To no one's surprise.
[spoiler]Billy Dee Williams[/spoiler] Reprising Role as [spoiler]Lando Calrissian[/spoiler]
Link (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-billy-dee-williams-returning-as-lando-calrissian-xi-1125818)
I bet he dies.
Excellent news! I was concerned there weren't any characters from the OT left to destroy, but I didn't give JJ enough credit.
Joking aside, this could actually go either way: on one hand he's an older male, and thus has to go under the bus, but on the other hand he's non-Caucasian, and thus must be elevated above the inferior white characters. Finally the Sequels have introduced a wild card!
I wouldn't be surprised if he survived. While he has a fairly major role in tESB and ROTJ, he is still mainly a supporting character outside of the triumvirate of Luke, Han and Leia.
That being said I'd be equally unsurprised if he is killed, but I'd rather they'd stop doing that
If he does cop it, it'll probably be in a heroic self-sacrificing manner to appease those elements of the fan base who think character arcs must always include explosions.
If I had to guess, he'll either be bummed to death by a droid with a strap-on - and even the haters will say "that's typical Lando" - or - because he became a respected community leader in his middle age - I suspect Lando will be a proxy for the Leia-shaped hole in Ep IX, which means he's basically Bail Organa MK2 and will most likely die off-camera when the planet he's currently occupying is shot by yet another Death Star.
Personal head canon for Lando- He's an older gent, so has taken a back role in the 'businesses' he runs, leaving everything to an army of supremely attractive ladies- who are all his daughters. He spends his days trying to finance his alimony payments...
This film is writing itself!
I hope the Last Jedi Remake fellas are doing as well as us.
All I have to say is......ugh. Please god, can they not just leave the old guys alone.
If Lando somehow resurrects Han and Luke and then they all go on a lovely holiday with Chewie in the Falcon, then I'm in. If that doesn't happen, I'm not going to see it.
Luke's pretty much bound to be in it anyway isn't he? You can't keep a good force ghost down.
I imagine him shacked-up with Maz Kanata, then immediately wish I hadn't.
Quote from: James Stacey on 10 July, 2018, 04:30:39 PM
Luke's pretty much bound to be in it anyway isn't he? You can't keep a good force ghost down.
Unknown at this point......we need some confirmation from Hamill, who has only previously said that he wasn't in it.
Quote from: SIP on 10 July, 2018, 07:15:20 PM
Quote from: James Stacey on 10 July, 2018, 04:30:39 PM
Luke's pretty much bound to be in it anyway isn't he? You can't keep a good force ghost down.
Unknown at this point......we need some confirmation from Hamill, who has only previously said that he wasn't in it.
I don't think he ever said he wasn't in it; only that he felt he's emotionally moving on after Carrie Fisher died, but as usual he's playing coy as he always does. I think it's a forgone conclusion he'll be in it. He tweeted a still of a countdown clock to Episode IX (https://twitter.com/HamillHimself/status/1014952913410506752) the other day.
It's unlikely that Lucasfilm didn't have the option to extend Hamill's contract to at least Episode IX written into whatever he signed going in to The Force Awakens, and now Carrie Fisher has left us, who else are they going to put onscreen to appease the old-school Star Wars fans they apparently hate so much? As unquestionably awesome as he is, Lando is not quite on the same level as the core trio in terms of box office draw, and in terms of storyline, who exactly is Rey supposed to learn Jedi-ing from if not Skywalker's Force ghost?
Quote from: Professor Bear on 10 July, 2018, 09:37:45 PM
...now Carrie Fisher has left us, who else are they going to put onscreen to appease the old-school Star Wars fans they apparently hate so much?
Since it's all the rage these days at sister silo Marvel: a scene or scenes with de-aged
Han and Luke (and maybe Lando) in the years between ROTJ and TFA.
As flashbacks are baked into this set of films from the start, I'm surprised we didn't all ready get it in either Episode VII or VIII just to give the old fans what they missed in the 30 year void. A Pavlovian blowjob like that would bring the abstainers back for IX.
Well, I am one of those abstainers....bring on the pavlovian bj....... .this will be the first star wars film ever released that I do not intend to see at the cinema. Oddly, I am excited (maybe "curious" would be more accurate) to see the eventual trailer, as I am really wondering how they intend to entice the disillusioned back in.
Truthfully, i think that only some hint of addressing the direction that they took Luke in would cut it. I know some enjoyed that choice, but the reality is that it was that choice of character "development" that really kicked up all of the divisions in the fan base.......and still they rage on!
It'll be a really interesting trailer. I think there is a lot riding on it for Disney, what with theme park openings, conventions and TV shows in the works......
I bet you go see it at the cinema!
Well DUH - if he doesn't go and see it at the cinema, how will he know he was right to not go see it at the cinema?
I would love to believe that Disney has done a detailed and comprehensive review of the last 6 months of happenings in the greater Star wars community, that they have been able to navigate through the horrible quagmire of the ranting and offensive vocal minority and pick up on some of the concerns of the fans.
I live in hope (just like Luke Skywalker used to) that the trailer will promise something interesting and exciting, as it's increasingly difficult for me to care after that last film. I've caught star wars apathy.
But.....I enjoyed Solo a lot. So......
I don't think they'll change their strategy much, as a wave of hostility that creates sympathy for their product is an oddly happy accident for one of the world's most branding and marketing-savvy corporate entities. Disney engineered the visibility of most of that fanboy ranting as it was part of their marketing strategy from the off - there's even an interview with Rian Johnson back in the day saying he was making a Star Wars film that was deliberately polorising.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 11 July, 2018, 12:47:59 PM
Disney engineered the visibility of most of that fanboy ranting as it was part of their marketing strategy from the off - there's even an interview with Rian Johnson back in the day saying he was making a Star Wars film that was deliberately polorising.
Isn't that clip from
way back in the day (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i8eixMkCrs), at the time of
Brick (2005), before Disney assimilated him
into destroying their franchise. Although he has disputed this was the case for The Last Jedi. (https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/943930384852574208?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E943930384852574208&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fio9.gizmodo.com%2Fajax%2Finset%2Fiframe%3Fid%3Dtwitter-943930384852574208%26autosize%3D1)
It's something which is of course grist to the mill for some who consider The Last Jedi too 'radical' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yDAYsQOJsY) and naturally conflate one with the other.
The clip I'm thinking of was more recent than that, and was part of the Last Jedi promotional material specifically - though he words it very similarly.
'Star Wars: Episode IX' Announces Cast; Carrie Fisher to Be Featured (https://variety.com/2018/film/news/star-wars-episode-ix-cast-carrie-fisher-billy-dee-williams-1202888693/)
Billy Dee Williams is reprising his role as Lando Calrissian, and Carrie Fisher will be featured in the final installment in the trilogy using previously unreleased footage shot for "Star Wars: The Force Awakens."
Jesus. I was on the fence before, but now that's a hard pass.
Icky
Well at least it offucually confirmed Hamill on the cast list.
Including Leia at all is a bad idea. I understand that the intention of her being a big part of IX was always there, but tragedy intervened. Carrie delivered a fantastic couple of scenes at the end of TLJ, I watch them over and over, moving and uplifting: leave it at that. Unless it's a holo recording of some inspirational speech, Leia dies off screen between movies, move on.
Yeah, I'm not sure about that at all.
The press release says her bits will use unseen footage that was shot for the Force Awakens. I am intrigued to see how they will make that fit the narrative.
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 July, 2018, 10:51:45 AM
Including Leia at all is a bad idea. I understand that the intention of her being a big part of IX was always there, but tragedy intervened. Carrie delivered a fantastic couple of scenes at the end of TLJ, I watch them over and over, moving and uplifting: leave it at that. Unless it's a holo recording of some inspirational speech, Leia dies off screen between movies, move on.
That might be exactly what they're planning, who knows?
The agreement was made over a year ago year but Lucasfilm chose to deny it/changed their mind because of a script in flux?
APRIL 8, 2017
Shortly after her passing, Lucasfilm confirmed that they had "no plans to digitally recreate Carrie Fisher's performance as Princess or General Leia Organa" in Episode IX. Now Fisher's brother, Todd Fisher, confirmed that his sister's character will appear in the last trilogy film.
Todd told the New York Daily News that he, along with Carrie's daughter, Billie Lourd, gave Disney permission to use recent footage for the finale, and it is understood that no CGI would be used to recreate Leia.
"Both of us were like, 'Yes, how do you take her out of it?' And the answer is you don't," Fisher said. "She's as much a part of it as anything and I think her presence now is even more powerful than it was, like Obi Wan — when the saber cuts him down he becomes more powerful. I feel like that's what's happened with Carrie. I think the legacy should continue. I'm not the only part in that equation, but I think the people deserve to have her. She's owned by them."
https://deadline.com/2017/04/carrie-fisher-appearring-star-wars-episode-ix-brother-reveals-1202065614/
APRIL 15, 2017
"Sadly, Carrie will not be in [Episode] IX," Kennedy told ABC News from the Star Wars Celebration, where the trailer for Episode VIII: The Last Jedi debuted. "But we will see a lot of Carrie in VIII."
"She's as much a part of it as anything and I think her presence now is even more powerful than it was, like Obi Wan — when the saber cuts him down he becomes more powerful," Todd Fisher said. "I feel like that's what's happened with Carrie. I think the legacy should continue... Both of us were like, 'Yes, how do you take her out of it?' And the answer is you don't."
"[Todd Fisher] was probably confused because we finished everything in VIII, and Carrie is absolutely phenomenal in the movie. We're so happy that we were able to complete shooting in the summer," Kennedy said Friday. "Unfortunately, Carrie passed away. So by the time we were well under way with Episode IX, in our thoughts, we had not written the script, but we've regrouped and started over again in January."
Kennedy noted in a separate interview with Yahoo (via The Playlist) that Fisher's character played a "significant part" in the Episode IX outline, but after the Star Wars team and director Colin Trevorrow reconvened in January following Fisher's December death, they opted to take the story in a different direction. "Given the circumstances, we would not carry on with that," Kennedy said, adding of Todd Fisher's statement, "I have no idea why he said that."
https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/movie-news/carrie-fisher-wont-appear-in-star-wars-episode-ix-lucasfilm-says-124027/
JULY 28, 2018
Todd Fisher, the brother of the late Carrie Fisher, says he "couldn't be more personally thrilled and happy that our Carrie will reprise her role as Princess Leia in the new and final Star Wars Episode IX using previously unreleased footage of her shot for Star Wars: The Force Awakens.
Fisher issued a statement today in the wake of announcements that Carrie Fisher would appear in the upcoming film using previously filmed footage.
"As we, her family, as well as her extended family of fans around the world so believe, Carrie's 'Princess Leia is forever entrenched in the franchise and her indelible presence is fundamental to the film," Todd Fisher said. "J.J. Abrams understood Carrie's iconic role, and he has masterfully re-crafted this final entry to include this unused and very last footage of Carrie ever taken, without resorting to CGI or animatronics. Our family and her fans will look forward with great anticipation for this one! Her force will forever be with us!"
https://deadline.com/2018/07/star-wars-digital-appearance-by-late-carrie-fisher-gets-brothers-backing-1202435687/
There was a story about how they took Carrie Fisher's dog to the Last Jedi premiere, and when Carrie was onscreen talking the dog would become excited. This was pushed as a feelgood anecdote rather than heartbreaking and possibly cruel.
I'm sure it's only going to be a token addition, a short scene of her doing her general thing back at hq. I didn't get any emotional resonance from her last scenes in last jedi, so I'm good with her getting a final nod and send off in the last film of the trilogy.
If they were doing any cgi shenanigans, that would be more concerning.
Quote from: SIP on 29 July, 2018, 08:24:41 AM
I'm sure it's only going to be a token
A unit of exchange. A commodity (https://youtu.be/dD2UE0tJ66Y?t=7m11s).
Moral questions aside, (and since the family have OK'd it...) I'm not sure what you're actually going to get from unused footage from another film.
Some non dialogue shots?
Anything else is going to need some artificial manipulation to get something coherent, surely?
Mentioning animatronics seems a very odd thing to say too.
It's a puzzle alright. I think it would be a shame if the last we got of Leia was a passive character in the background, or some sort of manipulated performance from Carrie. I thought her little mini arc at the end of TLJ was great: defiance, despair, hope, wisdom and passing the baton. Seemed like as good a conclusion as we could hope for. Obviously Ben's redemption and their reconciliation was going to be Leia's story in IX, and there's no way that can happen now, so a lesser part just seems... sad. I struggle, misty-eyed, with CGI Leia in R1, but part of me loves that single word conclusion (to a problematic film) so much that I think it's worth it. Going forward, pretty sure further shenanigans would be going too far.
I would suggest it's just part of the "let's play it REALLY safe" mindset that surely must be at the front of their minds following what has happened since December.
I can only imagine it's a "look everyone, here is leia at resistance hq, all is fine and she is still working away in the background fighting the good fight against the evil first order....everything is absolutely fine....we didnt kill anyone!!.....now, back to the main characters".
Quote from: Steve Green on 29 July, 2018, 09:41:51 AM
Mentioning animatronics seems a very odd thing to say too.
It's Disney, and it's a Small World (https://youtu.be/7tbm4Au3dZ0?t=1m40s).
I assume
'without CGI' means they're not creating a digital mannequin, as they did in
Rogue One, but even just changing the background and removing Harrison Ford from shot is going to involve digital technology. I expect Carrie's guillotined head
* to float awkwardly above another actor's body, like Oliver Reed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCkZr5k6ZjA) in
Gladiator. Failing that, Ridley Scott can probably give them Chris Plummer's number.
Also, absolutely everything
TordelBack's just said.
* The Walt Disney Corporation having special expertise in the removal of heads and overoptimistic expectations regarding the reanimation of the deceased
I do not have much Hope for Episode IX as Disney believe plonking Star Wars on the title screen and adding a number to Episode it is all that is required. The first movie we all rushed to go and see and now where at the point where they have to focus on a proper story and keeping true to the original Star Wars movies to keep people interested. Hopefully I wrong and Episode IX can deliver but I see another rehash of one of the original stories.
Quote from: broodblik on 29 July, 2018, 10:57:58 AM
Disney believe plonking Star Wars on the title screen and adding a number to Episode it is all that is required.
I think you mean Lucasfilm - Disney may well believe that, but they don't make the movies. If no-one there thinks any effort is required, why do they keep changing directors, invest in reshoots, try new controversial directions, produce beautiful designs and dense webs of visual and thematic reference... Why do I, a fan of 40 years, feel so engaged by story and characters in a film series I never really wanted to see, when at the end of Episode III I felt cold and distanced from the whole thing? Am I a total schmuck, to fall for any old shite with Episode Whatever written on it? Or could it be they are delicious bring a product I'm really enjoying?
I'll say it again: I enjoyed TLJ more than any SW since RotJ (or at least since I completed Dark Forces the first time). People didn't, that's fine, but I really struggle to see how that movie was just plonking Star Wars on the screen. That said, I share fears that the negativity with which its attempts to do new things was met will indeed lead to something safe and repetitive, but in that case it'll be only us to blame.
Quote from: TordelBack on 29 July, 2018, 02:50:04 PM
they are Delicious Bring a product I'm really enjoying
There's the name for your new gourmet home delivery start-up.
Yes, I'm not sure what auto-correct was even auto-correcting there! "Delivering", maybe?
I'd echo TB. Plot issues/holes aside, I liked TLJ. I thought it was interesting and opened up new directions. I prefer ESB and SW, but that's probably all. (RO probably on levei pegging.)
Full disclosure, today it's:
TESB, ANH, RotJ, TLJ, (CW '03-05), TPM, (TCW '08-14)=TFA, (Rebels), Solo, RotS=R1, AotC, (Droids), CoC, (Ewoks), BfE, THS.
So Episode IX has it all to play for, really.
Interesting to consider where game storylines come in any list of canon SW media, as I probably enjoyed the Battlefront 2 story more than TLJ even if some of the dialogue was a bit duff - though we got see Han Solo in a beard so stupid it was a plot point, so there's that.
Don't get me wrong I enjoyed the new batch of SW movies and I will go and see Episode IX on the big screen.
I might be over critically of the movies since every fan believe he knows best and I am a fan.
My biggest issues were that TFA felt like a remake of ANH and TLJ felt in some sense very much not like a SW movie. I did not like the idea of General Huxley becoming the comic relieve. What is the purpose of the Resistance (rebirth of the Rebellion )and why do they exist ?
Resistance v First Order exists to reintroduce the multi-billion dollar Rebel Alliance v Empire IP to the big screen and toy shelves.
But if you mean in-universe, to make it clearer check out some of the deleted scenes on the TFA Blu-ray, or better yet, the surprisingly entertaining Leia novel Bloodline by Claudia Gray. But it's more or less all there in TFA and TLJ.
Essentially : post-Civil War treaty and disarmament, complacent New Republic refuses to recognise growing threat of Imperial remnant reorganised under charismatic force-sensitive Snoke into the First Order, increasing Industrial exploitation and enslavement of worlds in their ambit (Rose's story in TLJ), corruption of Luke's Jedi trainees (Luke's story in TLJ) , stealth militarisation and aggression against unaligned or border worlds. Discredited in the Senate, Leia, Ackbar and Co take matters into their own hands, form a Resistance movement pushing back against increasing FO outrages, and try to expose the truth of the situation. Snoke (rightly) accuses Resistance of breaking treaties, condemns Republic as supporting them (how much of this is true is debatable) and uses this as his casus belli for launching a first strike (destruction of Senate and Republic fleet in TFA). And there we are, just the Resistance opposing the new empire, and that now about 20 people...
Thanks for the info TordelBack.
Quote from: broodblik on 29 July, 2018, 05:25:14 PM
Thanks for the info TordelBack.
Any time Broodblik old bean; I'm in a monster grump at the moment, so any excuse to vomit forth irrelevant nonsense eases the pressure.
This is a large part of my problem with these new SW movies, if I'm honest. The number of times I've mentioned a plot hole, or something that seemed illogical or unclear, only to be told: well, if you watched the DVD extras or read this novel...
No. Just no. I'm not doing fucking homework so that a movie makes sense. I hadn't even seen bloody Star Wars when I saw ESB and it still made sense.
Quote from: TordelBack on 29 July, 2018, 05:53:27 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 29 July, 2018, 05:25:14 PM
Thanks for the info TordelBack.
Any time Broodblik old bean; I'm in a monster grump at the moment, so any excuse to vomit forth irrelevant nonsense eases the pressure.
Don't worry, I believe I am still reeling from the Lunar Eclipse we had here down south on Friday, I could howl at the moon, so I might be more cranky than usual. :D
But I must agree with Jim_Campbell, why must we read a novel to understand the movie? The novels should be used as back-stories not the main story.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 29 July, 2018, 07:22:48 PM
No. Just no. I'm not doing fucking homework so that a movie makes sense. I hadn't even seen bloody Star Wars when I saw ESB and it still made sense.
Well, as it happens I do agree entirely with you on that score, but all this stuff
is more-or-less in the films, the bits I mention just clarify/expand on it, and what
isn't there is in no way necessary to understand or follow the story.
The problem is, as I think we discussed before, that after 40+ years we now
expect to know all the back story, in a way we didn't back then. To drag out a well-worn example, the Emperor's name had only appeared in the preface to the Star Wars novelisation (and then in more obscure sources) until a Hasbro figure in (I think) 1998, and Vader being a Lord of the Sith is only actually mentioned on the first page of that same book. Nobody mentions "X-Wings" in the movies until near the end of TESB. Nobody names Bail Organa on screen until
Attack of the Clones in 2002.
But we've been swimming in a soup of SW multimedia, and thus think the films told us this stuff. Now when the new ones
also don't, we feel short-changed, because we
should know where Snoke and the First Order come from, and if the books/comics/games fill in this stuff, we complain. I accept that it's a somewhat different situation with sequels, when we can see the gaps between what we know at the end of RotJ and what we find at the start of TFA, rather than starting with a blank slate, but I still don't think there's anything missing in the new movies that the imagination can't adequately fill in just as well as it did in '77.
Caveat: There is one short scene of Leia talking by comm to Maisie Richardson Sellars' character at the New Republic Senate on Hosnian Prime that was cut from the film (included as an extra on the BluRay), and I think that was a massive mistake: it quickly sketches out the political situation, and it also situates the destruction we see later. Obviously everyone was scared of a Phantom Menace-ish backlash against anything resembling a senate scene, so again, we only have ourselves as whiny fans to blame.
All I want to know is what Dash Rendar is doing during all this.
Hah, I'd play another Shadows of the Empire if they bring back Dash Rendar!
Did he have a very shiny nose?
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 29 July, 2018, 10:46:22 PM
Did he have a very shiny nose?
No, but his beard is back in fashion!
Hang on....no....that was Kyle Katarn.....no hope for Dash.
Quote from: TordelBack on 29 July, 2018, 03:20:53 PM
Full disclosure, today it's:
TESB, ANH, RotJ, TLJ, (CW '03-05), TPM, (TCW '08-14)=TFA, (Rebels), Solo, RotS=R1, AotC, (Droids), CoC, (Ewoks), BfE, THS.
So Episode IX has it all to play for, really.
I have no idea what half those acronyms mean
It's the Tordelback (TBK) Index.
Quote from: Mister Pops on 30 July, 2018, 04:29:11 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 29 July, 2018, 03:20:53 PM
Full disclosure, today it's:
TESB, ANH, RotJ, TLJ, (CW '03-05), TPM, (TCW '08-14)=TFA, (Rebels), Solo, RotS=R1, AotC, (Droids), CoC, (Ewoks), BfE, THS.
So Episode IX has it all to play for, really.
I have no idea what half those acronyms mean
I'm not sure if it's a good thing for me to admit.....but I understand the whole list......though certainly not the order they are in. They seem to have got mixed up ;).
I was going to put TLJ in dead last place, but notice the inclusion of THS.....regardless, it's still a close thing for me. The survival of the OT cast in THS might just edge it ahead of TLJ. THS ("The Holiday Special") was, up until last year, the most dismal piece of Star wars. There are no super weapons in it though. And it does have an entirely original story... .it's almost entirely unwatchable, more than once.
No separate inclusion of TCW movie? Assuming you are just including it as part of the series (I know it was just some joined up and jazzed up episodes).
Star wars lists.....all good fun :)
It's cartoon Boba Fett (his first time seen in-universe and he's an actual character with agency), Life Day and grandpa Wookie porn, for THS to take its rightful place ahead of the Prequels.
Quote from: SIP on 30 July, 2018, 09:12:41 AM
No separate inclusion of TCW movie? Assuming you are just including it as part of the series (I know it was just some joined up and jazzed up episodes).
Correct. Although I note that it's still a separate purchase on DVD, which is a bit shitty (even if it does still clog the bins of shops everywhere)- an extra disc at the front of Season 1 would have been nice. If I were rating it separately, it'd have to be down near RotS, because outside of the two main battle scenes (Christophsis and the initial assault on the Monastery on Teth), it doesn't really stand the test of time - and compared to the existing first half-dozen episodes of Season 1, it's a bit rubbish: the Tatooine bits, Anakin hopping around on STAPs - I just find myself thinking what a pale lifeless imitation of the Tartakovsky series it is. Even the TCW episodes that act as prologues to Christophsis are better.
I've tried to see Joe Soap's point about the Boba Fett cartoon, but is surrounded by so very much soul-sapping dreck that I don't think I can even raise The Holiday Special to the level of Caravan of Courage.
The only reason that I rate the clone wars movie as a separate entity is that it did get an official cinema release.....so, as I saw that in the cinema....twice....so,I'd rank it.
It's inclusion of Ventress alone, possibly my favourite clone wars character, elevates it over some ofthe New Star Wars films (mainly as I was still feeling joy for all things star wars then).
The Holiday Special is almost entirely unwatchable, even I would struggle a little to choose between sitting through it ever again or sitting through last jedi ever again .
I never made it through THS, but I'd agree that TLJ ranks dead last for me even though I wouldn't describe it as the worst installment by any yardstick - it's just that even with objectively terrible entries like AotC I at least wanted to see more, but after TLJ I barely managed to go so see SOLO (and only went in the end because my dad wouldn't go to the cinema on his own to watch something).
Quote from: Professor Bear on 30 July, 2018, 01:09:59 PM
I never made it through THS, but I'd agree that TLJ ranks dead last for me even though I wouldn't describe it as the worst installment by any yardstick - it's just that even with objectively terrible entries like AotC I at least wanted to see more, but after TLJ I barely managed to go so see SOLO (and only went in the end because my dad wouldn't go to the cinema on his own to watch something).
Solo was the first time that I ever walked into a star wars movie with an attitude of complete apathy......I did really enjoy it thankfully. I don't have the same desire for episode 9.....but I'm waiting on the trailer. I just really want to see a crowd pleasing feel good adventure movie. They don't come any more generic and jam-packed with complete scene rehashing as TFA and TLJ, so I guess we're all in for even more of the same, just hopefully with a little more joy and a lot less "your momma" humour.
Quote from: SIP on 30 July, 2018, 12:49:40 PM
It's inclusion of Ventress alone, possibly my favourite clone wars character, elevates it over some ofthe New Star Wars films (mainly as I was still feeling joy for all things star wars then).
Hmm, you're right, Ventress is pretty great in it - I love her repartee with Kenobi. In the lead-in to the Nightsister stuff, the part where Dooku outright abandons her after her ships crashes in the hangar with the two lads is truly fantastic.
I would however argue that Rotta cancels out Ventress in the context of the film itself (Uncle Ziro Desilijic Tiure (aka Truman Capote the Hutt), on the other hand, I love, and think he should have had a longer run - to this day I regret the absence of a Ziro in any form in my collection of plastic tat. But then my last 3 3/4" scale Hutt of any kind was Jabba Glob back in '99. I do have two WotC 28mm Jabbas, each with their own shortcomings, and I often think about repainting one as Ziro).
I used to rank the TCW movie as its own thing(Episode 2.5) for exactly the same reasons, cinema release, but after long years of rewatching it with my
Clone Wars-obsessed son, I decided it was better to think of it as a feature-length pilot.
Along with RotS it's the only theatrical SW movie I only saw once in the cinema.
This thread left me behind ages ago. I still haven't seen the Holiday Special but I think I'd like to, just for research of course...
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 30 July, 2018, 05:11:26 PM
This thread left me behind ages ago. I still haven't seen the Holiday Special but I think I'd like to, just for research of course...
You
think that. You think it's
so bad it has to be at least amusing, a curiosity, a shared experience of nerdkind. We all
thought that. Then we watched it. You have a finite life, it's up to you to use it as you see fit. But on this, heed the warnings of your peers.
The ONLY bit worth watching, unless you have a serious Bea Arthur fetish, is this:
https://youtu.be/UC2Q6ANLXQ0 (https://youtu.be/UC2Q6ANLXQ0)
There, you're done. Spend the time saved reading a good book, or whittling scrimshaw,
anything else, basically.
Hmmm, but, you know, you're talking to a man who enjoyed Episodes I, II and III more than IV, V and VI...
However, if your advice still stands after learning the depths of my depravity I will take heed and forget it ever existed. Probably.
Quote from: Frank on 29 July, 2018, 10:43:03 AM
* The Walt Disney Corporation having special expertise in the removal of heads and overoptimistic expectations regarding the reanimation of the deceased
Reference to an urban myth (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/suspended-animation/) regarding Walt?
Quote from: Mister Pops on 30 July, 2018, 04:29:11 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 29 July, 2018, 03:20:53 PM
Full disclosure, today it's:
TESB, ANH, RotJ, TLJ, (CW '03-05), TPM, (TCW '08-14)=TFA, (Rebels), Solo, RotS=R1, AotC, (Droids), CoC, (Ewoks), BfE, THS.
So Episode IX has it all to play for, really.
I have no idea what half those acronyms mean
I got:
Empire Strikes Back
A New Hope
Return of the Jedi
The Last Jedi
Clone Wars TV series
The Phantom Menace
The other Clone Wars series
The Force Awakens
Rebels
Solo
Revenge of the Sith
Rogue One
Attack of the Clones
Droids cartoon
CoC?
Ewoks cartoon
BfE?
THS?
CoC = Caravan of Courage
BfE = Battle for Endor
THS = The Holiday Special
The first Star Wars 'spin-offs'.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 30 July, 2018, 06:24:54 PM
CoC = Caravan of Courage
BfE = Battle for Endor
THS = The Holiday Special
The first Star Wars spin-offs.
I worked out two of the other three further down the thread (couldn't look ahead, that would be cheating!) I have actually seen all of those mentioned, though can never remember the name of Battle for Endor.
What the hell, I'll throw in my star wars votes, though I'll leave out the ewok films as I don't really count them.
1. Return of the Jedi
2. Empire strikes back
3. New hope
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Clone wares cartoon (cgi)
5. Attack of the clones
6. Phantom Menace
7. Solo
8. The clone wars movie
9. Rogue One
10. Force awakens.....which would have been 1 higher, but last jedi robbed it of it of most of its good points.
11. The last jedi.
12. The dreaded holiday special ....it's almost unbearable.
Star Wars died for me with The Last Jedi. I'll probably watch Solo and any other movies on a rainy Sunday, if they happen to be on telly. But the magic is gone.
Quote from: SIP on 30 July, 2018, 09:19:11 PM
What the hell, I'll throw in my star wars votes, though I'll leave out the ewok films as I don't really count them.
1. Return of the Jedi
2. Empire strikes back
3. New hope
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Clone wares cartoon (cgi)
5. Attack of the clones
6. Phantom Menace
7. Solo
8. The clone wars movie
9. Rogue One
10. Force awakens.....which would have been 1 higher, but last jedi robbed it of it of most of its good points.
11. The last jedi.
12. The dreaded holiday special ....it's almost unbearable.
(theatrically chews cigar)
WELL WELL WELL if Mr "Rogue One wasn't as good as The Force Awakens" hasn't changed his tune just like we said he would.
Ha, yeah, maybe I should have also stated, I really really hate everything AFTER Number 8.
Rogue one is a complete miserable mess of a film......but Last Jedi just took everything interesting in Force awakens and just ruined it. So all I'm left with now is a film that needlessly kills Han solo. So, now that's ruined, Rogue One edges it for some of its half decent moments.
And I'm with Dr X, last jedi also killed my love. Genuinely didn't think I'd ever feel like that after my 40 years with star wars.
Not only is The Last Jedi killing the original cast, it's killing the fans!*
*only available on youtube.
Quote from: SIP on 30 July, 2018, 09:45:10 PMSo all I'm left with now is a film that needlessly kills Han solo.
How do you figure that? It's a critical character moment for Han, and for Ben. For Han, it's finally putting aside all of his scoundrel cynicism and cunning, and his later flight from of his responsibilities, and giving in to love for his son - and commitment to his wife. However wrong it goes, it's the concrete endpoint of his character arc. For Ben, it's the viewer-visible moment of complete submission to darkness that Anakin never really had (the younglings thing was such a ludicrous escalation from stopping bossy-boots Windu killing his substitute father, plus that kid's awful delivery...). That it didn't stick, that even that terrible sacrifice wasn't enough to give him the clarity and focus he needs to realise his power, that's just the icing on the cake.
I never wanted to see Han die, ever, and I wish we hadn't, but that scene, with the sun finally going out in the background, with Han slipping from the failing shaft of light into red shadow, touching Ben's cheek, Chewie losing it... goddamn, it was something.
Surely
none of that is lost or undermined by TLJ, no matter what your problems with the treatment of Luke's character, or the sidestepping of Rey and Snoke's backgrounds.
No, it's as you say TB, I didnt want to see Han die. It wasnt necessary. I have no desire to watch han get old, have a broken marriage and then be killed by his own child. How well (or not) that it was done was completely irrelevant to me, I just do not get any enjoyment from watching it.
Mark Hamill's acting and portrayal of "Luke" in Last Jedi was excellent. What he did, he did well. I just didn't enjoy a single second of it.
Not liking anything that they did with the legacy characters is exactly why I don't like new Star wars. They appear to be there to get this middle aged man to buy a ticket......but then they do this with them? I'm incapable of moving beyond this approach I guess......but why would I want to?
The Force awakens was generic, but it introduced some genuinely likeable characters, provided some excitement, murdered someone for the drama of it, and then ultimately gave me 2 years of hope that something amazing was coming.
The last jedi gave me crushing disappointment, bad humour, far too many tiring rug pulling moments, multiple scenes lifted from prior star wars films, and somehow managed to steal all of the charm from the characters introduced in TFA. It retrospectively makes that film worse. The other things that I struggle with are, Luke skywalker completely aside, the Finn storyline and the Po storyline in TLJ are just awful (IMO).....so I'm left with nothing to like.
And yes, TLJ completely spoils TFA. Aside from another stomping on an OT character, it renders the whole driving search for luke in TFA fairly meaningless, as in I couldn't care that they find luke as I don't like the luke that they find. Snoke was intersting, he isn't now, rey was interesting, she isn't now, Po is no longer likeable, Finn is no longer likeable, ugh. What is left in TFA that I could care less about? Maybe Kylo?
Anyway.......we are going over well trodden ground now. I'm never going to be convinced that it is any good, and it's events directly impact on most of the driving themes in TFA. So definitely file it all under "not for me".
Quote from: TordelBack on 30 July, 2018, 10:37:07 PMSurely none of that is lost or undermined by TLJ, no matter what your problems with the treatment of Luke's character, or the sidestepping of Rey and Snoke's backgrounds.
If you didn't buy into it in the first place, TB, you are correct in that nothing in TLJ takes away from it. I have mentioned in the past that I like the Han Solo
archetype, but I've never actually liked the Han Solo
character, so his death did little for me except making me guffaw when the eclipse happened because of the "as long as there's light there's hope!" setup that's pure on-the-nose Save The Cat.
Quote from: SIP on 30 July, 2018, 10:49:14 PMNot liking anything that they did with the legacy characters is exactly why I don't like new Star wars. They appear to be there to get this middle aged man to buy a ticket......but then they do this with them? I'm incapable of moving beyond this approach I guess......but why would I want to?
This is actually a time-honored tradition in comic books and tv sci-fi called "bussing" or "put on the bus", where older characters or actors from the genre (or even from previous iterations of a show) turn up to be chucked under the bus to put new characters over with audiences, which is why I'm surprised to see it embraced by so many creators in this day and age considering all it does is get a quick boost or PR for the bussing, and then the creators have to contend with fans who hate them forever for "ruining" their favorite characters. I don't know who or what a Boom Boom is, but there seems to be consensus on the
incel American comic book forums that Warren Ellis is a terrible writer for his work on him/her/it on NextWave, a comic that came out over a decade ago and was a big deal at the time, but you will notice they don't make anymore.
Bussing is a short-term thing, but in the long term tends to do more damage to a property, hence bussings tend to be retconned within a year or two*, which may give some context to those asking for Last Jedi to be retconned - this is what popular culture has taught them is the process for such things.
* unless the bussing is a gay retcon, which is irreversible and sacred.
I'm thinking that the retcon may actually begin with episode 9, when it turns out that Luke is NOT dead and we get a fight sequence with lightsabers....
Look out for the trailer next year.
Indeed, Bear. As I've rambled many times, the sequels should have been set 100 years after RotJ, and only Force Ghost Luke, and maybe Chewie and the Droids should have been present. But once they decided to only jump 30 years (because Disney wanted to use the characters they'd paid through the nose for), everyone had to be bussed (and all their good works undone) or the sequels would have to have been their stories - again. Which would have been daft: where did they have to go, a problem 40 years of novels failed to solve? Han and Luke's deaths were inevitable the moment Disney signed that big, big cheque.
I'm not sure about that, as though it might seem that way to the over-40s, Western culture is not quite as youth-obsessed as it often appears, otherwise they wouldn't still be casting Ford or the likes of Bruce Willis - the only reason Qui-Gon isn't churning out Taken sequels is because he put his foot down and said he wasn't going to make any more action films. People would have watched a theoretical Ford/Hamill/Fisher-centric Sequel Trilogy much as they would have gone on watching Shatner shuffle unconvincingly around the galaxy punching 8-titted catwomen if Paramount hadn't replaced him with the young and buff Patrick Stewart.
Why were their deaths inevitable? I don't understand that at all. Any writer worth their paycheck could easily work around this. There are a thousand different ways to include them or not include them as much as was needed in the films.
Han had apparently kept well out of the first order issue so far, I'm sure that he could have been used for a film in an entertaining way then sent back out into the galaxy. It only became inevitable that he would die when they wrote him into the corner that they did. Same with Luke. It's a sensationalist tactic cheaply employed, not some dire narrative requirement.
They could have used all of these characters in a fun and satisfying manner, whilst pushing the new characters to the fore. They just chose not to. To the films detriment.
I'm consistently baffled by the choices lucasfilm have made......some days they just appear intent on running their own property into the ground.
Again, with the caveat, " in my opinion".
I don't think they *had* to bus everyone at all, I would've very much liked to see Luke playing a bigger part in the new arc.
Quote from: TordelBack on 30 July, 2018, 11:16:54 PM
Indeed, Bear. As I've rambled many times, the sequels should have been set 100 years after RotJ, and only Force Ghost Luke, and maybe Chewie and the Droids should have been present.
It was always the ideal, TB, but I believe too many fervent fans would still complain Disney wasted the Sequels by not having show-up –the still living in real life– Han, Leia, Lando, and for them to be badasses like the EU promised.
Quote from: TordelBack on 30 July, 2018, 11:16:54 PMwhere did they have to go, a problem 40 years of novels failed to solve? Han and Luke's deaths were inevitable the moment Disney signed that big, big cheque.
The story idea of a difficult reclamation and putting the Skywalkers into the larger mythical context was the right one, and for me the inverting of it all doesn't lessen in anyway what came before, but it disappoints me they padded-out and avoided vital parts of the literal set-up by using props and tropes that are a little too familiar – compounded by not providing adequate context. The nostalgia decor is fun, but different designs and new situations would've served their cause, and the dynamic they put the original cast in, better.
Star Wars can still have space battles and hero quests without the old imperial technocracy – even though the ersatz Empire and the nod in the direction of a fascist youth, and the role/fate of kids in the legacy of the Rebellion's pyrrhic victory, is a very interesting one. It just could've done with some new clothes.
But for me the success in the Sequels comes down to the character writing and performances; apart from squeaky plotting, some dud lines and flat moments, the majority of the time it feels like they're selling it as best they can, and I hadn't seen the like of that in a Star Wars film for 30 years.
Quote from: SIP on 30 July, 2018, 11:33:04 PM
Any writer worth their paycheck could easily work around this. There are a thousand different ways to include them or not include them as much as was needed in the films.
I'm (obviously) not a writer, but as far as I can see the only other options that include the Big Three at all were a trilogy
about three septuagenarian heroes that apparently aren't permitted doubt, failure or moral weakness, one of whom can destroy planets with a raised eyebrow (BADASS LUKE, YAY!); or a trilogy where those same guys lurk about in the background (unchanged from 1983, bar wrinkles) as new characters try to save the galaxy, and everyone wonders why they don't just come centre-stage and defeat the baddies, which they either eventually do (again) or don't (what?!?).
Maybe those could have been written up into something fun. But I doubt it. Or at least I doubt that the fan "outrage" would have been any less.
Instead what we got was the application of the basic structural model for the Star Wars saga: an older generation of heroes help/inform the next generation to meet the current conflict, before passing on. It was the right call (other than not making the bloody things at all).
That's two comments above that allude to making the OT cast members "bad asses". Who wants that?
Han solo pretty much bumbled around the first three films, Luke was not infallible. Nobody wants super bad ass versions of characters that were never super bad asses. If anyone was made a complete bad ass, that wouldn't feel like the original characters either.
I don't think the majority of people who disliked Last Jedi wanted luke to be a bad ass. That is NOT where it went wrong.
Take Force Awakens.......if Kylo had been no relation to Han, and 90% of the rest of the story had played out the same, with han helping the resistance, and at the end he successfully blew up the thingamy without facing Kylo (robbing po of the boring trench run rehash), rey fights Kylo, all escape in the falcon, everyone parts ways. We have had mostly the same film and Han isn't dead. Find the "emotional" connection elsewhere in one of the other characters. In that version, I've had the fun of the OT character and Disney get their nostalgia hit.....why did they need to kill him?
Quote from: SIP on 31 July, 2018, 08:46:21 AM
Take Force Awakens.......if Kylo had been no relation to Han, and 90% of the rest of the story had played out the same, with han helping the resistance, and at the end he successfully blew up the thingamy without facing Kylo (robbing po of the boring trench run rehash), rey fights Kylo, all escape in the falcon, everyone parts ways. We have had mostly the same film, Han isn't dead. Find the "emotional" connection elsewhere in one of the other characters. In that version, I've had the fun of the OT character amd Disney get their nostalgia hit.....why did they need to kill him?
My understanding was that Harrison Ford wanted Solo to die.
Quote from: broodblik on 31 July, 2018, 08:50:59 AM
Quote from: SIP on 31 July, 2018, 08:46:21 AM
Take Force Awakens.......if Kylo had been no relation to Han, and 90% of the rest of the story had played out the same, with han helping the resistance, and at the end he successfully blew up the thingamy without facing Kylo (robbing po of the boring trench run rehash), rey fights Kylo, all escape in the falcon, everyone parts ways. We have had mostly the same film, Han isn't dead. Find the "emotional" connection elsewhere in one of the other characters. In that version, I've had the fun of the OT character amd Disney get their nostalgia hit.....why did they need to kill him?
My understanding was that Harrison Ford wanted Solo to die.
In 1983 he did. He's denied in a filmed interview that he had anything to do with it in Force Awakens. That was just apparently the script that he was presented with.
I've had that one used a few times now, it's been denied.
As for actors driving how these films pan out, if that was the case maybe Mark Hamill would have had more joy on the set of Last Jedi. He spent the whole production protesting about how they were handling Luke......nobody paid any attention to what he wanted for his character.
I would preferred if they did not use the original cast and really started from afresh. The changing of directors and script writers did not help to create a nice balanced story-line.
Quote from: SIP on 31 July, 2018, 08:46:21 AM
That's two comments above that allude to making the OT cast members "bad asses". Who wants that?
The internet, apparently. Apart from the races and genders of the new characters, and supposedly shocking* deviations from the laws of physics, the absence of a godlike steely-eyed Luke shooting green lightning from his fingers and smiting the Sithly with his unmatched lightsabre skills was one of the main objections to TLJ that I've seen in YouTube video after YouTube video. The fact that that Ultimate Warrior Luke didn't appear in any other SW films either didn't seem to matter.
