It wasn't just me, was it?
All of you other old and creaky readers, when you read this, you were five pages into part five of Indigo Prime and you were drawing connections in your mind to the very, very violent climax of Killing Time, right? You were back in your mind's eye to someplace around prog 744. You were twenty-five years or so younger, weren't you? Time turned back. I was working at a call center in Athens GA, where I wish I was still. (In Athens, not the call center.) Then I turned the page. Remember how violent that was? Remember how you didn't believe this was happening to the heroes of the story? Remember how you turned the page? The other pages?
My. I haven't enjoyed six pages of any comic that much in a very, very long time.
McMahon back on Dredd, too! Happy times.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 21 October, 2017, 02:19:25 AM
McMahon back on Dredd, too! Happy times.
Say whaaaaat?! Can't wait! :D
I hope you return to a happier place soon, Grant.
Damnit, is It Wednesday yet? My scepticism can't repel a Goggans endorsement of that magnitude.
That Indigo Prime reveal was fantastic, though coloured a little by the question of whether it was Smith's intention/had his blessing. I'd hope so, and I did geek out quite a bit...
[spoiler]A John Smith-verse? :-)[/spoiler]
Quote from: Darren Stephens on 21 October, 2017, 09:13:59 AM
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 21 October, 2017, 02:19:25 AM
McMahon back on Dredd, too! Happy times.
Say whaaaaat?! Can't wait! :D
Yep. Think there were a couple of other strips but I completely taken in by that. Nice little one off but the maestro is back and at the top of his game. Worth the cover price for this strip alone.
(https://i.imgur.com/0GCEK6L.jpg)
Prog's a belter this week! :o
Agreed. Top notch proggage. Slaine (for me, at least) coasts on the brilliance of Simon Davis, whilst the oddly Dredd-less Dredd is entirely redeemed by the razor-sharp cartooning of McMahon. Sin/Dex does what it does best, being splendidly puntastic and thoroughly entertaining, while Absalom and Indigo Prime lead the pack, with IP nudging out in front thanks to a thoroughly chilling bout of ultraviolence, followed by [spoiler]that plot twist/intro[/spoiler].
All this, arriving so soon after the Scream & Misty special hit my doormat. The House of Tharg is spoiling us just now.
I read Grant's post first thing this morning and my initial feeling was excitement at the news McMahon was back on Dredd. Cameos in landmark Progs aside, I had seriously never expected to see him do a strip in 2000AD again.
Then I remembered the last few strips he did ( as I recall anyway): Howler, 3rd Element, The Book of Scars and the Slaine 1 pager in Prog 2000AD, plus the cover of the 2nd printing of The Cursed Earth Uncensored, none of which are to my taste. I have seen him give talks where he says he keeps changing his style and simply can't draw the way he used to. To my taste the stuff he did on Dredd from the mid Prog 100s until Block Mania is some of the best art we have ever seen.
So it will be interesting to see how the Squaxx react to this. Especially in comparison to last week's, which unfairly in my opinion had been roundly slated on social media. To my eye I prefer Simon Roy's effort to McMahon's this week.
As to the story, both this week's and last week's read more like Future Shocks to me.
Unlike Grant I can't get too excited about the reveal in Indigo Prime this week. Sorry but [spoiler]Revere sits proudly at the top of my list least favourite 2000AD thrills of all time and I can't remember who Motherhead is. [/spoiler]
Slaine was good- more action packed than of late.
Always good to have SinDex in the Prog and Absalom carries on in much the way it normally does.
Holy crap - Mcmahon Dredd!!!
First enthusiasm I've had for the prog in a long time.......it's beautiful!
Well before we delve into the good stuff inside does anyone fancy speculating that Tharg had a scheduling boob on the old cover front. Last week folks were bemoaning he fact that we had no Absalom cover and lo this week we do, which seems entirely fitting for the content of the story last week... maybe this weeks cover didn't arrive and a quick juggle was needed and last weeks was a rush job? Who knows, all ideal speculation ... but ya gotta think something happened?
Anyway lets a piddling matter when you consider the contents of this weeks Prog. Well bugger me sideways this week is FULL of surprises, the vast majority pleasent.
