Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[JOE SOAP]

I think Johnson did the best he could with a bad setup, with one exception - having Luke even contemplate murdering a teenager in cold blood is - just did not sit right with me, and just felt like a rather hollow attempt to get us to sympathise with Kylo Ren.

Luke's dialogue during the last recall:

"I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him."

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Last_Jedi

In Luke's final version it's not a contemplated moment and not only about Ben but about Snoke as well. The intentional way his metal hand is shown to suddenly jerk with the saber in reflex, without him looking at it, underscores this. I saw this version of the scene more about empathising with Luke – he is Vader's son so a little bit of the dark-side is expected. For Luke it's a greater moral dilemma than killing Vader because Kylo has yet to become the same – but then of course he goes and kills Luke's students rather than just hurting Luke.

[JOE SOAP]

Am I imagining it or was there an early story leak during preproduction of TFA that suggested that Luke had gone into exile as he had become so powerful with the force he could not contain it, and ultimately ended up inadvertently killing Han?

A Luke killing Han scuttlebutt was reported in late November 2014 after the film had finished shooting.

'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' Rumours: Han Solo Killed by Luke Skywalker?

"Luke Skywalker, bearded and fully fleshed, raising a GREEN lightsaber at Han, who in turn has his classic blaster pointed at him," Kyle of Star Wars 7 News noted. "Adam Driver stands, not so much beside Han, but more off to the side. The perspective almost makes Driver look like he is in the middle. Driver looks concerned, but not frightened, more like he is pondering his next move."

"The three of them are standing in what I guess is a cave or some partially natural environment. The ground beneath them is gravel or dirt. The walls are definitely rock," Kyle noted, adding that Luke resembles a crazy person.

[TordelBack]

No question that Luke's momentary 'pull to the Dark' was the hardest thing for me to take in the film.  But as Joe says, it's part of who he's always been: that he resists, that Luke doesn't do what Anakin does to save Padme, both at Endor to save his sister, and then at the Temple to save everything he loves.

Hard though that lapse is for the viewer, that's what makes him Luke Skywalker, and neither some stainless flawless hero, nor the man he sees in the cave beneath the tree.

(It's worth noting too that Luke always draws first - both at Bespin and at Endor, the first blade ignited is his.)

[Theblazeuk]

We rewatched TFA and I am really hoping that the vision of Ren and the (I assume) Knights of Ren on the rainy planet come to pass. Those guys look dorky cool and I fear they won't be around as my gut feeling is they were at best Snoke's bodyguards [spoiler]that got chopped up[/spoiler], and that originally that vision is supposed to be when Luke's academy was destroyed - which it can't be because in the vision they're all in the full costume.

[TordelBack]

We rewatched TFA and I am really hoping that the vision of Ren and the (I assume) Knights of Ren on the rainy planet come to pass. Those guys look dorky cool and I fear they won't be around as my gut feeling is they were at best Snoke's bodyguards [spoiler]that got chopped up[/spoiler], and that originally that vision is supposed to be when Luke's academy was destroyed - which it can't be because in the vision they're all in the full costume.

I had also assumed that this was from the destruction of Luke's academy - [spoiler]but this now seems very unlikely, as it wasn't raining that night in Luke's flashback, Kylo had his helmet, and the Knights (if those are they) are all kitted out as space-gangstas too, and it seems improbable they kept that stuff in their Padawan hope-chests: so if not the future, certainly an unexplored part of the past. Luke mentions that Ben took a number of his students with him, I hope against hope that this is a neat bit of ball-passing between Abrams and Johnson, and after keeping them safely off-stage during the carnage of TLJ, Supreme Leader Ren has his coterie of Dark Jedi by his side in IX[/spoiler]: an Order of disposable baddies was something that was painfully lacking in the Prequels.  Ideally we'd see a wee bit more of a flashbackabout how Snoke came into Ben's life too: it seems like something we should know (in the surprisingly enjoyable new-canon Leia novel Bloodline, [spoiler]we discover that Ben first learnt that Vader was his Gran'pappy while already at Luke's Academy, and then third-hand from media reports of a successful (First Order orchestrated) political smear campaign against Leia. Assuming that Disney are serious about the content of their new EU, this seems like an excellent starting point for his disaffection[/spoiler]). 

[JLC]

I think Johnson did the best he could with a bad setup, with one exception - having Luke even contemplate murdering a teenager in cold blood is - just did not sit right with me, and just felt like a rather hollow attempt to get us to sympathise with Kylo Ren.

Bad set up? There was plenty set up with lots of interesting places to take it. Sadly Mr Johnson chose to ignore it. At least he had the good sense not to leave any interesting plot threads or develop things in any meaningful way. Audiences can't be upset by what happens next as there are no cliffhangers or any tantilising plot threads.