SIP, if I understand you, you'd have been happier with the Big Three being wheeled on for nostalgia purposes, and then wheeled off again, unharmed? Really? Even Luke? What would it say about their characters that they didn't give their all to fight until evil was defeated?
*If you'd never watched a Star Wars film before.
Or to look at just Han: okay, say Han has no existing relationships with any of the characters, he just comes on board to help, quip, get punched, mocked, pull it out of the bag at the last minute, all that good Han stuff. Then job done, he... leaves? Like he did after dropping Leia at Yavin? Where does that leave his character, the journey he's been on? Han's whole thing in the OT is that he learns the value of not walking away alone, of sticking around and being part of family. Another objection to TFA is that it undoes this very thing by having Han and Chewie off on their own again... but this is shown as an aberration, a backsliding due to emotional pain, and Han's truest course is reestablished.
Quote from: SIP on 31 July, 2018, 08:53:08 AMIn 1983 he did. He's denied in a filmed interview that he had anything to do with it in Force Awakens. That was just apparently the script that he was presented with.
I've had that one used a few times now, it's been denied.
He may not have
written it but he openly supported and liked the idea whether it was to happen in Episode 7, 8, 9...
"I think it's a fitting use of the character...I've been arguing for Han Solo to die for about 30 years, not because I was tired of him or because he's boring, but his sacrifice for the other characters would lend gravitas and emotional weight."https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/movies/harrison-ford-why-han-solo-needed-to-die-but-indiana-jones-doesnt-20160323-gnoyk7.html
Quote from: TordelBack on 31 July, 2018, 09:43:35 AM
Or to look at just Han: okay, say Han has no existing relationships with any of the characters, he just comes on board to help, quip, get punched, mocked, pull it out of the bag at the last minute, all that good Han stuff. Then job done, he... leaves? Like he did after dropping Leia at Yavin? Where does that leave his character, the journey he's been on?
But we join Han when the galaxy is already facing the First Order, and he's off smuggling and swindling......while Leia is carrying on the good fight. So didn't they already establish that wasn't getting involved?
Bah, sorry SIP, added that point to the previous post while you were typing yours! :)
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 31 July, 2018, 09:43:40 AM
Quote from: SIP on 31 July, 2018, 08:53:08 AMIn 1983 he did. He's denied in a filmed interview that he had anything to do with it in Force Awakens. That was just apparently the script that he was presented with.
I've had that one used a few times now, it's been denied.
He may not have written it but he openly supported and liked the idea whether it was to happen in Episode 7, 8, 9...
"I think it's a fitting use of the character...I've been arguing for Han Solo to die for about 30 years, not because I was tired of him or because he's boring, but his sacrifice for the other characters would lend gravitas and emotional weight."
https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/movies/harrison-ford-why-han-solo-needed-to-die-but-indiana-jones-doesnt-20160323-gnoyk7.html
Yes, I'm aware that he made those comments, but my argument is that Mark Hamill's protestations of what should happen to his character had no impact on what got made, why do we assume that Harrison Ford's did? His comments had no impact on Lucas during production of Return of the Jedi, and he was a massive star at that point.
And the point still stands, Ford said he had nothing to do with what was included in the scripting of the film. He just did what was given to him.
Quote from: TordelBack on 31 July, 2018, 09:48:16 AM
Bah, sorry SIP, added that point to the previous post while you were typing yours! :)
Ha ha, no problem. Somewhere I lost a whole posting!
I was always in agreement with you TB, I didnt want them in the films. They should have started fresh. I think that their general inclusion has been to the detriment of these films.
So yes, "special guest star" appearances all around, except for luke who could have a more significant part, and I'm okay with him dying in the end.....he's effectively immortal anyway after all.
Quote from: SIP on 31 July, 2018, 09:52:27 AM
I was always in agreement with you TB, I didnt want them in the films. They should have started fresh. I think there general inclusion has been to the detriment of these films.
Definitely 100% agreement there. I suspect this would have been how it went if Lucas had retained control, which might actually have happened if the internet hadn't spent 20 years telling him how much everyone hated everything he touched with his money-grabbing hack's hands.
However, give the scale of the investment that was necessary to get SW away from Lucas and get movies made again, and the well-established conservative nature of its supposed 'fans', Disney took the sensible course, away from any hint of scary novelty: and to my mind the response to what I consider to be fresh thinking in TLJ shows they had made a shrewd choice.
As it is, I think our current disagreements come down to how flawed and abused we're prepared for our heroes to be, and still enjoy them. The films allowed me to believe in a Han and Luke utterly broken by their failures with Ben, and believe in their ability to still be themselves, and to find their faith and resolve again.
Quote from: SIP on 31 July, 2018, 08:53:08 AMIn 1983 he did.
Sorry for the misunderstanding; I was referring to the notion that this was only a thought he had in 1983 but it seems he was for it
all the time. The writers happened to agree. I've no doubt he would've gone along with whatever he was being paid to do as would Hamill. Hamill's personal caveat was he'd only agree to do the Sequels if Ford agreed to sign on.
That's hitting the nail on the head TB. I was happy with those characters being left in 1983. I don't want to see them brought low in these new films, it's jarring for me.
If they were to "pop up" in a joyful nostalgia way, then I could accept it "oh look it's han, that loveable rogue!.....bye han"..... but I'm struggling with a new generation of writers/directors dealing out repeated body blows to those characters, and portraying versions of their personalities that are entirely at odds with my own, long held, interpretation.
It's just sapping any enjoyment that I can get from the films.
Quote from: SIP on 31 July, 2018, 10:09:35 AMIt's just sapping any enjoyment that I can get from the films.
And that really is a shame: enjoyment is what these should represent. I hope IX does something to reverse the situation for you.
I didn't think the sequels-as-they-are would do
anything for me (still less Solo!), but I think it helps that I have an overwhelming sense of personal failure in my own life, and seeing my childhood heroes experience something similar, resorting to hiding from the world and their families and friends, and then finding a way to return and keep going, and (hopefully) to see their fresh-faced successors triumph in their stead, has worked for me. Far from being depressing, the sequels have become the definition of optimism for me.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 31 July, 2018, 10:07:07 AM
Quote from: SIP on 31 July, 2018, 08:53:08 AMIn 1983 he did.
Sorry for the misunderstanding; I was referring to the notion that this was only a thought he had in 1983 but it seems he was for it all the time.
As I understand it, Lucas was the one who wanted to kill off Solo in Jedi, but he "did some tests" (presumably with focus groups or fellow scriptwriters/directors) and the response was hostile so he backtracked on it much as he did with many other ideas for the films, though some snippets of the original plan remain in the Jedi that was shot (Solo commenting "I feel like I'll never see her again" while looking at the Falcon, taking a dive to a gunshot in the Endor attack) and the idea that Solo might have been bumped off then became a fun trivia point about Star Wars in the following years.
How much Ford
actually wanted the character to die is debatable because anecdotal evidence from others suggest he was quite happy with his work on Star Wars, and a far more likely scenario given how much JJ Abrams recycled in The Force Awakens from the OT production office bins is that JJ simply wanted to channel some of that pub trivia cache into his movie because JJA's track record in both tv and movies shows that he clearly believes that there's no such thing as "cheap" heat.
Quote from: TordelBack on 31 July, 2018, 10:03:28 AM
Quote from: SIP on 31 July, 2018, 09:52:27 AM
I was always in agreement with you TB, I didnt want them in the films. They should have started fresh. I think there general inclusion has been to the detriment of these films.
Definitely 100% agreement there. I suspect this would have been how it went if Lucas had retained control, which might actually have happened if the internet hadn't spent 20 years telling him how much everyone hated everything he touched with his money-grabbing hack's hands.
He began talking to the original trio in August 2012 about returning (he had spent some time working on Sequel outlines) and told them Kennedy would be taking over Lucasfilm and they both began interviewing screenwriters for Episode VII. Just a few months before this, in April 2012, his neighbours ulitmately scuppered plans to expand Lucasfilm's operations so he changed his plans to build affordable housing for low-income families instead. The cast found out in October he was selling to Disney.
After facing strong opposition from Marin County homeowners and environmentalists over the past 25 years, George Lucas has decided to pull the plug on a new Lucasfilm studio facility at Grady Ranch.
The company will now consider offers from other cities to build the Spanish mission-style compound that would have included a 269,000-square-foot digital media studio, two indoor sound stages, a 7,000-square-foot outdoor stage, screening rooms, guest housing, general store, employee cafeteria and wine cave.
"Movies are waiting to be made, and we must move forward," the company said. "Unfortunately, the projects we had planned to shoot on those stages have already started production and we will need the studio space by early 2013."https://variety.com/2012/film/news/lucasfilm-seeks-new-studio-site-1118052497/
https://www.indiewire.com/2012/11/george-lucas-met-with-screenwriters-mark-hamill-carrie-fisher-about-star-wars-7-before-disney-sale-104440/
I believe he did invest himself in the idea of the Sequels with the original cast while he mulled over the sale to Disney but there's a bigger untold story there concerning the transition. A finished manuscript (https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2016/05/swnn-exclusive-full-interview-with-%D0%B0uthor-j-w-rinzler.html) of Rinzler's
The Making of The Force Awakens (originally scheduled for release with the art book) documents all this but still remains on a shelf at Lucasfilm. There's been no
Making of.. book commissioned for any Disney made Star wars film since...
Quote from: sheridan on 31 July, 2018, 11:32:31 AM
1980, surely?
1980-83.
Ford wanted Han to die in either
Empire or
Return of the Jedi. As the story goes, Lucas wasn't sure Ford would return at all and unlike the others, his contract was only film by film, so he had him slabbed in carbonite at the end of
Empire just in case.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 31 July, 2018, 11:07:51 AM
How much Ford actually wanted the character to die is debatable because anecdotal evidence from others suggest he was quite happy with his work on Star Wars, and a far more likely scenario given how much JJ Abrams recycled in The Force Awakens from the OT production office bins is that JJ simply wanted to channel some of that pub trivia cache into his movie because JJA's track record in both tv and movies shows that he clearly believes that there's no such thing as "cheap" heat.
Ford is happy to be still working. He'd have gone on with whatever they gave him but he never complained about Han being an absent father or falling off a gantry with a smoking hole in his chest. He did reiterate again, though, how he though Han should die.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 31 July, 2018, 11:38:03 AM
He began talking to the original trio in August 2012 about returning (he had spent some time working on Sequel outlines) and told them Kennedy would be taking over Lucasfilm and they both began interviewing screenwriters for Episode VII. Just a few months before this, in April 2012, his neighbours ulitmately scuppered plans to expand Lucasfilm's operations so he changed his plans to build affordable housing for low-income families instead. The cast found out in October he was selling to Disney.
Ah, I'd forgotten most of this, cheers Mr. S! The absence of anything resembling a "Making of..." I had not missed - we got more,
much more, from the Phantom Menace issue of
Cinefex than we have for the whole Disney era. Art books have been nice though!
In fact, watching the Phantom Menace DVD documentary again just the other day, I was struck by the almost scary openness at LFL. I know RLM mock the yes-man attitude and palpable fear of the end product on display, but there is such sincerity of ambition and awareness of the problems on everyone's part, Lucas and McGregor in particular, that the genuine intention to make something great is the main thing I took away. Berman McCallum seems to be only guy who comes across a bit false, but that may just be his manner.
You can see Lucas struggling with how to handle Jake Lloyd's performance after championing him at audition (note: not Jake's fault, he's tiny when all this starts), the worry over how central Jar Jar is and confusion of how to deliver him, and the bewilderment in the editing room as George starts pulling elements of shots apart in search of the perfect take, rather than directing the damn thing in the first place. We even get budget meetings with actual dollar figures attached for every aspect of a sequence! It just reinforces my view of TPM as a really magnificent failure, and it's hard to imagine anything being more different from the massaged, soundbited and soundtracked snippets we get from the current productions.
The problem with Star Wars is that the original trilogy setup a bar that will be difficult to beat or even get close to par on. The original creator is not even remotely involved with the current trilogy. The current movies look great, but it feels empty almost like the people who made them does not understand the universe it exists in. They all say they are fans but typically Hollywood they think they know better and then they make these money-making soulless movies. The worst part is that I will watch the next move in the trilogy.
Quote from: broodblik on 31 July, 2018, 12:21:59 PMThe current movies look great, but it feels empty almost like the people who made them does not understand the universe it exists in.
I can believe this of Abrams (I don't think Abrams thinks much beyond what works in the moment, and he's very good at that), but not Johnson: I think he understood exactly how the SW universe worked, but by defining that rather explicitly, he collapsed the waveform and pissed off everyone who understood it differently.
But as you say, my Episode IX ticket is already sold.
Quote from: TordelBack on 31 July, 2018, 12:24:10 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 31 July, 2018, 12:21:59 PMThe current movies look great, but it feels empty almost like the people who made them does not understand the universe it exists in.
I can believe this of Abrams (I don't think Abrams thinks much beyond what works in the moment, and he's very good at that), but not Johnson: I think he understood exactly how the SW universe worked, but by defining that rather explicitly, he collapsed the waveform and pissed off everyone who understood it differently.
But as you say, my Episode IX ticket is already sold.
I hated what Johnson did with Luke Skywalker. His character felt completely out of touch compared to the original trilogy. Now Abrams is back on directing the new movie if I am correct ? Who is on writing duties ?
Quote from: broodblik on 31 July, 2018, 12:30:44 PM
Now Abrams is back on directing the new movie if I am correct ? Who is on writing duties ?
Chris Terrio & JJ Abrams (with help from George Lucas, apparently).
Quote from: TordelBack on 31 July, 2018, 12:24:10 PM
Johnson: I think he understood exactly how the SW universe worked
I'd agree with that; even down to drawing references to older films rather than just referencing Star Wars – which is what everyone else does.
Todd Fisher Reveals J. J. Abrams Will Also Incorporate Unused Footage of Carrie Fisher from 'The Last Jedi' to Bring Back Leia (https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2018/08/star-wars-episode-ix-exclusive-todd-fisher-reveals-j-j-abrams-will-also-incorporate-unused-footage-of-carrie-fisher-from-the-last-jedi-to-bring-back-leia.html)
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 03 August, 2018, 10:48:54 PM
Todd Fisher Reveals J. J. Abrams Will Also Incorporate Unused Footage of Carrie Fisher from 'The Last Jedi' to Bring Back Leia (https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2018/08/star-wars-episode-ix-exclusive-todd-fisher-reveals-j-j-abrams-will-also-incorporate-unused-footage-of-carrie-fisher-from-the-last-jedi-to-bring-back-leia.html)
I read that whole thing in Mike Stoklasa's Nerd Crew (https://youtu.be/FVzc20Bm8Xo) voice.
I know this sits badly with a lot of people, but I actually don't mind since they are using actual footage, and as long as it's used in a way that makes sense to the story.
A CGI representation would have been in bad taste, but I think this could be a nice send-off.
I hope they can do it in such a way that it does not feel like it's been crow-barred in, though.
Quote from: Mardroid on 04 August, 2018, 03:37:26 PM
...in a way that makes sense to the story.
J.J Abrams is making this movie
Quote from: Mister Pops on 05 August, 2018, 01:10:43 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 04 August, 2018, 03:37:26 PM
...in a way that makes sense to the story.
J.J Abrams is making this movie
Well I'd say he's got as more good stuff than bad under his belt but granted, I'm not sure long term story planning is his strong suit. I usually find his output interesting, although I might be scratching my head afterwards.
Let's see how JJ second stint goes. I preferred his take than Johnson take on the story
Quote from: Mardroid on 05 August, 2018, 01:28:02 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 05 August, 2018, 01:10:43 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 04 August, 2018, 03:37:26 PM
...in a way that makes sense to the story.
J.J Abrams is making this movie
Well I'd say he's got as more good stuff than bad under his belt but granted, I'm not sure long term story planning is his strong suit. I usually find his output interesting, although I might be scratching my head afterwards.
He can put a buncha likeable characters with great chemistry up on screen, but their motivations are often baffling. Like why is Spock (SPOCK!) trying to cave in Blunderbus Cattletraps face with his bare fists? It's not entirely his fault, it seems like he just directs whatever is in the script he's given. Scripts that mostly seem to be written by Kurtzmann and Orci, a pair whose continual employment on high profile projects is almost as confounding as one of their screenplays.
Quote from: broodblik on 05 August, 2018, 01:35:02 PM
Let's see how JJ second stint goes.
I agree.
QuoteI preferred his take than Johnson take on the story
I enjoyed both of the sequel films, although I found the galactic geography* and the political nature** of the universe a bit confusing in The Force Awakens.
And having recently rewatched The Last Jedi on blu-ray, I think it's a really good film. I have mixed feelings concerning [spoiler] Luke's death,[/spoiler] but I think it held up very well as a whole. I do understand why many didn't like it, which largely seems to bog down to it not fulfilling fans plot-expectations but I'd argue that might not be bad thing.
I'd even see Finn and cos' excursion [spoiler]as not being a waste of time (something brought up a lot as to 'why tLJ is a bad film) despite they're mission ultimately failing. Plots not going to plan is a staple of good story telling, and they did a good thing in breaking up that casino and giving hope to the slaves there, and setting free those beasts. (A great creature design, by the way.) One of the main messages of this film is to rekindle hope, and indeed, The Rebellion.[/spoiler]
The level of vitriol on the internet in response to tLJ is shocking though. Or maybe not, considering it's the internet. Not so much here, where discussion is largely civilised.
*A contradiction, in terms, I'm aware, since geography pertains to a specific world. I'm referring to the position of the planets considering [spoiler]the destruction of Republic worlds were viewable from the characters' current position. Maybe the super-superlaser opens wormholes or some such, and we're seeing through them?[/spoiler] 'Astronomy' might have been a better term here, but that's not quite right either as that's more a study of the cosmos rather than the location of planets in relation to each other... although that's part of it.
** Tordelback and other's explanation did ease my confusion, but I think it would have been simpler to just have the resistance ships as republic craft, if they're not going to provide an explanation in the film. The idea that the Republic are reluctant to take action against the First Order, or at least don't want to be seen to be, does make sense of the resistance shenanigans. Maybe they left out the lengthier explanation so the film didn't get bogged down with political waffle (although an extra line in the scrolling intro-text would have sufficed for that) but then they could have just made the republic a bit more militant.
Quote from: Mardroid on 05 August, 2018, 02:14:48 PMThe level of vitriol on the internet in response to tLJ is shocking though. Or maybe not, considering it's the internet. Not so much here, where discussion is largely civilised.
Movie companies deliberately engineer the visibility of outrageous and vitriolic responses to their movies now because there's no downside: their movie gets promoted and the movie's critics are tarred as unreasonable manbabies - I mean, sure the odd actor gets chased off the internet by racists who want to kill and rape them, but that's not Disney's problem.
Quote from: Mister Pops on 05 August, 2018, 02:02:43 PMLike why is Spock (SPOCK!) trying to cave in Blunderbus Cattletraps face with his bare fists?
Spock wants REVENNNNNNNGE, of course - like everyone else in JJA's Trek movies. It's so bad that when Kirk wasn't motivated by revenge, his arc was that he didn't know what to do with himself - so he ended up fighting someone who wanted revenge.
My problem with JJA doing Episode 9 is that so much of Episode 8 was a deliberate reaction to and rejection of what JJA did in Episode 7 and I don't think JJA has the creative self-awareness to follow up on it. I suspect that Episode 9 will be the disappointment of a generation, so I expect Disney to push hard on the idea that its critics are a hive mind of anti-progressives.
I think the statement that episode 8 is a deliberate reaction and rejection to everything done in episode 7 says it all about the whole sorry Star Wars mess. What company allows a franchise "Part 2" film to be made that is perceived to be a complete rejection of its own "Part 1"?
Surely anyone can see that's not a positive thing.
It was stated up thread that most people who don't like episode 8, don't like it because it effectively didn't fulfil the expectation that "we" had. Not the case at all. This also seems to be a mainstay of the pro-episode 8 team. That the rest of us had some preconceived notion of luke and how it should all play out. Not so. I didn't like it because I thought it was poorly written , poorly paced, with dull character arcs and storyline. It also completely misfires on its main characters. I had no expectations other than hoping that it would be a good film. I didn't think it was. It's as straight forward as that.
Most people that I talk to who do not like episode 8 do not belong to this strange "I want super luke kicking ass" faction that is constantly brought up. But most Last Jedi fans appear to think that you need to be in that minority group if for some unknown reason you don't like the film. I can accept plenty of people like it, others need to accept that plenty of balanced, reasonable and intelligent people also really do not like it .
I'm sure you'll all be happy to hear that I'm feeling a lot more zen about last jedi.....I've turned over a new leaf and have now decided to stop letting it ruin each day that it gets mentioned. ;)
Quote from: Professor Bear on 05 August, 2018, 02:33:39 PM
My problem with JJA doing Episode 9 is that so much of Episode 8 was a deliberate reaction to and rejection of what JJA did in Episode 7 and I don't think JJA has the creative self-awareness to follow up on it.
I think it's a
bit unlikely that Lucasfilm and/or Disney haven't insisted on the two lads working together since Treverrow departed, or indeed didn't think about it between VII and VIII (regardless of what Abrams and Johnson might say about their creative freedom), especially given the chopping and changing over of directors over the last few years. I also don't see TLJ as a rejection of TFA, so much as a very clever continuation.
My main worry about IX, apart from the pressure for dull conservative fan-service, is that Abrams is definitely the man you want to start up a series, but far less so the man you'd ask to finish one. Maybe Ron Howard will step in!
Just so long as things explode. I love it when things explode, especially big things.
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 05 August, 2018, 09:16:25 PM
Just so long as things explode. I love it when things explode, especially big things.
Fingers crossed for a big space station with a super laser.
Quote from: SIP on 05 August, 2018, 09:21:14 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 05 August, 2018, 09:16:25 PM
Just so long as things explode. I love it when things explode, especially big things.
Fingers crossed for a big space station with a super laser.
Biggest surprise possible for IX would be that there
isn't one! Or that if there is, Rose builds it for the Resistance: "That's how we are going to win. Not fighting what we hate, but but blowing it up with a ruddy big superlaser. Of love".
I can only assume those who feel The Last Jedi is a rejection of the main points of The Force Awakens expected other resolutions to what was presented to them; but to me it resolved those key things in ways that were both revealing and have the of course factor i.e. it didn't contradict but stayed true to the Luke hinted at in Han's words: "...one boy, an apprentice, turned against him and destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just...walked away from everything." and gave an answer as to why this would be the case for someone who decided to just up and run away several years ago.
Kylo carried out his vow: "Show me... Grandfather... and I will finish... what you started." by killing his master; and Rey, revealed as not having a familial connection to anyone, was given some much needed depth and relatability which the Skywalker factor can hinder.
The Last Jedi has other issues but it met the key questions head on.
Quote from: TordelBack on 05 August, 2018, 09:34:09 PM
Quote from: SIP on 05 August, 2018, 09:21:14 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 05 August, 2018, 09:16:25 PM
Just so long as things explode. I love it when things explode, especially big things.
Fingers crossed for a big space station with a super laser.
Biggest surprise possible for IX would be that there isn't one! Or that if there is, Rose builds it for the Resistance: "That's how we are going to win. Not fighting what we hate, but but blowing it up with a ruddy big superlaser. Of love".
Rose becomes Saddam Hussein in Big Dave? Bold move.
Quote from: TordelBack on 05 August, 2018, 09:34:09 PM
Biggest surprise possible for IX would be that there isn't one! Or that if there is, Rose builds it for the Resistance: "That's how we are going to win. Not fighting what we hate, but but blowing it up with a ruddy big superlaser. Of love".
I was expecting the Resistance to do that by capturing Starkiller base but my expectations were 'subverted'.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 05 August, 2018, 09:41:03 PM
I can only assume those who feel The Last Jedi is a rejection of the main points of The Force Awakens expected other resolutions to what was presented to them
I obviously can't speak for others, but as the person who brought this up on the thread, I personally meant the allusions to historical/heroic cycles, the perpetuation of failed systems, and enabling never ending conflict in which the tropes of Star Wars are central. TLJ's assertion that the Jedi are stuck in some kind of storytelling Groundhog Day really only works in the context of commentary on TFA, because there were no cycles of failure across two trilogies of movies (OT and PT) as one was simply calling back to the other - where they became unhelpful tropes was when TFA went to the same well unironically, something for which it was both lambasted and praised. In other words, twice is just coincidence, but three times is a cycle, and that brings the focus back to TFA and how TLJ's characters must reject what it enshrines.
I suppose the best example is Rey's parentage: in the context of the fiction, the revelation that Rey's parents were nobodies is unimportant and what is significant for her emotionally is that
they were never coming back for her, but that's not what the fans, the discussion of the film, or even the film itself prioritises - Rey's reaction is to the debunking of the fan theory that she had a famous sire, which I feel compelled to point out
technically wasn't even in TFA unless you take a very literal meaning of Maz Kanata's deliberately cryptic comments about laser swords finding their way around.*
Understand, none of this is to suggest that in acknowledging or rejecting elements of its predecessor The Last Jedi is passing judgement on The Force Awakens so much as that Rian Johnson was running with the ball he'd been passed. TLJ still works if you want it to.
* The assumption being that Anakin's lightsaber found its way to Rey because it was hers by lineage, rather than finding its way to her in order to bring her to Luke.
Quote from: Mardroid on 05 August, 2018, 01:28:02 PM
I usually find his output interesting, although I might be scratching my head afterwards.
Sounds like a fair summary of Lost.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 05 August, 2018, 10:35:37 PM
Understand, none of this is to suggest that in acknowledging or rejecting elements of its predecessor The Last Jedi is passing judgement on The Force Awakens so much as that Rian Johnson was running with the ball he'd been passed. TLJ still works if you want it to.
I want it to work for me but TLJ feels like a movie with great action scenes, grand scenario and cool CGI with lazy writing (if I can quote Deadpool here). As I said previously I do not mind some humour in my movie but your main general becomes the comic relieve, really ?
Watched Last Jedi again tonight and really enjoyedcit again. My favourite laugh is still when the unreconstructed Poe says "So then we blow it up?".
Top marks to supporting cast. Tordels already mentioned Arkady (especially his look just at his very end) but there are a whole slew of unnamed Resistance guys and gals who sketch likeable characters from very little in the way of lines.
Plus the Porg get better on every viewing.
The bit that establishes the tone for me, straight out of Billie Lourde's rather fine "Oh no", is still Ade Edmonson's gleeful "We've caught them in the middle of their evacuation". It's magnificently brazen, 100% Eddie Hitler, reassures that Johnson knows exactly what he's doing, and is streets ahead of the forced humour and fart jokes of the prequels: I still shudder when I think of McGregor's inexplicable fake laughter in the opening lift scene in AotC. Anyway, it ensures I start the movie each time with a massive grin on my face, and it stays there.
That was Ade Edmondson ? Bloody hell.. totally missed that.
You'll get no argument from me on the awful forced-humour of the prequels, they are indeed shudder inducing.
I'm not sure if an "evacuation" joke followed by a bizarre telephone call "your momma" joke to our comedy pantomime general offered me any reassurance that Johnson knew exactly what he was doing, it only showed that he was as clueless on the tone of humour as George was on the prequels, broadly aiming it at the same level.
Or in the Edmonson case that he was a fan of his previous work, and realised a fun way of sneaking in a suitably silly joke that people who realised who the actor was would be really happy with.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 08 August, 2018, 10:14:26 AM
Or in the Edmonson case that he was a fan of his previous work, and realised a fun way of sneaking in a suitably silly joke that people who realised who the actor was would be really happy with.
It's not exactly subtle though is it? How are either of those jokes less childish or irritating to a general audience than a fart joke. Just as cringeworthy from my seat.
And sadly Star wars has become cameo appearance territory now.
I'm officially depressed with all things star wars post 1983. It's mostly a sliding scale from average to poor. I'm going back into my corner now to play with Kenner star wars figures and remember when this stuff used to have some heart.
I clearly need to stop "contributing" to these threads.....for everyone's sake.
Sorry SIP, genuinely don't mean to cause you daily distress with my Sequel commenting addiction.
I don't see Ade as a gratuitous cameo, he's great as Hux's No. 2 (hur-hur-hur), a memorable little character and - as noted - largely unrecognised. Other minor cameos in the sequels are completely unrecognisable (Daniel Craig and Simon Pegg in TFA), or blink-and-you'll-miss-it backgrounders (Lilly Cole, Edgar Wright and Joe Cornish in TLJ). I can't begrudge appearances SW family members like Gareth Edwards and Chelsea Hamill, that's a tradition that goes back to Ralph McQuarrie and Richard Marquand, and latterly the Lucases. And Warwick Davis gets an auto-pass.
OTH Joseph Gordon-Levitt's annoying Neighbourhood Watch Abednedo on Canto Bight sticks out like a sore thumb, terrible choice of performance. I miss the days when almost all the aliens (and droids) in SW had a made-up language, instead of funny accents.
Quote from: TordelBack on 08 August, 2018, 11:10:59 AM
Sorry SIP, genuinely don't mean to cause you daily distress with my Sequel commenting addiction.
Oh, don't worry TB, you aren't causing me daily distress, that is all entirely self-inflicted!
It is a subject that I'm very passionate about, and I think that whenever I'm debating Star Wars I'm perhaps too forward in my point of view. I'm concerned that I'm coming across badly and losing my points in my endless rambles.
I am genuinely happy that Star Wars is continuing to bring joy to people (it's my older brothers obsession), that is a positive thing.
I often read these debates and wonder if I'm missing something.......I am a person always happy to be persuaded by a solid argument, or at the least be enlightened by others perspectives.
I'm failing to see the light on the majority of the new Star Wars output, even worse than that, I'm now feeling increasingly jaded towards the prequels too. That appears to be a result of the new trilogy, along with Rogue One and Rebels, chipping away at my ability to overlook the glaring issues with those films.
Star wars appears to have lost all of its joy, though Solo gave me some welcome respite from that. I feel irritated and fed up with it most of the time now and spend more time in arguments about it than is healthy for a 45 year old man!
I've just heard the Favreau series is to be set on Mandalore. I should be excited.....I would have been 5 years ago. My immediate thought was negative.
On the face of it, it would appear that these films just aren't intended for the middle-aged original Star Wars fans, so I think it's probably advisable for me to stop passing comment on something that just clearly isn't for me, and let those who love them carry on having a good time.
Quote from: SIP on 08 August, 2018, 11:36:22 AM
I've just heard the Favreau series is to be set on Mandalore. I should be excited.....I would have been 5 years ago. My immediate thought was negative.
Heh, mine too. I find everything about Mandalore boring, with the exceptions of Obi-Wan's relationship with Satine and the KotR game (and comic). Still, I wonder if this isn't just lazy scribblers equating Favreau's Pre Vizla character with his new project.
Incidentally, Favreau's Rio Durant in
Solo is another character who would have benefited from a voice performance that offered something more alien than Brookyln. He's a great character, gone too soon*, but he always seemed one line away from reminiscing about the lox and bagels at Gottlieb's.
*You can add Val to that statement - it's unfortunate that the spin-off movies seem to have made a practice of sketching out interesting new characters shortly before killing them. In the case of
Solo, [spoiler]Qi'Ra, Enfys Nest and maybe Moloch[/spoiler] (but he's a bit ho-hum) are the only survivors for future adventures. In
Rogue One, no-one at all. Think of the lost potential for further adventures of Rio, Chirrut and Baze, General Merrick (Blue Leader)... Not a great way to broaden the franchise.
Quote from: TordelBack on 08 August, 2018, 12:00:28 PM
Quote from: SIP on 08 August, 2018, 11:36:22 AM
I've just heard the Favreau series is to be set on Mandalore. I should be excited.....I would have been 5 years ago. My immediate thought was negative.
Heh, mine too. I find everything about Mandalore boring, with the exceptions of Obi-Wan's relationship with Satine and the KotR game (and comic). Still, I wonder if this isn't just lazy scribblers equating Favreau's Pre Vizla character with his new project.
Incidentally, Favreau's Rio Durant in Solo is another character who would have benefited from a voice performance that offered something more alien than Brookyln. He's a great character, gone too soon, but he always seemed one line away from reminiscing about the lox and bagels at Gottlieb's.
Kotor Mandalore was absolutely the way to go with this......that would have generated a lot of excitement and would provide some much needed distance from the skywalker era. I believe it's set 3 years after Return of the Jedi though.
I think Favreau will do a good job......so my fingers are crossed.
Star Wars IX* guaranteed to win Academy Award: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-45115581
* ... and every subsequent Star Wars movie, unless Chris Nolan has a film out that year
Quote from: Mardroid on 05 August, 2018, 02:14:48 PM
'Astronomy' might have been a better term here, but that's not quite right either as that's more a study of the cosmos rather than the location of planets in relation to each other... although that's part of it.
Planetology?
The humour was probably the single weakest element of TLJ for me. I like humour in an action adventure film, but I also think it's important to know when it's appropriate and when to ease off on it. (I think the Marvel movies are generally pretty good at this). But there's no consistency to the approach and tone of the humour in TLJ - it seems like they're just throwing everything at the wall in a slightly sweaty, desperate way to endear the film to the audience. The steam iron bit was downright bizarre - on a level with Chewie's Tarzan impression in Jedi as just seeming really out of place and distracting. A very odd choice.
That should be the tagline on the movie poster:
Star wars : The Last Jedi "A very odd choice".
:D
Well I loved The Last Jedi, controversial I know.
Hopefully Episode 9 can continue the trend.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 17 August, 2018, 12:00:43 PM
Well I loved The Last Jedi, controversial I know.
And if it works for the quality-conscious unpronouncable Japanese robot-suit crowd, you know it's good! ;)
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 17 August, 2018, 12:00:43 PM
Well I loved The Last Jedi, controversial I know.
Hopefully Episode 9 can continue the trend.
I don't think it's "controversial" to like it.....lots of people do.....you're safe I think.
Well, as long as you stay off all social media platforms and YouTube......its juat best all arpund not to tell "them" ;)
Apologies for the inexplicable typos.....my phone is always very keen to swap real words for complete nonsense. That's my excuse anyway.
Quote from: SIP on 17 August, 2018, 01:16:42 PM
Apologies for the inexplicable typos.....my phone is always very keen to swap real words for complete nonsense. That's my excuse anyway.
Don't worry your post was better constructed than the script for The Last Jedi :D
Quote from: broodblik on 17 August, 2018, 02:34:36 PM
Don't worry your post was better constructed than the script for The Last Jedi :D
:lol:
Will not be going to see. I didn't go to see Solo because 8 was sooo boring and directionless ( i still don't understand how rebels can jump ship for a side quest) but 9 can get tae fook! I'm OK with a lot of the new crap but Poppins and Holdo and Rian Johnson...nope.
I understand that they are trying to garner the next gen of fans but its too soon to alienate the old guard
At least DR who took a few seasons to utterly alienate the old guard (IMHO)....
All my opinion...I'm not spitting the dummy out etc...just moved on....Nu SW is not meant for me...
Well, comment-thread opinions are in on the Resistance trailer, and. Dear. God. Nooo! It's for KIDS! What are Disney thinking, SW cartoons for kids. The monsters.
My favourite dismissal: "Dave Filoni is barely involved in this". Because after all he was fully involved in Clone Wars and Rebels, and those were for adults. Weren't they? I mean I'm sure I don't remember anyone giving out about the animation style, childish storylines, bratty characters in those...
Star Wars 'fans', at this point I'm almost done with them.
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 August, 2018, 05:11:37 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 17 August, 2018, 02:34:36 PM
Don't worry your post was better constructed than the script for The Last Jedi :D
:lol:
Brexit was better constructed than The Last Jedi.
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 August, 2018, 12:54:06 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 17 August, 2018, 12:00:43 PM
Well I loved The Last Jedi, controversial I know.
And if it works for the quality-conscious unpronouncable Japanese robot-suit crowd, you know it's good! ;)
The Last Jedi is just Do You Remember Love with less cool space battles.
Your slight has turned me to the darkside, Tordels!*
*I jest of course.
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 August, 2018, 07:38:35 PM
Well, comment-thread opinions are in on the Resistance trailer, and. Dear. God. Nooo! It's for KIDS! What are Disney thinking, SW cartoons for kids. The monsters.
My favourite dismissal: "Dave Filoni is barely involved in this". Because after all he was fully involved in Clone Wars and Rebels, and those were for adults. Weren't they? I mean I'm sure I don't remember anyone giving out about the animation style, childish storylines, bratty characters in those...
Star Wars 'fans', at this point I'm almost done with them.
I do MOSTLY agree with you TB.....and I think Rebels is almost entirely child focussed....but I would say that large chunks of Clone wars were quite adult in tone and I think Clone wars represented a more mixed age range audience.
The trailer for the new cartoon is definitely not for me. One for the under 10's I think.
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 August, 2018, 07:38:35 PM
Well, comment-thread opinions are in on the Resistance trailer, and. Dear. God. Nooo!
Has the
Freemaker Adventures ever made it to these shores? I didn't catch much of it, but what I did seemed quite amusing, and acutely aware of Star Wars' more overused themes and tropes.
Like many, I had hopes when Tha Diz dropped the words "anime style" in relation to Resistance it would mean something closer to 2d hand-drawn animation - you know,
anime - rather than the cheapo 3d modeled cel-coloured method that originated from European animation studios like Attitude - whose
Skyland is a gorgeous show to look at, but a case study in how that means naff all without a coherent narrative voice and consistent dramatic tone ala Avatar or Korra. The exuberance on display in the SWR trailer seems to suggest a lack of sophistication more than "childishness", as some very childish shows of recent years (Stephen Universe, Gravity Falls, Teen Titans Go!) have shown an unexpected maturity to compliment their ebullience that one might see as a mirror image of the live-action Star Wars' latter turn towards mumblecore bathos.
Mind you it's a fuckin cartoon for babies and we've got Clone Wars back and that'll probably be full of people getting laser knives jammed in their guts - I don't think anyone who wants grimdark in their SW has really got much to complain about.
Quote from: SIP on 17 August, 2018, 10:22:49 PM
.....and I think Rebels is almost entirely child focussed....
I
really enjoyed Rebels. Yes, the animation style was a little simplistic but it was smart and engaging, and often very well-written. As a grown man who hasn't really given much of a shit about Star Wars for thirty-odd years, Rebels gave me a number of Star Wars geek thrills that I wasn't expecting to feel... from [spoiler]the appearance of Obi Wan[/spoiler] to [spoiler]the presence of Rex and the Clone Wars veterans.[/spoiler] I thought the ratio of duff episodes compared very favourably to Clone Wars.
Just because something doesn't contain material that is inappropriate for children doesn't mean that it's
exclusively for children. This is the sort of bollocks that people trot out as an argument against 'all ages' comics.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 17 August, 2018, 11:02:04 PM
Quote from: SIP on 17 August, 2018, 10:22:49 PM
.....and I think Rebels is almost entirely child focussed....
I really enjoyed Rebels. Yes, the animation style was a little simplistic but it was smart and engaging, and often very well-written. As a grown man who hasn't really given much of a shit about Star Wars for thirty-odd years, Rebels gave me a number of Star Wars geek thrills that I wasn't expecting to feel... from [spoiler]the appearance of Obi Wan[/spoiler] to [spoiler]the presence of Rex and the Clone Wars veterans.[/spoiler] I thought the ratio of duff episodes compared very favourably to Clone Wars.
Just because something doesn't contain material that is inappropriate for children doesn't mean that it's exclusively for children. This is the sort of bollocks that people trot out as an argument against 'all ages' comics.
Tha wasnt my point at all......from my view, the stories just played to a younger audience. The series felt like it was aiming at a younger audience than clone wars. That doesn't bother me at all, I'm happy for all Star Wars to be aimed wherever it's aimed, I just didn't personally enjoy it.
Quote from: SIP on 17 August, 2018, 10:22:49 PM... large chunks of Clone wars were quite adult in tone ...
Large chunks certainly, but by no means all, or even most. I'm currently watching the 5th Season with my son, and while there are plenty of complex intense arcs, there's also an
8-episode block in the middle where we follow Younglings playing Treasure Island, then a gang of comedy droids led by a incompetent bombastic frog. The (serious) episode where the Jedi Temple is bombed features a Crime Scene Investigation droid called (for no in-story reason) Russo, who keeps taking his robo-shades on and off. Clearly this Dave Filoni is the natural heir to Vittorio de Sica.
Now I like these silly stories, probably because I'm capable of enjoying material that doesn't include a certain number of decapitations per act, but for that too-vocal section of fandom to suddenly decide that they
didn't abhor Ashoka, demanded Lucas stopped interfering, and moaned incessantly about cutesy story arcs on every available forum...
I have zero problem with Star Wars cartoons being made for kids, and I fully expect to watch this. Although I suspect the realisation that - yet again - pretty much all these characters will be dead by the end of Episode VIII is going to be a downer.
In terms of general content, Rebels skews a bit younger than The Clone Wars, but it hews much closer to the tone parameters of the original films than any other Star Wars release.
S'right. My eldest was 2-and-a-bit when The Clone Wars came out, too young to see it in the cinema, but we he watched, and loved, the cartoons from the time he was 3. He still loves them at 12, and can't wait for the 'new' season.
Rebels came out when he was 8, and while he enjoyed watching it, it was never really his thing - the main character was a kid, and there weren't enough Clones, even when Rex, Wolfe and Gregor showed up. (I liked it a lot, especially the McQuarrie aesthetic, and the mystical bits). He already knew what he wanted from SW and this wasn't really it.
At the ripe old age of 12 he took one look at the Resistance trailer and condemned it as being 'for kids' (although I'm sure he'll watch it with me nonetheless, he likes to humour the elderly).
This is how it should be. You have your own bit of Star Wars, pitched perfectly when you are the right age (for me that Star Destroyer overhead at 6, for my son, the Second Battle of Geonosis at 3), you enjoy others, and some bits just aren't for you: they're for someone else. I was thrilled to find that TLJ was another SW moment that worked perfectly for me - but I didn't expect it.
Going on the internet and systematically down-voting, 'boycotting' and bitching about something that may not be for you before it's even aired, IMO largely because you've been sucked into some kind of quasi-hysterical socio-politically motivated group-think... This one isn'y for you, move the fuck along, find some rape-porn and dig in. I honestly think I'm completely done with modern 'fandom'. It's beyond pathetic, and its starting to make me dread every new release, rather than looking forward to it.
The twitter-storm will be EPIC.