1) Dredd McMahon, as far as know unannouced. Lets do that again McMAHON UNANNOUCED!!! Get annoucing this shit Tharg. I want my McMahon heralded Green Bounce. Scream his coming from the roof tops so folks can ally around in fevered excitment. He's back, he'sback and he's sequential at that! Oh and while I'm at it there was a story from Rory McConville, drawn by Mike FUCKIN' McMahon and its another nice example for this Dredd from a direct angle, which based on the Meg last week seems to be a bit of a thing of his. Great stuff
2). Indigo Prime has the aforementioned surprise [spoiler][spoiler]reintroduction[/spoiler][/spoiler] that of course Tharg excells at not Heralding making this a glorious surprise which Green Bounce its getting very good at. Kek-W sure ain't holding back in his efforts to get us to buy into his Indigo Prime... and after this reveal how could I be anything but. Oh and the 'fight' between The Nihilist and the Burrough's squad is just brilliantly done, before the cavalry... well leaps to the rescue... maybe...
3) Slaine is a pleasent surprise by maintaining last weeks pace with a glorious episode so fantastically paced from the opening spread onwards.
Okay the last two don't have any surprises both Absalom and Sinister Dexter in particular being absolutely superb. typically great turns from these two strips. Absalom I've really warmed to over the last few stories, S&D has always been a firm favourite of mind since I returned to the Prog when Malone was running... oh there another series that Tharg pulled the old one two shocker with so well.... he's been at this game for a while now hasn't he! Can I just make special note about how great The Mighty Yeowell is this week.
So yes another supreme week from Tharg and man he doesn't half keep some tricks up this sleeve huh!
I should say that, although he is a true master of his art, Chris Blythe's style doesn't really work with McMahon's style. At least not to my eye.
But it's still really good, I don't want this to look like a criticism, the art looks great. I just can't help but think what Dylan Teague would have made of it...
If seeing McMahon's art is the sort of thing that gets you excited, then I'd have thought that Tharg announcing it in advance would spoil the surprise and defeat the object.
Quote from: Richard on 21 October, 2017, 09:46:03 PM
If seeing McMahon's art is the sort of thing that gets you excited, then I'd have thought that Tharg announcing it in advance would spoil the surprise and defeat the object.
To be fair if you fancy picking a hole at my reaction this week the best line of attack would surely be to contrast my reaction this week, to my defense of Simon Roy last week. Its as though I'm having fun with my silly words on this here internet nonsense... mind my words would have to make a little more sense for that to work fair to say!
Quote from: Richard on 21 October, 2017, 09:46:03 PM
If seeing McMahon's art is the sort of thing that gets you excited, then I'd have thought that Tharg announcing it in advance would spoil the surprise and defeat the object.
Truthfully I haven't read anything in the prog of late and had no knowledge of anything Mcmahon. So was a compete surprise to me.
As i have mentioned in other threads my interest has severely waned for the prog,lawless maintains my interest in the Meg (winslade being the most amazing artist that tooth has produced this generation) and unless there is some consistent Wagner Dredd or Strontium Dog in the near future my subscription will be ending.
The unexpected arrival of Mick is a ray of sunshine for me.
I wonder if they could Brian Bolland to do a strip or a cover again.
Quote from: Swerty on 22 October, 2017, 12:47:32 PM
I wonder if they could Brian Bolland to do a strip or a cover again.
There's always been talk of a script that John Wagner wrote for him as he always wanted to do a story with fatties is. I don't know if it will ever happen (also in my head there's something about the strip John Haward did a while ago, was that the same script being used up or did I imagine that?) so you never know...
Seeing McMahon on Dredd and reading that first put me in a great frame of mind for the rest of the prog.
I'm enjoying IP, even though I'm rather at sea with it, and the art continues to impress. Even read Slaine this week...lovely opening spread.
Good punchy cover too!
QuoteI wonder if they could Brian Bolland to do a strip or a cover again
Bolland and/or McMahon have given Tharg one cover per annum for the last five years. McMahon drew an episode of
Sláine: Book Of Scars, and both he and Bolland gave us a page of strip art in last year's 2000th issue.
I
love the preview I've seen of this week's McMahon Dredd, but Bolland's page in prog 2000 (the real Prog 2000) looked like he wasn't given enough time to do his best* or his heart wasn't in it.
Besides, if Tharg wants new Bolland strip art, he can just call Tom Foster.
