...
Anyone have a link to where I can find the Mac version of Scrivener? I've just started my second novel, and after the first being mired in rewrite hell I'm interested to see if a program like this can make novel writing 'cleaner'.
Many thanks in advance.
Quote from: locustsofdeath! on 27 October, 2010, 01:47:39 PM
Anyone have a link to where I can find the Mac version of Scrivener?
From the same site that offers the Windows version:
www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.html
Good luck with the novel.
Thanks Emps - for some reason I just didn't see that link. Der.
Cheers!
From the Slef Made Hero blog. This is pretty useful.
http://news.selfmadehero.com/2010/10/guest-blogger-will-bingley-on-comic.html
Good stuff there, Rich. Thanks for that link.
I seem to always break that 30-words-per-panel rule. Damn.
Thanks for that Rich
Quote from: locustsofdeath! on 28 October, 2010, 12:55:38 PM
I seem to always break that 30-words-per-panel rule. Damn.
I think Alan Moore suggests 25 - he then breaks that on the watchmen panel there ;)
Point 1 can be stretched (as John suggests in the comments) and elements of cartooning will allow you to do actions like that. Sounds like I should post a comment over there.
Jason Aaron talks about pitching, which I'm interested in as I suspect I'm rubbish at this. Turn out he is rubbish at it he also asked some editors to... pitch in (geddit?). Plenty of good advice:
QuoteThe worst thing to see in a cold pitch is a full script. Or a pitch that involves a covert organization that fights monsters and/or fallen angels. That's easily the most common idea sent my way.
QuoteDon't leave editors guessing. Explain the beginning, middle and end.
QuoteI like story pitches to be about a page long. If a writer can't hook me with a single page pitch, then I'm going to move on. If I like what I see on that one page, I'll ask for more. From the start, I wanna know what the story is about, who the key players are and why the story is relevant. Big picture. If I'm not hooked by that first page, then chances are the comic isn't for me and the pitch needs work. I encourage writing short character bios too - it indicates that the writer has applied some effort exploring this proposed world, and it'll give me further insight into what the comic is ultimately about.
QuoteGive me a short and sweet logline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log_line) right up front. If the logline is more than two or three sentences, it sets a possibly unfair but unfortunately true tone for the rest of your pitch, which is that I'm not going to want to read it.
QuoteIn pitches, I tend to look for a very easy to digest idea at the core, something that affects me instantly. Many times pitches are dressed up in a lot of window dressing (extraneous characters or descriptions of long fight scenes) and I'm left not quite understanding what the story is actually "about."
QuoteA submission needs to grab me in the first few lines. A sentence that sums up the idea, or at least the mood and feel of the story, will certainly get my attention.
www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=29108
This might be a useful accompaniment to the above, as he is not so hot at pitches he talks about finding the right editor (although this might only be useful for the larger comics publishers - top 5 or 6 in the US presumably):
www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=28711
Quote from: Emperor on 29 October, 2010, 03:30:34 AM
QuoteThe worst thing to see in a cold pitch is a full script. Or a pitch that involves a covert organization that fights monsters and/or fallen angels. That's easily the most common idea sent my way.
Really? Sigh. I've had an idea running around in my head for quite a while which was something like that. More specifically it was about a group of people (each issue would start as a kind of anthology dealing with each in turn then come together a one strip) with special abilities who fight supernatural evil. I know that's been done before (Hellboy, BPRD, and certain 2000 AD strip which left on a bit of cliff-hanger..) but I was hoping the mixture of celtic -influenced mythology mixed in with the character stories would help. I.e. the ideas might be similar but I was hoping the sum would still provide something a bit different...
The 'covert organisation' or 'PI agency' provides a convenient base for funding/cases, etc.And of course a way of getting the character team together! Well, unless you plan on placing the characters on a hell mouth or 'thin place in space time' but that's been done before...
Maybe a bit of rethink is in order. I think I might still go ahead with it though, I've got the skeleton of a couple of story arc in my head and some characters I really like. It would be a shame if that went to waste. Even if it's just a web-series type thing.
This sort of thing disheartening though. I wonder anyone gets new stuff off the ground. Mind you they do, and guess what? It still tends to be reminiscent of something else... even when it's very good. It's the
combination of these ideas where the originality lies.