Lucasfilm's Kathleen Kennedy Gets 3-Year Contract Extension (https://deadline.com/2018/09/kathleen-kennedy-contract-extension-lucasfilm-star-wars-1202473246/)
Looks like that Rian Johnson trilogy is still a go.
B-b-b-ut, all the True Fans told me on their YouTube channels that Secret Lucasfilm Sources had confirmed her having been fired on multiple occasions... She must have threatened Bob Iger that she'd tell everyone he dropped the hand at the Christmas party. It's Me Too 3rd Wave Feminism PC Cuck Madness!
Cosplayers with connections.
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 August, 2018, 10:46:57 AM
Going on the internet and systematically down-voting, 'boycotting' and bitching about something that may not be for you before it's even aired, IMO largely because you've been sucked into some kind of quasi-hysterical socio-politically motivated group-think... This one isn'y for you, move the fuck along, find some rape-porn and dig in. I honestly think I'm completely done with modern 'fandom'. It's beyond pathetic, and its starting to make me dread every new release, rather than looking forward to it.
It's fairly easy to avoid all that negativity - to be honest I think I could cut it out completely if I don't follow the links from threads like this one.
Yep. If the thumbnail has a person pulling at their hair in frustration, don't Watch it. Don't read comments sections.
I must have missed where it said Johnson's trilogy was still on. Another Indy movie seems a mistake though unless there's some good baton passing and it goes all M:I on the stuntwork.
Well, no. You basically have to avoid ALL online content relating to SW, with very few exceptions. Imagine if the second post of every thread on here claimed Matt Smith was worse than Hitler, every story since Rebellion took over was shit, the inclusion of Judges Anderson and Giant was a liberal feminazi conspiracy to destroy the white race and we should boycott the comic until Steve McManus comes back: that's where we're at. As I've been involved in SW discussions on the internet since the days of Listserv, long before I discovered alt.comics.2000AD, it's a bit galling to feel I now have to avoid all news and comment on the subject to prevent the red mist descending.
Meanwhile, I've been devouring the rather antiseptic bonus content on the Solo Blu-ray, and doing episodic rewatches - for all its issues, it really is just great fun. Disney could do worse than get Howard, the Kasdans and the rather excellent Bradford Young on to Solo 2 toot-sweet.
I'm really pleased that the Indy film is still a potential, my heart sunk when they delayed it. Fingers well and truly crossed that it still happens with Harrison, not particularly interested without him though.
Have to agree there. I thought KotCS worked well as a happy ending, but I also think TFA and Bladerunner 2049 showed that Ford can still cut a rug. I'm sure we'll have Indy movies in the future starring Pete Davidson or whoever, and I'm sure I couldn't care less, but while we still have the main man we should make hay - Indiana Jones and the Age of Aquarius rather appeals.
Quote from: TordelBack on 29 September, 2018, 10:20:26 AM
Have to agree there. I thought KotCS worked well as a happy ending, but I also think TFA and Bladerunner 2049 showed that Ford can still cut a rug. I'm sure we'll have Indy movies in the future starring Pete Davidson or whoever, and I'm sure I couldn't care less, but while we still have the main man we should make hay - Indiana Jones and the Age of Aquarius rather appeals.
I really thought he was excellent in BR2049, as good a performance as he's ever done.
Indy has eclipsed Star Wars as my number one nerd love (I saw Raiders with a live orchestra the other week, that was great), and the prospect of one more Spielberg/Lucas/Ford film is really exciting.
I'm sure that they can write a great film for old Indy, absolutely no reason why not......so I really hope that the project gets some traction now after the previous worrying announcement that production was being put back for 1 year. Obviously Ford isn't getting any younger, and it would be sad if this was a missed opportunity.
Actually, yeah. I'm being ageist. Ford could still take me in a fight. Karen Allen probably too.
And I'm doing a 10k tomorrow where doubtless I'll be outrun by men and women with 20 years on me.
The right script and staging will do it.
Indiana Jones and the Onset of Arthritis.
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 29 September, 2018, 12:45:14 PM
Indiana Jones and the Onset of Arthritis.
Damn, he's doing well at 76 if that's the case......that got me in my early 40's!
Ouch, sorry to hear that, Sip.
Quote from: TordelBack on 29 September, 2018, 09:10:47 AMImagine if the second post of every thread on here claimed Matt Smith was worse than Hitler, every story since Rebellion took over was shit, the inclusion of Judges Anderson and Giant was a liberal feminazi conspiracy to destroy the white race and we should boycott the comic until Steve McManus comes back
This sounds a bit familiar - wasn't there some kind of rant at Andy Diggle for putting Muslims in a story as protagonists instead of suicidal terrorists or something, back in the early 2000s? I also recall being a bit dubious about the prospect of Rebellion taking over the book around the time one of the comics was doing a game tie-in of some description.
Anyway, this kind of stuff is part and parcel of unfiltered fandom, it's just that negative publicity can be - and is - monetised now. Algorithms will always point you towards something meant to prompt engagement, so not to pass the buck or anything, but it's down to us to be more critical and not reward trolling and clickbait. Installing extensions like Ghostler or Privacy Badger also help a little in defunding clickfarms.
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 29 September, 2018, 02:38:16 PM
Ouch, sorry to hear that, Sip.
Never mind, such is life! Worse things happen at sea etc etc :) though I could have done without it in my drawing hand!
He's definitely having trouble with his legs I think....he looks a little awkward in blade runner at times, but for 76.....the old guy seems to be holding up well!
Quote from: SIP on 29 September, 2018, 03:28:47 PMHe's definitely having trouble with his legs I think....
A
Millenium Falcon door would cripple lesser men.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 29 September, 2018, 02:57:20 PMI also recall being a bit dubious about the prospect of Rebellion taking over the book around the time one of the comics was doing a game tie-in of some description.
Testify! But boys oh boys were we wrong about that one - and the only tie-in of recent years I'd happily see turned into a regular strip.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 September, 2018, 03:35:47 PM
Quote from: SIP on 29 September, 2018, 03:28:47 PMHe's definitely having trouble with his legs I think....
A Millenium Falcon door would cripple lesser men.
Excellent point! And so would a plane crash.....
Sean Connery's age and academic personality/character worked well in The Last Crusade. No reason why Ford can't do the 'older bloke' routine as well...perhaps with slightly more emphasis on using brains rather than brawn? Certainly - include elements of physicality and punch-ups where possible - it's always great to see a guy of Ford's age/health doing his thing!
Case in point about using brains - the ending of KOTCS was woeful. Indy essentially telling everyone, "let's get out of here". Cue running out of temple as it collapses. End. In the next movie would like to see Indy actually using his knowledge of archaeology to save the day (see ROTLA and TLC - closing of eyes, solving of Grail puzzles, etc.).
Next movie really needs to be 100% stand-alone. No reprising characters, no family story arcs. No Easter eggs and minimal fanboy nods/winks to the audience. See Temple of Doom - much maligned in the old days - but my clear favourite of all four Indy movies. The opening musical number/fight, Short Round, the 'spike sequence', REAL rope-bridge shenanigans, Indy being zombified - and coming 'back to life' at the last moment - real emotion between SR and Indy. Awesome stuff. It had the 'freshness' of something like the 'Flash Gordon' movie. Would be great if Spielberg/Lucas can look outside the box for the next movie...
I love Temple Of Doom. My relationship with it is much like my relationship with Return of the Jedi.....I can appreciate that Empire is the better film, but I'm more attached to Jedi. I appreciate Raiders is the better film.....but I have a real attachment to Temple of Doom. I've never understood why people rate is so harshly, it's non stop fun.
'Course Connery was 57 when he made Last Crusade, and Ford is 76... But I take the point!
Not sure running away from a collapsing Akator is much less archaeological than running away from a collapsing Canyon of the Crescent Moon, or indeed racing a mine carriage out of the mines of Pankot Palace to be rescued by the British army, and his insight at the climax of Raiders seems rather more Sunday School than Kathleen Kenyon (not to imply it isn't the perfect end to a perfect film) . Despite this, I think our hopes for Indy V are broadly similar!
I guess it all depends on whether Disney has long term plans for the character. If they are looking to kick off a new series of action adventure films, then "old man thinks" might not be what they are after. I would be more than happy with it (in fact in film prospects, this is what I'm looking forward to most of any future films), but they may want to shoot for a new generation of fans, much like their approach to Star Wars.
Fingers are crossed that the old man thinks film happens first.
Thinking off the top of my head and I only saw the Crystal skull fillum once on a plane but...
Wasn't 'that' potentially a set-up for moving forward with (#actualcannibal) Shia TheBeef moving into the action role for Harrison?
Of course, if the studio 'had' planned that then they have waited a long time to follow-up on it.
Was Crystal Skull the one with the fridge? If so, I also saw some of it on a plane. I may have stopped watching at that bit.
Quote from: SIP on 01 October, 2018, 08:49:40 AM
I love Temple Of Doom. My relationship with it is much like my relationship with Return of the Jedi.....I can appreciate that Empire is the better film, but I'm more attached to Jedi. I appreciate Raiders is the better film.....but I have a real attachment to Temple of Doom. I've never understood why people rate is so harshly, it's non stop fun.
I'm in the same boat re: Temple of Doom. I know Raiders is objectively a better film, but ToD is the one we grew up with on video (taped off TV, obvs*) so it's the one I'll always have the most affection for. Agree that people are way too harsh on it - Last Crusade is far sillier, especially at the end.
*Edited for TV. I think I must have been in my late teens before I saw an uncut version, and was genuinely shocked to see
actual hearts being ripped out, though it did make a lot more sense in retrospect - until then I could never figure out why all the characters were so scared of Mola Ram scratching their chests with his fingernails.
interesting findings if true
http://www.darkhorizons.com/russian-bots-propagated-last-jedi-hate/
Artificially maximising the visibility of negative comments from social regressives is something that has been provably shown to be a marketing tactic by Western media companies, and it's far more likely that Disney hired troll farms themselves in order to get the online left - predominantly young and active on social media - to deliberately adopt a stance in defence of Disney's product.
But yeah, sure: Vladimir Putin is undermining NATO by planting bad reviews of a film about gay space robots - that sounds much more plausible.
Whether there's any truth in it or not, and I'm abstaining from passing opinion, that particular article would have been better off steering clear of its closing comments on IMDB ( look at the user reviews on that site) or rotten tomatoes (where it quotes the critics view of 91%, not the user reviews closer to 40%).
Probably only time will tell how popular it all is.
I can see one angry ranting mob screaming on YouTube that Disney paid for this and it's another PR exercise, and I can see the other angry ranting mob screaming back as a vindication of what they love. I'm avoiding YouTube.
I try to take all online opinion with a pinch of salt now as it's become almost impossible to distinguish from real comment, fake comment and paid-for comment. The relentless hate bombardments really wear you out.
I will just rely on "watch it if it interests me" and "did I like it or not".
Quote from: Professor Bear on 02 October, 2018, 01:49:28 PM
Artificially maximising the visibility of negative comments from social regressives is something that has been provably shown to be a marketing tactic by Western media companies, and it's far more likely that Disney hired troll farms themselves in order to get the online left - predominantly young and active on social media - to deliberately adopt a stance in defence of Disney's product.
I like the way you're thinking, but did Disney really
need to do that? Was SW really that much of a busted flush? Isn't it more likely to be just one more minor front in the same socially divisive campaign we've been living through since at least the Zoe Quinn affair?
Also, I don't think that article represents the paper very well - it's a very tight piece of analysis about a very specific group of pro- and anti-Johnson tweets. Worth a read.
It's not that Disney needed to do it defensively so much as it's just how things are now done for tentpole US blockbusters - though throwing shade at Nazis has rarely been a high-risk marketing strategy.
Social manipulation has been with us for a very long time. By fermenting binary discussions about popular but essentially irrelevant topics, in this case Star Wars, attention is attracted away from more basic and important questions. It's part of a wider strategy of distraction, illusion and simulacra.
Binary arguments abound; left or right, right or wrong, good or bad, conventional or alternative, for or against, male or female, belief or disbelief, rich or poor, in or out. Nested within each, more binaries; this party or that party, this ruler or that ruler, democracy or fascism, gay or straight, black or white, GB or EUGB. And, again, nested binaries in each. All with one purpose - to maintain the status quo by limiting discourse through all aspects of society.
But it's not 100% effective, of course, because most of us know that many of the binaries presented to us are invalid or make no sense. The binary argument is so pervasive, however, that we are all effected by it in some way. And when we overcome a binary argument, as most here have over this Star Wars question, we feel - rightly - that we have won a small intellectual victory. I think most people here are good at winning these victories, are good at seeing through a lot of binary arguments.
One only has to look at how binary arguments are foisted wholesale on the public by politicians and the msm to understand how human tribalism is being manipulated and why so many people actually believe in the validity of us and them, me and you, mine or yours, love or hate.
I think, or rather I believe, that more and more people are beginning to see through the binary argument, whether it be about Brexit or Star Wars, and thinking for themselves rather than having to choose between two or three presented options. I find this a very hopeful sign.
Star Wars may help to shape a better future for us all. Live long and... Oh shit, my preferences are showing.
Weirdly, Leia's chief political enemies in the Sequels are apparently called "centrists", who resisted her political maneuvering while insisting that Leia and her Rebels were just as bad as the First Order. HA HA what a wacky and outlandish concept this centrism is - where the far right is seen as equivalent to not wanting planets to blow up etc
In the surprisingly enjoyable (current c4non) novel Bloodline, which deals with the political situation between VI and VII, the 'Centrist' faction are those who want strong centralised authority in the Republic. So not directly comparable to Chuka Umunna.
Sorry if re-posting...but I'm eschewing ep 9...as the last Jedi was a joke.
The trailer is out : https://www.newsarama.com/44740-first-star-wars-trailer.html (https://www.newsarama.com/44740-first-star-wars-trailer.html)
Title: [spoiler]The Rise of Skywalker[/spoiler]
I worry that the good work of Last Jedi might get undone here... which will mean I'll turn into the whining fanboy that the whining fanboys became over Last Jedi.... damn this is all going to get a bit tricky isn't it!
My ultimate view (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uMGN1ayqBc) on the last one and the next one.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 12 April, 2019, 09:08:56 PM
I worry that the good work of Last Jedi might get undone here... which will mean I'll turn into the whining fanboy that the whining fanboys became over Last Jedi.... damn this is all going to get a bit tricky isn't it!
My thoughts exactly.
I'm not a Star Wars guy. I actually have quiet a bit of disdain for it. But I loved TLJ and simply hope the work that movie set up isn't made to go to waste here.
I am not that big a Star Wars person either, but I thought TLJ was one of the worst films I'd seen in ages, even managing to ruin what was actually good about the fairly rubbish TFA, so anything that screws it over is fine by me. That said, I imagine IX will be the usual crappy Abrams rehash and reupholstering job. (As a point of reference for my dubious tastes, I finally saw Solo recently and thought that, despite its flaws, it was easily the best SW film since RotJ.)
Not only the Death Star but they're even bringing out the sports-day medals.
(https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/iAioATQ7QfrkLSCPTxhqLM.jpg)
Lets wait and see, the Disney Star Wars movies have been quite average (except for Rogue One).
Ignoring everything else, that's a terrible title.
Isn't Kylo Ren technically speaking a Skywalker since he's Leia's son and Luke's nephew? I thought the Last Jedi had a tough task with effectively destroying the Star Wars old guard while consolidating the new ones and understandably a lot of people didn't like that idea. I've read in some Media outlets that the makers of TLJ junked JJ Abrams original script which may have led to some disconnect between the two films. Let's hope they're back on track for the final instalment it seems the dreaded Emporer Palpatine survived his apparent demise in ST: ROTJ or his ghostly spirit has. 'Sith happens' so I've heard.
Quote from: hippynumber1 on 13 April, 2019, 07:57:48 AM
Ignoring everything else, that's a terrible title.
Yes the title sounds like a rehash of previous titles.
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 13 April, 2019, 10:03:31 AM
Isn't Kylo Ren technically speaking a Skywalker since he's Leia's son and Luke's nephew?
Yes Kylo Ren is in a matter of speaking a Skywalker. So he might succumb to the light-side of the force and the Skywalker name can rise again or something like that
Quote from: Greg M. on 12 April, 2019, 10:33:06 PM
I finally saw Solo recently and thought that, despite its flaws, it was easily the best SW film since RotJ.)
Aye, now that it has finally made it to Sky I give it a shot. It's actually not all that bad, is it. Not perfect but passable enough.
One thing that does confuse me though about the trailer, it looks like a crashed Death Star in the ocean at one point. Yet in New Hope and ROTJ both Death Stars were completely vaporised. Or am I just being really pedantic and need to remember that it is just a film?
Quote from: hippynumber1 on 13 April, 2019, 07:57:48 AM
Ignoring everything else, that's a terrible title.
JJA strikes again. Clearly the aim was something that evoked
Return Of or
Revenge Of so as predicted they're already rolling back from that whole "a clean break with the past" theme that ran through TLJ.
Listen...I'm a fool but I cannot ( in all conscience) pay money to watch this after the travesty and (IMHO)_ utter disater that was the TLJ ...if y0ou liked it rfair enough ( I liked thq
H
U
A friend acquaintance insisted I had to watch this teaser trailer.
Which I thought was odd.
So I looked it up on youtube.
The second result (the first result being the actual thing) claimed to reveal 67 easter eggs hidden in this 2 minute montage of finished footage.
Which I thought was peculiar.
Didn't bother in the end, I think Star Wars has become something just for degenerates, deviants and communists.
Fuck your shitty toy robots film about space Marxists, Clone Wars season 7 is coming out.
Werner Herzog just told me the Star Wars galaxy is now fucked.
One subscription for Disney+, please.
I'm not quite sure what's the most tedious, toxic fandom or toxic non-fandom?
Trailer got me very buzzed, in a way that the trailers for the last bunch didn't. I've loved the films, but for some reason the trailers just didn't spark the excitement until this one! Wasn't quite prepared for how happy I'd be to see Lando (let out a little gasp) and to see Leia again (let out a larger gasp).
Should be fantastic, they haven't really put a foot wrong for me yet with these episodes (although Rogue One is still my favourite of the Disney crop).
The Jedi Fallen Order game trailer that also released at the weekend was great too, so hyped for that as well!
Quote from: Keef Monkey on 15 April, 2019, 11:09:58 AM
Trailer got me very buzzed, in a way that the trailers for the last bunch didn't. I've loved the films, but for some reason the trailers just didn't spark the excitement until this one! Wasn't quite prepared for how happy I'd be to see Lando (let out a little gasp) and to see Leia again (let out a larger gasp).
Should be fantastic, they haven't really put a foot wrong for me yet with these episodes (although Rogue One is still my favourite of the Disney crop).
The Jedi Fallen Order game trailer that also released at the weekend was great too, so hyped for that as well!
Also a trailer for The Mandalorian was shown (the trailer is not on general release, sadly, so only those at Celebration got to see it). There have been more pictures from the series released though. Plus we now know when it'll be set - some time between VI and VII.
Quote from: sheridan on 15 April, 2019, 11:25:13 AM
Also a trailer for The Mandalorian was shown (the trailer is not on general release, sadly, so only those at Celebration got to see it).
There's a ShakyCam™ phone recording of it floating around — it's mostly behind-the-scenes stuff and concept art but it looks mighty fine already. You might find the phone recording here (https://youtu.be/kOqyaFTR1cA) if Lucasfilm/Disney hasn't had it taken down yet...!
Ep 9 trailer got me seriously hyped, especially the last few seconds. Yup, I'm on-board.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 15 April, 2019, 11:44:06 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 15 April, 2019, 11:25:13 AM
Also a trailer for The Mandalorian was shown (the trailer is not on general release, sadly, so only those at Celebration got to see it).
There's a ShakyCam™ phone recording of it floating around — it's mostly behind-the-scenes stuff and concept art but it looks mighty fine already. You might find the phone recording here (https://youtu.be/kOqyaFTR1cA) if Lucasfilm/Disney hasn't had it taken down yet...!
Looks cool!
I think they don't know what Easter Egg means. But they know exactly what clickbait means.
I liked the trailer - looks fun. Even though it had no Porgs.
But I am still lucky enough to be able to just watch and enjoy Star Wars without worrying too much.
About the only thing I can't summon enthusiasm for, despite the charismatic Pedro being on-board, is The Mandalorian. Bounty hunters and crime bosses was not an element of SW I cared for. Boba Fett is over-rated.
But I couldn't summon enthusiasm for SOLO but I right enjoyed that.
For me it was a case that the trailers were great but the movies just did not do it for me (the exception was Rogue One just loved it).
I am at a cross-road, if this is another meh Star Wars movie then I will not see the next one it in the cinemas but I will then wait for the Blu-Ray to arrive.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 15 April, 2019, 11:44:06 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 15 April, 2019, 11:25:13 AM
Also a trailer for The Mandalorian was shown (the trailer is not on general release, sadly, so only those at Celebration got to see it).
There's a ShakyCam™ phone recording of it floating around — it's mostly behind-the-scenes stuff and concept art but it looks mighty fine already. You might find the phone recording here (https://youtu.be/kOqyaFTR1cA) if Lucasfilm/Disney hasn't had it taken down yet...!
There's also some ShakyCam™ phone footage of the five minute preview they showed and it looks very promising indeed! It gave me a real Strontium Dog vibe!
Quote from: Pete Wells on 15 April, 2019, 03:55:38 PM
There's also some ShakyCam™ phone footage of the five minute preview they showed and it looks very promising indeed! It gave me a real Strontium Dog vibe!
You're not wrong. (https://youtu.be/l0dhPm3vbyE) :-)
Proof that Star Wars fans will whoop, cheer and holler for anything at all except new Star Wars films.
I'm a bit amazed how little I thought about the teaser for ep 9. Regardless, hope it's good. Definitely gonna watch it (even if I'm not the biggest fan of either 7 o 8).
The Mandalorian looks really cool. Can't wait to watch that! :)
Quote from: hippynumber1 on 13 April, 2019, 07:57:48 AM
Ignoring everything else, that's a terrible title.
And
Star Wars Episode IX: Triumph of the Whills would've tied the saga up so well.
(http://i0.wp.com/echenry.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/triumph-of-the-will.jpg)
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 15 April, 2019, 04:07:19 PM
Quote from: Pete Wells on 15 April, 2019, 03:55:38 PM
There's also some ShakyCam™ phone footage of the five minute preview they showed and it looks very promising indeed! It gave me a real Strontium Dog vibe!
You're not wrong. (https://youtu.be/l0dhPm3vbyE) :-)
Stylish, but I'm thinking if it's going to hold that interest it's going to have to do a
lot better than 5 minutes of Holiday Special Boba - Mos Eile Arís - Salacious Crumb PETA commercial - Jabba's Eye Thingie - Gonk Gonk Gonk - Yet More Stormtroopers - Werner Herzog... wait, what, WERNER HERZOG?!? Damnit I thought I was out and they pulled me back in. And Taika Waititi to look forwards to. Utter bastards.
As to the other thing, like literally every SW title since Return of the Jedi I thought 'Rise of Skywalker' was utterly awful (I can actually remember where I was when I first heard about Attack of the Clones, now that was a howler). Then I rolled it about in my head a bit and realised it was perfectly fine. The trailer, while having some good bits (Rey's leap, Poe and Finn in action together), reinforced my fear that LFL are rolling back on everything and ignoring the shiny blank canvas Johnson handed them. I still hope that's not the case, and while Palps is probably my favourite character across the first 6 movies, I really didn't need to hear from him again. And as for a 5th film with a quest involving a superweapon, even the remains of one... no thanks. But we'll see.
Now go, I wish to be alone with the Clone Wars S7 trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx9CMSPMfRs).
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 April, 2019, 04:24:29 PM
(I can actually remember where I was when I first heard about Attack of the Clones, now that was a howler)
Thankfully that moment was captured for posterity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwL8wlBMflA
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 16 April, 2019, 04:40:18 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 April, 2019, 04:24:29 PM
(I can actually remember where I was when I first heard about Attack of the Clones, now that was a howler)
Thankfully that moment was captured for posterity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwL8wlBMflA
God I've aged hideously in 18 years. Although to be fair the missus hasn't done much better.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 13 April, 2019, 12:16:26 PM
Quote from: hippynumber1 on 13 April, 2019, 07:57:48 AM
Ignoring everything else, that's a terrible title.
JJA strikes again. Clearly the aim was something that evoked Return Of or Revenge Of so as predicted they're already rolling back from that whole "a clean break with the past" theme that ran through TLJ.
And so it goes. (https://www.slashfilm.com/j-j-abrams-on-reys-parents/)
Looks like the Star Wars films can't even do exciting trailers any more.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 17 April, 2019, 12:48:53 AM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 13 April, 2019, 12:16:26 PM
Quote from: hippynumber1 on 13 April, 2019, 07:57:48 AM
Ignoring everything else, that's a terrible title.
JJA strikes again. Clearly the aim was something that evoked Return Of or Revenge Of so as predicted they're already rolling back from that whole "a clean break with the past" theme that ran through TLJ.
And so it goes. (https://www.slashfilm.com/j-j-abrams-on-reys-parents/)
I don't think there
was a 'clean break with the past' theme in TLJ: although both Luke and Kylo aspired to one, they were both completely frustrated in their aims.
Luke explains that both he and Han will always be with Kylo, Rey carts off the Sacred Texts with Yoda's connivance and (the bits of) Anakin's sabre, Luke clarifies that the Jedi Order is far from finished, and the rebellion reborn. Indeed, a Skywalker becomes the central villain for the first time. The film leaves a blank canvas in the sense that the story could go anywhere from there, but there is no escape from the past.
Rey No-One is a great idea (the best one, IMHO), but it doesn't have to be the final one. And even then, did we really believe Kylo when he says that her parents were drunks that sold her to Plutt? Did we really believe what a Dark Side mirror showed her?
My concern still lies with Abrams. He is the very last guy I'd have asked to wrap something up in a satisfying manner.
It's 1981. It's always been 1981.
(https://i.imgur.com/lVMR8ok.jpg)
http://www.trektales.com/se22_45-60.pdf
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 April, 2019, 11:50:36 AM
My concern still lies with Abrams. He is the very last guy I'd have asked to wrap something up in a satisfying manner.
Maybe it will turn out that the franchise did in fact crash at the start of Phantom Menace and they are all stuck in purgatory (Endor) ...
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 April, 2019, 11:50:36 AM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 17 April, 2019, 12:48:53 AM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 13 April, 2019, 12:16:26 PM
JJA strikes again. Clearly the aim was something that evoked Return Of or Revenge Of so as predicted they're already rolling back from that whole "a clean break with the past" theme that ran through TLJ.
And so it goes. (https://www.slashfilm.com/j-j-abrams-on-reys-parents/)
I don't think there was a 'clean break with the past' theme in TLJ: although both Luke and Kylo aspired to one, they were both completely frustrated in their aims.
Whatever we may think of the story so far and the execution – figuratively and literally – of legacy characters, nothing in that title suggests a roll-back or ret-con. At least from a superficial reading it feels like a genuine continuation of the last act of TLJ which set-up TROS and indicates a merging of what came before in TFA and TLJ – which is precisely what the last film should logically be, a
synthesis. It's been clear since the end of TLJ what direction Episode IX was, or at least should be, going in for the trilogy to work at all at this stage of the game.
Luke declared the Rebellion is reborn, and he'll not be the last Jedi, and the legend of Crait reached Broomkid and the Back-street Boys who are the first stirrings of the what I assume is the
rise of the Skywalker legacy across the galaxy. It might not be the literal
resurrection of Luke some fans want but it makes sense, if it happens that way.
What raises alarm bells for me is the temptation for fan-service with Abrams & co. going back to the bizarro world of Prequel era notions of Skywalker parentage and the murky virgin birth lore with Palpatine rubbing his loins at a distance (if we're really lucky they'll have had a moment of divine inspiration and managed to make it work, even if only in the moment).
I'm fine with the Death Star/Emperor set-up if it's for flashbacks and explains how his own imperial legacy led to the First Order and why the galaxy is the way it is – context that shouldn't really be a mystery at all and been given in TFA. I don't really want to see him alive. Maybe they'll surprise me with that one given that these are all old Lucas ideas.
It's been clear since TFA that JJA and Kasdan structured the whole thing backwards leaving the explaining to do later or when they'd figured it out. Giving them the benefit of the doubt and the chance there was at least
some vague plan at work, RJ was either told to leave certain things alone or wasn't interested, obligated or too distracted by the task at hand to do more about it.
Of course it could be ringing and blowing all the SW bells and whistles, be entertaining while watching, but not make any reasonable sense at all – like a lot, and some of, the best Star Wars.
No doubt Vader will pop-up again.
I couldn't find the 'youtube gold' thread, but i suppose that this is as good a place as any;
One of the hosts of the incredibly popular and successfull youtube channel/pop culture media empire Collider threw an extraordinarily childish and unprofessional on-air wobbly the other day, all because he didn't get invited to the opening of the Star Wars Disneyland attraction, and it's an absolute doozy - literally a 40 year old man throwing a very public tantrum because he didn't get to go to Disneyland while other, less popular (so in his mind less deserving) pop culture reporters did:
https://youtu.be/X7vSb7zWoB8 (https://youtu.be/X7vSb7zWoB8)
Things then get even more excruciating as he goes on to have a blazing row with his producer after he, in a sulk, refuses to cover the park opening on the show he is hosting and even threatens to walk off:
https://youtu.be/S0c2yStVC3A (https://youtu.be/S0c2yStVC3A)
Wow. The cringe is strong in that one.
2 other reps from Collider were invited because they had long established relationships with Shizney, which he didn't, and in the end he said he couldn't go anyway.
RLM are going to have a field day with this...
Quote from: sheridan on 06 June, 2019, 11:40:58 AM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 06 June, 2019, 10:41:57 AM
RLM are going to have a field day with this...
RLM?
Red Letter Media, a comedy channel. They have a parody show of Collider call the Nerd Show.
Brother that is one slow-motion implosion! Personally I'm toying with the idea of selling a kidney/child/Jaina Solo 3 3/4" Figure to finance a trip to Galaxy's Edge. It looks fantastic.
RED LETTER MEDIA PREDICTION VIDEOS ARE A BIGGER DISAPPOINTMENT THAN MY SON (https://youtu.be/gzeOrA2in1c)
Good stuff, that. The lads are generally better - and funnier - when they aren't trying to be full-on hilarious. One of their main guesses is bang-on for my own speculations, their preferred one better not be true or I may have to become one of those internet people. You know the ones. And I wouldn't rule it our, since the end of Rebels sowed seeds for that direction.
Their idea about [spoiler]Luke the White[/spoiler] is the most plausible, since the Annotated Screenplays detail exactly that as the original ending for Return of the Jedi with [spoiler]Ghost Obi-Wan[/spoiler] in the Luke role, so they can blame George/take credit for fulfilling his concept and tying up the "Strike me down, and I will become more powerful..." loose-end-if-you-take-it-literally-rather-than-metaphorically.
Just. Let Reys. Parents. Be nobodies.
I hate it when extended universe stuff ties itself in knots to make everyone important somehow.
Quote from: TordelBack on 15 July, 2019, 06:23:51 PM
... their preferred (speculation) better not be true
Oh come on, Rey sneaking around the original Death Star with a trilby and walkie-talkie, shutting down the power to the Big Laser while Young Han distracts the stormtroopers by playing
Johnny B Goode would be great.
Somewhere in this or the other most recent
STWars thread, someone
* remarks that the obvious hack sci-fi cliche the Skywalkerverse hasn't done so far is [spoiler]time travel[/spoiler] and I broadly agree with Rich's assertion that there's no way for Disney to take the story forward
**In the Youtube comments, which nobody should ever read unless they have an ironic appreciation of racism, one whip suggests Rey [spoiler]decides to stay in the past, changes her name, and gives (virgin) birth to Anakin Skywalker. Although it would make more (and also less) sense if she scratched that bad boy itch and Ben Solo is his own Great Grandpa[/spoiler]
**** Probably yourself or Soapy Joe, let's face it.
** As a big mainstream proposition, which is why they paid $4 billion for this pig's ear. Obviously, the good people of this board would be delighted if Disney continued to splurge hundreds of millions on films where Oscar Isaac and Finn are mismatched space pirate buddies who have to smuggle 400 cases of blue milk from Coruscant to Jakku in 28 hours for Big Jabba Jr and Little Jabba Jr, while pursued by Captain Buford T Phasma and her bumbling son, but maybe not the much larger section of the paying audience who think Ewoks are baby Wookiees.
*** The Twilight Zone, Tharg's Future Shocks, and every sci-fi short story writer ever could sue Disney for combining and ripping off their [spoiler]WHAT IF YOU WENT BACK IN TIME AND SHAGGED YOUR GRANNY/KILLED HITLER plots. It'd be very Disney 2019 to put an abortion dilemma at the heart of a big pop movie[/spoiler]
If you think Disney SW hasn't covered [spoiler]time travel[/spoiler] yet, you've missed the last chunk of canonical Rebels. Kylo Ren prototype Jacen Solo also [spoiler]time-travelled[/spoiler] in the EU (now Legends) books.
Quote from: TordelBack on 15 July, 2019, 07:26:40 PM
Quote from: Frank on 15 July, 2019, 07:15:12 PM
... there's no way for Disney to take the story forward (as) a big mainstream proposition, which is why they paid $4 billion for this pig's ear. Obviously, the good people of this board would be delighted if Disney continued to splurge hundreds of millions on films where Oscar Isaac and Finn are mismatched space pirate buddies who have to smuggle 400 cases of blue milk from Coruscant to Jakku in 28 hours for Big Jabba Jr and Little Jabba Jr, while pursued by Captain Buford T Phasma and her bumbling son, but maybe not the much larger section of the paying audience who think Ewoks are baby Wookiees.
If you think Disney SW hasn't covered [spoiler]time travel[/spoiler] yet, you've missed the last chunk of canonical Rebels. Kylo Ren prototype Jacen Solo also [spoiler]time-travelled[/spoiler] in the EU (now Legends) books.
See!
I wish these youtubers had decent editors. I tend to shy away from anything over the twenty minute mark. The amount of videos where you think "Why would I spend 60 minutes listening to a critique of a film that's only 100 minutes long?" is staggering.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 15 July, 2019, 09:52:56 PM
I wish these youtubers had decent editors. I tend to shy away from anything over the twenty minute mark. The amount of videos where you think "Why would I spend 60 minutes listening to a critique of a film that's only 100 minutes long?" is staggering.
tl;dr
It says a lot about the current state of Star Wars films and fandom that the self-aware RLM lads are regurgitating the same old theories and rumours as every other youtube channel for the past year or so, although with infinitely more wit and sense.
They're proabably still pulling from old Lucas sequel plans where Palpatine exists as a jar of old midi-chlorians or something.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 15 July, 2019, 09:52:56 PMI wish these youtubers had decent editors. I tend to shy away from anything over the twenty minute mark. The amount of videos where you think "Why would I spend 60 minutes listening to a critique of a film that's only 100 minutes long?" is staggering.
Most podcasts are the same. Quite why people feel the need to bang on for so long, I don't know. The bulk of those I've listened to could be condensed into half the time or less with some decent editing.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 16 July, 2019, 01:27:14 AM
They're proabably still pulling from old Lucas sequel plans where Palpatine exists as a jar of old midi-chlorians or something.
There's really no plot with a resurrected Palpatine that's worse than any other. Even the novels and comics understood that, once the initially brilliant Dark Empire had sunk into ghastly incoherent repetition, they ditched the idea for good.
It's beyond me how a sequel trilogy that should have moved us on, and with TLJ looked like it actually might have done that, apparently ends up regurgitating the Emperor, the Sith, the bloody Death Star and probably Luke *again.* Can't we just have Rey, Kylo & Co with some exciting space battles, monsters, lightsabres, mystic forces, explosions, moral choices, witty banter, frustrated romance, destinies fulfilled, sacrifice and redemption, all against a background of struggle against monolithic industrialised evil etc. Y'know, Star Wars, but with different characters and perils.
Kerriste, can't we just have Solo 2?
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 July, 2019, 11:22:32 AM
Can't we just have Rey, Kylo & Co with some exciting space battles, monsters, lightsabres, mystic forces, explosions, moral choices, witty banter, frustrated romance, destinies fulfilled, sacrifice and redemption, all against a background of struggle against monolithic industrialised evil etc. Y'know, Star Wars, but with different characters and perils.
You could, but they're scared it wouldn't make as much money.
I don't follow this stuff at all, so the news that Lucasfilm had hired the guy who wrote
Batman vs Superman and
Justice league to man the typewriter hit me round the head like a gaffi stick.
Someone thought the ideal choices to put the cap on their trilogy were the guy responsible for how
Lost ended and the wordsmith behind
MARTHA? WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?!
Yeah, well that's not as bad as letting the men who wrote X-men origins Wolverine write the plot for Game of Thrones after they ran out of book...
Quote from: Frank on 16 July, 2019, 01:15:37 PM
You could, but they're scared it wouldn't make as much money.
The infuriating thing about all this is that it looks like the whole project may have, in the end, been twisted back to the over-familiar by the whining of the wankers who effectively boycotted the surprisingly good
Solo. FFS Disney, ignore the dead-end represented by those wastes of bandwidth and concentrate on winning new audiences.
'Course I could be completely wrong and this might be the film where Poe and Lando give into their devil-may-care intergenerational attraction under the disapproving eye of the Falcon's navi-computer, while Finn cucks Kylo so hard he does a Luke and vanishes into the dark side. In fact
please let me be wrong: if ya gotta go, go with a bang.
Oh, and Chris Terrio? Seriously?
RLM suggest with a bit more canniness that JJA won't do the immediately obvious Palpy reveal and instead go for something nebulous about "the Emperor's essence" rather than a Force ghost or something, which I think rings true, possibly culminating in yet another Face Your Fears sequence ala Empire and TLJ.
A personal theory: some of what's in the trailer is proprietary footage shot for the trailer and isn't in the film at all.
Of that we can be sure.
As to 'the Emperor's essence', this concept of lingering power can be read as being present in TFA in the form of Kylo's veneration of Vader's helmet* and hunger for Anakin's lightsabre - the new-canon books and comics also emphasise a general search for relics of the dark side. But the wheeling out of the ageless McDiarmid at least suggests something more than an evil battery pack.
If there isn't a physical duel between Rey and Ben while Luke and Sheev clash in spirit form around them I'll be very surprised. In early drafts of RotJ it's Obi-Wan's forceghost that defends Luke from Palpatine, and SW never wasted a single idea or image from that early material.
*if the superlaser dish is on Endor, then Kylo may already been there to retrievecthe helmet. However, given JJ's complete disinterest in the distance between star systems, my guess is it's somewhere else entirely.
Yeah, the residual haunting of relics/Death Star balloon has been inflated and floated by comics and fanlords for a while, as well as the unused ending of
Revenge of the Jedi that was rewritten for good reason: apart from being naff it
undercut the sense of Luke having an authentic achievement in thinking differently where the old-guard failed
–it may yet undercut Rey in IX or Vader in VI– and Kenobi-ghost saving Anakin-ghost from drowning in lava a literal step too far.
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 July, 2019, 11:22:32 AMIt's beyond me how a sequel trilogy that should have moved us on, and with TLJ looked like it actually might have done that
Depending on where in the story this Emperor plot thing comes into play, whatever multiple choice option it it actually is, there's an outside possiblity it might not be anything other than another JJA red-herring. JJA probably intends to fill-in the gaps of his story with a lot more flashbacks as a consequence of his backwards approach that never fully sets-up its stall from the beginning: the establishing of which would allow ideas from the more level ground in TLJ to expand and progress rather than the story always trying to catch-up with the plot. I don't know why it had to become exclusively Skywalker, rather than just Star Wars, saga.
As to the time-travel thing,
fugeddaboutit. While both the Vader comic and Rebels have claimed creative pissing-rights on that, and in a way that's not complete shite, it would be too convoluted at this late point,
even for JJA, to expound upon.
Between the jigs and the reels it's funny looking back at old interviews, like one from that fella
Richard Marquand on the publicity tour for Return of the Jedi talking about the Sequels in 1983.
(https://i.imgur.com/4E6cRnC.jpg)
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 July, 2019, 05:09:20 PM
Oh, and Chris Terrio? Seriously?
The combination of the WB executive and Zack Snyder is an affliction. Lucasfilm and JJA might not be much better. Hopefully it's more
Argo Terrio and not
Dawn of Justice Terrio.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 16 July, 2019, 10:07:06 AM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 15 July, 2019, 09:52:56 PMI wish these youtubers had decent editors. I tend to shy away from anything over the twenty minute mark. The amount of videos where you think "Why would I spend 60 minutes listening to a critique of a film that's only 100 minutes long?" is staggering.
Most podcasts are the same. Quite why people feel the need to bang on for so long, I don't know. The bulk of those I've listened to could be condensed into half the time or less with some decent editing.
I feel strongly the opposite - podcasts shorter than 25 minutes to me seem almost pointless.
After many years of exploitation and general underhanded fuckery on the part of Youtube, most successful creators are funded by Patreon or similar, and not by Youtube's arbitrary monetisation schemes that only make money for Youtube. People paying the makers of the videos understandably want more content - not less - for their money.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 17 July, 2019, 10:47:51 AM
After many years of exploitation and general underhanded fuckery on the part of Youtube, most successful creators are funded by Patreon or similar, and not by Youtube's arbitrary monetisation schemes that only make money for Youtube. People paying the makers of the videos understandably want more content - not less - for their money.
Robert Evans's recent Youtube takedown - How Youtube Became A Perpetual Nazi Machine (https://www.behindthebastards.com/podcasts/how-youtube-became-a-perpetual-nazi-machine.htm) - made the point that one of the reasons Youtube's algorithm prioritised Alex Jones videos was because they were three or four hours long.
Everyone thinks the algorithm's about the quick bang of getting you to click on that HOW FEMINISM
DESTROYED STAR WARS thumbnail and making you watch five seconds of an ad for Wixx, but it'd much rather keep you glued to your recliner for an entire morning so it can show you 12 different (unskippable) ads every fifteen or twenty minutes.
As such, the algorithm prioritises longer videos over shorter ones, which Youtubers have noticed and responded to accordingly.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 17 July, 2019, 10:47:51 AMPeople paying the makers of the videos understandably want more content - not less - for their money.
Then people are idiots. I want
better content, not for my time to be wasted.