[radiator]

Bad set up?

Yes. It was always obvious to me that we were never going to get truly satisfying answers to who Rey is, who Snoke is, why Luke went into exile (dooming the galaxy in the process to a crisis of his own making), even down to other minor things like why Maz had that lightsaber* or why Luke left a map, or why R2 D2 had the rest of it and randomly woke up - because the sloppy writing of TFA didn't leave room for it.

*Speaking of Maz, she really got Jar Jar'd in this one, huh?

[Tjm86]

Well, we finally got around to seeing this.  Have to be honest, the general tenor of discussion has gone a long way towards shaping my expectations which was probably a good thing as i came away thinking it was better than I'd expected. 

I would agree that it was overlong.  In fact it started to put me in mind of the Pyrhamus and Thisbe death scene in which Pyrhamus keeps dying.  It just felt like it had reached the end but then kept going.  A serious case of having too many ideas and not enough editorial control.

My other gripe was the 'nods' towards Empire and Jedi.  It got to the point where I was starting to spend less time following the story and more time looking for the next 'homage'.  Scenes from Hoth, the inner Death Star, hell Snoke's speech was an almost word perfect quotation.   The General Huck on hold gag rankled a bit as well.  As a parody it would have worked perfectly but not for the main event.  Sorry Rian, leave it for Taff Wars.

Overall; not the best, not the worst, not earth shattering, a bit above 'meh'.  Someone needs to do the Reduced Shakespeare version.

[Colin YNWA]

I need to catch up with this thread as there seems to be a LOT of opinion on it and having rewatched it again today (the excuse being to take the kids, which I'll get back to) I have a lot of opinion about it too.

The most important thing, this is the first Star Wars film my kids have seen in the cinema, they are 6 and 8 and they absolutely LOVED it. So for me this film can do no wrong. Sid my son was having air lightsaber fights with Luke and Kylo (which I quietly tried to hamper reluctantly as I loved it, but it must have been infuriating for others) he just couldn't contain himself he was so excited. My daughter was just a rolled up bundle of joy, tension and I have to admit at a couple of points tears (she cried three times at Paddington 2).

So yeah that box well and truly ticked.

For me after a second viewing and removed from the nerves, tension and hyper-anticipation of the first view, I can now calmly and assuriedly proclaim it FUCKIN' AMAZIN'

It gets better and its last test before I give serious consideration of whether it gets place 4 or 3 in my Star Wars list (its never going to top Empire and Star Wars now is it) is how it stands up to viewing on the small screen. It definately the best Star Wars film since Return.

Its the most visually stunning of them all. At times the glory of its visuals feel a little forced (pun indeeded or not, who cares) but God at times its breathtaking.

It flies by on second viewing, the good bits getting better, the awkward bits feeling more comfortable. And I spoted all sorts of smart, sharp nice bits that I missed first time.

Its a perfect ending of Luke's story, the perfect continuation of Rey's and holds the charm and excitment of the originals without being slavish and overly referenial, when it is its to, box it up and put it way. Sheding the old skin to allow the new to truly truly shine.

What a trimpuh.

[sheridan]

Bad set up?

Yes. It was always obvious to me that we were never going to get truly satisfying answers to who Rey is, who Snoke is, why Luke went into exile (dooming the galaxy in the process to a crisis of his own making), even down to other minor things like why Maz had that lightsaber* or why Luke left a map, or why R2 D2 had the rest of it and randomly woke up - because the sloppy writing of TFA didn't leave room for it.

I was satisfied with the answer to who Rey was (as long as it sticks) - too many sci-fantasy stories are based on who you're descended from rather than who you are.  As for Snoke - there wasn't really a question about who he was - that was all fan-generated - in the films themselves his identity was as much a mystery as the Emperor was in the holy trinity.

*Speaking of Maz, she really got Jar Jar'd in this one, huh?

I think your idea of what Jar Jar is and mine are completely different.

[sheridan]

*Speaking of Maz, she really got Jar Jar'd in this one, huh?

I think your idea of what Jar Jar is and mine are completely different.

Just so you don't mistakenly think I like Binks - I mean that to me Jar Jar is a rubbish character from the off, which I don't think Maz is (and can't see how a previously acceptable character can be Jar Jar'd).

[GrudgeJohnDeed]

What do people think to the way they seem to be making the story up as they go along here, on a per-film basis? Would anyone prefer they had more of a roadmap?

[Colin YNWA]

Bad set up?

Yes. It was always obvious to me that we were never going to get truly satisfying answers to who Rey is, who Snoke is, why Luke went into exile (dooming the galaxy in the process to a crisis of his own making), even down to other minor things like why Maz had that lightsaber* or why Luke left a map, or why R2 D2 had the rest of it and randomly woke up - because the sloppy writing of TFA didn't leave room for it.