Yes, I suspect that every rule like this has an exception but if it gets nowhere with an editor at least you'll know why ;)
A little late to start now (for me anyway) but one for next year:
NanoGraphicMo - like NaNoWriMo (although I always seem to type NanoRemo, which isn't right ;) ) but you have a month to create a 48 page graphic novel:
http://nanographicmo.org
Here is one:
http://ofdarkmatter.wordpress.com/
Warren Ellis has revealed what he uses for writing, nothing major (apart from back-up, back-up, back-up) but I was amused by this, as it is exactly what I do:
QuoteI often write rough drafts in Notepad, and then copy the text over into OpenOffice, which forces me to rewrite and polish.
http://www.warrenellis.com/?p=11054
Tips on dialogue:
http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/2011/03/dialogue-wisdom.html
Jim Shooter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Shooter) is posting an excellent series of pieces about his history in comics and it includes the Marvel "secret":
QuoteTime after time, Mort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mort_Weisinger) tried to respond to the rising Marvel threat. He tried using odd panel shapes, as some Marvel artists did, to "make the page layout more exciting." He tried running bright colors in the panel gutters to make the pages gaudier and, in theory, more exciting. He tried imitating the wisecracking humor, both in the dialog and in the editor's notes, the extreme action, the gutsier characterization and every other superficially apparent quality of Marvel Comics. Nothing worked. The secret of Marvel's success remained a mystery to him.
...
It's interesting, come to think of it, that in all of my conversations with Mort Weisinger, with all of the speculating he did about the "secret" of Marvel Comics, that he never asked me, his "Marvel writer," what I thought it was. Mort was not the easygoing kind of guy to whom you might casually volunteer your opinion about anything. My end of the conversation was generally restricted to "yes, sir," and the like--but I wonder, if he had asked, and if I had answered, would it have made any difference?
Probably not.
http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/03/secret-marvelsmarvels-secret.html
But he doesn't say what it is!!
For that we have to wait for a following piece:
QuoteNote: Perhaps I should explain the secret. It really is no secret. The way to succeed as a storyteller hasn't changed since thousands of years before Homer, and very likely won't change for eons to come–tell a good story and tell it well. The "telling it well" part can be learned–it's a craft based on the principles of our language, the principles of the words and pictures interplay peculiar to comics and the principles of logic which are the foundations of western culture. The "telling a good story" part is tougher. Most people can be taught what a story is, but in order to make a good story one must have something to say. An idea. An insight. An observation on the human condition. Meaning. That's the hard part. Leaving the reader with something more than he started with. Stan and company left me–and millions of others–with quite a bit back in Marvel's glorious sixties.
http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/03/here-i-go-again.html
It is, in hindsight, fairly obvious but isn't perhaps at the front of everyone's minds when writing. Alan Moore really underlined this for me with his chapter on "the basic idea", the first one in Alan Moore's Writing for Comics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Moore%27s_Writing_for_Comics) in fact, this bit from pages 6 and 7 (all emphasis is his):
QuoteA good starting point would perhaps be the aspect that lies at the very heart of any creative process: the idea.
The idea is what the story is about, not the plot of the story or the unfolding of events within that story, but what the story is essentially about. as an example from my own work (not cause it's a particularly good example but because I can speak with more authority about it than I can about the work of other people) I would cite issue #40 of Swamp Thing, "The Curse." This story is about the difficulties endured by women in masculine societies using the common taboo of menstruation as the central motif. This is not the plot of the story - the plot concerned a young married woman moving into a new home built upon the site of an old Indian lodge and finding herself possessed by the dominating spirit that still resided there, turning her into a form of werewolf. I hope the distinction here is clear between idea and plot, because it's an important one and one ignored by too many writers.
...