* 1771 McMahon (2012), 1821 Bolland (2013), 1848 McMahon (2013) plus strip, Megazine 350 Bolland (2014), 1924 Bolland (2015), prog 2000 McMahon & Bolland (2016) plus Cursed Earth reprint
** About three months per page, judging by The Killing Joke. Bolland's spent the last thirty years as a cover artist, and he describes himself as retired.
QuoteBolland's spent the last thirty years as a cover artist
One way around that would be for someone to write a six-panel Judge Dredd story which he can then draw as six full pages.
Overall, I enjoyed this week's prog very much. The Dredd story was entertaining and it's always great to have an old master doing the art. A bit of action in Slaine make this more enjoyable than of late. Sin/Dex story was another good gunsharks defending the underdog story, and as for Absalom, I especially liked the cover this week - the artist got his scowl down to a tee.
The only thing I couldn't get on board was Indigo Prime. To be honest, I have never got this series. I can just about understand the premise and in its original run the stories didn't last too long so it didn't matter if I didn't follow any individual story. However, for me this current run is just too inaccessible. I can understand that 2000AD is an anthology, so there are very differing stories being presented, so I'm happy that it is only one story I don't like.
Quote from: Richard on 23 October, 2017, 12:02:26 AM
QuoteBolland's spent the last thirty years as a cover artist
One way around that would be for someone to write a six-panel Judge Dredd story which he can then draw as six full pages.
Not sure Simon Davis would want to share this series of
Sláine with another artist.
Quote from: Frank on 22 October, 2017, 08:29:17 PM
If Tharg wants new Bolland strip art, he can just call Tom Foster.
Hm, that's unnecessary on several levels.
McMahon. This alone will force me to catch up progs/megs ASAP, Lawless aside (actually Absalom is excellent too) the Thrills aren't too hot for me currently. I like to think Mick's evolving/devolving style will be radically altered every time we're presented with it. The prog after the divisive Simon Roy - which I have quickly scanned at least - is delicious timing :)
Quote from: Fungus on 23 October, 2017, 10:23:24 AM
Quote from: Frank on 22 October, 2017, 08:29:17 PM
If Tharg wants new Bolland strip art, he can just call Tom Foster.
Hm, that's unnecessary on several levels.
An entirely appropriate endorsement of Foster, however, whose style adds some delicious Leach overtones and an almost Yeowellish sense of space to make a unique mix that I would personally prefer to see than more current Bolland... Which brings me to: when are we getting more Storm Warning? Loved that strip.
Yeah some more Fosters!
Tom Foster is very open (and very funny) about what he's doing.*
* ... which is, like artists as talented and distinctive as Bill Sienkiewicz and Greg Staples before him, using the identifiable, codified sensibilities of an established artist as a way into producing great work, before going on to develop their own aesthetic. That Sorry Bobs story the great Colin MacNeil produced could be Carlos himself, if you squint a bit.
In which case, you could have maybe said as much with a quote from Tom.
Like Fungus, I read your first post as being slightly snarky. I let it slide because tone is hard/impossible to read on text like this. It could have been a badly worded compliment or it could have been a carefully worded dig at Tom and Tharg.
But if people are repeatedly picking up the wrong tone in posts etc. It may be an idea to change the posting style.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 23 October, 2017, 01:56:06 PM
... you could have maybe said as much with a quote from Tom.
All board members should hold to this high standard.
If you
had encountered sarcasm, I'm not sure why that would require your attention more than boarders saying they just don't like a creator's work, or that it's of poor quality - both of which are weekly staples of this particular thread.
What's the difference, Tips?
I genuinely don't understand the question.
I thought you were being snarky. So did Fungus. Turns out we were wrong and you were just sharing a joke that Tom has already shared somewhere else.
I was just thinking of ways of not repeating the mistake; one way is for us to make positive interpretation of what we read here. The other was maybe for you to think about how you post things. That was all.
I'll do my bit and leave it at that.
McMahon back on Dredd: so much energy in every frame. Lovely stuff.
Fair enough. You and the way you post seem alright to me, Tips.
I'm a bit lost here. Foster's stuff does recall Bolland, in the best possible way. So did early Cliff Robinson, some Brett Ewins and a lot of Gary Leach. Is it not okay to mention/joke about this? TBH I think we're being a bit hard on Frank here, or at least a bit quick to read malice into a simple quip.
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 October, 2017, 05:51:01 PM
... a simple quip.
Simple?
SIMPLE? I'll gie ye fuckin' simple, ya raj c***!