Fredrick Knudsen's Down The Rabbit Hole is one of the best series of Youtube, and he only publishes one episode every 2 months, and makes about £4200 on patreon in that time. The fact his videos are equal if not superior to most Netflix documentaries is why people are happy to support him in spite of relatively low output.
Youtubes business model supports quantity over quality, something most quality creatives can't or won't provide. Youtube execs can fuck off.
Quote from: radiator on 17 July, 2019, 02:30:37 AM
I feel strongly the opposite - podcasts shorter than 25 minutes to me seem almost pointless.
Yup. 60-90 mins is the sweet spot for me, since that's the length of my average drive, train commute or walk. Farting about changing episodes on the hoof irritates me, unless there's a story told through an episodic structure (Serial, Polybius Conspiracy) or a really focused weekly topic that gets done (Motherfocloir). Should be said that my favourite pods are either rambling interviews which often can't be long enough (Adam Buxton) or podcasts broken into recurring segments (Grognard Files).
If we're talking about endless to-and-fro between regular presenters, or some spode wittering on solo about his hobby horse, definitely less is more, but then I tend not to go back to those o es.
YouTube OTOH, dear lord keep 'em short - who has the time?
Quite. I'm not specifically against a podcast going on for an hour, but it has to have a reason for doing so. A good example is Infinite Monkey Cage. I'd happily listen to episodes twice as long as the extended podcasts, because they are superb. But so much stuff is just extended to fill the time, rather than edited to be better.
Welcome to Nightvale got it's structure spot on, a half an hour surrealist podcast presented as a 30 minute news bulletin.
Critical Role and The Adventure Zone also curbed their out put perfectly so all could tell an ongoing narrative in sweet bite sized hits.
Quote from: Frank on 17 July, 2019, 11:31:24 AMAs such, the algorithm prioritises longer videos over shorter ones, which Youtubers have noticed and responded to accordingly.
That was true until around 2017 when "the Adpocalypse" introduced automatic demonetisation (removal of advertising) on any videos flagged by content filters or viewer complaints*. Foul-mouthed game streamers were put out of business overnight and since then a great many creators have taken their eggs out of the YT basket to create content according to Patreon feedback rather than the YT algorithm, premiering videos directly to backers and only later using YT as a hosting platform.
I have no doubt that some of the monolithic YT channels like Pewdiwpie still make bank somehow (because of course the right wing channels still make money), but most serious content creators are no longer beholden to the site or its preferences**. And, you know, they're actually making money and growing their audiences, so obviously "they're too long and people who like longer vids are stupid" are highly subjective takes.
* Videos discussing LGBTQ issues also seem to get disproportionately flagged for demonetisation, while left wing channels are constantly targeted in "mass flagging" campaigns by alt-right channels to not only demonetise videos, but to get Youtube to remove them from the site entirely.
** laughably, Youtube has even created its own union to tempt younger and left-leaning creators back into the fold.
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 July, 2019, 01:20:46 PM
Quote from: radiator on 17 July, 2019, 02:30:37 AM
I feel strongly the opposite - podcasts shorter than 25 minutes to me seem almost pointless.
Yup. 60-90 mins is the sweet spot for me, since that's the length of my average drive, train commute or walk. Farting about changing episodes on the hoof irritates me, unless there's a story told through an episodic structure (Serial, Polybius Conspiracy) or a really focused weekly topic that gets done (Motherfocloir). Should be said that my favourite pods are either rambling interviews which often can't be long enough (Adam Buxton) or podcasts broken into recurring segments (Grognard Files).
If we're talking about endless to-and-fro between regular presenters, or some spode wittering on solo about his hobby horse, definitely less is more, but then I tend not to go back to those o es.
YouTube OTOH, dear lord keep 'em short - who has the time?
I'm
really not a fan of the recent proliferation of corporate, ultra-slickly produced podcasts, usually 25mins in length with a good 5 mins of that being ads. To me they are the exact opposite of what appeals to me about the medium.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 July, 2019, 11:34:58 AM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 17 July, 2019, 10:47:51 AMPeople paying the makers of the videos understandably want more content - not less - for their money.
Then people are idiots. I want better content, not for my time to be wasted.
Unless there's a good reason for it, I like podcasts to be less than an hour in length, so that I can listen to them during lunch hour. Some of the longer podcasts that I actually like I've fallen well behind on as I don't have the spare two or three hours to listen to them.
I love a bit of thread drift.
I think I'm going to stick to just the trailers in the build up to this. I pretty much did that for LAST JEDI and that kept it really fresh for me.
Especially as the bits I moaned about ("Those bits look like a rehash of Hoth and asteroid choice") both turned out to be nothing of the sort.
Could this allegation be the real reasoning behind Disney's attempt at repackaging Star Wars? Disney didn't want to share any profits with Star Wars original creator George Lucas. By creating new characters, owned entirely by Disney to replace the originals ones they cut out any payment to him. Does seem a bit too conspiratorial to my eye but for profits, we all know Capitalism would sell its soul. Your soul, also. Well, follow the money as Deep Throat said.
https://youtu.be/XqPgVmndoYY
I'm not going to watch that video, but if Disney's grand plan to detach Star Wars completely from George Lucas involves spending hundreds of millions on three movies that feature the original cast, I would say they're off to a bad start.
I find this conspiracy a little lacking. George Lucas was paid and owns 37.1 million Disney shares, or 2.1% of the company, making him the second largest non-institutional shareholder behind the Steve Jobs estate, so he gets a huge amount of money anyway from the stock-earnings of all Disney owned properties. At the time of sale Lucas's Disney shares were worth $1.9billion, giving the deal a total value of $4.1 billion since he took the rest as money.
In 2015 the shares he received were worth $4.1 billion, giving the Lucas film deal a total value of approximately $6.3 billion.
If George is still receiving a cut of Lucasfilm/Star Wars, I doubt it's significant enough for Disney not to pay him, and they wouldn't have planned Han Solo and Boba Fett films if they wanted to completely decouple Star Wars earning potential from the previous owner. Whatever future Star Wars has Darth Vader & Co. will forever be part of the content and the merch. Vader and the Millenium Falcon are now 'park rides'.
Joe gets in there ahead of me with a much more fleshed-out response. Mine was going to be:" Messa thinkin 4 billioni buysa themsa the right to crash da boas's hedgibber".
I think the Mandalorian trailer should be out today.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECqQSkWX4AABdMC?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
I watched it. Interesting! His ship has quite a Serenity vibe.
I have mixed feelings about the Mandalorian. They're mostly positive: sci-fi westerns and bounty hunters are always a cool concept and can lead to some terrific stories. There's certainly plenty to mine in Star Wars, and I think this will be set in a time period we don't know too much about. (After Endor, but before the First Order gains power, I believe. So plenty of chaos, criminal activity, imperial hangers-on*,etc.)
Then there's part of me that thinks "Your using Boba Fett's toys with another character! Why didn't you just change the time period and..." I guess they have more leeway with a new character, though. They could have gone with a different look, but Mandalorian armour is cool, and we can't really blame them for that.
Nice to see an [spoiler]IG droid[/spoiler] as a side-kick!
* I don't mind seeing the Empire still with a degree of power during this time period. It seems more realistic to me that a Galaxy wide empire wouldn't just cave in once the leader and their new super toy was destroyed.
Disney book-canon has the Empire struggling on as a sometimes-squabbling sometimes-united military force for several (?) years up to the battle of Jakku. After that areas of imperial control still exist within the bounds of treaty, and of course it turns out that this is all basically a front for squirelling away the bulk of their resources in unexplored regions of the galaxy.
New teaser. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDuis7ichwg
Idk. Will watch it. Hope I'll get richly surprised.
That's just not doing it for me at all sadly.
We've killed off those characters you liked and for good measure marketed our movies by painting you as a racist, but you'll come see this, won't you? Ah go on, it's the last one. How bad can it be? If you don't, we'll tell everyone you hate women.
I boycotted Solo (which I fully intended to see at the cinema and ultimately enjoyed when i leeched of friends DVD) because I loathed TLJ (I mean properly Loathed)...not only was I Bored in the cinema but the whole casino thing I felt was an insult to me as a fan.
so I can not pay money for 9...call me a man-boy or an entitled child but there it is.
but the Mandalorian looks good but I will buy on DVD because there are tooooooooo many subscription services as there is and I'm skint as fook because I invest all my spare dosh in buying tables at conventions to promote my books.
Now see, I adore The Last Jedi. It was fresh, it was weird, it's was strangely blunt yet optimistic. It was FUN. Something I'm not getting from this, at all.
TLJ was far from perfect, Leila Poppins, Oliver Twist Force sensitive kids and crackhead Yoda, but it was light years better than Solo.
I found Solo a pretty depressingly redundant affair, Han Solo didn't even behave like Solo, he was a rogue and a scoundrel when we met him in Star Wars, it was only later as his character arc developed that he softened and learnt the importance of lurve and the rebellion.
In Solo there's no way he would of donated all that loot to that nomadic group, he would have just seduced the sexy girl and made off with the money!
A terrible betrayal of the character! :(
Quote from: dweezil2 on 26 August, 2019, 06:28:15 PM
... he was a rogue and a scoundrel when we met him in Star Wars, it was only later as his character arc developed that he softened and learnt the importance of lurve and the rebellion
The film that ends with Han's idealistic young friend guilting him into saving the beautiful princess's rebellion?
I actually thought that mirroring of Han at the end of
Star Wars and his helping mini-Maya Rudolph was the only clever bit of writing in
Solo. *
Like you, I thought
Solo was perfunctory, even if it's much closer to what I'd have said I wanted from a new
Star Wars film if you'd asked me that question any time in the last 37 years.
* I genuinely thought I'd never watch Solo. I was basically tricked into giving it a go by this podcast, which does a pretty good job of arguing its case as a fun, uncomplicated adventure movie, which is exactly what I want from Star Wars: http://www.projectionboothpodcast.com/2019/07/special-report-solo-star-wars-story-2018.html
Quote from: dweezil2 on 26 August, 2019, 06:28:15 PM
I found Solo a pretty depressingly redundant affair
Everything past Return of the Jedi is redundant. But if we have to have new Star Wars films, and apparently we do, then Solo was mostly great fun and had a couple of charismatic leads. Emilia Clarke had more charm in her little finger than the entire casts of Rogue One and TLJ combined. (And I really liked John Boyega in TFA, but by TLJ, he seemed to have had his joie de vivre drained out of him.)
Quote from: Greg M. on 26 August, 2019, 07:23:31 PM
(And I really liked John Boyega in TFA, but by TLJ, he seemed to have had his joie de vivre drained out of him.)
Just gonna drop these here... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E0p0GQCAM8)
...as possible reasons why. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62eCT40iLNk)
Being critiqued for your acting and such is livable, but being set up as part of creepy alt-right conspiracy theories? That's gotta take a tole on your optimism should you be made aware of it (and by all account on Twitter, they all are).
I can't say I'd considered any reasons outside of the film, though you may well be right. I just felt Finn - who was by far the best thing in TFA - seemed to have lost a lot of his charm and likeability as a character by TLJ.
Actually, I realise I'm being unfair on Adam Driver when I suggest there was a lack of charisma in TLJ - I think he does an excellent job with a character whose basic concept I fundamentally disapprove of. He actually manages to transcend what a godawful idea Kylo Ren is and make him compelling and watchable. No mean feat.
Quote from: auxlen on 26 August, 2019, 05:37:41 PMthe Mandalorian looks good but I will buy on DVD because there are tooooooooo many subscription services as there is ...
The whole idea behind Disney+ is to get you to subscribe so content made for the service is likely exclusive to it and only available on it. It's not intended for a physical release as they want to eventually abandon the format, as they all ready have done in some regions.
This is the first trailer that has left me a bit worried I'm not going to like the film. I'm a bit surprised actually. The trailers are usually quite good, even for the films that don't turn out that well. That bit at the end just didn't look right. To me at least.
Right, having externalised that angst nicely, I'm going to park it and wait for the next trailer.
I might just rewatch this trailer a few more times first though. Just to be sure.
You lot claim to be Star Wars fans yet here we are 4 hoursa after this new trailer was first posted and we're still talking about The Last Jedi (brilliant) and Solo (muh) and not the fact that they cut a shot of Boba from RotJ into the Empire sequence in the montage bit at the beginning there.
What is wrong with you folks!?!
Oh and can I just check is that Rey looking all dark sidey at the end there? I assume it is but I'm not 100% sure I'm missing the point?
Quote from: Frank on 26 August, 2019, 07:16:34 PM
Quote from: dweezil2 on 26 August, 2019, 06:28:15 PM
... he was a rogue and a scoundrel when we met him in Star Wars, it was only later as his character arc developed that he softened and learnt the importance of lurve and the rebellion
The film that ends with Han's idealistic young friend guilting him into saving the beautiful princess's rebellion?
I actually thought that mirroring of Han at the end of Star Wars and his helping mini-Maya Rudolph was the only clever bit of writing in Solo. *
Like you, I thought Solo was perfunctory, even if it's much closer to what I'd have said I wanted from a new Star Wars film if you'd asked me that question any time in the last 37 years.
SOLO is probably the most competently written of the Disney Wars flix but feels the most pedestrian in execution, though none of it feels like it's a betrayal of the character. I'd find it harder to believe that Han was born a scoundrel and lived his whole life as one until Luke & Leia showed up. He was obviously someone who became more hardened as he learned to live the pirate life.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 26 August, 2019, 08:44:09 PM
Oh and can I just check is that Rey looking all dark sidey at the end there? I assume it is but I'm not 100% sure I'm missing the point?
Corporate back tracking on the progress Johnson and Co. made with TLJ to produce a safer fan wanky picture to round out the trilogy.
Dark side Rey wooooohhhhhoooo isn't that something?! 'Snooooz'
Quote from: Greg M. on 26 August, 2019, 07:23:31 PM
Quote from: dweezil2 on 26 August, 2019, 06:28:15 PM
I found Solo a pretty depressingly redundant affair
Everything past Return of the Jedi is redundant. But if we have to have new Star Wars films, and apparently we do, then Solo was mostly great fun and had a couple of charismatic leads. Emilia Clarke had more charm in her little finger than the entire casts of Rogue One and TLJ combined. (And I really liked John Boyega in TFA, but by TLJ, he seemed to have had his joie de vivre drained out of him.)
Glad you enjoyed it, but I found the whole thing tedious with flat direction and performances.
Far too many eye rolling moments, including how Solo got his name!
I don't need beloved characters like Han Solo to be demystified for me, especially in such a hamfisted manner, that was the prequel's problem too.
At least TLJ stirred some emotion in me, with the internal conflict that Rey and Kylo were experiencing, my interest level never raised above boredom with Solo.
Excited for this, but going to do my usual and avoid the trailers. I've done it for the last bunch of Star Wars movies and it served me well, I pretty much went into them knowing nothing and with hype at minimal levels, and the hype only really hit me when the titles hit the screen and the music started up. Can't wait.
For those who don't do FB, I cut together a trailer using the same edits (more or less) as the Mandalorian one, but used similar shots from Minty and Strontium Dog...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QygGeNbbbyo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QygGeNbbbyo)
It was quite funny seeing stuff line up...
Quote from: Steve Green on 27 August, 2019, 12:13:32 PM
For those who don't do FB, I cut together a trailer using the same edits (more or less) as the Mandalorian one, but used similar shots from Minty and Strontium Dog...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QygGeNbbbyo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QygGeNbbbyo)
It was quite funny seeing stuff line up...
Clever bugger, aintcha.
Still think SD would make one hell of a Netflix show, and your short is proof of concept.
Cheers,
Yeah, it definitely would.
More feasible than MC:1 on a budget too.
Not inspired by that new trailerette, TBH. As a big fan of TLJ, this felt like an apology for that film, rather than a development from its intriguing ending. But I suppose Abrams was always going to go that way.
The trailer itself seems to be depending on the dubious appeal of IX being yet another conclusion to the OT, rather than the conclusion of the ST itself. See also: Palpatine gazumping Kylo. To which I say 'bah'.
Also, my vote is that Evil Rey is either a vision (cheap), a clone or secret twin (with Rey also being a clone/twin, rescued and hidden on Jakku),. Again, 'bah'.
Also: Solo great fun, I believed in Young Han completely.
Was that a real trailer? I thought it was fan-made...
The fold out double lightsaber bothers me more than it should :|
The fans who loved Last Jedi hate this promo because it undoes Last Jedi and the fans who hated Last Jedi hate this promo because it's too much like Last Jedi:
(https://i.imgur.com/0jhkheq.png?2)
Bloody fans. Who'd be a billionaire studio boss, eh?
Quote from: Apestrife on 27 August, 2019, 06:59:46 PM
The fold out double lightsaber bothers me more than it should :|
I don't mind the concept... but it's something I'd prefer to unfold BEFORE igniting I think. Lightsabers are enough of a H&S nightmare as they are. 😆
I liked the trailer, but I'm easily impressed in some ways. The fact I like all the films, even the films that most fans (at least our generation) consider awful proves this, (although Phantom... was trying at times.).
I thought that looked fun. I won't try and second guess what bits of TLJ they are running with and which they are ditching.
I particularly liked the look of a lightsaber fight on the half sunken remains of the Death Star. A nice opposite to the Revenge of The Sith lava fight.
Gigantic fleets of Star Destroyers don't seem to make much sense given the state of the First Order and Empire but the economics of Star Wars never stood up to much scrutiny.
And that totally looked like an older Rey to me... maybe her mum was a Sith.
So yeah, excited for this. Is that Ok with everyone? Should I be jaded and cynical about it instead?
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 31 August, 2019, 02:47:26 PM
Gigantic fleets of Star Destroyers don't seem to make much sense given the state of the First Order and Empire but the economics of Star Wars never stood up to much scrutiny.
Judging by the way the ships are all lined up, it may just be a junkyard, or at best a mothballed reserve fleet.
I can't stop looking at the the official Rise of Skywalker poster. It's so weird.
It's not terrible per se, it's just that it looks like it should be the cover of a tie-in Star Wars novel or videogame rather than a major motion picture. It looks cheap*, and a far cry from the excellent teaser poster for The Last Jedi.
(https://i.etsystatic.com/20952204/r/il/91c73d/1986167922/il_794xN.1986167922_1rib.jpg)
*I gather the still of Palpatine was actually sourced from a photo of a toy, which is quite amusing.
From looking at that I'd assume it was a poster for an animated movie.
Although after the last two it will be a pass from me anyway.
More like the wrapper of an unlicensed multi-flavoured ice pop cheekily called 'Space Wars'.
There are reports online that the Production team shot up to six different endings. I guess you could say having a selection of alternative finishes is a good idea, but perhaps it shows a lack of faith in the material. I hope that isn't the case, and I don't know for the moment about any reshoots as such. You'd think they'd start with a pretty strong narrative, to begin with, that pointed toward a particular conclusion. Disney has made it clear that after this Film Star Wars movies are going on a hiatus. It might be that this Movie is the last film in the Star Was saga ever made if the Disney Plus TV series do well.
Read recently that Rian Johnson is still working on his new trilogy. Might be the last we see of the original saga mind.
Apart from the odd special edition print by a third-party vendor, posters have been mostly reduced to clumsy photo-collages rather than distinctive art pieces — they aren't the priority pieces of fine-art marketing they once were. With the advent of Black Mirror devices they have been replaced by YouTube teasers and trailers as the initial point of public-access for whatever film or TV show's being sold.
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 14 September, 2019, 11:17:52 AM
It might be that this Movie is the last film in the Star Was saga ever made if the Disney Plus TV series do well.
I doubt it. Disney originals and acquired IPs are all now multi-platform brands that are recycled/remade dozens of times.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 14 September, 2019, 12:00:46 PM
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 14 September, 2019, 11:17:52 AM
It might be that this Movie is the last film in the Star Was saga ever made if the Disney Plus TV series do well.
I doubt it. Disney originals and acquired IPs are all now multi-platform brands that are recycled/remade dozens of times.
My feeling is that 'LAST EVAH!' is part of the push to frame this movie as both an event (understandable) and as a continuation of the OT, rather than this newfangled Disney trilogy. There may also be an undertone of 'look what your troll boycott of Solo did, go to this one or that's it, there'll be no more SW movies before bedtime'.
I
Give it less than 2 years before 'George's original 12-movie outline' is trotting around the astroturf circuit. (Not that I object).
JJA is already on record saying that Finn and Ray 's stories won't end in Episode 9, and considering the moolah The Diz has invested in suppressing worker's rights and pay building a Star Wars theme park that only just opened, I'll be surprised if they make it 18 months without an announcement about a new movie.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 14 September, 2019, 03:07:41 PM
JJA is already on record saying that Finn and Ray's stories won't end
One in the eye for all those urging Tharg to cancel
Sinister Dexter.
Disney all ready announced new SW films for December 16, 2022; December 20, 2024; and December 18, 2026.
https://deadline.com/2019/05/star-wars-movies-new-mutants-disney-fox-release-schedule-1202608933/
I will try to keep an open mind but I do not have hope for RJ to do justice to the next trilogy
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 14 September, 2019, 03:25:25 PM
Disney all ready announced new SW films for December 16, 2022; December 20, 2024; and December 18, 2026.
https://deadline.com/2019/05/star-wars-movies-new-mutants-disney-fox-release-schedule-1202608933/
Blimey, I had no idea of future films. That's interesting news. I think there were stories about the Knights of the Old Republic possibly becoming a series of films. Revenge of the Prequels!
Quote from: broodblik on 14 September, 2019, 03:28:27 PM
I will try to keep an open mind but I do not have hope for RJ to do justice to the next trilogy
Whereas I have high hopes! Johnson gets 'my' Star Wars better than anyone since Kasdan & Marquand. Takes all sorts!
I see they have given Rey a little something to keep the incels happy :o
Impeccable timing, Bob.
Disney CEO Says Star Wars Creator George Lucas Felt Upset and Betrayed When Told Sequel Trilogy Wouldn't Follow His Plots (https://comicbook.com/starwars/2019/09/23/disney-ceo-bob-iger-star-wars-george-lucas-upset-betrayed-sequel-trilogy-wouldnt-follow-his-plots/)
Welp, at least I know what I'll be seeing on my YouTube recommendations for the next 4 months.
How long before the first petition and kickstarter to "realise George Lucas' original idea for the sequels"?.
Stretch Target: $450,000,000.
And upon realisation, quite briskly followed by "How George Lucas ruined Star Wars". Also present some years earlier in those timelines where George didn't surrender to the Mouse and made his own sequels.
I love George, but I'm still of the opinion that it was relentless negativity about his later work that led him to swap the whole mess for heaps of billions that he could spend on his own interests and his charities instead: easier than having to work for it. He was dead right to do it, he didn't need the internet telling him he's an out of touch hasbeen and he's ruined everything 1000 times a day - he already had kids. If he wants to moan about how Disney went with his creations, let him, he still has the cash and they still have the rights; it's all good.
Anyway, maybe they'll use his ideas for Episodes X-XII.
If you sell the rights of a franchise unfortunately you sell you right to be listened to as well.
Quote from: broodblik on 24 September, 2019, 10:58:55 AM
If you sell the rights of a franchise unfortunately you sell you right to be listened to as well.
Depends what the exact terms of the deal were - though for that much money you'd expect Disney would have
all rights.
Ricky Gervais is often a dick but had the right attitude about The Office (America).
Along the lines of: "I can't complain about changes they've made. That would be like selling my house and complaining about the way the new owners have decorated it.".
Quote from: broodblik on 24 September, 2019, 10:58:55 AM
If you sell the rights of a franchise unfortunately you sell you right to be listened to as well.
Does this principle apply to 2000AD creators too? ;)
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 September, 2019, 11:51:02 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 24 September, 2019, 10:58:55 AM
If you sell the rights of a franchise unfortunately you sell you right to be listened to as well.
Does this principle apply to 2000AD creators too? ;)
I am not saying it is right but that is the way the world works. But I always find a strange when a franchise or character rights are sold that the new owner feels that they know what the "best" is. In most cases they stuff up the franchise.
Quote from: sheridan on 24 September, 2019, 11:19:14 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 24 September, 2019, 10:58:55 AM
If you sell the rights of a franchise unfortunately you sell you right to be listened to as well.
Depends what the exact terms of the deal were - though for that much money you'd expect Disney would have all rights.
Bob Iger's public statements I believe make the nature of those terms explicit: George Lucas signed
everything away in terms of the creative future of Star Wars. Expecting more adherence to his outlines after Disney spent 4 billion for the right to do as they please seems to me a bit naive, although going by the available concept work they didn't ditch it all. Lucas had planned to make the Sequels himself but a series of set-backs with Lucasfilm's expansion plans and fan backlash to the Prequels seem to have helped fast-track his philanthropical retirement, and he can't really be too vocal about his displeasure because he still owns 37.1 million Disney shares making him the second largest non-institutional shareholder.
I believe most of the dissatisfactions with the Sequels stem from Iger and Abrams going against Kathleen Kennedy and writer Michael Arndt's requests to delay Episode VII for another year and a half while they work out the storyline. The pressure of the deadline resulted in Abrams exercising greater control of the production from the offices of Bad Robot.
With the Oct. 24 exit of Star Wars: Episode VII writer Michael Arndt, the studio is under the gun to keep the film on course for a 2015 release despite a script that several insiders say isn't close to ready.
According to those close to the project, producer Kathleen Kennedy and most of the film's creative team have asked Disney to push the release to 2016, but studio CEO Robert Iger is adamant that Episode VII -- perhaps the franchise's most anticipated installment since 1999's The Phantom Menace -- not budge. That has created enormous pressure on all involved, with director J.J. Abrams stepping in to take over scripting duties with Lawrence Kasdan, who co-wrote 1980's Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, considered the best film in the series.
For his part, Arndt worked exclusively on Episode VII for most of the past year and already had penned a 40- to 50-page treatment before Lucasfilm was sold to Disney in October 2012. But as one of Hollywood's highest-paid screenwriters, who can command more than $300,000 a week doing rewrites, the Oscar-winning scribe (Little Miss Sunshine) was ready to move on to other projects.
Some sources say Abrams has become autocratic in recent months, wresting some casting control from Kennedy. But others disputed that notion, saying Abrams and Kennedy both have been involved in casting sessions. Unlike Kennedy, Abrams is said to be more in sync with Iger's desire to meet the 2015 release target -- which allows zero margin for error -- at all costs.https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/star-wars-episode-vii-disney-651482
This explains to me why the latest Star Wars movies felt like it was created by people whom never really cared for the franchise. They saw $ signs and that is it. The Disney Star Wars films I even rate less than the prequels (the exception is Rogue One my send favorite SW movie)
Quote from: broodblik on 24 September, 2019, 01:23:51 PM
This explains to me why the latest Star Wars movies felt like it was created by people whom never really cared for the franchise. They saw $ signs and that is it.
I don't believe that to be wholly the case either. The Disney board/shareholders may have had other priorities but I think those making the films cared about making
their Star Wars - even if it didn't fit with the multitude of fan expectations.
I should have said that it felt to me like people who never ever watched Star Wars made the movies.
It felt to me that they had watched TOO MANY.
Still liked 'em though, despite faults.
Quote from: broodblik on 24 September, 2019, 01:23:51 PM
This explains to me why the latest Star Wars movies felt like it was created by people whom never really cared for the franchise.
Whereas I'd have the opposite view: Last Jedi was for me the most genuinely Star-Warsy Star Wars since Return of the Jedi, Rogue One the least, despite all the accurate dressing (although I still enjoyed it).
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 September, 2019, 07:03:54 PMWhereas I'd have the opposite view: Last Jedi was for me the most genuinely Star-Warsy Star Wars since Return of the Jedi
(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/4c/47/31/4c473140ce79539fe558718450c0c243--bb-tattoo-ideas.jpg)
Quote from: Mardroid on 29 August, 2019, 11:47:53 PM
Quote from: Apestrife on 27 August, 2019, 06:59:46 PM
The fold out double lightsaber bothers me more than it should :|
I don't mind the concept... but it's something I'd prefer to unfold BEFORE igniting I think. Lightsabers are enough of a H&S nightmare as they are. 😆
Rule of Cool outranks Health and Safety regs!
QuoteI liked the trailer, but I'm easily impressed in some ways. The fact I like all the films, even the films that most fans (at least our generation) consider awful proves this, (although Phantom... was trying at times.).
Phantom was rather trying, though (in order of awesomeness) the podrace, Darth Maul and Duel of the Fates did much to help. The other two films had good bits, but obviously they all pail into insignificance next to the power of the Holy Trinity.
Cheeses crust, I wasn't wrong about my YouTube recommendations... "Disney admit they ruined Star Wars", "Kennedy betrayed Lucas" and on and on and on... imagine all that furious editing long into the night.
I really don't get the argument that Canto Bight scene was pointless. It's a daft chase scene filled with silly aliens in a daft franchise filled with silly aliens.
Star Wars has never been high art, or the series you turn to for interesting lore, TLJ had the same problems all good SW movie did, but it's highs where so much above most that have come before. Delightful movie.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 25 September, 2019, 02:12:20 PM
I really don't get the argument that Canto Bight scene was pointless. It's a daft chase scene filled with silly aliens in a daft franchise filled with silly aliens.
Star Wars has never been high art, or the series you turn to for interesting lore, TLJ had the same problems all good SW movie did, but it's highs where so much above most that have come before. Delightful movie.
This just this. I watched it this week and its brilliant. The last hour is almost certainly the most visually stunning segment in the entire franchise. Great movie.
TLJ remains one of the worst films I've ever seen. Though building on wonky foundations, I nonetheless thought it might be better than the mostly-rubbish TFA - removing JJ Abrams from any equation is always a good thing - but I was amazed by how spectacularly awful it was. Were it not that those of you praising it have previously displayed more than a modicum of taste, I'd regard you all as quite, quite mad.
(And yet... despite a barrel-scrapingly dire script, it does have some great visual design in it. Snoke's throne room looks great.)
My favorite character is Rose, the brave bomber pilot who explains why killing is wrong and why we shouldn't be trying to stop the baddies but instead sway them with superior arguments, which I imagine is the rationale a great many people have for joining a paramilitary terrorist organisation.
Greg M unfortunately you are correct in you analysis of TLJ. From the stupid slap-stick moments to the illogical plot twists it is the worse SW movie ever made. Currently I have No Hope that episode IX will be able to save the new trilogy but I hope I am completely wrong.
Quote from: Greg M. on 25 September, 2019, 06:21:56 PM
TLJ remains one of the worst films I've ever seen.... Were it not that those of you praising it have previously displayed more than a modicum of taste, I'd regard you all as quite, quite mad.
This in itself is quite wonderful though - all here share at least one long-term SF interest, and probably at one time an interest in SW as well, but as a group we seem about evenly split on whether we really love, utterly hate or couldn't care less about TLJ. It's an interesting dynamic, and certainly seems to contradict the popular assertion that this is just bland corporate shovelware.
Anyone who claims the sequels are bland, corporate shovelware need to rewatch the prequels, which stripped of their brand could barely pass for bottom shelf, direct to video schlock.
Quote from: Greg M. on 25 September, 2019, 06:21:56 PM
Were it not that those of you praising it have previously displayed more than a modicum of taste, I'd regard you all as quite, quite mad.
Hey things aren't bad here - at least the 'pro TLJ' side of the board isn't infecting a much respected thread with claims that 'The Princess Bride' isn't a piece of cinematic genius. Now that is madness!
Quote from: broodblik on 25 September, 2019, 06:57:05 PM
...From the stupid slap-stick moments to the illogical plot twists it is the worse SW movie ever made...
You've not seen episode 2 then? ;)
The one thing that completely baffled me (out of a whole raft of utterly incomprehensible plot devices) in TLJ was the idea of the bombers. Let's face it, throughout the SW franchise, spaceflight has been portrayed as frenetic, high speed and hard to track. Anything that can not move that fast tends to last a very short space of time. So to start the film with a scene in which lumbering bombers try bomb a fleet of hyperspace-flight-enabled destroyers requires a suspension of belief beyond the ordinary. Now I know that I am talking about believability in a fantasy film but let's face it, even by those standards this is a level of stupidity that breaks new ground.
Amazing that we're all okay with Leia Poppins.
The bombers aren't just unprecedentedly slow, they also carry a truly unprecedented payload: enough for just one to take out the most powerful non-HQ capital ship with a blunt frontal attack. Their weakness and strength are connected, albeit in a space fantasy logic way. From a filmmaking perspective the echo large WWII bombers on their lumbering approach, which is very much an extension of the Lucas approach to space combat.
I'd suggest that once the ridiculous numbers of bombs are armed the shIps are very vulnerable (hence the necessity of Poe taking out the dreadnaught's dorsal point defence) and rely on overlapping fields of fire and escort inteceptors to protect from fighters. Note that the.bombers appear out of nowhere as soon as Poe gives the all-clear, so they must have been moving pretty fast in open space or atmosphere before they started their attack runs.
They have to manoeuvre through and within the dreadnaught's shield envelope, which requires a low relative velocity (see Clone Wars and maybe TPM) with the stationary vessel, and judging from ANH ("we're passng through the magnetic field", shudder, shake) which may interact dangerously with the bombs.
It's a different approach to precision snub fighters: They're one-shot glass cannons, and they work.
I can't help but feel we might be coming at the question "why does the Rebel Alliance have bombers?" in the wrong spirit.
Less "how do they work?" and more "why would they use imprecise high-collateral weapons at all?"
Quote from: Professor Bear on 25 September, 2019, 10:40:01 PM
I can't help but feel we might be coming at the question "why does the Rebel Alliance have bombers?" in the wrong spirit.
Less "how do they work?" and more "why would they use imprecise high-collateral weapons at all?"
The Empire blocked up all their small exhaust ports.
That's what an all-meat diet does to you.
'Star Wars' Shocker: Marvel's Kevin Feige Developing New Movie for Disney (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/marvel-s-kevin-feige-developing-star-wars-movie-disney-1243481?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=THR%20Breaking%20News_now_2019-09-25%2018:42:26_ehayden&utm_term=hollywoodreporter_breakingnews)
Lucasfilm's Kathleen Kennedy "is pursuing a new era in 'Star Wars' storytelling, and knowing what a die-hard fan Kevin is, it made sense for these two extraordinary producers to work on a 'Star Wars' film together," Walt Disney Studios co-chairman Alan Horn tells The Hollywood Reporter.
"The bombers don't make sense!"
And I don't get that argument.
AT-AT Walkers make no sense. Lightsabres make no sense. Capital ships make no sense. Death Stars make no sense. The small arms make no sense. Nothing in Star Wars universe makes much sense if you give it more scrutiny than the story needs you to.
But AT-ATs especially make no sense. But they look cool as, obey the imaginary rules the filmmakers set out for them, and serve the thematic storytelling of the scenes they first appear in. As do the Bombers.
My question becomes "Why is that no longer enough for movie audiences?".
Quote from: TordelBack on 25 September, 2019, 07:09:41 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 25 September, 2019, 06:21:56 PM
TLJ remains one of the worst films I've ever seen.... Were it not that those of you praising it have previously displayed more than a modicum of taste, I'd regard you all as quite, quite mad.
This in itself is quite wonderful though - all here share at least one long-term SF interest, and probably at one time an interest in SW as well, but as a group we seem about evenly split on whether we really love, utterly hate or couldn't care less about TLJ. It's an interesting dynamic, and certainly seems to contradict the popular assertion that this is just bland corporate shovelware.
Yes.
Although, I find it no coincidence that
our side are the more handsome and charismatic forum members.
Somewhere along the road people mistook SW for hard SF, instead of fairytales draped in white plastoid-composite armour rather than platemail. Generally this happened when teenagers and adults decided it wasn't cool to like fairytales, and Lucasfilm licensing were happy to profit from this by supplying endless pseudo-technical books attempting to rationalise how this stuff works, and games that recast it all as a balanced military strategy game (See also the insistence that US military organisational and rank structure be accurately represented in StarTrek and SW). Sadly this coincided with Internet culture, where picking holes and sneering is 90% of what we do.
Incidentally the bomber sequence is high up in my ranking of favourite SW scenes ever. Gripping, heroic, well-paced, lushly rendered, quixotic. The Dambusters in 5 minutes. I lurve it I do.
Quote from: TordelBack on 26 September, 2019, 09:32:13 AM
Incidentally the bomber sequence is high up in my ranking of favourite SW scenes ever. Gripping, heroic, well-paced, lushly rendered, quixotic. The Dambusters in 5 minutes. I lurve it I do.
It really is brilliant. I've got a real itch to rewatch everything (even the prequels!) because working through Clone Wars is giving me a real Star Wars tooth just now. Playing through Republic Commando as well, which I've never played before and is surprisingly good shooty Star Wars action. I just want Star Wars in my veins right now seemingly.
Love the bomber sequence too. Particularly "ten bloody minutes ago". Not the space battle I was expecting.it was better.
It put me in mind of the simarly awesome opening to Star Trek reboot which had everything in that beautifully rendered first ten minutes that you'd have to have been Vulcan not to have a lump in your throat. Born on a battlefield, indeed.
It dawned on me that the biggest criticism of Force Awakens and Last Jedi was that it robbed us of the opportunity of seeing the three leads together.
I suspect JJ will rectify it with a final Force Ghost scene where they ALL appear as force ghosts including Han. And this will be explained by Jedi/Sith being transcended etc.
That's my guess...
QuoteIt dawned on me that the biggest criticism of Force Awakens and Last Jedi was that it robbed us of the opportunity of seeing the three leads together.
Yeah. I'm firmly of the opinion that basing the new trilogy around the old cast of characters would have been a mistake, but not having Luke and Han share a single scene together is a massive bummer, and a real headscratcher of a missed opportunity.
It seems like a lot of the hate towards Last Jedi is a kind of an emotional kneejerk revulsion to 'what they did to Luke/Han', or that the new trilogy essentially makes their accomplishments in the OT null and void. I don't really subscribe to this - anyone who knows anything about storytelling recognises that this is a prerequisite of continuing the saga. The Empire needs to come back. Luke needs to be taken out of the picture somehow. Having to (largely) maintain the status quo of the ending of Return of the Jedi - the heroes triumphant, the empire defeated - is why the old Expanded Universe stuff plateaued so fast.
It's the execution of the new films that (imo) stinks - I just don't think the new films are much cop when all is said and done. Certainly not strong enough to really enthrall a new generation in the same way the originals did. The link someone posted about how rushed the production of TFA was doesn't surprise me at all - it's really evident in the script.
As for Last Jedi, I consider it as a swing and a miss. I totally get what Rian Johnson was going for, I admire that he wanted to subvert expectations and do the unexpected.... I just thought the execution of the film itself was a bit of a disaster. My first review of the film walking out of the cinema was that it was 'a dog's dinner' and I still stand by that assessment.
Any lingering curiosity I might have had about ep9 went out the window when they announced that they were bringing back the Emperor. If that's not an admission that they are out of ideas I don't know what is.
The Mandalorian looks cool, though.
QuoteLast Jedi was for me the most genuinely Star-Warsy Star Wars since Return of the Jedi, Rogue One the least, despite all the accurate dressing (although I still enjoyed it).
Depends what you define as Star Warsyness.
For me they were both quite un Star Wars, but for very different reasons.
I feel like Star Wars movies have a very established visual language which TLJ really went out of its way to break, not least with the inclusion of things like multiple flashbacks, slo-mo, extended scenes solely featuring bit-part/non speaking characters, weird meta humour and overly fancy editing tricks. It didn't
feel like a Star Wars movie to me, but I understand that's very subjective.
Extended scenes featuring bit part/non-speaking characters? Racking my feeble brain, but not coming up with anything... and certainly nothing that goes further than R2 trundling through the desert, the expanded musical sequence in Jabba's palace, the battle of Geonosis, Order 66, or most of the Ewok battle.
I do agree about flashbacks, that was very odd for SW, but given the Forcey subject matter not too far removed from Anakin's visions in RotS or Rey's in TFA. Also, very important.
My main thought on the State of SW this morning was my immediate reaction to the announcement that Deborah Chow will direct the Kenobi TV series, which was "they're screwed". What an awful situation where my instant response was to envisage the new deluge of whining and negativity I was going to be exposed to.
"Terrible what those trolls are doing - when I sign up for Disney Plus, that'll show them!"
Your theory is definitely growing on me, Prof.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 28 September, 2019, 01:21:11 PM
"Terrible what those trolls are doing - when I sign up for Disney Plus, that'll show them!"
PC/ LEFT WING l NON-PC/ RIGHT WING
Marvel Batman (but not all DC)
Star Wars John Wick (but not Keanu Reeves)
The Matrix (reality) The Matrix (fictional universe)
Judge Dredd (reality) Judge Dredd (fictional universe)
Creed (Rocky) Rambo
Handmaid's Tale Game Of Thrones
All late-night US chat South Park
Harvey Weinstein Donald Trump
Better Call Saul Breaking Bad
cheese bacon
Dr Who (current) Dr Who (past)
beards trainers
old Star Trek old Star Trek
anecdotes about growth comedy
Pacific Rim Transformers
Brexit Brexit
face tattoos hip hop
Vin Diesel The Rock
All members should sign up for one side of the culture war or the other by next Tuesday and adjust their Netflix preferences accordingly.
But... but.. but.. I like all those things! Well, not Transformers, or Harvey Weinstein, but I did like Bumblebee and John Peel.
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 September, 2019, 03:13:24 PM
John Peel
You're doing this deliberately because it's endearing!
Although, coincidentally, John Peel (rather than John Wick) is a lot less PC nowadays than he was just 10 years ago
Quote from: Frank on 28 September, 2019, 03:21:02 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 September, 2019, 03:13:24 PM
John Peel
You're doing this deliberately because it's endearing!
Although, coincidentally, John Peel (rather than John Wick) is a lot less PC nowadays than he was just 10 years ago
Not a predicata-typo, in this instance. Sadly.
Ah, right. Not much that happened before 2008 (particularly in music) passes that test.
Paddington 2 l Ted
Cheese ........ left wing???????
Yeah. Cheese is as bad as bacon. Tempeh, Seitan, Quinoa; that's left wing.
Quote from: Tjm86 on 28 September, 2019, 07:59:12 PM
Cheese ........ left wing???????
I don't make the rules, mate.
The Incredibles 2 l Suicide Squad
Do you mean Rambo the 2008 film or Rambo the franchise? Only Rambos 1-3 are critiques of Western imperialism and toxic masculinity.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 28 September, 2019, 09:52:38 PM
Do you mean Rambo the 2008 film or Rambo the franchise?
The cartoon.