Naturally, the idea needn't always be a deep, meaningful and significant one. There are lots of different kids of ideas, ranging from the "What if...?" ideas that lie behind most science-fiction writing to the idea of everyday life as an object of worth and fascination, as seen in the work of Harvey Pekar and Eddie Campbell. "What if..." ideas are the basis of most short science-fiction stories of the "future shock" variety, examples from my own work being short five-page items like "The Reversible Man" (What if people perceived time as running the opposite way?), "A Place on the Sun" (What if it were possible for human beings to live on the sun?), or "Grawks Bearing Gifts" (What if a group of coarse and vulgar aliens did to our society what our society did to the Red Indians and other aboriginal tribes?). The nature of the idea isn't really important, what is important is simply that there is an idea in there somewhere. It can be silly and frivolous, perhaps just a single gag idea, or it can be complex and profound. The only thing that the idea should definitely be is interesting on some level or another
If there is a sub-text (or even a sub-sub-text) that isn't obvious I now try and spell it out in the script, just so the artist knows to keep an eye out for it.
So,
What's the Vampire Vixen subtext?
EDIT: Clearly, a commentary on the emasculation of males in modern society by highlighting the imagined fear created by the prominent placing of strong women in a predominently male environment (war) coupled with the undead motif to empasise the underlying fear of redundancy felt by the contemporary male.
And not "hur hur, foxy dead chicks."
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 26 March, 2011, 08:22:57 PM
"hur hur, foxy dead chicks."
By Jove! I think he's got it!
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 26 March, 2011, 08:22:57 PM
So,
What's the Vampire Vixen subtext?
EDIT: Clearly, a commentary on the emasculation of males in modern society by highlighting the imagined fear created by the prominent placing of strong women in a predominently male environment (war) coupled with the undead motif to empasise the underlying fear of redundancy felt by the contemporary male.
And not "hur hur, foxy dead chicks."
As Sir Alan of Moore says, there needn't be a clever and profound idea behind it (I usually only bother pointing out that kind of subtext when it crops up). It is closer to a "What if" idea, in WWII an alleged layer of occult combat below the more conventional warfare (I allude to the attempt to summon the kind of Cone of Power that saw off the Spanish Armada, or so some claim, in the first episode), so we are pushing that one-step further. It is also an updating and reworking of nazisploitation ideas, but I'm also hoping it will be one man's journey to realise not everything is quite so black and white - although God knows if it'll work on all those levels. Plus there are foxy dead chicks in it.
Glad that's been cleared up.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 26 March, 2011, 09:30:39 PM
Glad that's been cleared up.
Plus, it is all Alex's fault. ;)
Re Harlan Ellison - Did you know 2 of his stories for TV (Twilight Zone or Outer Limits) were used without credit by James Cameron to make The Terminator?...Ellison won in court, now always to be credited!
Quote from: OPIPOP on 10 April, 2011, 09:18:07 PM
Re Harlan Ellison - Did you know 2 of his stories for TV (Twilight Zone or Outer Limits) were used without credit by James Cameron to make The Terminator?...Ellison won in court, now always to be credited!
All you need to know right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwyyJ3D3g1E.
Nice link, thanks.
Quote from: Emperor on 26 March, 2011, 07:37:32 PM
Jim Shooter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Shooter) is posting an excellent series of pieces about his history in comics and it includes the Marvel "secret":
Further to this Jim Shooter has recently been posting transcripts from a lecture series he gave back in 1994 about storytelling. Its really interesting and he presents points I've read before in a really clear and interesting way. I'm enjoying it I have to say.
http://www.jimshooter.com/ (http://www.jimshooter.com/)
Via DTT:
QuoteLee Robson and Matthew Badham alerted me to this last month but it got buried in my in-tray. Writer-To-Watch-Out-For Dan Hill has managed to recompile a huge collection of articles and links from professional comic writers about the various aspects of the creative process that originally appeared on the now defunct Warren Ellis forum, The Engine.
The articles cover pretty much everything you could ever want to know about the process of writing comics, from moulding the initial idea all the way through to pitching it, and all of them are written by pros from across the industry, including Chuck Dixon, Matt Fraction, Gail Simone, Warren Ellis, Mark Waid, Kurt Busiek and a shed load more.
You can find the page at this link: http://dan-hill.org/services (http://dan-hill.org/services), but here's a small selection of what he's unearthed...
http://downthetubescomics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/webfinds-writing-comics-resource.html
Looks like plenty of reading ahead....
Yeah, I saw this earlier. What a great post - I need to message Dan Hill a thank you.