Every thread on this board should, ideally, revolve around
me, but I'll fake humility with a token gesture towards discussing the comic.
Wooly's correct in saying Dylan Teague would do a great job colouring McMahon, but Chris Blythe's work here is
brilliant.The muted palette, textures, and use of non-black lines seem to allude to McMahon's own colour aesthetic.
Rather than deploying the same box of tricks for every job, Blythe considers each assignment on its own terms, creating a custom methodology to bring out the best in
this specific line work and the precise tone of
this story.
Contrasting Blythe's work here with the equally superb but
totally different range of techniques he utilised colouring Colin MacNeil for the last few weeks makes you realise Blythe's credit really should read COLOUR
ARTIST.
*** The above is a joke, predicated upon the ambiguous meaning of the word 'simple'; signifying, on the one hand, a lack of complication, and, in another sense, stupidity - as in the Forest Gump spoof, Simple Jack, a film within the film Tropic Thunder. I am not aggrieved by TordelBack's supportive comment, and respect him highly. I felt free to address him as a cunt safe in the knowledge that our long association, shared sense of humour, and the universal high regard he enjoy with all board members mean he was sure to discern that the term of abuse was used for ironic effect. My use of the three stars denoting the word 'cunt' to direct the reader's attention to this footnote was also a sort of textual joke in itself.
You know, I see now that I was wrong. A full explanation of the specific (and wider) cultural context of every gag takes no time at all and, if possible, makes it even more hilarious.
Have to say, Frank's posts are often the most enjoyable (and well-expressed and bizarrely detailed) posts on this forum...
Often the good stuff is open to interpretation/misinterpretation, it's part of the fun really...
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 October, 2017, 05:51:01 PM
I'm a bit lost here. Foster's stuff does recall Bolland, in the best possible way. So did ... some Brett Ewins
Now that's an interesting one. Any particular bits, its not one I see but would defo like to see where your coming from there.
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 October, 2017, 05:51:01 PM
TBH I think we're being a bit hard on Frank here, or at least a bit quick to read malice into a simple quip.
I did say I was wrong and would read in a more positive tone in the future. Unusual for the internet, I know.
Colin...
(https://tygertale.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/ja1.jpg)
Slightly off-topic, but that REVENGE you see in what is the first page of that particular story is in fact the story title, and not "Four Dark Judges" as some c**** once came up with and which, sadly, appears to have stuck. Oh well.
*Frank is in fact brilliant and an integral part of this board.
Quote from: Richard on 23 October, 2017, 10:02:06 PM
... that REVENGE you see ... is in fact the story title ...
That I did not know. Cheers, Richard.
Well a previous Tharg missed it when it was in the Best Of monthly.
Quote from: Tiplodocus
I did say I was wrong and would read in a more positive tone in the future. Unusual for the internet, I know.
You're not wrong there!
David is right about which Ewins 'homages' Bolland. Bloody good job too!
But Richard, is that just wishful thinking, or do you have a source for that? Cos I've always hated the other non-title. 'Revenge' really lifts the whole story somehow!
Surely if 'Revenge' was the story title, it would say "Revenge: Part 1"...?
None of the episodes have the episode number on them, and after the first episode none of them have the title again. But in the Best Of 2000AD they listed it as "Four Dark Judges" and I'm sure they've called it that since.
Including in Barney:
http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=416 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=416)
OMG (as the youth are wont to say) How good is it to see Mick on Dredd. Nice little story to go along with it too. I thought the colouring really suited it too. All round a top job. That fellah from last weeks wobbly Dredd can do more if we get this to follow. Top shadow drop Tharg.
Quote from: James Stacey on 23 October, 2017, 10:50:40 PM
How good is it to see Mick on Dredd. Nice little story to go along with it too. I thought the colouring really suited it too. All round a top job.
Normally I'm not a fan of the modern McMahon style, but I loved this -- particularly Chris Blythe's brilliant colouring, which brought it to life much better than McMahon's usual flat, OTT palette.
I really enjoyed this week's prog, especially the McMahon art on Dredd, the twist in Indigo Prime and the punning in SinDex. Meanwhile, Absalom is splendid, rollicking hokum and I love the art on Slaine.
Grudsakes! This is the one week that WH Smith didn't get their order!