Call Me By Your Name l The Fast & The Furious
https://youtu.be/OMdPj3HXMgQ
2000AD l Judge Dredd Megazine
Donald Duck l Mickey Mouse
Dafuq youse on about?
QuoteExtended scenes featuring bit part/non-speaking characters? Racking my feeble brain, but not coming up with anything... and certainly nothing that goes further than R2 trundling through the desert, the expanded musical sequence in Jabba's palace, the battle of Geonosis, Order 66, or most of the Ewok battle.
I'm thinking mainly of the opening scene with the bomber crew and the ending scene with the little kid. Something about them just seemed really 'off' to me, and it's hard to put my finger on exactly why. I think its because Star Wars films tend to very tightly follow the principal characters and have very few scenes where they are absent? (Also mainly referring to the OT - I think I'm right in saying a lot of the examples you cite are from the Special Editions/prequels?)
I've only seen TLJ the once (and could be misremembering), but I also seem to remember there being a distinct lack of the signature transition wipes between scenes? It's a small thing, but does add to the overall Warsy-ness.
The flashbacks were certainly very odd given that the storytelling in SW has always been very linear - and it's weird that Johnson couldn't come up with a better solution to convey that information.
Quote from: radiator on 30 September, 2019, 06:30:39 PM
The flashbacks were certainly very odd given that the storytelling in SW has always been very linear - and it's weird that Johnson couldn't come up with a better solution to convey that information.
I actually really liked that part - very Rashomon-esque, and harks back to Lucas's own Kurosawa influence.
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 01 October, 2019, 12:16:12 PM
Quote from: radiator on 30 September, 2019, 06:30:39 PM
The flashbacks were certainly very odd given that the storytelling in SW has always been very linear - and it's weird that Johnson couldn't come up with a better solution to convey that information.
I actually really liked that part - very Rashomon-esque, and harks back to Lucas's own Kurosawa influence.
Comparing Johnson to Kurosawa would get you lynched in some homes, but not mine, it's a perfect parable, and a worthy example of why I feel the story telling in TLJ is a notch above whats come before.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 01 October, 2019, 02:26:47 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 01 October, 2019, 12:16:12 PM
Quote from: radiator on 30 September, 2019, 06:30:39 PM
The flashbacks were certainly very odd given that the storytelling in SW has always been very linear - and it's weird that Johnson couldn't come up with a better solution to convey that information.
I actually really liked that part - very Rashomon-esque, and harks back to Lucas's own Kurosawa influence.
Comparing Johnson to Kurosawa would get you lynched in some homes, but not mine, it's a perfect parable, and a worthy example of why I feel the story telling in TLJ is a notch above whats come before.
I'm clearly remembering a different film than everyone else.
I'm having an amazing conversation about Empire Strikes Back on Twitter with two self-proclaimed scions of SW fandom who have so far suggested I've (a) never seen the film, (b) I'm a child lying about my age, (c) if I did see it when I was 9 I should have understood it better and (f) I'm bashing other people's pastimes by suggesting that perceptions people had of a film in 1980 may not be the same as those they and others hold now.
Gatekeeping a 42-year-long fanboy talking about his favourite film seems pretty hardcore!
This all started with an observation that people get hit by lightsabers in both TESB and AotC and don't die/lose a limb, so maybe Finn and Kylo's injuries in TFA aren't as unprecedented as the anti-TLJ lobby assert.
Man, if you where to explain to them that pretty much all real life bladed melee weapons can graze as well as mortally wound they might just lose control of their bowls.
Drop you Twitter @ met Senior Tordels, slow day at the office I need a laugh.
My twitter handle will shock and amaze you!
But there's no way knowing it will make anyone's afternoon less boring.
It all started with responses to this gem of cherry-picked nonsense: Disney doesn't understand lightsabers (https://youtu.be/c85KaDSMIRM).
Urrrrgh, meant to add that by noting the tone of this discussion here I meant to make a wider point about gatekeeping: if my views, as a fat white beardo who saw every movie multiple times in the cinema on release and lives in a termite mound made of merch, are discounted as the ravings of a child by the modern post-RLM cognoscenti, what must it be like for other less-stereotypical demographics?
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 October, 2019, 04:34:29 PM
It all started with responses to this gem of cherry-picked nonsense: Disney doesn't understand lightsabers (https://youtu.be/c85KaDSMIRM).
Whoever made that video is to Star Wars fans what funda
mentalists are to religion. I could only manage about 3 minutes, but I'll probably have to correct my youtube recommendations for weeks.
Do you enjoy watching clickbait? Are you aware of Brandolini's Law?
Quote from: Mister Pops on 22 October, 2019, 01:49:27 AM
Do you enjoy watching clickbait? Are you aware of Brandolini's Law?
He
is Brandolini!
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 22 October, 2019, 02:45:34 AM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 22 October, 2019, 01:49:27 AM
Do you enjoy watching clickbait? Are you aware of Brandolini's Law?
He is Brandolini!
Or
The Brandalorian ! :o
Quote from: Mister Pops on 22 October, 2019, 01:49:27 AM
Do you enjoy watching clickbait? Are you aware of Brandolini's Law?
Actually I wasn't but thank you for that little gem. Or rather I was aware of it but not fully cognisant of it.
I love it: "The amount of energy required to refute Bovine Excrement is an order of magnitude
greater than that required to create it."
Just think, if we could harness all that energy we could solve the world's energy crisis at a stroke!
Here's the final trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qn_spdM5Zg
I don't care much for it, but I'll watch it for sake of completeness.
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 October, 2019, 04:34:29 PM
My twitter handle will shock and amaze you!
But there's no way knowing it will make anyone's afternoon less boring.
It all started with responses to this gem of cherry-picked nonsense: Disney doesn't understand lightsabers (https://youtu.be/c85KaDSMIRM).
Boy that chap is funny.
Quote from: Apestrife on 22 October, 2019, 05:48:35 AM
Here's the final trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qn_spdM5Zg
I don't care much for it, but I'll watch it for sake of completeness.
Well here's hoping. I'm not sure there's much there to grip and make this stand out. We'll see.
I'm fundamentally against bringing Palpatine back, so I'm naturally down on this thing, but for my money that trailer is ostentatious in the wrong places. The idea of [spoiler]Palps hiding his super-huge secret Star Destroyer fleet underwater (it's the last place they'd look - unless they'd ever seen a JJ Abrams film before!), and then having them hover about in the atmosphere just so Our Heroes can ride space horses about on them is just...[/spoiler] well, I can't say silly, because it's all silly, but maybe better suited to a certain kind of mid '90s SW novel.
Similarly the clip of a ragtag rebel fleet with (presumably) Lando leading them again should be arsom, but it's just a very ugly shot with way too much jammed into it. At least there are loads of new (and old) ships there to pick at.
On the positive side, the 'rebuilding the rebellion' thread does seem to be developed, and it is good to see the heroes all in the same place. Wave effects and starfighter action both look amazing, and I like that Threepio gets something to do, even if it is just [spoiler]Get Converted Into An Evil Robot for Reasons of Subterfuge[/spoiler].
And much respect to all involved for giving Carrie top billing.
As ever, it's not like I'm not going to see it opening week, so just have to wait and see.
Yeah, this looks...OK. Like the last two. Which, for me, weren't.
Lando looks well, though (is he still rocking the cape/collar look? That's hardcore).
Cheer up, guys, at least we've got The Mandalorian to look forward to.
I quite liked the "REYders Of The Lost Ark" vibe to the opening shots too.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 22 October, 2019, 11:17:56 AM
I quite liked the "REYders Of The Lost Ark" vibe to the opening shots too.
Yeah, that's nice. It does look like we're off on another maguffin hunt (the map to Palpatine?), and I'm happy with that part, as it builds on Rey's scavvy background and mirrors the (alleged) plot of TFA, which is what these movies should be doing: referencing and building on themselves and not some 40-something nostalgiafest.
If we get a kind of Last Crusade thing (Rey as Indy, Ghost Luke as Henry, Poe as Salah, Finn as Brody, Kylo as... Elsa?) it could be fun.
And if as it now apeaea the Death Star ruins are just a stop along the way (ahh, Venice!) as opposed to figuring in the climax, that would be less irritating.
It looks like a training remote chasing her at start so it might be a training exercise.
The more I watch it, the more am utterly gobsmacked by the visuals. How much processing power must it take to work out those fluid mechanics and render it all?
After watching the latest trailer I feel more at ease and will try to see it the opening weekend.
So watching it again over lunch, it's not water that Star Destroyer is emerging from, is it? And then SPECULATION [spoiler]look at all the pointy triangular peaks on that ice-asteroid thingie..[/spoiler].
Tips is correct, the water modelling is insanely effective: way beyond anything I've seen before.
There are a couple of shots in there that expose the Marvel and Transformers aesthetic as vulgar and tacky, like a modern-day Mustang or the SUX-6000 (https://youtu.be/fl8mQhxhE_Q).
Which is what you'd expect from an ongoing concern founded upon production design that made contemporaries, like Logan's Run, look silly. The director's first 'Wars looked pretty bog-standard*; maybe someone's been put in charge of maintaining visual continuity across the films.
Top observation regarding the Raiders intro; the sustained chord (https://youtu.be/OHoJkklM490)** of the outro sounded familiar, too.
* Better than the prequels, obviously ** Piano Forte-second-long sustain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Day_in_the_Life#Final_chord)
hah ,good catch!
Been doing some ruminating, and I think my main problem with this trailer is that it fails to tell me a story, preferring to show me familiar stuff... but turned up to 11. Even as a big fan of TLJ it was clear that the end of that film left a gigantic blank in terms of what would happen next. At one level I was delighted by this - uncertainty! Potential! Alas, this trailer doesn't really give me many pointers in that direction. Rey and Kylo's relationship appears to be in stasis, Poe and Finn have been rebuilding the resistance, but as to the rest...
Who is doing what to who here? When last we left them, the First Order had taken two or three massive kickings in succession, but as they appeared to have hit the Republic (TFA) and the Resistance (TLJ) far worse blows they looked to still be ahead on points. So why do we appear to be building to a big fight between the galaxy's Skywalker-renewed hope and a revenant Palpatine and a secret fleet of old-timey Star Destroyers? Where has Supreme Leader Ren's First Order gone? Wasn't that what they were fighting in the last two films? Is this a three way fight now?
This kind of mess is perfectly acceptable, even desirable, as a tease for a first or second film, but if you want me to get all emotionally engaged in a climactic last battle with sweeping elegiac soundtrack, I really think I should know who's fighting and what the stakes are. Han and Luke are already dead, tragically Leia won't be doing much, so explain what's happening to these recent characters and why I should care! This trailer seems to assume I already know.
Wasn't the entire resistance effectively on the Falcon by the end of TLJ? Or was I misreading things?
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 22 October, 2019, 01:28:53 PM
It looks like a training remote chasing her at start so it might be a training exercise.
The more I watch it, the more am utterly gobsmacked by the visuals. How much processing power must it take to work out those fluid mechanics and render it all?
Well, it is from a film studio which was built from animating liquids (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxf-UHuGobI) (I count four in that short video)...
Quote from: sheridan on 22 October, 2019, 08:24:12 PM
Well, it is from a film studio which was built from animating liquids (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxf-UHuGobI) (I count four in that short video)...
More like the studio that was developing and producing CGI X-Wings in
1978 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=88&v=i8zjMQz5Ftg) that almost made it into
The Empire Strikes Back.
Disney's the new owner but
Lucasfilm is the studio – they have a particular set of skills.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 22 October, 2019, 08:10:57 PM
Wasn't the entire resistance effectively on the Falcon by the end of TLJ? Or was I misreading things?
It was, but some time has passed and the legend of Luke facing down the whole First.Order with a laser sword has given the galaxy hope again. Leia refers to their surviving allies in TFA, but they were too mired in despair to come to their aid: that has changed, and Poe & Co have rebuilt. That much I'm good with.
My problem is wondering what's happened to the First Order to make Palpatine's secret mothballed fleet the big unifying threat: wasn't the FO already minutes from total control of the galaxy at the start of TFA?
Those look like First Order troopers being shot as they run down the corridor. But couldn't make out ships anywhere.
That's a lovely line from Threepio. Can't help but think he's saying it to the wrong people though.
Totally! I choose to believe he's talking about Chewie, R2 and maybe BB8.
Currently I'm wondering how the Emperor's throne room, set on the top of an incredibly spindly largely-hollow observation tower, managed to survive the Death Star's destruction pretty much intact (chair still in place!), enter an atmosphere and land right-way up. It'll be even more puzzling when it turns out this watery place isn't even on Endor.
George Lucas Reacts to Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Final Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MuxVqB3I7E)
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 23 October, 2019, 01:15:10 PM
George Lucas Reacts to Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Final Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MuxVqB3I7E)
The only way you can tell that's a DeepFake is the hair isn't luxuriant, elaborate or high enough. There aren't enough terabytes (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03213-z) on Earth.
Brilliant, though, and very funny. I especially loved the paraphrasing of Dick Nixon (https://vimeo.com/225273702)'s departing address.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 23 October, 2019, 01:15:10 PM
George Lucas Reacts to Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Final Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MuxVqB3I7E)
Not able to watch yet (at work) but I like the intro:
"Legendary producer George Lucas (Howard the Duck) reacts to..."
It's very well done, both face and voice, but the humour is very much from the Movie Mistakes school of 'hilarity'.
"It makes Attack of the Clones look like Citizen Kane ..."
:lol:
The suggestion about the household device that could have been used as a part of a robot though ....
:o
Quote from: Tjm86 on 23 October, 2019, 05:01:59 PM
"It makes Attack of the Clones look like Citizen Kane ..."
Yes, it must have taken a team of crack comedy writers to come up with that 'epic burn' ::).
(Although if one were to compare some of the AotC trailers (https://youtu.be/lA_MiVrVeoc) with this one that mightn't be a bad comparison... a more elegant approach, for a more civilised time).
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 October, 2019, 02:56:50 PM
It's very well done, both face and voice, but the humour is very much from the Movie Mistakes school of 'hilarity'.
Ah, come on -
the prequels were risky for me because they were more operatic, more tone poems. It wasn't about dialogue or acting or any semblance of traditional film making we've known or understood since the beginning of cinema.
I know you love lots of parts of the prequels, but that's a funny burlesque of Lucas's attitude as seen in those DVD extras from the Bush/Blair era and the comical gap between his perception of what he was doing and the actual fruits of his direction.
I'm not a fan of critiquing the logic of movies (or any other kind of story) either, but gently ribbing the pomposity of actual billionaires who take themselves too seriously is what comedy's for.
Nah, that 'tone poem' bit is indeed very good. It's just the banal talking-over trailer footage, dear grud unless you have something to say, that's done.
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 October, 2019, 06:16:26 PM
Nah, that 'tone poem' bit is indeed very good. It's just the banal talking-over trailer footage, dear grud unless you have something to say, that's done.
To be honest, all he had to do was say
crystal foxes and I cracked up, rather than the tired shit about Mary Sues in which all the
DESTROYED! thumbnails the algorithm will be pushing on me* trade.
I say that as a very serious, prepubescent
Return Of The Jedi obsessive**, who was incensed any time weary cynics slagged the Ewoks I loved and made withering Muppet jibes about my beloved.
Well, now I'm the grandad.
* now I've made the mistake of not watching that video in a private window. Actually, Youtube's algorithm is pretty easy to train, but it only takes one of those videos to send it off down a rabbit hole until you make with the NOT INTERESTED option from the dropdown menu
** For a long time, I maintained that Jedi was better than Star Wars, which it obviously isn't, but I believed that sincerely. Mostly based on the terrifying throne room confrontation and the way that sequence switched between Death Star Canyon II and AT-ST porn, which I still consider masterful.
I genuinely thought Lucas was seeing how many action sequences he could intercut effectively in a finale.
Star Wars - one; Trench run
Empire - two; luke vs. Vader and Leia bespin escape
Jedi - three; throne room and endor and death star 2
Phantom: four; space battle, ground battle, palace raid and Darth Maul sabre fight
I was disappointed when Clones didn't have five things at once.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 23 October, 2019, 07:06:37 PM
I was disappointed when Clones didn't have five things at once.
5, Mass Genocides
4, Clones a'Shootin'
3, Alien Beasties
2, Jedi's Losing
And a Chrisopher Lee too good for this movie.
Quote from: Frank on 23 October, 2019, 06:43:32 PM
** For a long time, I maintained that Jedi was better than Star Wars, which it obviously isn't, but I believed that sincerely. Mostly based on the terrifying throne room confrontation and the way that sequence switched between Death Star Canyon II and AT-ST porn, which I still consider masterful.[/i]
Coincidentally I just finished rewatching that one, and no question,
Jedi from the point they meet up back at the fleet is just fantastic. Not that I dislike Jabba, but there's so much repetition in the first half: 3 arrivals at Jabba's Palace, 2 arrivals at the Death Star (again) and then Dagobah (again): it's slow, and a bit of a mess. But anything with speeder bikes, fleet engagements, Ewoks and the Emperor: brill.
Hitchcock described his function as a director as a switchback railroad (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zig_zag_(railway)) operator, controlling the emotional response of the audience.
The final act of Return Of The Jedi is as good an example of that as I can think of, building the tension then relieving it, making you think the story's going one way and then the other. I was a wreck every time I watched it on video.
That's what Smarty Scorsese was talking about when he described Marvel movies as theme parks the other week. There's no doubt those movies work by exploiting your emotional and visceral response to spectacle and peril, but when it's done with such skill it's foolish to dispute the artistry involved.
I've no problem with those big lads expressing disdain for the production line of Marvel movies: they know their craft and they know what they like. But the long sad history of superhero films would indicate that making successful, satisfying ones is very far from easy. See also: Star Wars films.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 22 October, 2019, 01:28:53 PM
It looks like a training remote chasing her at start so it might be a training exercise.
The training remote is more obvious in the previous trailer (the one which is half-full of clips from previous films).
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 October, 2019, 12:30:09 PM
Currently I'm wondering how the Emperor's throne room, set on the top of an incredibly spindly largely-hollow observation tower, managed to survive the Death Star's destruction pretty much intact (chair still in place!), enter an atmosphere and land right-way up. It'll be even more puzzling when it turns out this watery place isn't even on Endor.
I was thinking about that today (well, not the landing right-way up bit). I think it might be more likely the throne tower survived the destruction of DS2 than if it had been on DS1. I figure that any explosive forces would naturally flow towards the bits of the space station that hadn't been completed yet.
Watching RotJ earlier, and you can definitely see larger pieces of the DS2 when Leia and Han are watching the explosion from the surface. As Sheridan notes, if any bit of the station survived, it's more likely to be the bit sticking out furthest from the core and the unfinished parts. It's more that it appears to have survived re-entry and ended up upright and level. And it occurs that the books had the rebels using tractor beams and whatnot to protect Endor from the impact of larger debris, so maybe they effected soft landings for the bigger bits?
Still convinced this isn't Endor, mind.
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 October, 2019, 10:43:48 PMStill convinced this isn't Endor, mind.
Not that moon, the
other one.
In the trailers for Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker, you caught glimpses of the ocean moon Kef Bir. (https://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2019/10/here-we-go-again-exciting-updates-to-star-tours-the-adventures-continue/?CMP=SOC-DPFY20Q1wo1017190017A)
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kef_Bir
Oooookay. Not the moon it was in ridiculously close orbit with, or the gas giant that moon orbited in turn, but another inhabited moon. JJ really hates everything about space, doesn't he? Crossing my fingers for 'rebels towed the wreckage there' to save the Ewoks (but ignored the people and space horses living there) but not expecting to hear it.
The obvious joke is that JJA is collateral damage from Vladimir Putin's mind-control rays telling people "abandon the EU".
Do we know which Death Star it is?
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 24 October, 2019, 02:18:34 PM
Do we know which Death Star it is?
I would presume the second, not much significance in the Emperors throne room in the first as we never saw him in it.
Yeah presence of throne room* and association of film with the Emperor strongly suggests the Mk. 2. But then JJ does like his little deceptions.
*Not really a throne room so much as a gazebo with a swivel chair in it. Presumably Palpidious had somewhere more formal to sit for the preceeding 20something years.
Just booked my tickets! Not sure I've ever booked a film anywhere near as far in advance as this, but am quite excited and want to make sure I get it watched before the xmas break (and obviously before the internet memes the hell out of every spoiler they can). It is safe to say I am very much on the hype train (despite avoiding all the hype, only relented and watched the trailer yesterday).
Still nope
Feel I should have known this. If I ever did, I'd forgotten it:
(https://i.imgur.com/H0CueHW.png?2)
Walter Murch on IMDB (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004555/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1)
Quote from: Frank on 26 October, 2019, 03:23:41 PM
Feel I should have known this. If I ever did, I'd forgotten it:
(https://i.imgur.com/H0CueHW.png?2)
Walter Murch on IMDB (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004555/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1)
Cool. Never heard about that before. Thank you for sharing :)
You probably think you've seen enough analysis of The Last Jedi to last a lifetime, but this video essay is well worth a watch.
https://youtu.be/T2cBTLsWiDg (https://youtu.be/T2cBTLsWiDg)
FWIW, despite agreeing with the vast majority of points made in the video, I still don't really like the movie overall. I totally got what Johnson was going for thematically, and admired a lot about what he tried to do (and I always thought a lot of the common complaints you hear about it, especially the fan servicey stuff re: Snoke and Luke). It's just that I personally didn't really like the actual execution of those ideas. I still have a lasting impression of the movie being a bit of a bloated mess that is really hampered by some lame subplots and some really regrettable attempts at humour. Though I may have just been convinced to give it a reassessment.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/h4qinW2tsXlXtj9Qpe/giphy.gif)
I can't be bothered to go back in the thread to find it, but I'm pretty sure I made the point at the time that all the criticism re: Snoke's origin was a red herring and not a valid criticism. After all, we never found out anything about the Emperor in the OT - he was only interesting because of his relationship to characters we did care about. Why people zero in on Snoke so much is (imo) because Rey and Kylo Ren, and by extension Snoke, aren't nearly as well rendered or interesting characters as Vader and Luke were, which is a failing of the sequel trilogy in general.
Regarding Luke and the Jedi, something that this video really hits on that I haven't really seen discussed much elsewhere is that one of the best things about TLJ was that it attempted to bring the more spiritual and pacifistic side of the Jedi back to the fore. I didn't love all the projection stuff (maybe it would sit better with me now), but I'm totally on board with the Jedi being a bit more mystical and magical like they were in the OT, and not having to be boxed in to this prescribed 'move set' of previously established abilities.
As the video rightly points out, the Jedi were never supposed to be assassins, or even warriors at all, really. Who's to say, based on the original movie, that Ben Kenobi's military service didn't predate his tenure as a Jedi Knight? It always stayed with me that Luke won in the OT by refusing to fight. And since then, throughout all the prequels and cartoons and videogames etc etc they've just been portrayed in the most cookie-cutter, boring, lightsaber-twirlingly literal way imaginable. Having Luke come back as a 'badass', as most people seemed to want, would have been completely awful, and I never had a problem with the lightsaber toss, or the milk bit as most people seem to.
As I say, I'm kind of curious to give TLJ another chance and see if I can look past all of the cringey stuff that put me off on first watch.
Quote from: radiator on 13 December, 2019, 04:02:17 AMRegarding Luke and the Jedi, something that this video really hits on that I haven't really seen discussed much elsewhere is that one of the best things about TLJ was that it attempted to bring the more spiritual and pacifistic side of the Jedi back to the fore. I didn't love all the projection stuff (maybe it would sit better with me now), but I'm totally on board with the Jedi being a bit more mystical and magical like they were in the OT, and not having to be boxed in to this prescribed 'move set' of previously established abilities.
The Last Jedi is full of set-ups and pay-offs, and I assume the narrative conceit of Luke getting the idea to astrally project himself across the galaxy was incepted in the Falcon, when R2D2* played back the original hologram of Leia's S.O.S to grumpy Luke. As a metaphorical bookend, the original call to action that sparked Luke's 'journey' all those years ago was at the very end answered, this time with Luke projecting himself
back to Leia when she again needed help.
*again, of course, R2D2 saves the day.(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-33d78bffc6e2379ea313a6880a8cd772)(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-W5NmBYMf_3U/Wy4dtmsW3OI/AAAAAAAANnA/2ob5UDmj3pswDBNBrkMnB47YGBYwxcE6QCLcBGAs/s1600/Star-Wars-Episodio-IX-Un-rumor-sobre-su-secuencia-de-inicio-va-ganando-adeptos-en-Internet_landscape.jpg)
We've all gotta be there for this final, final one, guys...haven't we?
Final = not really, probably
I liked TLJ, but especially the attempt to eradicate bloodline. I suppose we're going to find out in the next film that Rey is in fact a Skywalker or something equally awful.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 13 December, 2019, 06:13:27 AM
*again, of course, R2D2 saves the day.
(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-33d78bffc6e2379ea313a6880a8cd772)(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-W5NmBYMf_3U/Wy4dtmsW3OI/AAAAAAAANnA/2ob5UDmj3pswDBNBrkMnB47YGBYwxcE6QCLcBGAs/s1600/Star-Wars-Episodio-IX-Un-rumor-sobre-su-secuencia-de-inicio-va-ganando-adeptos-en-Internet_landscape.jpg)
To misquote Hudson from Aliens: "Why don't you put
R2 in charge?" I'd watch THAT movie.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 13 December, 2019, 12:42:05 PM
I liked TLJ, but especially the attempt to eradicate bloodline. I suppose we're going to find out in the next film that Rey is in fact a Skywalker or something equally awful.
Yeah - I think I've said before (maybe some time ago on this thread) - the whole 'chosen one' is a very tired trope, especially when it just reinforces ideas of 'that person is born to rule'. The best thing about The Last Jedi was that Rey wasn't anybody special (other than being force-sensitive, but you know what I mean).
Quote from: blackmocco on 13 December, 2019, 08:33:45 PMTo misquote Hudson from Aliens: "Why don't you put R2 in charge?" I'd watch THAT movie.
Secure that shit!
On Rey, that is also to my mind a better message for kids. Anyone can be special. You don't have to be an heir to a throne.
I have no problem with Rey being a 'nobody', I just think story-wise it's very anticlimactic. Like, it's only frustrating to people because the subject of her identity has been so egregiously built up and teased, so it feels like a bit of a rug pull (accusations of 'subverting expectations' blah blah blah). It would probably have been better to resolve it during The Force Awakens rather than stretch it out over two whole movies. Again - solid idea, but I didn't really like the execution of it.
I'm kind of interested to rewatch the movie to see if the Finn and Poe plotlines are as bad as I remember them being, as those are the bits that I thought really bogged the movie down, while the Luke/Rey stuff was mostly solid.
I think it's great. "Hey, kids: you can be special too – you don't have to be a king or a princess." And this is ESPECIALLY true for girls, who have that shit rammed home from when they're toddlers. Half the bloody stories hurled their way are: aspire to be something you can never be. I am going to be so fucking annoyed if she's a Skywalker or similar – and I suspect that's inevitably where they're heading.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 14 December, 2019, 12:31:18 PM
I am going to be so fucking annoyed if she's a Skywalker or similar – and I suspect that's inevitably where they're heading.
Trying desperately not to get involved in this discussion but yeah, that ^^^^. I've seen nothing in the RoS publicity that gives me any hope that this film won't just be rolling back as much of the good stuff from TLJ as possible, in between endless nostalgia milking and pretty splosions (I like the pretty splosions). Johnson is an auteur compared to Abrams, who already successfully played his one note and should have left it at that.
If corporate and fan politics were completely expunged from Star Wars, I'd have looked forward to an Episode IX synthesis of ideas and threads presented by Johnson & Abrams – t'would make the most sense – instead it's whatever/just make it look and sound good.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 14 December, 2019, 03:48:18 PM
If corporate and fan politics were completely expunged from Star Wars, I'd have looked forward to an Episode IX synthesis of ideas and threads presented by Johnson & Abrams – t'would make the most sense – instead it's whatever/just make it look and sound good.
Unfortunately I have the same apprehensions. However, one thing I can be sure of is that it will look great - and if I generally only go to the cinema these days for films that look impressive on the big screen. Smaller, character-driven films I'm happy to watch at home.
Quote from: sheridan on 14 December, 2019, 10:42:58 PM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 14 December, 2019, 03:48:18 PM
If corporate and fan politics were completely expunged from Star Wars, I'd have looked forward to an Episode IX synthesis of ideas and threads presented by Johnson & Abrams – t'would make the most sense – instead it's whatever/just make it look and sound good.
Unfortunately I have the same apprehensions. However, one thing I can be sure of is that it will look great - and if I generally only go to the cinema these days for films that look impressive on the big screen. Smaller, character-driven films I'm happy to watch at home.
Kind of missed half of what I was meant to be saying there. ...look impressive on the big screen and am pleasantly surprised if there is more depth to it than that. I also only expect adaptations of things I'm already familiar with to be quite shallow - so I enjoyed Tank Girl when I saw it, (the visual side of) the 1995 film*, the 2000 Gormenghast series**, both adaptations of His Dark Materials and I could probably name a few more. Not to say they couldn't have been better, but I can live with what we got.
* except for the gold codpiece.
** how many times does the book say how slate grey the whole castle is, except for Prunesquallor's house - how colourful was the castle that made it on to the screen?
Rewatched THE FORCE AWAKENS tonight in preparation and we all really enjoyed it. I do believe I enjoy it more on every viewing.
Force Awakens for me had that classic Abrams thing where I really enjoyed it at the time, then it just kind of evaporated from my mind. I've seen it again since, and I still think it's fairly solid up until the bit where they get to the bar place, and then it just starts to feel a bit wobbly.
I do like the Kylo/Han scene, and I like the Rey/Kylo fight, but everything else in the back half of the movie feels a bit superfluous. The Starkiller stuff just feels totally flat and devoid of stakes or tension to me. Even the characters in the movie don't even seem to be taking it especially seriously.
What struck is this time particularly was Rey's introduction. It starts as silent, any subsequent dialogue is mostly functional and establishes the situation she is in, and she has a fabulous theme. And then you see several times how people underestimate her, and how capable she is.
And I did not know that Barry voiced BB8!
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 15 December, 2019, 12:29:06 PM
What struck is this time particularly was Rey's introduction. It starts as silent, any subsequent dialogue is mostly functional and establishes the situation she is in, and she has a fabulous theme. And then you see several times how people underestimate her, and how capable she is.
It's true. And yet there is nothing at any point to let us know she's capable of piloting a spacecraft (let alone performing death-defying feats of flying in a TIE fighter dogfight). We see she's a capable scavenger and badass but nothing else. For me personally, it's the first bad storytelling plonker (many more are to follow) that ultimately drags the movie down. I don't need everything spoon-fed to me in a movie but in this case, I feel like TFA needed to throw me a bone. Even Luke let us know in a piece of throwaway dialogue he was capable of flying a crummy little T-16 at this point. Little details that stories hang on that Abrams either isn't capable of or doesn't care about supplying. He's so worried about whipping us from one set piece to another that he gives no thought as to how we should actually get there. It worked at the end of Jaws because Spielberg had put so much effort into getting us there. Abrams isn't capable of that depth.
No, she says it. As they are running from the TIE fighters, Finn shouts "We need a pilot!" and Rey replies "We've got one". It's as much as Luke got.
Yep. We see her pilot doll in her AT-AT home, and she daydreams in an X-Wing helmet, and earlier looks wistfully at a departing vessel, so her interest in flight is well set up. It's also obvious from subsequent dialogue with Han that she had experience with starships working for Plutt, just that she never flew offworld before.
A bigger leap might be Finn suddenly flying a ski-speeder into battle in TLJ, but in fact his ability with groundcraft was lost to a deleted scene from TFA (the snowspeeder scene that also explains what's going on with Poe's jacket constantly switching owners on Starkiller base).
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 15 December, 2019, 04:14:53 PM
No, she says it. As they are running from the TIE fighters, Finn shouts "We need a pilot!" and Rey replies "We've got one". It's as much as Luke got.
Star Wars has always functioned on character short-cuts (Han always takes the short-cut) and ellipses between films, and I don't have a huge problem with Rey being a good pilot on a planet of junk ships, but what I believe
blackmocco is implying is that there was a certain amount of dramatic development time allowed to sit between Luke mentioning the T-16 and then jumping into an X-Wing – there was build-up whereas JJA just goes for the direct hit. Again I don't have a huge problem with Rey's abilities. It's still a leap for Luke going from light aircraft to ace fighter-pilot but it was given audience time to render and be vague enough while the audience gets to know the character.
The more pertinent issue it could be argued is Rey having force knowledge after Kylo's interrogation – that's the 'force awakens' part that's been left to hang somewhat till the last film, apparently. I'm not in love with that kind of mystery element, or it being left so long for an answer but it is part of the overall theme, and JJ gonna JJ.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 15 December, 2019, 04:14:53 PM
No, she says it. As they are running from the TIE fighters, Finn shouts "We need a pilot!" and Rey replies "We've got one". It's as much as Luke got.
Ehh. I mean, yeah, she
says it but that's just because Abrams isn't nuanced enough to lay the groundwork. He needs her to be a fucking awesome star pilot because he needs his dogfight, so the best he can give us is her literally telling us, the audience, just a hair short of winking at the camera.
We know Luke wants to leave Tatooine to join the academy. We see him play with his T-16 model. Kenobi says he's heard Luke's quite a pilot. All the signposting about Luke's mysterious father at least gives some weight to the notion there's something special about him and his place in the story. By contrast, Rey gets a helmet, which could honestly mean anything on a planet littered with wrecked spacecraft (I assumed she just wore it as a hat!) - and she looks at spacecraft leaving Jakku (which I always took to mean she was being reminded of her parents leaving, not that she dreamed of being a pilot). In all fairness, I assumed by the time we got to TLJ, they'd have put some meat on Ray's bones as a character, but they actually do less and make her a literal nobody, making her force skills even more unexplainable (no doubt soon to be revised again in the new one).
I know, I know, it's only Star Wars and yes, pretty much all of the movies - even the ones I still love - have giant plotholes in them, but in the 21st century one would hope even a Star Wars movie would try and do some homework.
Quote from: blackmocco on 15 December, 2019, 07:46:48 PM
We know Luke wants to leave Tatooine to join the academy. We see him play with his T-16 model. Kenobi says he's heard Luke's quite a pilot. All the signposting about Luke's mysterious father at least gives some weight to the notion there's something special about him and his place in the story.
While I think there's sufficient notice given of Rey's potential abilities (added to the fact that she botches the Falcon's takeoff and skids about the place for a bit, and her winning tactic isn't to outfly the TIEs but to use the terrain she knows from being a scavenger and let Finn pick them off), I do agree that the Luke thing is far better set up - with both Ben's off-screen informant and Biggs vouching for his skills at either end of the movie in addition to his own boasting.
I agree with blackmocco, its shoddy writing.
the line where rey breathlessly 'explains' why she's able to pilot a ship like the falcon comes across as so shoehorned-in and inelegant to me that its almost humourous - a quick script band aid applied over a pretty gaping plot discrepancy.
It ties in to a bigger problem I have with her characterisation in general. ie If she's as capable and self-possessed as we're being told, why on Earth (Jakku?) wouldn't she just hotwire the nearest spaceship and escape this life of drudgery? Or at least take work as a pilot? Its established in earlier films that being a starship pilot is a marketable skill, and yet shes stuck being a lowly scavenger? I know there's this contrivance where they say she's 'waiting for her parents to come back', but that seems totally at odds with who she is. The character they're showing us wouldn't be so passive if she has the means of escape right at her fingertips. She'd go off and FIND the parents, surely? Like, how long's she gonna wait? Again, the explanation we're given seems like a slightly awkward fix that doesn't really ring true or make a lot of sense in context, to me at least.
I have similar issues with Finn. He seems to flip between cowardly comic relief or selfless hero depending and what the script says per given scene, and his overall chipper, cheeky demeanour doesn't square at all with his stated backstory of childhood trauma and forced conscription.
Daisy Ridley and John Boyega are tremendous actors, but they deserved characters that were a bit more fully fleshed out. As it is, the script feels really half baked and they just about get by on charisma.
Oh, and while we're at it; as much as I love Oscar Isaac, Poe should have stayed dead after the tie fighter crash, as per the original script. As a character, he works much better as a misdirect. His resurrection later on in the film makes no sense (again, its hand waved with a really clumsy line of dialogue), he feels extraneous, and his continued presence (imo) detracts from Finn's arc, that of trying to impersonate and take the mantle of a genuine hero who died saving him.
The wishy washy characterisation of the three leads is the sequel trilogies biggest weakness imo.
You know who Han is in the first five minutes of meeting him, whereas two entire films in I still don't feel like I have a handle on any of the new cast, with the exception of Kylo Ren.
Quote from: radiator on 15 December, 2019, 10:41:15 PM
I agree with blackmocco, its shoddy writing.
the line where rey breathlessly 'explains' why she's able to pilot a ship like the falcon comes across as so shoehorned-in and inelegant to me that its almost humourous - a quick script band aid applied over a pretty gaping plot discrepancy.
It ties in to a bigger problem I have with her characterisation in general. ie If she's as capable and self-possessed as we're being told, why on Earth (Jakku?) wouldn't she just hotwire the nearest spaceship and escape this life of drudgery? Or at least take work as a pilot? Its established in earlier films that being a starship pilot is a marketable skill, and yet shes stuck being a lowly scavenger? I know there's this contrivance where they say she's 'waiting for her parents to come back', but that seems totally at odds with who she is. The character they're showing us wouldn't be so passive if she has the means of escape right at her fingertips. She'd go off and FIND the parents, surely? Like, how long's she gonna wait? Again, the explanation we're given seems like a slightly awkward fix that doesn't really ring true or make a lot of sense in context, to me at least.
I have similar issues with Finn. He seems to flip between cowardly comic relief or selfless hero depending and what the script says per given scene, and his overall chipper, cheeky demeanour doesn't square at all with his stated backstory of childhood trauma and forced conscription.
Daisy Ridley and John Boyega are tremendous actors, but they deserved characters that were a bit more fully fleshed out. As it is, the script feels really half baked and they just about get by on charisma.
Oh, and while we're at it; as much as I love Oscar Isaac, Poe should have stayed dead after the tie fighter crash, as per the original script. As a character, he works much better as a misdirect. His resurrection later on in the film makes no sense (again, its hand waved with a really clumsy line of dialogue), he feels extraneous, and his continued presence (imo) detracts from Finn's arc, that of trying to impersonate and take the mantle of a genuine hero who died saving him.
The wishy washy characterisation of the three leads is the sequel trilogies biggest weakness imo.
You know who Han is in the first five minutes of meeting him, whereas two entire films in I still don't feel like I have a handle on any of the new cast, with the exception of Kylo Ren.
Yeah, pretty much all my issues as well. And I guess the disappointing bit is they're easily fixed with a little more patience. Even just a line or two of dialogue can be enough to bridge the gap.
The Finn thing is a bigger problem for me. A deserter Imperial stormtrooper is such a wonderful idea, so ripe with potential for an interesting conflicted character and two movies in, they've done nothing worthwhile with any of it. Mind you, I guess it explains why stormtroopers are so shite at everything they do if it's that simple to just walk away from a lifetime of conditioning.
Quote from: blackmocco on 15 December, 2019, 11:30:04 PM
The Finn thing is a bigger problem for me. A deserter Imperial stormtrooper is such a wonderful idea, so ripe with potential for an interesting conflicted character and two movies in, they've done nothing worthwhile with any of it. Mind you, I guess it explains why stormtroopers are so shite at everything they do if it's that simple to just walk away from a lifetime of conditioning.
To see Imperial conditioning handled better - see Star Wars: Resistance (the second series, so far).
While I like Finn as a character, I agree that his entire Stormtrooper-based life which only ended about 2 days before the start of TLJ is very poorly reflected.
Having not had much enthusiasm for RoS since the trailers started, I now find myself further discombulated to learn that my 13 year old son has arranged to see it with his mates, and not me. We've seen every SW since TPM 3D together, and while I'm primarily delighted that he's doing his own thing with his own friends, I'm also more than a little sad to see that era end. Such is parenthood, but not exactly the boost my interest needed!
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 December, 2019, 09:14:38 PM
Having not had much enthusiasm for RoS since the trailers started, I now find myself further discombulated to learn that my 13 year old son has arranged to see it with his mates, and not me. We've seen every SW since TPM 3D together, and while I'm primarily delighted that he's doing his own thing with his own friends, I'm also more than a little sad to see that era end. Such is parenthood, but not exactly the boost my interest needed!
I wouldn't worry too much Tordels. I have just over two decades on your son, and back in the day I was too cool to go with me Da to Episode III. Now the only reason I'm going to bother with seeing this is so I can go with the Oulfla. Disney are going to keep churning out Star Wars, so
the wee ingrate your son'll come back 'round eventually.
With regards to everything else upthread, I'm just a real cool guy and too groovy to pick apart/justify these lazily slapped together cash grabs. However, I do think it's nice that Disney have continued George Lucas's approach of having no grand sweeping plans or deep world building.
Don't the review embargos lift tonight?
Genuinely fascinated by all the BTS stuff that seems to have gone on with this one - 6 endings shot? Getting Uncle George back in? Palpatine being shoe-horned in?
I'm slightly hopeful this will be a decent end (for now), but not getting my hopes up.
Quote from: karlos on 17 December, 2019, 08:46:53 AM
Don't the review embargos lift tonight?
Do they? I'd better keep off the internet until I see the film then!
Quote
Genuinely fascinated by all the BTS stuff that seems to have gone on with this one
My internet investigations have revealed that BTS is a South Korean pop group - what did you mean?
Behind The Scenes?
I reckon I'll be leaving this thread alone now till after Sunday when I take the family...
Yup - Behind the scenes.
I'm pretty sure the embargo lifts at midnight tonight (or maybe tomorrow), so yes, better go dark until you see it!
[spoiler]Some early reviews are about...no details at all but the general consensus being, it's good stuff indeed.[/spoiler]
Really? That's not at all what I'm hearing....
Everyone's hearing the bits they want to hear – that's the alphabet soup they've made.
Confirmed by a spoilery Tweet: [spoiler]non-clone Palpatine[/spoiler] is indeed in the film. I just went "for fuck's sake" but I don't know why.
Quote from: blackmocco on 15 December, 2019, 11:30:04 PM
Quote from: radiator on 15 December, 2019, 10:41:15 PM
I agree with blackmocco, its shoddy writing.
the line where rey breathlessly 'explains' why she's able to pilot a ship like the falcon comes across as so shoehorned-in and inelegant to me that its almost humourous - a quick script band aid applied over a pretty gaping plot discrepancy.