I was satisfied with the answer to who Rey was (as long as it sticks) - too many sci-fantasy stories are based on who you're descended from rather than who you are.  As for Snoke - there wasn't really a question about who he was - that was all fan-generated - in the films themselves his identity was as much a mystery as the Emperor was in the holy trinity.

*Speaking of Maz, she really got Jar Jar'd in this one, huh?

I think your idea of what Jar Jar is and mine are completely different.

I meant to play with the

tags but think I'll just mess it up so I'll leave the lot in.

The main point I want to raise is I think there is an entirely satisfactory continuation explaination for Rey's family. I think her parents being [spoiler]nobody[/spoiler] and [spoiler]nobody[/spoiler] is great, surely nearly all Jedi have such parentage... unless they are all just one big interspecies interbreeding family thing going on when there was loads of them. Some people [spoiler]just happen to be strong in the force [/spoiler]. Its gives entirely justified underscoring to the point that this is Rey's story, not Luke's, or Leia's or Han's or Darth's but Rey's a new story and though intertwined with the stories of the past, this is a new and fresh thing. I applaud it and was very very pleased with it.

Also I don't think anyone was more disappointed with Luke's reaction to Kylo Ben than Luke and hence he took himself off the list of options to prevent worse things happening. Again entirely pleasing and well done for me and a great explaination for Luke sucking the space cow juice and hangin' with the Fraggle Beanie Boos.

[TordelBack]

why R2 D2 had the rest of it and randomly woke up

I've got a theory*.  Contrary to JJA's assertion, Luke didn't leave a map, and R2 didn't get his bit on the first Death Star. I'd suggest that Luke and R2 scouted out Ahch-to in the X-Wing a long time ago**, when Luke was in his post-RotJ phase of learning about the Jedi, and (most of) the chart of that voyage is what R2 is carrying. Going on a complicated space-archaeological expedition doesn't seem like something a man fleeing the destruction of all he loves would do: running to the best hideout he already knows from his days as pioneer of the Jedi rebirth seems more likely.

To prevent the location of the sacred First Temple falling into enemy hands, Luke separated the critical magic-hyperspace-compass-led part of the journey from R2's hyperspace navigation memory files, hiding the USB stick somewhere safe just in case (Who knows where?  Long time ally and apparently friend of the family Lor San Tekka is able to lay his hands on it but not without a great deal of effort, so somewhere). 

After Ben's betrayal, [spoiler]Luke retreats back to 'the most unfindable place in the galaxy' ostensibly to die (but also perhaps with the vague hope of repairing his shattered faith in a sacred place with texts to read) this time without Artoo, using the compass.  [/spoiler]This is more or less the same pattern Yoda follows with Dagobah, following Qui-Gon's advice, according to Season 6 of The Clone Wars.

In the Falcon lounge scene, TLJ possibly shows why R2 'wakes up' when he does: the only witness to the entire saga also wants his master (and friend?) back in the game. He's 'only' a droid, but one who hasn't had his memory wiped in at least 60 years, who remembers the Jedi and both Anakin and Ben's falls, and who clearly has agency of his own.  Perhaps once he hears that in this Rey character there is someone who has faced up to Kylo Ren, he believes it's time to bring Luke back to the fight, just as he once brought back Obi-Wan.  It's not all orders and programming with R2, and it never has been.



* That's it a demon. A dancing demon! No something isn't right there.
**The Battlefront 2 game hints at a timeline for this in having Luke source the Jack Sparrowesque Compass we see in his hut from one of Palpatine's abandoned facilities.

[radiator]

I think your idea of what Jar Jar is and mine are completely different.

I meant as in they drastically reduced her screen time in the second film in the same way they did with Jar Jar in Clones and Sith. I remember rumours that there was friction betweens Abrams and the actress who played Maz (she was originally supposed to have a bigger role in TFA as I understand it).

What do people think to the way they seem to be making the story up as they go along here, on a per-film basis? Would anyone prefer they had more of a roadmap?

I think it's a pretty common misconception that works of fiction are planned out far in advance, when the majority of writers are just winging it and making it all up as they go. Even the creators of things that often seem meticulously mapped out in advance (Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, the original Star Wars trilogy) usually have only a vague idea of the direction of the overall story and are just furiously laying down train tracks as they go. Making it seem like it was all part of a wider plan is the real skill.

RE: Rey, think I've made it pretty clear by now that I have no problem with her being a nobody, but it makes for a very underwhelming resolution to what was teased as a mystery over the course of two whole films. It's the execution that blows, not the concept.

Tordels, I applaud that display of mental gymnastics. Don't ever change.