Now have to wait until tomorrow... not happy
I'm afraid the SPOILER in Indigo Prime has just contributed to my sense that it's the work of a man wearing a rubber John Smith mask rather than someone who's completely sympathetic to the series and can make it work in his own style. Even if this was exactly where Smith was planning to go, I imagine he'd do it in a much subtler and stranger tone.
Quote from: Richard on 23 October, 2017, 10:49:10 PM
Including in Barney:
http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=416 (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=416)
But it's not unknown for Barney to mistake captions or other text for proper story titles, e.g. the Future Shock in Prog 1872 is called 'The Modular War' - and that title appears on the first page of the strip - but Barney thinks it's called 'Connection Lost' because those words appear on a screen in the background on the same page.
Quote from: The Corinthian on 25 October, 2017, 05:57:47 PM
I'm afraid the SPOILER in Indigo Prime has just contributed to my sense that it's the work of a man wearing a rubber John Smith mask rather than someone who's completely sympathetic to the series and can make it work in his own style.
You pick up a series mid-run, it makes sense to find a transitional style between what has gone before and your own. Writers do it, artists do it, and sometimes fans are rude little pricks about it.
Simply brilliant, and a very nice little surprise, to see Mick McMahon return to do a Cursed Earth based Dredd tale. :thumbsup:
(Not had chance to read the rest yet...)
Quote from: The Corinthian on 25 October, 2017, 05:57:47 PM
I'm afraid the SPOILER in Indigo Prime has just contributed to my sense that it's the work of a man wearing a rubber John Smith mask rather than someone who's completely sympathetic to the series and can make it work in his own style. Even if this was exactly where Smith was planning to go, I imagine he'd do it in a much subtler and stranger tone.
Damn right. It had my blessings. Now it has my curses. Loved it up to that stupid "twist". Of course, Tharg owns everything. But do you have to monster-mashup every story I've ever written under the same roof? It's incredibly lame and screams of "product on shelf". Just coz DC do it...
Mmmm, I had wondered. While I normally love everything Nigel writes, and think he was doing a pretty good job keeping the IP ball rolling in appropriate style, that last panel may be the biggest clanger I've seen in 2000AD in... I dunno, I'm struggling to think of a worse one in recent years. I don't know Tharg's thinking here, but it's lost me completely. What's on the menu for next week, Karkossa and Larsen? Danny Redman turns out to be Shane Holt?
Think I need to bathe my brain in that McMahon Dredd again for a bit.
You do work for hire, sometimes it's taken out of your hands. Anyone think I wouldn't have written Daemonifuge books two and three if I'd been asked?
You sign the contract, you cash the cheque, you know the deal.
FWIW, I think there are a nebulous threads running through the Smithyverse that mean I have no problem with the current episode's reveal. Would I rather the notion had originated with John? Yes. Absolutely.
As a reader, though, absent any story-external knowledge...? I found it rather thrilling to be surprised like this. Nigel/Kek has taken a poison chalice here, and I think he's making a decent fist of it, TBH.
I've nothing at all against Kek-W, his presence in the prog has been like a fresh breeze in a classic 2000AD style these psst few years, and he should write whatever suits. While I was very poorly disposed to the idea of non-Smith Indigo Prime, there's no denying that Nigel was making a characteristically good job with what Jim correctly calls a poisoned chalice (see also: "an ongoing Dark Judges prequel", the strip nobody thought they wanted).
But this reveal is a misstep, a completely at odds with this particular reader's idea of how these things should work. Let me tell you, if it had been Ritterstahl coming to save the day I'd have been out of my chair cheering.
Arthur Wyatt's Samizdat Squad ret-conned The Inspectre out of Dredd continuity, removing a tiny contribution I made to a small corner of the history of one the most important fictional characters in my life. As I observed at the time, that was entirely my fault for failing to write anything Tharg wanted to publish in the years between those two strips.
And I wasn't even getting asked to write more stories.
Is there something applicable in that anecdote...? You be the judge.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 25 October, 2017, 11:23:56 PM
Arthur Wyatt's Samizdat Squad ret-conned The Inspectre out of Dredd continuity, removing a tiny contribution I made to a small corner of the history of one the most important fictional characters in my life.
Don't worry, Robin Low is working on it.
I really enjoyed this week's prog. Dredd was great, SinDex was really funny, Absolom was entertaining. I'm struggling a bit with Slaine as I just don't think the art suits the story.