It ties in to a bigger problem I have with her characterisation in general. ie If she's as capable and self-possessed as we're being told, why on Earth (Jakku?) wouldn't she just hotwire the nearest spaceship and escape this life of drudgery? Or at least take work as a pilot? Its established in earlier films that being a starship pilot is a marketable skill, and yet shes stuck being a lowly scavenger? I know there's this contrivance where they say she's 'waiting for her parents to come back', but that seems totally at odds with who she is. The character they're showing us wouldn't be so passive if she has the means of escape right at her fingertips. She'd go off and FIND the parents, surely? Like, how long's she gonna wait? Again, the explanation we're given seems like a slightly awkward fix that doesn't really ring true or make a lot of sense in context, to me at least.
I have similar issues with Finn. He seems to flip between cowardly comic relief or selfless hero depending and what the script says per given scene, and his overall chipper, cheeky demeanour doesn't square at all with his stated backstory of childhood trauma and forced conscription.
Daisy Ridley and John Boyega are tremendous actors, but they deserved characters that were a bit more fully fleshed out. As it is, the script feels really half baked and they just about get by on charisma.
Oh, and while we're at it; as much as I love Oscar Isaac, Poe should have stayed dead after the tie fighter crash, as per the original script. As a character, he works much better as a misdirect. His resurrection later on in the film makes no sense (again, its hand waved with a really clumsy line of dialogue), he feels extraneous, and his continued presence (imo) detracts from Finn's arc, that of trying to impersonate and take the mantle of a genuine hero who died saving him.
The wishy washy characterisation of the three leads is the sequel trilogies biggest weakness imo.
You know who Han is in the first five minutes of meeting him, whereas two entire films in I still don't feel like I have a handle on any of the new cast, with the exception of Kylo Ren.
Yeah, pretty much all my issues as well. And I guess the disappointing bit is they're easily fixed with a little more patience. Even just a line or two of dialogue can be enough to bridge the gap.
The Finn thing is a bigger problem for me. A deserter Imperial stormtrooper is such a wonderful idea, so ripe with potential for an interesting conflicted character and two movies in, they've done nothing worthwhile with any of it. Mind you, I guess it explains why stormtroopers are so shite at everything they do if it's that simple to just walk away from a lifetime of conditioning.
I think for me, The Force Awakens - even on first watch but more so on each subsequent rewatch - so obviously feels like a film that has been hastily chopped and changed and rewritten and re-edited right down to the wire. It feels, to me at least, like you can still clearly see the remnants of old script drafts and abandoned story threads that have been awkwardly welded together. The wonky characterisation feels like it stems from this.
Rogue One also has this problem, possibly even more than TFA.
The Last Jedi feels a lot more like it's own film, for better or worse.
Quote from: radiator on 17 December, 2019, 05:46:46 PM
Rogue One also has this problem, possibly even more than TFA.
It's true, but it's a more solid and more cohesive story and the plotholes - although very much there - are somehow less exasperating. Rogue One reshot 40% of the movie, adding the final space battle and Vader going all Vader (all changes suggested by the storyboard teams to muscle up the ending). For me, it holds up better than anything else that's been done since SW came back.
I certainly spoke too soon - reviews are super mixed, and for all manner of reasons.
I'm sure there'll be plenty of debate in the coming weeks...
Quote from: karlos on 17 December, 2019, 08:35:43 PM
I'm sure there'll be plenty of debate in the coming weeks...
Marvellous.
57% on Rotten Tomatoes. Oof. Probably not what Disney was hoping for.
To recap:
TPM: 53%
AOTC: 65%
ROTS: 80%
ANH: 93%
ESB: 94%
ROTJ: 82%
TFA: 93%
TLJ: 91%
ROS: 57%
Movies with a, shall we say, 'enthusiastic' fanbase, both positive and negative, tend to skew RT votes with concerted voting campaigns.
As for me, I've come to the conclusion that I don't really care any more - I used to absolutely love Star Wars but fans have ruined it. I'll probably go to see it after Christmas when the crowds have died down, but I will be avoiding internet discussions like the plague.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 18 December, 2019, 04:39:55 PM
Movies with a, shall we say, 'enthusiastic' fanbase, both positive and negative, tend to skew RT votes with concerted voting campaigns.
It's only a critic rating at the moment. Fan ratings don't get voted till the film publicly releases.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 18 December, 2019, 04:39:55 PM
As for me, I've come to the conclusion that I don't really care any more - I used to absolutely love Star Wars but fans have ruined it. I'll probably go to see it after Christmas when the crowds have died down, but I will be avoiding internet discussions like the plague.
This is pretty much how I feel about it.
I'll go and see it for the spectacle, in an uncritical mood. I'll probably have a beer in the cinema and get some food afterwards. It'll be a nice evening.
Let's be honest though, on the whole Star Wars just isn't very good.
From the reviews, it sounds like this could be the most Abrams-y movie Abrams has ever made... :|
Quote from: JamesC on 18 December, 2019, 06:30:19 PM
Let's be honest though, on the whole Star Wars just isn't very good.
Let's be really honest, Star Wars was amazing when we were 7 (ish) and had only ever seen Disney films at the cinema before. It was always only ever an amazing spectacle because no one had ever done anything quite like it before.
Now, forty odd years later it has been done to death. The moment Disney took it over the inevitability of being utterly overdone was upon us.
Me, I'm going to savour the experience of that opening crawl at Watford Odeon, debating favourite bits on the way to school and lusting after the action figures of yesteryear. What we have now may very well be a different beast but I'll always have Watford!
Rich Evans of RLM may have hit the nail on the head when he said, years ago (I think just after the release of TFA) that he thought that while Star Wars as a property had the illusion of great depth, it actually had very limited scope for future stories, and that Disney would struggle to continue it in a meaningful way, and I think the last few years may have possibly proved him right.
Spin-offs, side stories etc can work, but will inherently be a bit niche in appeal and seem to maybe be better suited to the medium of novels and videogames. To all intents and purposes, the mainline films had a pretty definitive ending in 1983, and it's hard to see how long you can artificially extend it beyond that until you have to start resorting to cheap tricks like just straight up resurrecting old dead characters. In some ways its a bit like Ghostbusters - it was such lightning in a bottle and such a product of its particular time and place that it's impossible to synthesize.
Or not, I'm not sure. Maybe Abrams simply wasn't the right pick for writer/director.
Quote from: Tjm86 on 18 December, 2019, 10:25:21 PM
Now, forty odd years later it has been done to death. The moment Disney took it over the inevitability of being utterly overdone was upon us.
TBH, I thought I might have lost interest in the whole Star Wars thing, but I really liked both Rogue One and Solo, I loved Clone Wars and. Rebels, and I love The Mandalorian... I think a) I've just had enough of that whole Skywalker dynasty thing, and b) these new sequels basically Just Aren't Very Good.
Quote from: radiator on 18 December, 2019, 10:47:36 PM
Rich Evans of RLM may have hit the nail on the head when he said, years ago (I think just after the release of TFA) that he thought that while Star Wars as a property had the illusion of great depth, it actually had very limited scope for future stories, and that Disney would struggle to continue it in a meaningful way, and I think the last few years may have possibly proved him right.
Spin-offs, side stories etc can work, but will inherently be a bit niche in appeal and seem to maybe be better suited to the medium of novels and videogames. To all intents and purposes, the mainline films had a pretty definitive ending in 1983, and it's hard to see how long you can artificially extend it beyond that until you have to start resorting to cheap tricks like just straight up resurrecting old dead characters. In some ways its a bit like Ghostbusters - it was such lightning in a bottle and such a product of its particular time and place that it's impossible to synthesize.
Or not, I'm not sure. Maybe Abrams simply wasn't the right pick for writer/director.
Yeah, it's a tough one to settle on. Abrams really doesn't do depth as a director but as RLM say, SW has never had much in the way of depth and when Lucas tried to introduce some nuance in the prequels, the saga collapsed in on itself. The original trilogy are just very simply told adventure stories and looked at it from that angle, it seems crazy to think there's no way to continue those adventures through sequels. Yet here we are.
Just got back from a triple bill. I thought it was dreadful, but hugely enjoyable!
Quote from: DrRocka on 19 December, 2019, 03:12:04 AM
Just got back from a triple bill. I thought it was dreadful, but hugely enjoyable!
This speaks to me.
I'm going to see it with my mates this Monday coming, it'll be fun seeing friends, munching popcorn and soaking up the CGI! It could be terrible like I thought TLJ was but as I'm no longer being invested, I'm going to be able to turn off my brain and just enjoy the spectacle!
Quote from: GrudgeJohnDeed on 19 December, 2019, 03:31:42 AM
I'm going to see it with my mates this Monday coming, it'll be fun seeing friends, munching popcorn and soaking up the CGI! It could be terrible like I thought TLJ was but as I'm no longer being invested, I'm going to be able to turn off my brain and just enjoy the spectacle!
I feel the same I will watch it for the cool special effects and great action sequences. Disney must proof to me that they can make a Star Wars movie. So far the only good stuff they made is The Mandalorian and Rogue One, the rest well is just :'(
I'll be seeing it Monday afternoon, with very low expectations and slightly pissed.
It's the only way.
Honestly, it can't win.
People who hate the previous two will say it sucks because of SJW, social marxism.
And people who loved the previous two will hate it because it intentionally did away with a lot that made TLJ great to placate to the former group.
Leonia and I really enjoyed it. It's not a perfect movie by any means, but we had a lot of fun and came out of the cinema feeling good about, and that's what counts.
Don't expect too much of it, and it won't disappoint: it's a Star Wars movie -- you get what you pay for!
I enjoyed that but I would be hard pressed to tell you why.
Not a single stand out set piece to talk about... that can't be right.
Haven't seen ROS yet, but I did get around to finally rewatching The Last Jedi, and I'm willing to hold my hand up and say that it isn't nearly as bad as I thought it was on first watch.
It certainly has its fair share of faults and odd creative decisions (most of them concerning the Finn and Poe subplots which I still find mostly either exasperating and/or boring) but I have to admire how little out and out fan service there is in the film and respect that its overall far more cohesive, ambitious and thematically rich than The Force Awakens.
Though it doesn't always succeed in what it sets out to do - probably apt for a film primarily concerned with the acceptance of failure - it actually feels like a real movie by an actual filmmaker with original ideas and not just a shallow exercise in nostalgia, and because of that stands as probably the only truly worthwhile film in the series since Return of the Jedi.
And here, at the end of it all, it's Werner Herzog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI3f5-Vdi7g) who ends up with the best line.
(https://i.imgur.com/r0enBqy.jpg)
I find the (many) bad reviews far more interesting than the (handful of) good ones.
If anything, the bad ones are making me more intrigued.
Anyway, The Mandalorian is still ace.
Pros:
Music was good.
Special effects good.
Cons:
It was a mess. No cohesive plot. Pacing all over the place. Fan lip service meant shoe-horning in folk for no good reason.
This is probably the only SW film I'm not likely to see more than once, unless it turns up on telly on a Sunday afternoon when I'm too hungover to reach for the remote.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 19 December, 2019, 08:39:56 AM
Honestly, it can't win.
People who hate the previous two will say it sucks because of SJW, social marxism.
And people who loved the previous two will hate it because it intentionally did away with a lot that made TLJ great to placate to the former group.
Yeah, there's a lot of that doing the rounds off of knobheads with channels on youtube. the thing is, I disliked the previous two. Maybe not TFA so much because it was what it was, a soft reboot and hugely derivative fan service. It was mediocre the more I thought about it after the dust settled, but TLJ was a flat out mess and I've no plans on ever watching it again. I don't put any of this down to bollocks excuses like politics. I leave that for the mentalists out there to come out with that shit. The problem with thinking like that is that you'll see what you want to see regardless of reason or logic. It's toxic as fuck, and boring.
After watching this last night, it's just clear that the entire thing was just a really badly written trilogy from start to finish with no real plan, which is at the heart of the problem and absolute madness as far as Disney are concerned. It's like getting a chef to cook you a meal, only for him/her to leave half way during the preparation and serving the appetiser and another with a completely different style to come in and serve you something else out of the blue half way through eating it.
The thing is - and what most people don't seem to realise - is that almost all serial storytelling, including movie trilogies, book series and especially TV series are completely made up on the fly. The original Star Wars trilogy was constantly in flux from film to film, and was worked on by an array of different screenwriters and directors. Do you really think they intended Luke and Leia be siblings from the very beginning? Back to the Future 2 and 3 were totally tacked on after the fact. The writers of Breaking Bad were flying by the seat of their pants. I'm pretty sure that the majority of writers or writing teams at most have only a vague outline of an eventual ending in mind, which is totally subject to change in the making. Check out George RR Martin's original pitch outline for A Song of Ice & Fire to see what I mean.
Making it
look like there was a plan all along -
that's the real achievement. It's a miracle that so many series somehow
don't go completely off the rails.
The main problem with this trilogy is that it was obviously rushed into production. They should have stuck to the original Star Wars schedule of one film every three years, not two, and put a lot more work into the scripts. But Disney had release dates set in stone from the moment the ink was dry on the sale of Lucasfilm.
QuoteTLJ was a flat out mess and I've no plans on ever watching it again
I would cautiously suggest a rewatch. I viscerally disliked the film first time I saw it, and have changed my mind on it a bit since.
A lot of these movies you mentioned got equals just because the original made a ton of money. They never had any future plans when the first movie was made. I still think the problem with the current trilogy is that their was no clear outline what they want to achieve. Writers were hired and fired and at the end the director became one of the co-writers (and the movies suffer because of this). The worst decision was to try and remake the original trilogy and by stage 2 it looked like Johnson want to be controversial by turning everything on its head. It still feels to me the movies were made by people who do not know Star Wars at all.
Quote from: broodblik on 21 December, 2019, 04:53:01 AM
Writers were hired and fired and at the end the director became one of the co-writers (and the movies suffer because of this).
The directors hired for the trilogy (Abrams, Trevorrow) were co-writers from the very beginning — apart from Johnson, who was sole writer.
Quote from: broodblik on 21 December, 2019, 04:53:01 AM
It still feels to me the movies were made by people who do not know Star Wars at all.
The Last Jedi basically lost me right at the start with the 'can you hold' joke. It wasn't a bad joke, TBH, but what it said to me was: "The people writing and directing this movie have no interest in even pretending that this is a story set a long time ago in a galaxy far away". Right there, writ large on the screen.
For me, that meant I spent a couple of hours knowing I was watching someone's conscious 'take' on Star Wars rather than an
actual Star Wars movie.
I watched Episode IX and it was for me by far the best of the trilogy. I enjoyed it and it was a fun ride.X
Just out. Man that was some overblown illogical nonsense.
But I loved it. It was go big or go home time for the franchise, and it did both. Went in completely unspoiled, haven't seen so much as an emoticon of response, and was glad of it.
Made me feel the feels and no mistake.
For the first time EVER, my youngest turned to me when it had finished and asked when we could go back and see it again. His brother agreed. Theyve never done this, as for years now one visit to the cinema then possibly dvd has been the norm.
To say they loved it is an understatement, and the same is true for me. By far my favourite modern Star Wars movie- just edging out Solo.
A serious downer today that the saga is over, and counting the days til we go back.
SBT
Addendum: as a follow-on to an earlier post, my lad decided to come along today, entirely off his own bat, he'll be seeing it for a second time tomorrow with his mates Further feels were felt.
My initial non-spoilery reaction is that I owe Abrams an apology. This a conclusion that really does pick up the dangling threads of the first one, and even some bits of the second, and ties them up neatly, even allowing one to believe (momentarily) that there was a plan after all. To paraphrase a wise scoundrel, I don't mean to suggest that I like all the decisions, I don't agree with many of them, but but I can accept them. Cos it was fun, and it was spectacular, and despite severe cameoitis it gave the new characters the stage.
And if YuckTube thought TLJ broke the 'rules' of SW space combat, they'd best stay at home!
Quote from: broodblik on 21 December, 2019, 04:53:01 AM
A lot of these movies you mentioned got equals just because the original made a ton of money. They never had any future plans when the first movie was made. I still think the problem with the current trilogy is that their was no clear outline what they want to achieve. Writers were hired and fired and at the end the director became one of the co-writers (and the movies suffer because of this). The worst decision was to try and remake the original trilogy and by stage 2 it looked like Johnson want to be controversial by turning everything on its head. It still feels to me the movies were made by people who do not know Star Wars at all.
Yeah, I think someone somewhere along the line should have had at least one eye on the overall direction of the trilogy, maybe have a few of the broad strokes of the plot mapped out at least.
Empire is probably THE defining middle chapter in modern pop culture. Its just perfect. It expands the world of the original and adds a darker, more adult tone. It deepens its characters on an emotional level and puts all of them through the ringer, before ending on an amazing cliffhanger and a moment of resolve and hope.
TLJ has a swing at all of this, but forgets to set up the next film, and feels like a season finale of a TV show more than a bridging chapter in a trilogy. It just sort of ends with the status quo reset to how things were back in the very first movie of the series. Leia leading a Rebellion, a Darth Vader type chasing her down. A young Jedi in training. It kinda makes you wonder what the point of it all is, or where you even go from there.
That specific criticism only makes sense if you assume there *wasn't* a plan for the next film, or that if there wasn't one LFL weren't capable of coming up with one that developed the situation. For my money as a punter, having no idea of where the story would go was exciting.
After watching ROS it almost felt that you can skip TLJ and just start at TFA.
Well watched it this afternoon and most important thing is the kids loved it. Not their best, but they loved it. Personally think thing given that it was always going to do what it was going to do to try to bring the story back on track* after the wonderful Last Jedi it wasn't as bad as I was dreading. In fact I enjoyed vaste swathes of it. The first hour, hour and half were immense fun. Then it started to buckle in the weight of quite how much it was trying to pack in and what it was trying to achieve and things began to lose space to breathe. Then it got a little too Force Awakens making the same mistakes. I felt it was a cowardly movie during the second third. The last bit was over the top nonsense but to be fair just about held together and pretty much made the landing... just.
It will be very interesting to see how this one survivies re-watch as I think more problems will wash out as the spectacle of it all loses some of its intitial impact. But for now I'll settle for the fact it was on the whole a decent, always entertaining action romp that while misguided did do some things very very well and made its mistakes about as well as it could have hoped to.
*In the thoughts and minds of many - though in my head that's exactly what Last Jedi did for me. Made Star Wars what it should be again, exciting, original in a comfortable way and fresh.
Tiny Tips reckons he's hating it more as time passes; he came out feeling ambivalent on Thursday.
The big thing for me is the lack of a stand out "iconic" set piece... the action was functional at best but there was no "fuck it, here's three minutes of pure whizz bang".
Even the prequels managed that.
Feck the fandom menace begrudgers.
It's a greatest hits, an easter-egg hunt, a 'sum of all' Star Wars tropes; and even though it takes careless, mad short-cuts into narrative ditches, it manages to pay-off in ways I didn't think it would: emotionally, thematically and – dare I say – as an ending.
Recklessy entertaining, entertainingly reckless, I don't care.
It's Star Wars and it worked for me.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 21 December, 2019, 11:27:31 PM
The big thing for me is the lack of a stand out "iconic" set piece... the action was functional at best but there was no "fuck it, here's three minutes of pure whizz bang".
I think that's a good observation, there was little time for any one thing to breath in terms of a individual sequence. I can pick two: I thought the final space battle was jaw-dropping, despite being entirely silly in terms of scale; and I thought a certain character's last act was beautifully handled. Perhaps this is the sort of thing that will sort itself out in the noggin on re-watches, when the pace is less of an issue.
As it stands, I'm very glad they went nuts and stuffed the film to bursting. I liked that they managed to do a lot of new things in amongst all the greatest hits, and despite scepticism enjoyed the additional characters. It's not necessarily what I wanted to see, in that it drifted away from themes I was invested in, but it was warm and exciting and satisfying as a conclusion and I enjoyed it a great deal.
My one real regret is that [spoiler]Poe[/spoiler] turned out to be straight after all - now there was a missed opportunity.
What's next?
Quote from: TordelBack on 22 December, 2019, 06:41:00 AM
What's next?
A break so we can all catch breathe and these things can become significent again.
Quote from: TordelBack on 22 December, 2019, 06:41:00 AM
What's next?
Watch the original three as a reminder of what well crafted Star Wars films look like.
It was Return of the Jedi for us last night, a wonderful Xmas film, a superbly choreographed and exciting last third, and a prime example of how to complete a film franchise.
I saw it front row of IMAX while in the middle of a stinking cold so am really looking forward to a rewatch where I can see the whole screen.
Tiny Tips other observation was that it felt like two films squeezed into one. Maybe FORCE AWAKENS and this were the trilogy JJ had in his head and he just went with his original ideas in half the running time. I can imagine the actual opening scenes with [spoiler]Palpatine[/spoiler] might have been a good cliffhanger.
I did cringe at this trilogy version of "From a certain point of view..."
I'd have added [spoiler]a spaceship full of Porg to the final battle though.[/spoiler] Tell me that wouldn't have got it an extra star in most reviews.
Yeah, not enough [spoiler]porgs[/spoiler] was an issue: I'd assumed [spoiler]the Falcon would still be infested[/spoiler]. I was also hoping for some reference to/re-connection with L3.
All the Threepio stuff was surprisingly great, though, and I like D-O and Babu Frik a lot.
Also, this popped up, which helps make sense of The Rise of Skywalker script and plot decisions:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2zZFtq13c4
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 22 December, 2019, 10:47:21 AM
Also, this popped up, which helps make sense of The Rise of Skywalker script and plot decisions:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2zZFtq13c4
Well that was fecking moronic. Not only vapid and irritatingly presented, but factually incorrect and ignoring some key points (in particular things in TFA that do now line up with elements in RoS). And after 2 years of listening to the same smug gobdaws wishing TLJ was erased from history, I'm not going to start listening to them whining about elements from TLJ being dropped.
I'm flummoxed that people think it is in any way a cohesive, well written, and enjoyable film. It's a mess!
Even my partner on leaving the screening commented "who the fuck gave amphetamines to the chimps who wrote that dogshit?" which summed up perfectly the turmoil going on in my head.
I quite liked Force Awakens. I very much enjoyed The Last Jedi, particularly Luke's story arc. Rogue One was just brilliant, and Solo was a cracking sci-fi heist movie.
But this one is utter bollocks.
I don't think anyone is denying that it's utter bollocks! I just think it's very enjoyable bollocks, with some decent and quite emotional payoffs. And doing that call-response style of narrative mockery on YouTube works for the plot of almost any action movie, hence vapid.
They already tried a well-written SW movie, 'everybody' hated it. This one is more like The (Brendan Fraser) Mummy, with a few clever ideas and some kewl looking fights. There are at least two major story elements I'd change completely, at least one main character has no arc of any kind (despite being handed the seeds of a great one) and some slightly ropey character CGI in places, but as an OTT splurge that tied off some plot threads and landed a few emotional punches, it worked for me.
All the 'emotional impact' bits just seemed like one last opportunity to shoehorn in some fan appeasement to me, therefore killing (for me at least) any emotional engagement.
Colour me totally bemused. Ah well, people like what they like I suppose. Horses for courses etc.
Keeping my feelings for the film corralled to this 'safe space', as there's a lot of bizarre love for this film out there, and I don't want to piss on anyone's social media parade.
Very sensible approach! Ah look, I get why it wouldn't float your boat - it was touch-and-go for me at the start, I was very put out by the bizarre Fortnite-crossover crawl and while excited by all the new stuff (I like new stuff) we saw in the first 5 minutes, I was taken aback by the breathless pace. But I soon crumbled in the face of deft handling of Leia, the Threepio stuff and the general warmth of it all, and once on board the whole thing carried me along through its utter daftness just fine. Even though I groaned in near despair at the Big Revelation, I think it worked well in the kind of film it was.
The criticism that the plot amounts a series of video game maguffin quests is valid, but it's also an effective way to send the whole gang off on light-hearted bonding adventures in the midst of events that are not light-hearted at all. This was the big element missing from TLJ (which I much preferred), and it was a good call to do it here - albeit at a stupidly accelerated rate.
Despite my positive reaction, it's probably my least favourite of the Sequels (although that may change on subsequent viewings), but this has been true of the third film of each trilogy, so maybe I just don't like endings. Or maybe the Sequels have just been way better than I was expecting.
Yeah, even with dampened expectations going in, this was a fucking slog to get through. Only my workmates stopped me from leaving halfway through out of sheer boredom. Was hoping I'd at least be entertained but I'm pretty sure I hated every single moment of it bar [spoiler]the last five minutes with Rey on Tatooine burying the sabres.[/spoiler] But as all that imagery is just cut and paste from a better movie - JJ's only shtick - they can even stick that up their hole.
Abrams is a terrible storyteller. Just utterly appalling. Bigger's always better with this guy and by the time 400,000 star destroyers were rising out of the giant icecube [spoiler]where they've apparently spent thirty years just sitting around scratching their arses for no reason whatsoever,[/spoiler] I felt like my brain was bleeding. I don't expect high art from a SW movie, I get it, but just a little logic, a little genuine thought being applied would have helped me out rather than just zipping from one elaborate set-piece to another. 2 and a half straight hours of "wait, what?" doesn't cut it.
Just glad it's all over. Now they need to put it to bed for a few years and let someone new take a crack at it. Probably NOT what Disney were hoping for as a response. Their own fault. It's either arrogant or clueless (most likely a mixture of both) to assume these movies were good to go without any sort of plan or arc and frankly, if they're not going to put the effort in, then why should I? You get what you give.
Just saw it. I found the start a bit of a rushed slog - which is a complete contradiction in terms, I know, but that's how it felt. I.e there's a big [spoiler]rushed explanation of something[/spoiler], and my emotional response was boredom, or something close akin. ([spoiler]although I suppose it could be argued to be brave that they introduced the returned Palpatine straight away, considering you'd expect that to be a big thing at the end... although that was already spoiled, to be fair [/spoiler]But then I got caught up in it quickly.
Some stuff could have used some explanation, and didn't make much sense, but I loved it. Part of me feels slightly embarrassed that I loved it - it does get quite sentimental near the end - but my reaction was to feel touched rather than disgusted. Maybe I'm just a big girls blouse/big boy's shirt*.
I wish they'd done more with [spoiler] The Knights of Den. I hoped they'd be those students who followed Ben after he attacked Luke and fled, but in the end they just seemed to be Ren's personal squad, and cannon fodder. That does raise the question, what did happen to those other students? Maybe they're all dead now or they never actually turned to the dark side and just split up.[/spoiler] I guess it's not that important for the main story.
*Thought I'd add that in case the former phrase is deemed sexist.
Not an out and out travesty but definitely on the underwhelming side. Story was laughably mechanical a to b maguffin chasing and often borderline gibberish. I was mildly entertained throughout, but never once emotionally engaged, and agree that there were no real standout, memorable set-pieces.
The pacing of the film overall (but especially the first 40 minutes or so) is frantic to the point of bewilderment - the storytelling is so choppy and there's so much cross-talk that it feels like we're watching The Goonies or something, and dialogue from one scene and location awkwardly bleeds into the next, as if the script can't keep up with the editing.
You have to just basically switch your brain off and accept that you're watching a saturday morning cartoon level script that was filmed with a $250m budget and just enjoy the spectacle I guess.
There's no way I'm getting worked up about it though - I'm so mentally checked out of this series at this point that I'm genuinely still chuckling away to myself at just how bald-faced some of the nonsensical reveals, resolutions and Last Jedi retcons were, and I was able to enjoy it for what it was.
Definitely time for a rethink of the whole thing I think, perhaps taking a cue from the more deliberate, focused and overall more classical stylings of The Mandalorian.
The whole storyline felt like a lot of stitch-together stories. There is no cohesion with the previous parts of the trilogy. Each part felt like the current director/writer was trying to undo what the previous director/writer did. Most of the script felt forced by the actors especially the original trilogy cast. I always say a good actor can carry a weak story but not the reverse. Buy still for all this I enjoyed the movie.
The story is so convoluted that it makes The Force Awakens seem like an exercise in narrative economy by contrast. It really is quite something. The funniest parts are when character arcs are set up and resolved within a single scene, or how certain narrative problems get resolved. Lost the wayfinder? Good job there was a backup stashed in the spaceship you flew here in! What luck! It's one giant shrug in screenplay form. Really quite remarkable.
Re: the [spoiler]second wayfinder, of course it was in Kylo Ren's ship, he found and use it in the prologue, how else was he getting to and from from Exagul? OTOH, this isn't the ship he was using, that one crashed on Passana...
[/spoiler]
I took all the Bolt sprogs as well as my sister in law and my two nephews to see it yesterday, and have to say that it was a hoot. I thoroughly enjoyed it, but then I also enjoy the X-men films at the cinema too.
I knew there was something 'off' with the plot when I laughed innappropriately at the apparent death of a major character.
I also think that: [spoiler]When Leia lay down and force spoke to Kylo, she became him. It was said in the film that Leia stopped her training when she forsaw that the end of her path lead to the death of her son, so when she spoke to him in the ruin of the Death star she actually merged with him and that is why he changed his character and why they both 'ghosted' at the same time.[/spoiler]
I reckon Poe was attracted to the space-lady whose never I never caught because of the helmet. We've all seen how attached he is to the droid...
Oh, and I love that Pepe the prawn from the Muppets has found a new job.
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 23 December, 2019, 03:12:32 PM
I also think that: [spoiler]When Leia lay down and force spoke to Kylo, she became him. It was said in the film that Leia stopped her training when she forsaw that the end of her path lead to the death of her son, so when she spoke to him in the ruin of the Death star she actually merged with him and that is why he changed his character and why they both 'ghosted' at the same time.[/spoiler]
Well now you've said it it seems bloomin' obvious - now where's that things that went over my head thread?
I just got back from seeing it, definitely agree with the 'enjoyable bollocks' appraisal. It was a messy, overloaded film and had plenty of silly moments but I had a good time just soaking it all up! Enjoyed the action and got hit in the feels a couple of times. We all felt very similarly about the film too, which doesn't often happen.
As has been mentioned by others it definitely seemed to me like he was trying to cram two films into one, having to set lots of new stuff up and explain other things away after ep8.
Finally fulfilled my obligation.
I think I remember hearing somewhere that every scene in a movie should have a beginning middle and an end and should have a point. The scenes in this movie definitely had a point, but for the most part were completely devoid of structure. This was a movie shot in bullet points. It's frustrating because this movie could've been the trilogy, there's enough interesting stuff there. Just lift Luke's stuff from The Last Jedi and drop it in somewhere.
[spoiler]What was the super important thing Finn had to tell Rey?[/spoiler]
Quote from: Mister Pops on 24 December, 2019, 08:02:32 PM
[spoiler]What was the super important thing Finn had to tell Rey?[/spoiler]
[spoiler]He senses the force.[/spoiler]
Absolutely nonsense - chasing "wayfinders" all over the place so you can find the mysterious Sith homeworld? They built one thousand Star Destroyers and fully crewed the whole armada - out of what? Fresh air? Surely someone would have noticed all the materials, the "recruited" soldiers being shipped out to the "Unknown Spaces" (god I loathe that term - it's so lazy)
In addition, unfortunately, I think Daisy Ridley is very uncoordinated and is basically not athletic at all. She must have had plenty of fencing or sword training during the process of shooting the three movies but she still wields that light sabre like someone trying to swat a wasp with a broom.
3/10
I remember really looking forward to the Force Awakens and it started of sooo well. The first thirty minutes were fantastic - I literally watched it with a massive smile of my face. Then we got rehash (Star Killer base), complete breaking of the rules of the universe that story is set in (the ludicrous Holdo manoeuver of the Last Jedi), confusing attempts to recycle old characters with no clear purpose and finally with this film, for me, just apathy and boredom.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 24 December, 2019, 08:10:36 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 24 December, 2019, 08:02:32 PM
[spoiler]What was the super important thing Finn had to tell Rey?[/spoiler]
[spoiler]He senses the force.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]I think it would be that he wanted, to use the common parlance, "to tap that!".[/spoiler]
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 24 December, 2019, 09:59:23 PM
[spoiler]I think it would be that he wanted, to use the common parlance, "to tap that!".[/spoiler]
Not according to the Star Wars peeps (https://www.indiewire.com/2019/12/john-boyega-finn-rey-loves-her-rise-of-skywalker-1202199045/).
Finn's [spoiler]pressing secret was made blindingly obvious, and is well signposted from the opening scenes of TFA on to Maz's Castle and beyond. He openly discusses it with Jannah in this one, [/spoiler]so I'm mystified how so many online commentators seem to have missed it, and seem to think Abrams only added it in interviews.
As it, and Jannah's story, are essentially the fulfillment of the [spoiler]Boy with a Broom Principle[/spoiler], it's doubly odd that it went under so many radars.
They couldn't have made Finn's 'Leia moment in the Falcon' more obvious as the awakenings continue.
I was seven years old when I saw Star Wars at the cinema, and now I got to take my seven year old daughter to see the most recent Star Wars movie. She applauded at one point, and whooped with joy when the cavalry came charging over the hill (that's the metaphorical cavalry, as opposed to the actual cavalry). Walking back up to the house from the car she was humming the theme music.
So, critically, it doesn't hold up well against the 1977 movie - mostly because it's trying to be the same but different - but at the same time it's got some wonderful escapism. All those kids who saw Star Wars and dreamed of making their own version of it: well, some of them get to. They're really expensive, well made fan films. The story began with Star Wars and managed to propel itself into two successful sequels that extended and then completed the story: both of the Empire vs. the Rebellion and also of the dynastic struggle between good and evil - and the idea that redemption could be won for even the most fallen of heroes.
I think the ultimate problem with the prequels is that they have to lead into that (so don't get to tell their own story), and the sequels didn't choose to tell a new story: they just echo the first one like ripples in a pond. It's nice to look at ripples in a pond, though.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 25 December, 2019, 04:48:45 AMI think the ultimate problem with the prequels is that they have to lead into that (so don't get to tell their own story)
Instead of using the same characters from the OT (whose story had already been told) they could've told their own story if they'd gone with a new set of central characters we know nothing about during the era of the political coup.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 24 December, 2019, 10:55:25 PM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 24 December, 2019, 09:59:23 PM
[spoiler]I think it would be that he wanted, to use the common parlance, "to tap that!".[/spoiler]
Not according to the Star Wars peeps (https://www.indiewire.com/2019/12/john-boyega-finn-rey-loves-her-rise-of-skywalker-1202199045/).
Sorry more phone cut me off "[spoiler]tap that force sensitivity that he felt growing".[/spoiler]
Nobody likes a smart-arse dinosaur! :lol:
One of the things that surprised me most about ROS was how much I enjoyed the different-space-horses-on-the-hull-of-a-Star-Destroyer bit. I absolutely hated the look of that in the trailers and as it turned out to be both something original and a kick-ass battle sequence, probably the best one in the sequels for my money.
Watching TFA on telly yesterday, I was really buoyed to see the way ROS builds on scenes and lines that had seemed for all the world to be non-sequiturs and dead-ends, especially in the light of TLJ: it's something I really hadn't expected from Abrams. I'm greatly looking forward to a second look at ROS after this week, not least to work out for how long Luke and Leia knew Rey's story.
Quote from: Sinx on 24 December, 2019, 09:23:47 PM
In addition, unfortunately, I think Daisy Ridley is very uncoordinated and is basically not athletic at all. She must have had plenty of fencing or sword training during the process of shooting the three movies but she still wields that light sabre like someone trying to swat a wasp with a broom.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kinja-img.com%2Fgawker-media%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--dPOYvdg5--%2Fc_fit%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_80%2Cw_636%2Fdjusacriqlxneaillkfz.gif&f=1&nofb=1)
Probably going to be seeing it next week.
Maybe.
If I can be bothered.
I'm so tired of SW guys.
Quote from: von Boom on 25 December, 2019, 07:08:29 PM
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kinja-img.com%2Fgawker-media%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--dPOYvdg5--%2Fc_fit%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_80%2Cw_636%2Fdjusacriqlxneaillkfz.gif&f=1&nofb=1)
I love this kid! He reminds me so much of me and my mates trying to batter each other with big sticks in the guise of lightsabers back in the day.
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 26 December, 2019, 12:47:15 PM
Quote from: von Boom on 25 December, 2019, 07:08:29 PM
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kinja-img.com%2Fgawker-media%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--dPOYvdg5--%2Fc_fit%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_80%2Cw_636%2Fdjusacriqlxneaillkfz.gif&f=1&nofb=1)
I love this kid! He reminds me so much of me and my mates trying to batter each other with big sticks in the guise of lightsabers back in the day.
His life never really moved past that point alas. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_Aevpv8Faw)
That's very sad.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 26 December, 2019, 11:08:10 AM
I'm so tired of SW guys.
But us SW guys still like you...!
Oddly my interest has seldom been higher, with both ROS and Mandalorian putting a smile on my face.
My FiL was just this minute opining "SW is over, it's had its time", which I thought was interesting - from where I'm sitting SW had had its time by the mid-80s, not clawing its way back into anything other than pure nostalgia until the later 90s, with another palpable lull in the early Teens as Clone Wars, a superior show by any measure, tailed off in popularity. SW is doing a lot better now than in either of this periods.
Yeah, I stayed with Kylie after leaving PWL and through Deconstruction and she became popular again. Same for Star Wars.
https://twitter.com/reylo4life/status/1140800597458870272
I won't labour the point but I greatly enjoyed The Rise Of Skywalker, considerably more on the second viewing actually, and I found it a satisfying conclusion to this trilogy.
Daisy Ridley's acting was far more assured and consistent in this film and the storyline hit many effective emotional beats for me.
The movie was paced well and there weren't the lulls present in the previous two.
Sure, there were plot contrivances, but the entire saga has suffered from those, so it's unfair to level that criticism at this film alone.
Also the film benefited from real emotional heft, something the prequels almost totally lacked-that coupled with the tying up of most of the plot threads, makes it something of a minor triumph for me.
Another fantastic John Williams score too!
Quote from: dweezil2 on 26 December, 2019, 09:19:28 PM
Another fantastic John Williams score too!
The last John Williams score (for Star Wars, at any rate).
That whole film was just utter nonsense. I can't even be bothered to list everything that was wrong with it, but the internet is full of reviews that explain why it was awful and I agree with them all. The film studio must hold all the fans in total contempt -- in fact, maybe this is their revenge for the barrage of criticism they got for Episode 8? (I quite liked that one.) Now that I think about it, it's the only credible explanation for how bad this film is -- Hollywood is trolling the entire world in reprisal. Viewed like that, I now think that this film is actually brilliant.
Well if the internet says it's awful, it must be true. Those guys are never wrong.
Meanwhile those of us who enjoy these films, despite their flaws, are clearly morons.
I do not give a damn what the internet thinks about anything. You get some vocal people on the internet and now suddenly they are the view of everyone. The voices on the internet in most cases are the minority. I enjoyed the latest episode, so I am glad to be a moron. Does it now even out if I did not like the previous episode.
You are someone on the internet!
Nah, I'm on the sofa. The internet is uncomfortable.
I watched it yesterday with Mrs IP. And to bring some balance to the Force-rum – er, forum – I thought it was fun. Also, I prefer this trilogy to the original. Come at me with pitchforks. I don't care. The first three are tighter but also messy in some major beats. They are men men menny men men + Smurfette. I just found these new ones interesting and fun, with a decent lack of really irritating major protagonists (the Ewoks can get to drokk), and it was nice that in the few decades since the original films that women were allowed to exist. So my take is:
I–III: irredeemable boring crap
IV–VI: fun but dated fantasy bobbins
VII–IX: fun but messy fantasy bobbins
Rogue One: fab but entirely unnecessary filler
Solo: it's just there
I thought it stuck the landing. It worked for me. Perhaps it helps that Star Wars for me is just another property I grew up with. I'm not really invested in this to the degree some of you obviously are. But where as, for me, I–III were entirely unnecessary and detracted from the original, these new three at worst came out even.
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 December, 2019, 10:53:38 AM
Nah, I'm on the sofa. The internet is uncomfortable.
Ha! You however do win the internet -
again.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 December, 2019, 11:13:31 AM
Perhaps it helps that Star Wars for me is just another property I grew up with. I'm not really invested in this to the degree some of you obviously are.
Forgive me, but may I direct you to this two-hour YouTube video I've made which explains
how VERY WRONG YOU ARE...?
Ha! Quite. TBH, it perhaps helps that Mrs IP and I both went into this film thinking we'd come out thinking meh. But we both found it very enjoyable – certainly, far more than most of the recent Marvel movies. (I liked Ragnarok and the first Spidey one; Mrs G would add Black Panther to that list.)
But then I'm also quite happy to do an Alan Moore ("the books are still on the shelves") or just end a series in my mind wherever I like (such as there being no Matrix or Jurassic Park sequels). I'm glad I didn't have to do that with this film, mind. Enjoyment beats dissatisfaction any day.
Enjoyed it while I was watching it but it didn't make an ounce of sense.
Quote from: I, Cosh on 28 December, 2019, 05:21:22 PM
Enjoyed it while I was watching it but it didn't make an ounce of sense.
The all-purpose Abrams review!
You mean she had Chewie's medal the whole time?
😂
Quote from: Eamonn Clarke on 28 December, 2019, 06:28:44 PM
You mean she had [spoiler]Chewie's medal[/spoiler] the whole time?
😂
You do have to wonder[spoiler] about the cruelty inherent in leaving him undecorated for 35 years[/spoiler] when all that was needed was a stepladder!
I know it wasn't the intent, but I choose to believe that [spoiler]this was Han's medal[/spoiler], that she was passing on.
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 December, 2019, 07:07:08 PMI know it wasn't the intent, but I choose to believe that [spoiler]this was Han's medal[/spoiler], that she was passing on.
It was, wasn't it?
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 December, 2019, 07:07:08 PM
You do have to wonder[spoiler] about the cruelty inherent in leaving him undecorated for 35 years[/spoiler] when all that was needed was a stepladder!
Or a table.
(https://static3.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/weekly-97-3.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=738&h=1097)
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 28 December, 2019, 07:27:39 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 December, 2019, 07:07:08 PMI know it wasn't the intent, but I choose to believe that [spoiler]this was Han's medal[/spoiler], that she was passing on.
It was, wasn't it?
Reckon, based on [spoiler]her gripping of it earlier (a symbol of Han doing the right thing, and coming back to her) but in the end it was played as if Chewie was finally getting his[/spoiler].
Nice bit of old Marvel there!
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 December, 2019, 05:39:53 PM
Quote from: I, Cosh on 28 December, 2019, 05:21:22 PM
Enjoyed it while I was watching it but it didn't make an ounce of sense.
The all-purpose Abrams review!
I'd say that Rise of Skywalker is to The Force Awakens what Into Darkness is to Star Trek 2009 - the first movie is decently entertaining but has some really glaring plot weirdness that diminishes rewatchability, whereas the follow-up film is entirely too plot-heavy while having very little actual
story, and also just completely drops any semblance of verisimilitude and is borderline gibberish.
I still like aspects of both of the first movies, but I'll likely never watch either of their (Abrams-directed) sequels again.
[spoiler]Here's the thing. Palpatine created Anakin by manipulating force energy in Smee Skywalker, right? Like thats pretty much confirmed in Episode III. And as Ben Solo's Grandfather, and Rey's half sister, isn't the whole Kylo Ren and Rey thing....
God fucking damn it Star Wars.[/spoiler]
Quote from: sheridan on 26 December, 2019, 10:39:10 PM
Quote from: dweezil2 on 26 December, 2019, 09:19:28 PM
Another fantastic John Williams score too!
The last John Williams score (for Star Wars, at any rate).
Yeah, read that too!
Must be hard to come up with anything fresh on the composition front and nine films is a pretty good run, so I reckon he's more than earnt his retirement from the franchise! :)
Saw it last night. I went in remembering all fuss made about the plot holes in TFA and goodness me there were a lot in this one as well. Too many to list I'm sure, so here are just the ones that come most easily to mind:
So Anakin programmed 3PO to not translate Sith - really?
They just happen to find the dagger - with out even really bothering to look for it.
How come Rey has way more force powers than any other Jedi before? Not even Yoda could bring down a transport ship.
When our heroes arrive on the planet looking for the Wayfinder a load of Tie Fighter buzz the festival, but they are nowhere to be seen when the First Order are pursuing them.
Palpatine must have some serious project management skills to have built all those ships, recruited and trained all the crews.
Where are all the other First Order ships?
How come the Star Destroyer guns can't shoot a boarding party on their hull?
How come the Star Destroyer can't just do a manoeuvre to shake them off?
How come the falling Star Destroyer over Jakku happens to fall right next the one that was there already?
I know some of these things don't really matter, but still.
I also thought the film lacked any emotional resonance and a load of so called surprises where completely telegraphed or just obvious:
Leia's death
Hux shooting those Storm Troopers
Chewie not being dead.
It also felt like it wasn't the completion of a trilogy, rather a new story. It was as if TLJ hadn't happened, apart from Luke being dead. And the return of Palpatine seemed to be plucked out of nowhere.
My boy though loved it and he's nine. And we forget Star Wars is intended for kids.
I can't make you enjoy the movie, but I can help with a few of these - but by no means all! Bear in mind I have only seen the film once so far, and haven't read any of the supporting material so I'm probably talking a fair amount of shite...
Quote from: Magnetica on 01 January, 2020, 12:55:26 PM
So Anakin programmed 3PO to not translate Sith - really?
[spoiler]Anakin didn't programme Threepio - he says he built him out of scavenged parts. The brain/databank was already intact. Note that Threepio retains these in-built abilities both times his memory is wiped. Even the Chosen One isn't fluent in 6 million (plus 1) forms of communication.[/spoiler]
QuoteThey just happen to find the dagger - with out even really bothering to look for it.
[spoiler]Sort-of, but they are on the same trail as the agent that had it, so it's not totally random. The dagger is basically stupid, an element held over from a Sith-artefact subplot that ran through the books and comics but never really got a foothold in the actual bloody movies.[/spoiler]
QuoteHow come Rey has way more force powers than any other Jedi before? Not even Yoda could bring down a transport ship.
[spoiler]Rey's an exceptional being, one of only two individuals of such raw power that Luke has encountered, both of whom form one half of a unique Force Dyad that have Anakin and Palpatine as grandparents, and potentially their ancestors were created through Midichlorian manipulation techniques of Darth Plagueis. 'Darkness rises, and the Light to meet it".
And who says Yoda couldn't bring down a transport? He does exactly that in the non-canonical Tartakovsky Clone Wars, and canonically Size Matters Not.[/spoiler]
QuotePalpatine must have some serious project management skills to have built all those ships, recruited and trained all the crews
.
[spoiler]He did it once before, even while double-jobbing as Chancellor! While Obi-Wan sniffed out his cloning sub-contractors, he also got a fleet of Star Destroyers, transports and fighters built for them at a time when the Republic was demilitarised. It's a plot point that the Sith fleet is largely crewed by clones, and even so badly undermanned requiring the increased conscription efforts we see referenced[/spoiler].
QuoteWhere are all the other First Order ships?
[spoiler]Feck knows. That bit really annoys me - after defeating the 'Final Order' Sith fleet, the First Order presumably remains largely intact. I presume the intention is that Hope has returned to the galaxy, and the People overthrow them. But that bit is completely undeveloped, and it annoys me, since it's the whole point of both TLJ and TROS.
[/spoiler]
QuoteHow come the falling Star Destroyer over Jakku happens to fall right next the one that was there already?
[spoiler]Jakku is covered in crashed destroyers. We see are least 3 in TFA, and that's just in Rey's corner of it. I won't annoy you by citing other media, but canonically Jakku is the site of the Empire's final defeat (albeit actually a ruse).
[/spoiler]
Quote
And the return of Palpatine seemed to be plucked out of nowhere.
[spoiler]The annoying thing is that it's reasonably well foreshadowed in TFA in the way Kylo apparently hears Vader talking to him, which we know can't be true since Ani was redeemed: it always seemed likely that it was Palp's spirit doing that. The problem was that this was never developed in TLJ, and then Palp's actual return took place in a Fortnite event. That my friends is bullshit.[/spoiler]
Thanks Tordels- great answers.
I don't read any of the books or comics and haven't watched anything other than the movies that have been in the cinema, so anything outside of that is a mystery to me.
Thanks Tordelback - some of those I'd have guessed myself (Jakku covered in remnants of Empire vehicles and weapons) others I didn't know about.
Finally, saw it.
Yeah...
Entertaining dogshit, isn't it?
QuoteI went in remembering all fuss made about the plot holes in TFA and goodness me there were a lot in this one as well.
Yeah, it makes the messy story of TFA look like a tightly-constructed swiss watch by comparison, doesn't it... How innocent we were back in 2015! :lol:
Yep....how I pine for those heady days of 2016 :lol:.
[spoiler] I enjoyed it as a crowd-pleaser, not reading too much into it I found it funny, dramatic and with all the beats expected. I do wonder what the trilogy would have been like if JJ Abrams had directed all of it, he mostly wrested it back into more familiar territory after the direction Rian Johnson had taken it in. Loved the Death Star wreck, much humour courtesy of 3PO and BB8's little buddy. 8 out of 10 for me. /spoiler]
[spoiler] Palpatine having such a large fleet hidden away didn't really bother me that much. I think in films where people go across the galaxy in a short period of time (is it days or hours? That was never too clear to me) I think it's easy to forget that galaxies are HUGE. Palpatine could have had a thousand times the amount of ships and hid then easily, and they established that access to that region is difficult.
Getting people and resources for the ships is more problematic, but did they need to create them from scratch? From what I remember from RotJ, the emperial ship losses at the battle of Endor were pretty light. The Death Star was destroyed, as was Vader's super star destroyer (Executor?) I think one or two others might have been destroyed but I'm sure that left loads of the standard destroyers, and that just the fleet that was present. How many others were stationed elsewhere?
It's quite likely others were destroyed in later battles. I understand losses at Jakku may have been massive but again, big galaxy. How many destroyers were elsewhere?
So maybe Palpatine or his agents has these ships sent to the Sith planet, bit by bit from different locations so the Republic doesn't notice. (Not too much of a stretch when you consider the galaxy-wide scale. They later augment the ships with First Order technology (or maybe the Sith devotees were the originators of the tech) and maybe build a few others, but the bulk of the fleet could well have been available.
[/spoiler]
For me it just seemed excessive to the point of silliness - similar to the starkiller base from TFA. When you ramp up the scale of things like that you quickly reach a point where suspension of disbelief can't keep up with it.
To my mind, a fleet of say 10-12 super star destroyers would have served the exact same story purpose and still would have been a step up in scale compared to what we've seen previously, but would have been much more plausible. As it is, the scale of the final battle was so vast that it was impossible to track, or really buy into.
I think on the whole the space battles have been a real failing of the newer films. The space battles of the original trilogy always felt tense, claustrophobic and tactile, much more like the WWII dogfights they drew inspiration from. You always felt that the pilots were a second away from a firey death. The sequel trilogy space battles just look like overly flashy videogame cutscenes to me - there's no sense of weight or danger to them, and there's such a pronounced mental disconnect between the exterior and interior shots that I find them really uninvolving. It's probably pie in the sky but I kinda wish they'd used some actual physical miniatures and models to capture the same feel of the originals - I wonder what that old school practical effects technology would look like nowadays if they could augment it with cg, similar to what they did with the Netflix Dark Crystal series.
Quote from: radiator on 03 January, 2020, 05:40:31 PM
For me it just seemed excessive to the point of silliness - similar to the starkiller base from TFA. When you ramp up the scale of things like that you quickly reach a point where suspension of disbelief can't keep up with it.
To my mind, a fleet of say 10-12 super star destroyers would have served the exact same story purpose and still would have been a step up in scale compared to what we've seen previously, but would have been much more plausible. As it is, the scale of the final battle was so vast that it was impossible to track, or really buy into.
Thinking about it, you have a point there, considering each destroyer had a [spoiler]planet destroying superlaser[/spoiler]. Sure they wanted to give a reason for the [spoiler]rest of the galaxy responding to the call to arms[/spoiler] but the size of each of these destroyers is enough to be formidable and 10-12 would be a major threat.
But... I really loved the film just the same.
There is an over-arching question of what the Emperor's motivation is. See, if your plan is to rule the galaxy, then blowing up all of the planets leaves you little to rule over.
When I was a kid there was a bloke on the nearby council estate who always told tall stories like how he was so good at darts that he wasn't allowed to play (he could get a bullseye every time), he beat up ten coppers with a pool cue (in one move) and he taught his pet chicken karate.
He was like a council estate JJ Abrams.
Something I've been thinking about a lot recently is why the universe of the sequels and prequels feel so small compared to the originals.
I was really shocked when I actually thought about how there's really only - if you break it down, around 9 or so distinct planets/locations in the entire OT, and that's if you count Alderaan (which we never actually see) and both Death Stars. It's so economical, and yet it somehow feels like this expansive world that we're only seeing the fringes of.
Is it because I'm watching the newer films without a child's limitless imagination? A relative gulf in the quality of the actual writing and worldbuilding? The differences between how modern films are paced and structured? Or a consequence of the reliance on coincidence, contrivance and fan service in the later films? A bit of all of the above?
Quote from: radiator on 03 January, 2020, 08:41:33 PM
Something I've been thinking about a lot recently is why the universe of the sequels and prequels feel so small compared to the originals.
Is it because I'm watching the newer films without a child's limitless imagination?
Possibly. Or possibly that a whole lot more Sci-Fi reading has taken place in the intervening years? Any one of a number of writers of the last thirty years has spread SF so far beyond the solar system it is unreal. Even taking Baxter as a lone example, for me the galaxy is so much more complex than it was when I first saw Lucas' original offering. Plus Hubble ....
As a child you diffidently see stuff differently. Everything looked bigger and more intimidating. Another factor that contribute to this is since the original trilogy was released we had much more quality sci-fi content on both the big screen and especially TV. Introducing streaming to any device and we add another layer. SW has not suddenly become smaller the rest of the industry did some catch-up and surpass (in some cases) the bigness of the original trilogy. Technology in production values and better use of CGI also made a big difference.
Finally saw it yesterday. And I think my friend Esther described it best. I've never seen a movie quiet so afraid of it's own shadow, and quiet so cowardly.
Everything about this movie screams studio interference and toxic fan appeasement.
That aspect of it is hugely disappointing, but after the unfair box office obliteration of the enjoyable Solo there was only one way it would go. I actually can't hold it agsinst Disney/LFL for reacting this way, but I'm very clear on who I do blame. In the event, the kowtowing wasn't quite as bad as it could have been, and at least Rose got more lines than Jar Jar did in Episode III, which was every bit as heavy in the fan-appeasement department.
And we'll always have TLJ.
Quote from: radiator on 03 January, 2020, 08:41:33 PM
...the reliance on coincidence, contrivance and fan service...
This is the bit that bothers me, because when there's a scene in a movie that's clearly been placed there as a nod to the fans it lifts me out of my willing suspension of disbelief, because it reminds me suddenly that I'm watching a movie, made by people, who are aware of the audience. It takes me from that galaxy far, far away and teleports me jarringly back into my cinema seat.
Breaking the fourth wall is perfectly fine, when it's done in such a way that you feel like the
character is letting you in on a secret, like a confidante (as in Ferris Bueller's Day Off). Having the film-makers do it doesn't have the same panache. C-3PO wasn't a kit built by a young Anakin: that's just fan service. The irony is that it's not actually doing the fans a service: quite the opposite.
And why is the galaxy so small? Solo has an example of this when he just happens to bump into Qi'Ra: in a galaxy with many heavily populated worlds, this stretches credulity as just a happy coincidence. Handy for the plot, bad for the movie's credibility. And Han funds the nascent Rebellion, because ... why? Contrivance. Instead of the Kessel Run (or the Clone Wars) remaining as a fantasy imagined, they each become a CGI festival that can't match our unseen wonder.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 03 January, 2020, 06:12:36 PM
There is an over-arching question of what the Emperor's motivation is. See, if your plan is to rule the galaxy, then blowing up all of the planets leaves you little to rule over.
He doesn't want to blow up all the planets. The idea is that if he has the demonstrable power to blow up planets, he hopes the rest of the galaxy will fall into line through fear. That was always his plan since the first Death Star.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 04 January, 2020, 10:59:17 AM
Finally saw it yesterday. And I think my friend Esther described it best. I've never seen a movie quiet so afraid of it's own shadow, and quiet so cowardly.
Everything about this movie screams studio interference and toxic fan appeasement.
Yep this is exactly right.
It's certainly true that this is a movie lacking in any kind of courage, but can you really blame them? It's been two years of utterly relentless atracks on TLJ, its director, cast and studio, which led directly to a SW movie actually losing money. I would have loved to see a proper follow-up to TLJ, my favourite SW movie since RotJ, but the most vocal wankers of the internet and their amused acolytes made their feelings very clear: so this is what we got instead.
Luckily for me there was enough good stuff jammed into the wildly OTT TROS that I really enjoyed it; but it wasn't the movie I wanted, just the movie we deserved.
I found this interesting: How The Last Jedi Defies Expectations (https://youtu.be/mWqVJZMh6-w)
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Quote from: Mardroid on 04 January, 2020, 07:56:00 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 03 January, 2020, 06:12:36 PM
There is an over-arching question of what the Emperor's motivation is. See, if your plan is to rule the galaxy, then blowing up all of the planets leaves you little to rule over.
He doesn't want to blow up all the planets. The idea is that if he has the demonstrable power to blow up planets, he hopes the rest of the galaxy will fall into line through fear. That was always his plan since the first Death Star.
Right, I agree to an extent: I mean, he certainly had that agenda in the original trilogy. I thought that in this most recent movie the Palp was providing some exposition and (my memory might be off here) but I thought he said something like (paraphrasing heavily): "Fuck it! Let's just blow all the planets up!"
Quote from: Funt Solo on 05 January, 2020, 03:16:47 AM
I found this interesting: How The Last Jedi Defies Expectations (https://youtu.be/mWqVJZMh6-w)
That's fantastic and echos a lot of what I think about the movie, if it does it far more clearly and smartly and gets to the knub of something I'd not thought about.
Excellent - thank you for pointing me there.
So basically The Last Jedi made boring characters to begin with even more boring by trying to alter the SW universe by removing Jedi from the recipe. Mmmmm and I just wanted a Star Wars movie not a Freudian, psychoanalysis, altering my male-echo into pulp, let us get our hankie out and cry us to sleep movie.
That's a lot to decompress.
Here's one: how come "bringing balance to the force" means that the light side wins?
That's actually the one thing the prequels got right. The Jedi had become decadent and corrupt, bloated be beurocrats who dealt in slave exploitation and eugenics. They had to go, the balance required saw them nearly driven to extinction to equal the Sith's law of The Two.
As Luke so elegantly explains, the Light isn't the preserve of the Jedi, and the Force isn't just the Light side, it's life in all its aspects, life and death, light and dark. This was previously teased out a few times in The Clone Wars cartoon.
Where the Force is out of balance is where evil ambition enters the picture, where the passion and violence of the Dark side is used as a quick and easy source of UNLIMITED POW-AH, perverting the natural cycles of the Force with dreams of immortality and complete control. The most charitable reading of this is that the Jedi exist to challenge this distortion, to maintain the balance, rather than pursue any overall triumph of light: to enact the Will of the Force, in all its dimensions.
As Hawkie says, this plan has all gone to shite by the time of Phantom Menace, with an isolated rule-bound Council in a literal ivory tower, giving legitimacy and ultimately muscle to a corrupt centralised government. Qui-Gon stands almost alone in the movies in his rejection of the Jedi 'code', but as a consequence comes across as a rather fey character, seemingly unmoved by injustices around him, while wholly embracing the course the Force places before him. Hermit Luke, both when he despairs and when he reconnects with the Force, seems to be on a similar road. Even Ghost Yoda, finally reconciled with his monumental failures, appears to have embraced this view.
While it does draw on the proposed original ending of Return of the Jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda appear as ghosts and help Luke defeat the Emperor), the climax of Rise of Skywalker does seem to represent a Jedi-centric triumph that is wildly at odds with any notion of balance. But ultimately the sole person that emerges from that clusterfudge appears to have a more balanced viewpoint, and may be forging her own direction.
Forgive me for mentioning something that might have been mentioned before, but it my mini-units pointed out to me over the weekend that Rey healing the Sand snake with a Jedi ability effectively renders Anakin's entire reason for turning to the Dark Side as pointless.
Apparently he could have healed Padme after he choked her...
Don't know if it could have helped Mace Windu with his hands though...
I guess it depends whether he was capable of doing that. Jedi appear to have differing levels of control/abilities.
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 06 January, 2020, 08:38:18 AMApparently he could have healed Padme after he choked her...
It's somewhat implied that the bond (Dyad plot magic) between Rey and Kylo makes them different: ability to make contact with, passing objects/energy to, each other through the force. Might not work anymore now one of them's dead — although the healing ability has also appeared in the EU, the canon Clone Wars cartoons with Darth Maul's 'rehab', and recently demonstrated in The Mandalorian.
Isn't it a simple case of Rey can do this, Anakin couldn't?
I don't get why people are wondering why, if a character can do something in this film, previous ones didnt. Just cos I dye my beard purple doesn't mean my grandad did.
Ah, but Dr Rocka - he 'could' if he'd wanted to.
Much as how at the end of ROTS (Ep03) Yoda tells Obi-Wan of Qui-Gon becoming what appears to be the first known force ghost, was Rey utilising a 'new' Jedi ability to heal the snake as in my memory she plays it off as being something pretty basic (as after all Rey has not had a lot of training from a 'classic' force master)?
Leaving aside the many numerous non-canon precedents, there's a long-standing argument that Obi-Wan heals Luke a bit after he gets whacked by the Tusken Raiders. I don't think you can say one way or the other from what's on the screen, but given their activities in AotC Sandpeople do seem to be more of a threat than they might have appeared initially, so it's possible Luke was more than just napping. Similarly, Palpatine may have had something to do with Anakin surviving his injuries in RotS - he certainly seems to make a similar gesture as Obi-Wan does in ANH.
In the same line, Qui-Gon (accidentally) puts Jar Jar to sleep in TPM by touch, perhaps implying some sort of energy transfer ability.
And I don't see how Ani being potentially able to heal Padme takes away from his story - it's not like his choking injured her particularly badly (the awful Polis Massan medical droids report that there is nothing physically wrong with her), that's just a lie Palpatine tells him.
It's also always worth remembering that according to both Yoda and Mace Windu, the Jedi's ability to "use the Force" has been diminished in Episodes II & III. Once the Force has 'awakened' again in Episode VII, and created q whole new unrecedcented thing in a 'Force dyad', it shouldn't be as surprise when new or more powerful abilities pop up.
Remember we didn't see telekinesis, Force Ghosts, precognition, Force speed/jumping or telepathic contact between living beings until Empire Strikes Back: there is no manual.
The Force is a mystical energy field that can be tapped into - I don't see why this means that everyone can/must use it in the same way.
Just because Rey can heal, why does that mean that Anakin must be able to?
A surgeon took my apendics out - I wouldn't have wanted to do it myself. But we both have hands.
A space wizard did it.
Finally got to see this and was surprised at what a mess it was, and how much cringe was on display. It felt like a Star Wars movie that you would catch glimpses of in a Simpsons episode, especially that first four or so minutes which is just "Emperor's back" that in theory probably seemed like they were just ripping off the band-aid of establishing the big bad guy of the movie/franchise and getting it out of the way immediately because it was either going to be a stumbling block for the audience or it wasn't, buuuuuut... that doesn't mean it was good that they did this, or that the film would ever recover if people had a problem with it, and I did have a problem with it because it was cheap and lazy. I don't care for the excuse that they couldn't do anything else, they are literally paid millions to come up with something we, the audience, would not expect, and they settled for this.
Clearly I was already wavering by the time everyone in the Rebellion starts saying "The Emperor has been pulling the strings all along!" but that was the point the film lost me - though it got me back a couple of times thanks to the same shit-meets-wall strategy that makes it such an absolute slabber of a film, although it also lost me again at several points for the exact same reason.
Starting with Star Trek Into Darkness, I made the observation that JJA's movies were increasingly derivative of the Uncharted video game series, complete with entire scenes and action setpieces taken from those games - JJA is particularly getting his money's worth out of those pirate ship levels in Uncharted 3 - so when the bandits guarding the Atlantis Of The Sands showed up I thought it was pushing things, but then like three minutes later, Ray is doing the third-person platforming thing inside the Death Star wreckage, complete with bright yellow pipes for her to shimmy along, then she finds the secret room containing the hidden relic, and then the villain shows up out of nowhere to nick the relic so they have to do a boss fight setpiece and I was like "fucking hell". The bandits even show up on horseback later in the film for the action finale, just like in Uncharted 3 - someone needs to tell JJA there are other videogames.
I liked how the Emperor drains life like a space Dracula, so Ray kills him by using the space swords to make a space crucifix that drives him back before he gets killed by reflected sunlight - just like in a Castlevania videogame, so it's not just Uncharted JJA is playing these days, though I understand why he may not be versed in anything more recent as he's a very busy man.
I found the stuff with Leia crass. I was just about okay with using stock footage of Carrie Fisher, but this felt like graverobbing.
Well anyway for all its noise and fury, this is probably the most forgettable Star Wars movie I've seen but I was happy without qualification to see Wicket's cameo at the end. Now make me an Ewoks movie, you fucking cowards.
By the mid-point, I was surprised to find I was loving it, but it went a bit off the rails after Rey and Kylo's encounter near the Death Star wreckage. Their connection and how it played cinematically was the film's highlight. More than that, I can't be arsed, which says a lot. After TFA and Rogue One I felt like the Star Wars universe was firing on all cylinders, then TLJ left me cold, Solo felt paint-by-numbers, and ROS, while a perfectly enjoyable slice of meh, was nonetheless meh.
Launching into a new Skywalker trilogy without a planned three-film arc was nuts. Giving the middle-chapter director carte-blanche with the story was bordering on insane. I guess we'll have to hope that the franchise finds its next lease of life on TV.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 06 January, 2020, 02:50:17 PM
I found the stuff with Leia crass. I was just about okay with using stock footage of Carrie Fisher, but this felt like graverobbing.
I thought the Carrie scenes were a good tribute to her (without using CGI to resurrect her) - I especially like how some of Leia's scenes were shared with actual Carrie Fisher's daughter (specifically - there's one bit where they use the footage they had of Carrie and the very next person on screen is Billie).
I didn't mind the healing stuff - that all makes perfect sense to me (apologies if this comes across as a bit reductive, but I took it to be a more maternal, nurturing aspect of the Force, what with the focus on Leia and all). However, I really didn't like the notion that the Force can literally resurrect the dead. What is it with JJ Abrams and undoing the death of his characters? He pulled this shit in Star Trek too. I find it such a story-breaking, world-breaking thing to do that just cheapens everything. Not a fan.
If electric paddles can restart a heart in films, why can't the Force?
Maybe the little midichlorians themselves are being prompted into action, healing wounds like nanobots.
I didn't mind any of the new force powers and Jedi abilities, but it does beg the question why have they not been used before (and regularly, considering how useful they are) in most cases. Similar to the Holdo manoeuvre I suppose.
[spoiler]Like if the force ghosts can still wield the force in the real world as we see with Luke at one point, why don't they float onto the bridges of star destroyers and force slam all the crew for us, or get all the ghosts together and pile on Palpatine[/spoiler]
I think its the inherent limitations of the Star Wars franchise in general. It works as a broad space fantasy in a single film, or even a trilogy. But as soon as you start expanding it beyond that, it raises all sorts of weird questions about how it all works as a universe, the tech, how the Force works etc, and the answers to those questions can never be satisfying.
Like, a good example of this is in Attack of the Clones, when the characters go into a space bar, where there are TV screens showing a game of space football, and a shady character offers them space cigarettes. It just seems really lame that everything in the real word has to have a sci fi equivalent in the Star Wars universe. It makes the world seem really flimsy and unimaginative. The more it gets fleshed out, the more boring and humdrum it all seems.
Quote from: GrudgeJohnDeed on 07 January, 2020, 11:59:58 PM
[spoiler]Like if the force ghosts can still wield the force in the real world as we see with Luke at one point, why don't they float onto the bridges of star destroyers and force slam all the crew for us, or get all the ghosts together and pile on Palpatine[/spoiler]
Luke did all that [spoiler]before he died, and it killed him. I.E. he wasn't a force ghost when he pulled that stunt[/spoiler].
Quote from: radiator on 08 January, 2020, 03:58:05 AM
Like, a good example of this is in Attack of the Clones, when the characters go into a space bar, where there are TV screens showing a game of space football, and a shady character offers them space cigarettes. It just seems really lame that everything in the real word has to have a sci fi equivalent in the Star Wars universe. It makes the world seem really flimsy and unimaginative. The more it gets fleshed out, the more boring and humdrum it all seems.
I'd agree totally with what you'd said if you hadn't used anti-disability language to say it (https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/lets-stop-using-the-word-lame).
Quote from: sheridan on 08 January, 2020, 09:37:02 AM
Luke did all that [spoiler]before he died, and it killed him. I.E. he wasn't a force ghost when he pulled that stunt[/spoiler].
Uh-uh, in TRoS Luke [spoiler]catches a lightsabre and (finally) levitates an X-Wing when he's a ghost[/spoiler]. In TLJ Yoda calls down lightning and whacks Luke with his stick.
It used to be argued that Obi-Wan physically helped Luke with the proton torpedo shot in ANH, rather than just 'advising' him, and the proposed original ending of RotJ had Obi-Wan (and Yoda) physically intervene in the final fight with Palpatine. This was (luckily) nerfed, and the ould lad tells Luke he can't get involved for unspecified reasons (of... balance)?
Nowadays we tend to view Obi-Wan's 'Strike me down and I'll become more powerful than ....' line as more metaphorical, an inspiration for Luke and a way of ensuring enmity for his father, but it may well originally have been intended to be an actual threat - and one that finds expression in JJ's raiding of Lucas' notes for TRoS, in the very McQuarrie throne room that it was supposed to have played out in.
Quote from: TordelBack on 08 January, 2020, 09:51:32 AM
Nowadays we tend to view Obi-Wan's 'Strike me down and I'll become more powerful than ....' line as more metaphorical, an inspiration for Luke and a way of ensuring enmity for his father, but it may well originally have been intended to be an actual threat - and one that finds expression in JJ's raiding of Lucas' notes for TRoS, in the very McQuarrie throne room that it was supposed to have played out in.
Interesting. I think I always thought of it being like 'I'll be an immortal omnipresent space ghost' when I was young (not in those exact words :D ), but as an adult I definitely pick up on the sense of martyrdom in the line a lot more than I did then. And I guess he's robbing Darth Vader of the satisfaction of breaking him whilst simultaneously doing the most Jedi thing he can, sacrificing himself for others. That must really have got up Vader's nose. Not that that last thought relates to the line itself.
Quote from: radiator on 08 January, 2020, 12:14:27 AM
I think its the inherent limitations of the Star Wars franchise in general. It works as a broad space fantasy in a single film, or even a trilogy. But as soon as you start expanding it beyond that, it raises all sorts of weird questions about how it all works as a universe, the tech, how the Force works etc, and the answers to those questions can never be satisfying.
I don't think Star Wars was necessarily destined to falter as the world was explored, the force powers for example already had enough definition for me as needed really by the end of the original trilogy, it didn't have to go too much further in that respect. But that's not to say you couldn't expand the force and explore it more, it just needed to be a bit more careful I think to avoid too many plot inconsistencies, and a situation where the writers have carte blanche to pull force powers out of their bottom as and when they think it'd be cool.
The prequels dealt with expansion of the force in a better way I think in places (It's been a while). Like supposed mountain monks that can slow their heart to 3 beats a minute, perhaps such an incredible power like resurrecting the dead should be restricted to people who have strived their entire life to be able to do it like one Señor Plagueis
I guess you're always going to have space bars with space beer and a space band and space chess and all that kind of thing. It can be done well, perhaps it's more the execution?
And in that scene having the Jedi act as space cops ("Nothing to see here. Jedi business") didn't help.
To me the Force doesn't work in Star Wars movies in exactly the way the magic in LOTR movies did. If Gandalf had stood on ramparts blasting lightning and throwing fireballs, we'd all be going "Well, why doesn't he just do that all the time?". But the vagueness of his powers...( is it just leadership, charisma, persuasion, some healing herbs and a really bright light on the end of his staff) makes it work.
Similarly the monsters in LOTR work pretty well but when you get to THE HOBBIT movies and the same writers suddenly think that Stone Giants and War Wyrms are a good idea, the audience is thinking "Well if I was Sauron, I'd just get me a couple of them". And the balance is gone.
I mean, power leveling Middle Earth beings is pretty much pointless because Tolkien just put in anything fun without any knowledge nearly 90 years later, nerds on the internet and a huge cinematic conglomerate would rigidly try to tier stuff like it's Dragon Ball Z.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 09 January, 2020, 08:05:04 AM
And in that scene having the Jedi act as space cops ("Nothing to see here. Jedi business") didn't help.
Awful though that line/scene is (Obi-Wan multilates and then Ani mind-rapes a patsy), it does sell the wrongness of the Jedi role as the Republic crumbles quite well. We came into the Prequels thinking the Jedi were the mystic dogs' bollocks, but we forgot that Yoda and Obi-Wan were *always* lying bastards, and wartime generals, and very poor teachers. It's a painfull 3-movie disillusionment, but we can't say we weren't warned.
QuoteBut the vagueness of his powers...( is it just leadership, charisma, persuasion, some healing herbs and a really bright light on the end of his staff) makes it work.
His main powers are lighting and chucking pine-cones, and talking to moths. He does a lot with a little.
Gandalf skill sheet:
- Flashlight
- Moth-parseltongue
- Handy with a sword
- Summon Shadowfax
- Friend to Eagles
- Magic Smoke Rings
- Fancy Fantasy Fireworks
- Explosive Pine Cones
- Mimic-a-Troll
- Forest Fire
- Anti-Balrog Shell
- Charm Werebear
- Resurrect Self
---
Oh yeah, and (on topic), the Force blah blah.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 09 January, 2020, 03:25:19 PM
Gandalf skill sheet:
- Flashlight
- Moth-parseltongue
- Handy with a sword
- Summon Shadowfax
- Friend to Eagles
- Magic Smoke Rings
- Fancy Fantasy Fireworks
- Explosive Pine Cones
- Mimic-a-Troll
- Forest Fire
- Anti-Balrog Shell
- Charm Werebear
- Resurrect Self
---
Oh yeah, and (on topic), the Force blah blah.
Maybe it reflects badly on me, but I misread the first entry on that Gandalf Skill Sheet! Then was frantically trying to remember the book and films to piece together how I'd missed that!
Lucky I wasn't drinking tea when I read it.
:lol:
He spends a lot of time alone in hedges - he probably he has one.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 09 January, 2020, 08:05:04 AM
And in that scene having the Jedi act as space cops ("Nothing to see here. Jedi business") didn't help.
To me the Force doesn't work in Star Wars movies in exactly the way the magic in LOTR movies did. If Gandalf had stood on ramparts blasting lightning and throwing fireballs, we'd all be going "Well, why doesn't he just do that all the time?". But the vagueness of his powers...( is it just leadership, charisma, persuasion, some healing herbs and a really bright light on the end of his staff) makes it work.
Similarly the monsters in LOTR work pretty well but when you get to THE HOBBIT movies and the same writers suddenly think that Stone Giants and War Wyrms are a good idea, the audience is thinking "Well if I was Sauron, I'd just get me a couple of them". And the balance is gone.
A point that was made in the RLM reviews that really hit the nail on the head for me was how I always got the impression that the things we see Jedis do in the original trilogy - the mind trick, shooting lightning, telekinesis etc etc - are just suggestions of the kinds of things the jedi are capable of. Then you get to the prequels, and its like 'yeah, all that stuff the jedi do in the original movies is literally the extent of what they can do'. It's so boring and unimaginative.
On a related note, I think A Song of Ice and Fire has probably the best portrayal of magical powers I've seen in a work of fiction, specifically regarding the character of Melisandre. The Game of Thrones TV show didn't really have the time to go into it much, but in the books you get the sense that while Melisandre does have legit magical powers, it's supplemented by a lot of bullshitting and misdirection to make out she's more powerful than she is, and the use of magic in the series generally comes with a cost to the user, often in blood. There's a lot of talk about magic being 'a blade with no hilt - there's no way to wield it safely'. Because of this the magic users never seem overpowered and it avoids the pitfalls you mention of wondering 'why character x didn't just do y?'.
Quote from: TordelBack on 08 January, 2020, 09:51:32 AM... the proposed original ending of RotJ had Obi-Wan (and Yoda) physically intervene in the final fight with Palpatine. This was (luckily) nerfed, and the ould lad tells Luke he can't get involved for unspecified reasons (of... balance)?
Nowadays we tend to view Obi-Wan's 'Strike me down and I'll become more powerful than ....' line as more metaphorical, an inspiration for Luke and a way of ensuring enmity for his father, but it may well originally have been intended to be an actual threat - and one that finds expression in JJ's raiding of Lucas' notes for TRoS, in the very McQuarrie throne room that it was supposed to have played out in.
Thankfully the idea of an intervention by resurrected force-ghosts against the Emperor was ditched in favor of keeping the conflict Luke-centric because it's in the realisation of the metaphorical in Kenobi's
surrender to the force that Star Wars becomes truly lyrical (not the
karaoke of later efforts) and pays-off several times for the throughline of the story:
In A New Hope it's Luke turning off the machinery of the X-Wing's guidance-system and 'letting go' of his feelings that lands the shot. In Empire, doing the opposite and impulsively going on the offensive against Vader results in Luke losing his hand and gaining a permanent prosthetic warning; and in Jedi, withdrawing his lightsaber —circling back to Kenobi in the docking bay— leads to Luke winning over his father.
Quote from: radiator on 10 January, 2020, 04:03:42 AM
A point that was made in the RLM reviews that really hit the nail on the head for me was how I always got the impression that the things we see Jedis do in the original trilogy - the mind trick, shooting lightning, telekinesis etc etc - are just suggestions of the kinds of things the jedi are capable of. Then you get to the prequels, and its like 'yeah, all that stuff the jedi do in the original movies is literally the extent of what they can do'. It's so boring and unimaginative.
As much as I like the holy trinity, the forgetfulness of the film makers started right with the second film. Obiwan was in disguise as a hermit, which is why he was wearing those brown robes. So why did Yoda wear the same clothes in Empire? And the force-ghost-Anakin in Jedi? Though hiding Luke Skywalker in a home that Anakin Skywalker had been to before the fall to the darkside is also pretty stupid (though has been pointed out many, many times).
Quote from: sheridan on 10 January, 2020, 09:37:56 AM
Though hiding Luke Skywalker in a home that Anakin Skywalker had been to before the fall to the darkside is also pretty stupid (though has been pointed out many, many times).
Using the name 'Skywalker' rather than that of his adoptive parents probably wasn't the cleverest thing to do when you're hiding a child from its now-evil father...
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 10 January, 2020, 09:42:50 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 10 January, 2020, 09:37:56 AM
Though hiding Luke Skywalker in a home that Anakin Skywalker had been to before the fall to the darkside is also pretty stupid (though has been pointed out many, many times).
Using the name 'Skywalker' rather than that of his adoptive parents probably wasn't the cleverest thing to do when you're hiding a child from its now-evil father...
While the default argument is due to issues with sand (and other painful memories) Vader* is unlikely to ever return to Tatooine, and vocally so (note that he doesn't even personally land there when pursuing the Death Star plans), it always raises lots of interesting questions about how much all the other players knew (in-universe at least - obviously in terms of the production no-one was any the wiser).
For example, Watto knows that L'il Ani, the only human champion of the Boonta Eve Classic and thus a minor local celebrity, went on to become the Jedi hero of the Republic, and he knows that Shmi married Cliegg Lars and lived on a farm out near Anchorhead. Given the potential value of that info, it's not likely to be a secret that any Skywalkers out there at the edge of the Dune Sea are relatives of the man who personally ended the Clone Wars.
Meanwhile, Palpatine outright lies about Padme's death to Vader, so does he know she lived to give birth? If he does, he must conclude the offspring is (are) with Obi-Wan, since he was the only one on Mustafar. The coincidence of a crazy old wizard called Kenobi and a hotshot pilot called Skywalker living around where he knows Anakin buried his mother would seem to be something irresistable.
Ultimately, I think the whole thing rests on the original idea that Tatooine is the planet that's farthest from the bright centre of the universe. Just because we the viewers see it over and over again, and know it to be the cradle of many destinies, doesn't mean anyone plotting (say) complete galactic domination ever gives it a second thought.
*Although he did build a castle at the spot where he killed his wife, and had his limbs chopped off and marinated in a lava field, so who knows how far his masochism extends.
Quote from: JOE SOAPIn A New Hope it's Luke turning off the machinery of the X-Wing's guidance-system and 'letting go' of his feelings that lands the shot. In Empire, doing the opposite and impulsively going on the offensive against Vader results in Luke losing his hand and gaining a permanent prosthetic warning; and in Jedi, withdrawing his lightsaber —circling back to Kenobi in the docking bay— leads to Luke winning over his father.
And absolutely all this. You can extend this leitmotif into
Last Jedi if you like, but alas no further.
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2020, 10:09:39 AM
*Although he did build a castle at the spot where he killed his wife, and had his limbs chopped off and marinated in a lava field, so who knows how far his masochism extends.
I reckon he just had an eye for real estate opportunities. He must have picked that lava field up for a song! Think of the free energy too - central heating sorted, all the power a water turbine can generate etc. And I doubt there's much in the way of building regs on that planet either. Combined with his wage for being one of the Empire's top dogs, who wouldn't want to build a cool giant fortress over a rad lava flow?!
Given the amount of walkways over gigantically deep voids with never a railing in sight, or fellas standing in the muzzle of planet killing weapons, I don't think there are any building regs in Star Wars.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 10 January, 2020, 10:47:33 AM
Given the amount of walkways over gigantically deep voids with never a railing in sight, or fellas standing in the muzzle of planet killing weapons, I don't think there are any building regs in Star Wars.
Judging by
Rogue One all the galaxy's top engineers are middle-aged white blokes, so for them replacing the bureaucratic Republic with the First Galactic Empire probably seemed like a good opportunity to get rid of all that HS&W legislation that was strangling business/despotic schemes. Planetary annihilaton: let's get it done.
You know, I think that scene was in the out-takes for ROTJ. You know, just after Vader pitches up to get things back on track and the officer promises to redouble their efforts?
The guy from HSE stepped out with his clipboard and his list of infractions:
- open walkways
- easy access to power cores
- poorly regulated power systems
- deep pits that anyone could get thrown into
"Oh, and those pikes? You'll have someone's eye out with those! Tsk, have to mark you down for tha ... <gasp, choke>"
"I find your paperwork disturbing ...."
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 10 January, 2020, 09:42:50 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 10 January, 2020, 09:37:56 AM
Though hiding Luke Skywalker in a home that Anakin Skywalker had been to before the fall to the darkside is also pretty stupid (though has been pointed out many, many times).
Using the name 'Skywalker' rather than that of his adoptive parents probably wasn't the cleverest thing to do when you're hiding a child from its now-evil father...
This wasn't always so much of a howler. Up until the late 1990s when The Phantom Menace was being prepped it was still the accepted 'canon' in published Lucasfilm material that Uncle Owen and Kenobi were
brothers and the farm was their family homestead, which makes more sense and implies Anakin was not from Tatooine at all. This lengthy exposition was still included in scripts for Return of the Jedi less than a month before shooting began:
(http://i.imgur.com/LrUjMW8.jpg) (https://imgur.com/LrUjMW8)
(http://i.imgur.com/0wecL6m.jpg) (https://imgur.com/0wecL6m)
The Kenobi/Owen/Tatooine backstory was apparently something that came out of conversations between George Lucas and Return of the Kedi novelist James Kahn – as he later related to Star Wars Insider:
The novel mentions that Obi-Wan and Uncle Owen were brothers. Where did that come from?
It came out of a conversation I had with George early in the process. I asked him how Luke came to be living with Owen and Beru, with Obi-Wan just coincidentally living in the nearby desert. George shrugged and said it related to the backstory, but did I have something in mind? I said I thought the interaction at the kitchen table in Episode IV, when Uncle Owen snaps at Luke about staying away from that crazy old hermit, sounded to me like an old family fight – like old brothers refer to each other in those decades-long sibling rivalries. I thought there was a big blow-up when they were kids, and Obi-Wan ran off to be a Jedi, and Owen never forgave him for not staying on the farm, and thereby breaking their father's heart. Then, years later, Obi-Wan came back with baby Luke in tow, and prevailed on Owen out of old loyalties to adopt the boy, and Owen was reluctant, but probably Aunt Beau said they should do it, and then Obi-Wan settled down nearby to kind of keep an eye on Luke from afar. And George said that sounded about right.
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2020, 10:09:39 AM
Quote from: JOE SOAPIn A New Hope it's Luke turning off the machinery of the X-Wing's guidance-system and 'letting go' of his feelings that lands the shot. In Empire, doing the opposite and impulsively going on the offensive against Vader results in Luke losing his hand and gaining a permanent prosthetic warning; and in Jedi, withdrawing his lightsaber —circling back to Kenobi in the docking bay— leads to Luke winning over his father.
And absolutely all this. You can extend this leitmotif into Last Jedi if you like, but alas no further.
Indeed.
The Force is a jerk.
The excision of the Ben/Owen sibling relationship doesn't bother me too much, as it really only appears in Kahn's so-so novelisation, but as I've said many, many times before, the single worst ret-con in the extensive catalogue of Star Wars ret-cons is Padme's death. That it directly contradicts one of the most powerful scenes in Return of the Jedi is just a railing-less bridge too far: and all for the most laughable, illogical scene in a movie replete with them. As they say on Twitter, don't @CertainPointOfView me, that's too much head-canon gymnastics even for me.
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2020, 02:54:17 PM
The excision of the Ben/Owen sibling relationship doesn't bother me too much, as it really only appears in Kahn's so-so novelisation, but as I've said many, many times before, the single worst ret-con in the extensive catalogue of Star Wars ret-cons is Padme's death. That it directly contradicts one of the most powerful scenes in Return of the Jedi is just a railing-less bridge too far: and all for the most laughable, illogical scene in a movie replete with them. As they say on Twitter, don't @CertainPointOfView me, that's too much head-canon gymnastics even for me.
It also killed the potential for more stories, even the possibility of stretching to Sequel era potential, but George wanted his tragedy and for the mother's death to 'rhyme' with Anakin's in ROTJ.
The game of twister I usually see is that Leia remembers her mother she never met through the force, but somehow Luke can't.
I do prefer the idea of Vader's origins offering different possibilities to Luke's and Tatooine not being part of the story until Episode IV.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 10 January, 2020, 03:24:00 PM
I do prefer the idea of Vader's origins offering different possibilities to Luke's and Tatooine not being part of the story until Episode IV.
When the rough shape of Episode I first became apparent I just could not get my head around the idea of Anakin being from Tatooine*: it made no sense whatsoever. Terry Brooks had a decent stab at selling it in the novelisation, describing how the currents of the Force were drawn to and flowed around he twin suns of this unusual inhabited binary system (something that
The Last Jedi would sort-of allude to by setting the first Jedi Temple in the same stellar niche as the birthplace of the Chosen One), but still, nah.
And then when I finally copped (during my second viewing!) that this Padme character was somehow to become the twins' mother...
e chu ta. I mean, I had some pretty babysitters too, but I never got round to knocking any of them up.
*Although note that the film itself makes no reference to where Anakin was born (or conceived) - Shmi merely reports that Gardulla the Hutt lost the two of them to Watto, and it seems unlikely that two Hutts call Tatooine home. Nor was Luke born there.
If you could go back in time and convince Lucas to be a bit more hands-off and delegate scriptwriting and direction of the prequels to contemporary filmmakers as he did on the originals, who would you choose?
I remember that there was a possibility that Spielberg and Ron Howard might have directed episodes 2 and 3(?). A Spielberg directed Episode 1 would have been amazing.
David Fincher would have been a good shout - didn't he get his start on Jedi?
Quote from: radiator on 10 January, 2020, 07:09:48 PM
David Fincher would have been a good shout - didn't he get his start on Jedi?
https://youtu.be/HQRcnQD-tHM?t=404
Shane Meadows writing and directing a young working class Anakin.
Frank Darabont circa 1997/8 could have been fun. Makes a nice streamlined film with a good line in iconic scenes.
Although if I'm honest, George would still have to be cracking the whip in terms of design and imagery, just with someone else holding the script and pacing together. I'd also love to have seen Episodes II and especially III from a George that wasn't already bowed and broken by whiny fans.
Zemeckis, Spielberg and Howard were all approached but declined. At the time other possibles I suppose were Peter Jackson, Kenneth Branagh, Joe Johnston – probably the only one who'd realistically do it.
Darabont was of course asked would he be interested in writing The Phantom Menace: his answer gives another reason why others may not have been so keen on collaboration:
George Lucas approached me with the idea of my performing writing services on 'Phantom Menace.' (Please note that I'm being very specific and accurate when I say 'writing' services. At no time was there any discussion of my directing, because George was 'always' going to be the director of the film.) My agent, Robert Stein, contacted a British attorney representing George to see if a deal for my writing services could be negotiated. It was during this round of phone conversations that George's attorney made us aware that Lucasfilm did not intend to become a WGA signatory on the project. In other words, it was a non-guild job.
After realizing that George was not going to budge on this issue, my agent and I regretfully broke off further negotiations. I called George personally to explain my reasons. He, in turn, explained his. It is no secret that George has a long-standing enmity with both the WGA and DGA, which is why he renounced his membership in those guilds years ago, and why he now doesn't wish to become a signatory. I told him I understood that his feelings were deeply rooted, but that he couldn't expect me to take sides against my own guild for the sake of a writing assignment. He understood my position, we agreed my involvment on 'Phantom Menace' was not meant to be, and we parted friends. It's that simple.
http://www.theforce.net/episode1/story/Frank_Darabont_Refutes_TPM_Rumors_75332.asp
Quote from: JamesC on 10 January, 2020, 11:05:34 PM
Shane Meadows writing and directing a young working class Anakin.
This would have been 'fun' but why not go the whole hog the obvious social inequalities of Tatooine is perfect fodder for Ken Loach. Now that would have been a movie!
Shane Meadows writing and directing a young working class Anakin.
Thomas Turgoose as Anakin (he even looks a bit like Vader sans helmet in ROTJ).
Paddy Considine as Qui Gon.
Vicky McClure as Padme.
Joe Gilgun as Kenobi.
Stephen Graham as Darth Maul.
I'm only half joking.
i, thankfully, have no idea what all this is about :lol:
Quote from: Proudhuff on 11 January, 2020, 11:45:56 AM
i, thankfully, have no idea what all this is about :lol:
Fear attracts the fearful, the strong, the weak, the innocent, the corrupt. Fear. Fear is my ally.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTY2ODY0OTkwNF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwMTgyODcxNjM@._V1_.jpg)
nope, still nothing ;)
Yo.. Drokkbots,,Is moffat blacked up in that screenshot, or is it just poor lighting?.. Either way if he had less hair he kinda looks like me in the face, at least from that angle,. Only I'm not as chubby.
Offensive comment removed, and the photo is of Stephen Graham
Robert Meyer Burnett gives a detailed summary of the alleged Colin Trevorrow & Derek Connolly Episode IX script, featuring old Lucas-lore like Chewie in an X-Wing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ShS32kJclU).
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 14 January, 2020, 04:59:24 AM
Robert Meyer Burnett gives a detailed summary of the alleged Colin Trevorrow & Derek Connolly Episode IX script, featuring old Lucas-lore like Chewie in an X-Wing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ShS32kJclU).
This script sounds as bad as what we ended up with.
Quote from: blackmocco on 14 January, 2020, 03:45:52 PM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 14 January, 2020, 04:59:24 AM
Robert Meyer Burnett gives a detailed summary of the alleged Colin Trevorrow & Derek Connolly Episode IX script, featuring old Lucas-lore like Chewie in an X-Wing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ShS32kJclU).
This script sounds as bad as what we ended up with.
Agree. From the outline, it sounds pretty dreadful.
Blimey. I was wanting to go to a late show tonight for a second viewing but it's barely on any screens in our area.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 17 January, 2020, 08:33:18 PM
Blimey. I was wanting to go to a late show tonight for a second viewing but it's barely on any screens in our area.
Similar realisation here. But there were still loads of showings last week and it has been out a full month now so I don't know what I was expecting...
really? I assumed it'd be on for ages. Best get down the cinema then (not the most ringing endorsement for a film ever)
The studios don't care if the fan-wankdom hate it, they know that the disgruntled fanbase will ALWAYS buy a ticket, just so they can be first with their snarky put-downs, so job done.
We have three big multiscreen Vues within spitting distance. Three showings at one; two at another; none at all at the place where we saw it (which is still showing Joker). I guess every blockbuster now is basically on a two-to-three-week schedule, for the most part.
So I enjoyed that MUCH more on a second viewing. Still breathlessly paced with too much movie crammed in but I think the 3D on first viewing was dark (and being front row of IMAX didn't help) but whole thing much clearer this time. Plus I didn't have a stinking cold which also helped. Plus I was prepared for all of the disappointment of them throwing away all the good Last Jedi stuff.
But really enjoyed it despite it being full of wrong.
Finally got around to this at the weekend. Yeah, it was pretty good, didn't see anything that made me angry, but it just went on a bit long - by the time they got to the watery sabre-fight, I was kinda ready for it to be over, but we had a whole extra heap of ghost-whispering and space battles to come.
This leaked footage from the abandoned Star Wars: Underworld (which sounded like a terrible idea) looks totally fake and fan made to me.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 02 February, 2020, 09:33:08 AM
This leaked footage from the abandoned Star Wars: Underworld (which sounded like a terrible idea) looks totally fake and fan made to me.
It's
test footage that first appeared around 6 years ago in a showreel for Stargate Studios. I've seen worse.
Some of the ideas that were considered as episodes for the series ended up as Rogue One and Solo.
Yeah, they re-purposed it for a Blade Runner 'inspired' short called XXIT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOi3u4tNqTY&feature=emb_logo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOi3u4tNqTY&feature=emb_logo)
Depends what your definition of 'fan-made' is, I imagine a pitch to Lucasfilm to test the tech rather than anything else.
The footage was on the vimeo page in full 9 years ago and was still there a couple of days ago, but it's now a private video. I guess they just forgot about it.
Commissioned by Rick McCallum as proof of concept apparently.
https://io9.gizmodo.com/heres-the-real-deal-with-that-leaked-star-wars-footage-1841389155 (https://io9.gizmodo.com/heres-the-real-deal-with-that-leaked-star-wars-footage-1841389155)
And an in-depth article about the Mandalorian tech.
http://www.icgmagazine.com/web/a-new-hope/ (http://www.icgmagazine.com/web/a-new-hope/)
Got this on blu-ray and still enjoyed it despite a thousand flaws.
The extras are very interesting. Best of the lot is some utterly heart warming stuff with Warwick Davis and his son (including stuff from Return Of The Jedi).
Second best thing is noticing that JJ Abrams has a penis nose from some angles.
But The RISE OF SKYWALKER making of is utterly breathtaking in the level of commitment to a verisimilitude throughout the production. I can't help but thinking that another month on the story would have helped it more than building roads and a village in a desert and training 500 Jordanians how to dance while dressed as aliens.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 09 May, 2020, 01:45:47 PM
Second best thing is noticing that JJ Abrams has a penis nose from some angles.
I've never seen a picture of him before, but a quick image search reveals that the internet is mainly of the opinion that it's a butt nose.
Rewatched ep 7-9 yesterday. I was never a fan of 7, and even less so this time around. First time I "really" watched 9 as well, but it's simply not made for me in mind. Too much of characters interupting eachother, screaming exposition.
But I must confess I liked ep 8 much better than the last time I saw it (saw it once in a cinema). Some things are still not working for me (for example Rose saving Finn --which most likely never will), but I discovered alot of things to like. Especially Rian's direction. He's good at visuals. For me the sunken x wing told me more of a story than everything in ep 7, as did the ending's kid with the broom when compared to ep. 9's.
I'll probably never watch 7 and 9 again, but I could see myself watching 8 if someone would insist on doing so :)
I've watched all six of them again (I just can't bring myself to watch the prequels) to stop me being bored out of my nut working from home.
7 - pure spectacle with stuff for the fans, and too much of a remake of Star Wars, but seemingly with less menace than the original. Vacuous, but enjoyable. Musically, Ray's theme is lovely, and the March of the Resistance is a cracking piece of unexpectedly structured pomp, and hugely enjoyable for it.
8 - some classic cinema in here, mixed in with utter gash. The Luke story arc I find immensely satisfying, including the 'Rashomon' retelling of the Luke/Kylo dynamic. The Camino scenes incredibly jarring. And will someone shoot Poe Dameron right at the start please? He caused so much death and destruction, but the worst he got for all his mutiny and suchlike was "he's a very naught boy, and that's why we like him." No. If that was a military operation, he'd be court-martialled. Shoot him.
9 - Pfft. What's there to say? Things happen. Narrative and storytelling are confused with set-pieces and special effects. It's a wonderful looking movie, there's no doubt about that. It's just too ridiculous for words. Events strung together with little or no reason. Unbelievable maps of death star wreckaqe on knives. Popular characters being almost entirely sidelined. Secrets hinted at for dramatic purpose that never go anywhere. A narrative shambles. The dead speak! Do they? When? Oh, in some game I'm never going to play. Look out, tie fighters! Run away. Look out, more tie fighters! Run away. Oh, Rey's dead. Oh, no she's not, Kylo saved her. Oh, Kylo's dead. Rey will save him. No she won't - what? Creepy Lando - does he want to adopt her or screw her? What? Why? Where? Who?
No, 9 definitely does not do it for me.
4 - Epic.
5 - breathtaking cinema even after 35 years, even on a small iPad screen.
6 - simple joyous fun, with a perfectly choreographed last third.
I did also rewatch Rogue One. The last 35 minutes is some of the best Star Wars to ever grace our cinema screens - land, sea, air, space battle. the stakes are high. Glorious, thrilling, and then the last few minutes made me want to SCREAM in the cinema, and still do now.
I'll leave you with this reaction video, which is the best reaction to anything I have ever seen ever, and I am totally with her all of the way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIe2TLPryJw
My problem still with ep 7 -9 is that it felt like a remake of New Hope. The obsession of bringing back the classic SW characters were more important than actually bringing us a coherent story. The special effects and visuals where stunning but visuals is not the only thing a movie requires.
QuoteAnd will someone shoot Poe Dameron right at the start
My favourite thing about 8 is that it shows the machismo heroism for what it is - getting people killed for personal glory - and replaces it with a gentler heroism, where people fight for love rather than hate, and waiting for an opportunity is a better idea than flying directly at a Stardestroyer . All the bombast of the Camino scenes is pointless...except that they allow the weird animal things to run free, which in this kinder philosophy is valuable in itself. The tropes of old are cast aside as swaggering rogues are shown not as romantic heroes but just as self interested bastards, easily forgotten. The force isn't about a bunch of elitist monks passing judgement from atop a tower, it's a connection anyone can feel, that brings everyone together.
Then 9 happened. A film that required a prologue in Fortnite.
Mm. That's still kind of my feeling about it. 8 dared to do and be something different, and it had a great message for kids: anyone can be special, and, hey, all be a bid kinder. Them JJA stomped back in yelling NO NO NO in response to fanboys getting terribly angry about nothing much, and went about his usual approach of creating facsimiles of old properties to warm people's nostalgia glands.
FWIW, I didn't dislike 9. I in fact quite enjoyed it. But a recent Twitter thread I read (but can't find, because Twitter) did an excellent comparison of the two Luke lifting the X-wing scenes. The first, it noted, was about a character's hero journey — about self belief. It had meaning. The second was nothing more than fan service, because it had no reason to exist.
I have many opinions to share on he subject of TROS, (now I've watched it loads of times) but I'm busy today and not overly cheery, so I'll limit myself to the X-Wing bit.
I'll preface my remarks by saying that I think the costuming, set and lighting on Ahch-To are awful - after the really remarkable work put into integrating Carrie Fisher into the movie, they slapped a jokeshop wig on Mark Hamill and apparently shot the whole thing in the studio foyer against some paper maché rocks, and then to add insult to injury threw in two (count 'em) animatronic porgs.
I appreciate that more filming on Skellig Michael was completely out, but a lot of TLJ was shot on the mainland coast of both Kerry and Donegal (and on a brilliant exterior set at Longcross Studios for the bits around the tree), and something that looked vaguely like the established locations might have been nice. I think a few more days for the second unit would have been worth it, especially as they went to the bother of shooting the Passana speeder chase on gimballed rigs against greenscreen, but did it on location in Jordan just to get the light right.
And breath.
Obviously it's nothing on the Yoda lifting the X-Wing scene, which is the pure heart of the whole franchise, but the sequence does serve several purposes.
First, most prosaically, it shows that Luke wasn't trapped on Ahch-To in TLJ, he could have left to confront Ren (and Snoke) any time. Instead he chose a uniquely Luke solution in keeping with that film's themes. Most of us may not have needed that made explicit, but much of this whole Luke sequence is about clarifying and correcting fan misconceptions.
Second, by having this chirpy powerful version of Luke lift the X-Wing (rather than Rey herself) we see that he really has completed his hero's journey, from that doubt and first failure on Dagobah, to certainty and success at Endor, to weakness and exile on Ahch-To, and now peace, purpose and strength in the Force. Again, I imagine most of us got this from the end of TLJ but it's also clear many didn't. (Remember that the biggest thing he ever lifted on-screen before now was Threepio).
Thirdly, in giving Rey the literal means to continue her journey, Luke finally gives her the support that he largely withheld as her mentor. The whole sequence is a mirror both to Rey's first meeting with Luke, and more importantly to Luke's last meeting with Obi-Wan at this same point in RotJ, where he gets the weight of the world dumped on his shoulders: Luke now embodies hope, as he was always destined to, as well as the trust that always defined him.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 May, 2020, 10:21:14 AM
8 dared to do and be something different
As someone who already loathed VIII, all this stuff from Mr. Prime and Mr. Panther about gentler heroism and so forth helps further crystallise some of why I hated it. Cheers, lads! (I'm not having a go at either of you, honest - your assessment of the film's attitude and themes features some insightful analysis, but whereas you both warmed to the idea of the movie undermining what you refer to as the tropes of old, I did not. For the record, I'll probably not like IX either if I ever get round to seeing it, as I don't think JJ Abrams has contributed anything of worth to popular entertainment.)
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 15 May, 2020, 09:16:16 AM
I'll leave you with this reaction video, which is the best reaction to anything I have ever seen ever, and I am totally with her all of the way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIe2TLPryJw
Nice reaction video :)
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 15 May, 2020, 09:16:16 AM
No she won't - what? Creepy Lando - does he want to adopt her or screw her? What? Why? Where? Who?
Apparently it's because Jannah is his daughter. Which obviously doesn't come across well in the actual film itself because you have to read the Visual Dictionary to get clued in* (and a forthcoming novel, unless it's come out now) and just looks creepy, as you say.
Other than having to access other material to get what's in the film (which I don't approve of - not least because the other material may not be available - as with those webpages set up to tie in with TV series or films - and which don't exist now) I also dislike this as it appears you can't have more than one black person in the universe of billions of planets without them being related to each other. We don't know who Finn's parents are either, so it's only a matter of time...
* or media speculation about the Visual Dictionary.
I wouldn't worry about the Visual Dictionary or novels, these things are tossed out and contradicted just as quickly. I generally just go by what's on screen, and I read it as a solid callback to both Han's brief adoptive relationship with Rey, and possibly Lando's affection for the equally-rebellious L3: a desire to explore the galaxy with someone at his side again. His dialogue earlier on also indicates that he still holds a bit of a torch for the more age-appropriate Leia, moving him somewhat out of the predatory sugar daddy arena.
If you accept that she is his daughter, which is a dull idea, for me it's more a repeat of the small-galaxy problem than an all-black-people-are-related one, since there actually are multiple non-white characters in the series now (not many, but more) and Finn turned out to be neither Mace Windu's nor Lando's kid, which was a minor miracle.
Quote from: Greg M. on 15 May, 2020, 11:44:39 AMAs someone who already loathed VIII, all this stuff from Mr. Prime and Mr. Panther about gentler heroism and so forth helps further crystallise some of why I hated it. Cheers, lads! (I'm not having a go at either of you, honest - your assessment of the film's attitude and themes features some insightful analysis, but whereas you both warmed to the idea of the movie undermining what you refer to as the tropes of old, I did not.
Arguably Luke in ROTJ had already opted for the 'gentler heroism' route and TLJ just reiterated it.
Quote from: Greg M. on 15 May, 2020, 11:44:39 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 May, 2020, 10:21:14 AM
8 dared to do and be something different
As someone who already loathed VIII, all this stuff from Mr. Prime and Mr. Panther about gentler heroism and so forth helps further crystallise some of why I hated it.
There's a scene in Last Jedi where Luke, framed in shot over Ray's shoulder so it looks like he's looking at the audience, says anyone expecting to see him jump in with a laser sword and save the day is an idiot, and it always struck me as weird that Last Jedi stans can read deep thematic meaning into almost anything in the movie, yet can't understand why someone who may have waited four decades to see the return of their childhood hero might be less than receptive to seeing him look into camera and call them a big dumbass for wanting to see the movie they expected*.
* And which, to be fair, Disney kind of promised in how pedestrian and familiar TFA was. If fanboys just argued that they were promised pretty-but-unambitious fanwank going by TFA and Rogue One, they'd have had a pretty solid case.
I dunno, I still think it's a pretty standard, bordering on predictable, element of an adventure movie to have a world-weary older character rubbish the naive expectations of the aspiring hero in the first act, only to be inspired by the young hero fulfil those precise expectations in the third.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 15 May, 2020, 10:38:11 PM
Arguably Luke in ROTJ had already opted for the 'gentler heroism' route and TLJ just reiterated it.
I wouldn't argue with the first part - I know, he wins by refusing to fight, albeit after a really good fight. It's more the notion that anyone's top priority from a rip-roaring laser-blasting space opera was "I hope it's got some kindness in it." One of my problems is that TLJ has to rewrite many of its characters to make them joyless assholes in order to try and promote its viewpoint, when, as you suggest, elements of that viewpoint were always present in the franchise, albeit employed in a far-less cack-handed way.
Quote from: Greg M. on 16 May, 2020, 09:51:13 AM
One of my problems is that TLJ has to rewrite many of its characters to make them joyless assholes in order to try and promote its viewpoint, when, as you suggest, elements of that viewpoint were always present in the franchise, albeit employed in a far-less cack-handed way.
The things that helped elevate original Star Wars beyond a standard sci-fi B-movie haven't come in to play in non-original trilogy films.
stackexchange (https://movies.stackexchange.com/questions/10555/how-much-of-star-wars-did-george-lucas-actually-write)
QuoteHe let his friends (among them director Francis Ford Coppola) read the scripts and tape-recorded their comments in order to get some advice. However, the suggestions from his wife Marcia (a film editor who later won an Oscar for Star Wars) were the ones he took most seriously, even though her criticism sometimes made him angry.
Lucas had consulted his co-writers from American Graffiti (Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz) to sharpen the dialogue, which he felt lacked humour and bounce, and although he rejected most of what they came up with, their new ideas gave Lucas renewed confidence in his work.
Lucas later commented on the contributions of Huyck and Katz, in the book Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
Quote from: George LucasDialogue has never been my strong point, and so I talked to Willard and Gloria and asked them to do a quick dialogue polish. I gave them the fourth draft of the script, and they just improved the dialogue where they felt they could make a contribution. Then I took their changes, and sometimes I rewrote some of their lines. Some of their dialogue of course changed again when we started shooting. Some of it survived; some of it didn't. They did about thirty percent of the dialogue.
I'd argue that TLJ does rewrite characters but instead developed. Many in much needed directions.
Finn needed to become dour and self-destructive to the point of idiocy? Poe needed to become a complete dick? Fair enough if that's the direction you enjoyed seeing them go in, or if doing so helped illustrate a theme of the film that you bought into, but whatever substantial issues I had with TFA, I actually liked those fellas. Finn was the highlight of TFA - in TLJ, his character just seems to lose so much of what made him shine.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 May, 2020, 11:35:09 AM
I'd argue that TLJ doesN'T rewrite characters but instead developed. Many in much needed directions.
Thankfully Greg saw through my typos.
You can see the way Luke, Leia and Han all moved on in Empire compared Star Wars - become a little darker, more rounded. I'd say complete.
I'd suggest that's just what happened with Finn and Poe in TLJ and Lucas forbid Luke. That folks don't like it then that's cool. But to dismiss it as completely rewriting them just seems to dismiss the idea that folks in extreme circumstances will change significantly 'cos someone doesn't like that change.
I've stood by TLJ a lot here as I think its a really successful film that is much bolder than the weak, dare I say it corwardly TFA (opinion, opinion, opinion).
Mind I'd also dare to suggest that we have so much invested in this universe (for good and ill) that whatevers done is going to please some, annoy others and there's probably little point trying to convince folks one way or another...
...look I'm watch Attack of the Clones with the boy this weekend, and do it with an open mind... I'm probably not in good place to discuss Star Wars right now...
EDIT: well this whole post was revealed as a misunderstsnding in the time it took to type it, so apologies to Greg and Colin. But it took ages to bash our on my phone so I'm leaving it here. Feel free to skip it's familiar irrelevancies.
Who are we talking about here? Luke and Leia? I don't see any real re-writing there beyond that imposed by 30 years of life at the centre of things. It'd be a damn sight odder if they were the same as when we last saw them in RotJ.
Here i go again, but my personal conclusion is that the issue is that these characters were involved in these sequel films *at all* - once they were, their happy endings had to be undone, and the opening situation of galactic threat could only be a result of their failures. How could Luke be an all-powerful badass Grand Master in charge of a happy and balanced Jedi Order, Leia a wuse Chancellor and Han a doting husband and fsther and there still 3 films of drama left? Once the films took place in their lifetimes, everything they built had to be destroyed. It should never have happened, they should have been left as pleasant menories and maybe ghosts, but it did. And for my money the sequels made the best of this bad premise.
I've offered my view on Luke's character in TLJ a dozen times so I won't go all-out again, but as someone who has failed completely in my endeavours, withdrawn myself from life and friends, and yet find myself somehiw still alive and still with responsibilities, I draw huge comfort from my childhood hero's path to redemption - and find every word of it plausible. I get why people don't like it, but it's not a betrayal of the character at all. (And please don't tell me about the actor's supposed views on the character, until he has the writing credit they are completely irrelevant).
If it's Leia"s Force powers that concern, these are a feature as far back as Empire, when she becomes the first of only 3 living characters in the first 6 films to communicate 'telepathically' - the others are her father and her twin. Her potential is hinted at in Empire by Yoda and explicitly confirmed in Jedi. That it's realised in TLJ and developed in TROS are writing, not re-writing.
I deliberately didn't mention Luke - not because I don't consider his set-up in TFA and subsequent portrayal in TLJ as a betrayal, because I absolutely do, as vehemently as TordelBack absolutely does not - but for that very reason: he's too emotionally charged a subject, tied up with everyone's mutual childhoods in a way that Finn and Poe are not.
My position isn't a million miles away from TordelBack's, in the sense that I don't want these films to exist. As soon their premise was 'you know that childhood fairytale you loved so much? Well, it didn't have a happy ending, screw you!" my response was 'well, screw you too, bad fan-fiction!" I find the premise of Han being a deadbeat dad murdered by his own son utterly offensive. And yet, even from this horrible, horrible starting point, I found that Finn and Poe stood out as really likeable characters - which I don't feel they are in TLJ.
However - and I'll be positive here - whilst I utterly despise the core concept of Kylo Ren, the character actually flourished, and is easily the best thing in TLJ, in part because of a superb performance by Adam Driver, and in part due to being developed in a fairly interesting way.
Many thanks to Greg for not taking umbrage with my misdirected witterings.
It's interesting what you say about the core concept of Ren - in so many ways the Disney stories followed the broad outline of the old EU novels and comics, where Han & Leia's son styles himself as Vader's heir, and becomes a new Sith Lord, following the manipulations of an ersatz Dark Jedi. Rather than killing Han, he kills Luke's wife. His force-linked twin sister Jaina ultimately has to stop him, with Rey filling that role. I hated that concept at the time, in fact I stopped reading EU novels (after about 50) because I just didn't want to see such pain and failure visited on Han and Leia (their youngest son had already been offed a few years previously, Chewie too*).
So I suppose I was both disappointed to see the sequels heading down that exact same dark path, and also somewhat inured to it already. I went in with low expectations, and ended up enjoying them - while I wish they'd taken a different tack and left my heroes entirely alone, I'm still surprised at how well they gave them appropriate endings - Han and Luke because I think they perfectly encapsulate the characters' journeys, and Leia just because of the sensitive and technically ingenious way it was executed.
As to Poe and Finn, I like them both a lot, but I think Finn comes off the better of the two as the story plays out - although that really only comes to fruition in TROS, and doesn't get enough time in the spotlight there, it's very well seeded through the previous two flicks. He has a great story, but it just isn't told clearly enough. His indefatigable platonic devotion to Rey annoys some people, but I think its utterly charming.
Poe's problem is that his character has nowhere to go - he's already his best self when we meet him in TFA, in order to give him some kind of arc they basically set about undermining his strengths. That he's right in his actions in TLJ (the dreadnaught would have destroyed the fleet if he hadn't pushed on, Holdo's command style was appallingly counterproductive) doesn't help, but at least he seems to grow into a more thoughtful leadership role. By TROS he's lost all that easy affection, inspirational confidence and boundless positivity, and he's instead become distant, needy and a bit whiny - plus he goes from displaying unabashed love for BB-8 to being cavalier and downright sneery towards Threepio (which gives us some of TROS's best scenes, but still, it didn't have to be him). I still think he's a fun character, but his journey from "We're gonna do this" to "My friends, I'm sorry , I thought we had a shot" is hardly an inspiring one.
The legacy character who comes out best from TROS is undoubtedly Threepio - it's (finally) his movie, and he is both hilarious and disarmingly heroic throughout.
*(And of course there was a resurrected Emperor who transferred his essence into clone bodies in a secret cloning lab, a hyperspace weapon, a secret fleet hidden in the unknown regions etc etc)
I have my own fistful of Sequel critiques and how they were put together but I've no problem with the idea of them or the older characters being a bit tarnished – I expect that to happen and then to do something with it, but that wasn't entirely successful due to different executions/time pressure/death, whatever. Any emotional attachment I had or have for them as a kid, or adult, doesn't really come into it or even bother me as those are a separate bunch of stories that are unchanged.
I'm posting these snippets not as comment on any particular opinion but as context for the Hollywoodland thinking behind the films in the earlier stages and how they compare to execution and reaction.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/Version%202%208_zps9gxzezma.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/Version%203%201_zpsu1uugtwy.jpg)
Nice stuff, Joe. Where's the Kylo's Bedchamber 03 bit from?
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 May, 2020, 04:11:01 PM
Nice stuff, Joe. Where's the Kylo's Bedchamber 03 bit from?
Both are from this (the artbooks are great).
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8a/a3/94/8aa394de035dfd1bc3ff93934346044e.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/Version%202%209_zpsclboid3h.jpg)
If Anyone is interested.
I got Disney+ for the Mado (enjoyed it) and watched TROS (over six sessions). I found it a bit dull but nowhere near the crapfest of TLJ bbut i think it played too safe. Overall it revealed that they had no clue for the arc of the trilogy. I actually enjoyed all the Palp[atine bits (even though I wanted to hate it) and the film had some great moments (none of which involved Poe and Finn - shame)
[spoiler]I really was kind of moved by the death of kylo..the kiss the smile then he died..very well done iIMHO[/spoiler]
[spoiler]the han solo bit and the luke bit seemed a bit out of place[/spoiler]
[spoiler]REGrant was great[/spoiler]
[spoiler]and although I was a bit meh on the Hux spy angle, I could see how his hatred of Kyl.o might force him to make poor decisions[/spoiler]
Have to disagree about there not being an overall direction - Kylo having a history of chatting to Vader, when we all knew Vader no longer existed, always meant there was someone pulling the strings other than Snoke, and the Emperor was the logical candidate. Ditto Finn [spoiler]being force-sensitive is fuly woven into TFA[/spoiler] - it only looked like a red herring because we expect those (especially from JJ).
The [spoiler]Rey Palpatine[/spoiler] thing is most likely to be a later solution, but rhe [spoiler]Skywalker/Palpatine dyad[/spoiler] it creates definitely works within the context of the 9 film 'saga', just not as well as Rey Nobody dido (for me).
It's obvious that IX was supposed to foreground Leia (and Joe's excerpts above support that) , which would have created a more convincing structure. What they managed to pull off in that respect underctrahic cirvumstances was astounding, and buys all concerned a lot of leeway from me.
Ultimately I was pleasantly surprised how well they managed to fill JJ's mystery boxes that were thematically, and even partly emotionally, satisfying - and even the degree to which the ST fits into the 'rhyming structure' and broader themes of the 9. Once that was achieved, I'm not sure it really matters how tightly planned (or not) it all was. Three movies with different tones feels right, as long as they all work together.
It is a pity that this couldn't have been completed with a slightly more coherent plot, and rather less of 'then this happens and then this guy just happens to be here then that happens' approach.
Also, lots more Maz would have been nice. And more Rose in TROS. And leaving in the Caretaker's Village scene in TLJ.
And no Dominic Monaghan at all.
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 May, 2020, 04:59:04 PM
It's obvious that IX was supposed to foreground Leia (and Joe's excerpts above support that) , which would have created a more convincing structure. What they managed to pull off in that respect underctrahic cirvumstances was astounding, and buys all concerned a lot of leeway from me.
What I find funny is the last week or so fans were (deservedly) gushing over Filoni's fitting end to The Clone Wars and the recent interview where he waxes lyrical (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI1SM4-9HLk) about The Phantom Menace to a bunch of SW directors, but not a peep about these quotes from the art-book that's been out several months with bits and pieces of it copy/pasted into numerous articles – quotes that would 'hang' JJA, Johnson and Kennedy etc.
Have to get that book - so far I've held back on all the Disney artbooks, although if you were to carry out DNA analysis on the browsing copies in Big Bang, you'd detect rather of a lot of Tordeldrool.
Filoni is a righteous dude, albeit with his own strange peccadillos, who genuinely works hard to learn from his more original influences. Large sections of his current fanbase are, however, borderline rabid and blind to what he actually says - and does. I think they must read the fedora as some kind of gang-sign.
What still fascinates me is remembering the utter savaging he and Lucas (less so Henry Gilroy), got on a weekly basis in the Clone Wars discussion forums. The things that were said about Ahsoka Tano in the early days would make Rey and even Rose seem like fan favourites.
The excerpt Joe posts likening Luke to Frodo is interesting in terms of an insight into the thinking behind the choices made; it is also totally antithetical to my understanding of the former. Luke is not Frodo, horribly damaged by a quest he should never have had to undertake - he ends RotJ more emotionally whole, content and fulfilled than ever, knowing he redeemed his father and is at one with the Force, now truly a Jedi Knight. He bears the mark of mistakes past in the form of his artificial hand, but he's clearly on the threshold of a remarkable future.
Quote from: Greg M. on 16 May, 2020, 09:59:08 PM
The excerpt Joe posts likening Luke to Frodo is interesting in terms of an insight into the thinking behind the choices made; it is also totally antithetical to my understanding of the former. Luke is not Frodo, horribly damaged by a quest he should never have had to undertake - he ends RotJ more emotionally whole, content and fulfilled than ever, knowing he redeemed his father and is at one with the Force, now truly a Jedi Knight. He bears the mark of mistakes past in the form of his artificial hand, but he's clearly on the threshold of a remarkable future.
And that he is. As he builds his world and the world trys to build around him. Alas one man and a laser sword do not peace make. Slowly after a good few years of peace and success the darkness builds around him and he learns, like Ben and Yoda before him that he too can't stem the tide. The final bitter blow, his failure to raise a new order of Jedi. And so like the master who taught him he retreats to a life of quite contemptation, guilt and regret.
Until that is a man with a laser sword can be the saviour when needed most and can give the spark of... and I hate to use the most over used term in the whole 'Skywalker saga' ... hope. And like his father he finds his redemption.
For me what you say is utterly right and utterly seen through in TLJ.
We take from things that which we wish to see I guess.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 May, 2020, 10:19:30 PM
We take from things that which we wish to see I guess.
Why you wish to see such a path for Luke, I do not know, but I'm glad I can't see said path.
Quote from: Greg M. on 16 May, 2020, 10:26:37 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 May, 2020, 10:19:30 PM
We take from things that which we wish to see I guess.
Why you wish to see such a path for Luke, I do not know, but I'm glad I can't see said path.
I honestly don't mean this with an ounce of snark, its an honest answer to an honest question. Why 'cos it provides a good and interesting story with all the pathos of the classic heroes. I honestly can't see any value in Luke being a relentless perfect hero from the end of RotJ on.
I never said he was perfect. I am sure he has challenges ahead of him, and sometimes he will make mistakes. But I can never see him as a man ultimately doomed to repeat the mistakes of his mentors and spend a prolonged period of his life in guilt, regret and misery. It's not what happens.
Quote from: Apestrife on 15 May, 2020, 01:40:52 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 15 May, 2020, 09:16:16 AM
I'll leave you with this reaction video, which is the best reaction to anything I have ever seen ever, and I am totally with her all of the way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIe2TLPryJw
Nice reaction video :)
When I clicked, I was expecting this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=34&v=nfdsc4Q4R2k&feature=emb_title (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=34&v=nfdsc4Q4R2k&feature=emb_title)
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 May, 2020, 10:19:30 PM
Until that is a man with a laser sword can be the saviour when needed most and can give the spark of... and I hate to use the most over used term in the whole 'Skywalker saga' ... hope.
Oh, I thought it was "I've got a bad feeling."
I don't think Luke is Frodo either - he emerges whole from Return of the Jedi, his lone vigil at Vader's pyre followed by Leia drawing him away from the lineup of approving ghosts and back to party with his friends perfectly sums up the character's completeness. There is no wound to re-open every 6th October (he's already confronted the reality of his hand), and the white shores of Valinor are all around him; perhaps waiting at the end of a long life, but not as an escape from one he no longer belongs to. Yoda's final instruction is to pass on what he has learned, so unlike Frodo his purpose is still ahead of him.
I also don't think his later failure was a passive one, or that it grew from his own nature: in TROS we learn that it was Palpatine that twisted Ben Solo, just like he did Anakin - so Luke's failure to keep Ben on the light path wasn't any more of a deficiency in his abilities as a teacher and mentor than Obi-Wan's was; rather it was a defeat in a hidden struggle with a Sith mastermind he didn't even know existed. He thought he was contending with Snoke, but that was only one part of what was going on.
Where Luke did fail was in a single moment of despair when confronted with the complete undoing of his happy ending, and in that instant weighing options that should never have been considered. I can happily allow him this one moment of doubt, because he didn't go through with it, without ascribing it to some deep damage he sustained in the OT, or a flawed character. And his subsequent withdrawal follows on as a natural, even rational decision: this system he's devoted his life to rebuilding only ever ends in darkness. Better it ends now.
Of course he's wrong about that, but it'll take time and events for him to see that.
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 May, 2020, 10:52:48 AM
I don't think Luke is Frodo either - he emerges whole from Return of the Jedi, his lone vigil at Vader's pyre followed by Leia drawing him away from the lineup of approving ghosts and back to party with his friends perfectly sums up the character's completeness. There is no wound to re-open every 6th October (he's already confronted the reality of his hand), and the white shores of Valinor are all around him; perhaps waiting at the end of a long life, but not as an escape from one he no longer belongs to. Yoda's final instruction is to pass on what he has learned, so unlike Frodo his purpose is still ahead of him.
I also don't think his later failure was a passive one, or that it grew from his own nature: in TROS we learn that it was Palpatine that twisted Ben Solo, just like he did Anakin - so Luke's failure to keep Ben on the light path wasn't any more of a deficiency in his abilities as a teacher and mentor than Obi-Wan's was; rather it was a defeat in a hidden struggle with a Sith mastermind he didn't even know existed. He thought he was contending with Snoke, but that was only one part of what was going on.
Where Luke did fail was in a single moment of despair when confronted with the complete undoing of his happy ending, and in that instant weighing options that should never have been considered. I can happily allow him this one moment of doubt, because he didn't go through with it, without ascribing it to some deep damage he sustained in the OT, or a flawed character. And his subsequent withdrawal follows on as a natural, even rational decision: this system he's devoted his life to rebuilding only ever ends in darkness. Better it ends now.
Of course he's wrong about that, but it'll take time and events for him to see that.
The sequels failed by not telling this story. Instead we got a rehash of the original trilogy. The whole think trod water.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 17 May, 2020, 03:13:49 PM
The sequels failed by not telling this story. Instead we got a rehash of the original trilogy. The whole think trod water.
There's a lot of truth in that, even though I generally enjoyed them, love one of them, and am happy to have the new characters in my head.
I think we could have had the New Republic/Luke's Jedi era films had there been any enthusiasm for it in the early 90s, show rather than tell what happened next, but once the actors were left to age for 35 years it was necessary to introduce new heroes, and thus move the old ones off the board - or to skip right ahead to where they were memories or ghosts. A ghostly Palpatine threatening a complacent galaxy might have been enough of a link.
The (financial) decision to juggle both casts on screen, along with all the nostalgia hardware and costuming, meant that there was very little time to do anything new, even across 3 movies.
Rather than 'treading water' I think it was more of a case of having no time for worldbuilding or for a developed plot - hence we get Blow Up the Death Star Again, SpaceshIp Chase & Jedi Training and Find a Maguffin So We Can Blow up the Death Star Yet Again, because those things aren't much of a distraction from the character dramas.
When the sequels
aren't doing the same old things in familiar deserts, forests and spaceship hallways, they are at their most interesting - Rey and Finn's stories are pretty cool, Poe is an affable third wheel, Ben is a great villain. There just wasn't enough of their world that wasn't part of the old one.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 17 May, 2020, 01:05:28 AM
Quote from: Apestrife on 15 May, 2020, 01:40:52 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 15 May, 2020, 09:16:16 AM
I'll leave you with this reaction video, which is the best reaction to anything I have ever seen ever, and I am totally with her all of the way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIe2TLPryJw
Nice reaction video :)
When I clicked, I was expecting this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=34&v=nfdsc4Q4R2k&feature=emb_title (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=34&v=nfdsc4Q4R2k&feature=emb_title)
I still look like that. Even if I've seen the scene at least 20 times :)