As for Indigo Prime, I thought it was an enjoyable episode and I don't think the Revere reveal is a big deal to be honest. I can barely remember anything about Revere as I didn't understand it. I'm a little bemused as to all the fuss to be honest - if you'd have asked me if Revere was in IP continuity last week I'd have shrugged my shoulders. I doubt I'm the only one.
The point about Revere (a strip I never really got, BTW) is that he's another John Smith character, not that he is or isn't an Indigo Prime character. It makes about as much sense as the Balls Brothers showing up in Buttonman V, written by Guy Adams. I understand that all we've had is a single panel, and that contrary to my stereotypically Comic Book Guy reaction Kek-W may go on to do something truly amazing with the character. The problem I personally gave is that it looks (looks, mind, I'm not implying intent) like Tharg is taking the opportunity to build a John Smith Metaverse without John Smith, and from my perspective that is a poor decision. I can understand the need to pick up the threads of two popular unfinished stories (DW and IP) if John can't, but why drag a third series in, in the process retrospectively changing its nature?
Lest I sink in a mire of fanboy negativity of my own making, I should say that everything else this week found favour in my holier-than-though eyes.
Lovely, lovely Dredd, spectacular Slaine, solid Absolom, perfect Sin Dex. Nobody but John Charles should colour Yeowell, ever.
"Thou".
The other thing about it for me is, it has virtually no credibility to pluck a character from years / decades ago and suddenly say they were part of something else when there had been no suggestion of that before. It could only work if the original writer had had that in mind all along and had planned it out.
But it doesn't sound like that's the case here at all.
I'm not sure I agree with this.
I can't remember much about Revere so I may have the wrong end of the stick but why assume Revere wasn't just recruited into IP after the events in his own strip? Is it necessary to believe that he was part of IP all along? Danny Redman wasn't aware of IP throughout Dead Eyes after all.
As IP is a strip all about crossing realities it makes some sense that characters from other stories or universes could turn up.
It's certainly regrettable that this has been done without John Smith's blessing but it doesn't affect the quality of the story as written.
Yes I did think if that but it would mean that Revere's world was part of the IP multi-verse. Unless we are now saying all universes are part of the IP universe - which would be even worse.
Dead Eyes is different - that was revealed at the end of the original strip, not 20 or 30 years later.
Quote from: TordelBack on 26 October, 2017, 07:29:39 AM
Nobody but John Charles should colour Yeowell, ever.
What, not Gina Hart?
Quote from: Magnetica on 26 October, 2017, 08:26:57 AM
Yes I did think if that but it would mean that Revere's world was part of the IP multi-verse. Unless we are now saying all universes are part of the IP universe - which would be even worse.
Dead Eyes is different - that was revealed at the end of the original strip, not 20 or 30 years later.
I'm fairly happy to assume that all universes are potentially part of the IP multiverse. If our own universe is included (I'm guessing it's supposed to be on the evidence of William Burroughs, Jack the Ripper etc) then I'm happy for other 2000AD universes to (potentially) be included as long as the stories are good.
For me it's about the original intent of the writer. Did they intend two stories to be linked, or is it just being tacked on years later? (By someone else in this case).
I have no problem with Revere being set in the IP universe if that is what John Smith had intended from the start. But he didn't.
I don't want a 2000AD multi-verse where every single story is potentially linked, just requiring a D Jump. As Tordel's says you can then get the Balls Brothers showing up in Buttonman, or indeed any character you like in any story. Not a good thing in my opinion.
I can just about tolerate this sort of thing in one-offs in anniversary Progs (or annuals in years gone by), where they are clearly just a bit of fun, but not as a regular thing.
And how would that relate to the Omnihedron? It just makes no sense.
And really that's the thing for me, I want the strips to have a sense of what they are and where they are going, at the very least driven by a strong sense (in the writer's mind) of who the characters are and how they might act and how they might evolve. Doesn't mean that can't naturally evolve over time (e.g. Dredd).
Quote from: JamesC on 26 October, 2017, 08:20:21 AM
I can't remember much about Revere so I may have the wrong end of the stick but why assume Revere wasn't just recruited into IP after the events in his own strip?
'Revere' ends with humanity - including the central character and the world itself - absorbed into a primal gestalt male-female yin-yang entity (which, if you like, can be seen as analogous to Revere and his lost love, Chloe McKiernan.) The cosmic entity then contemplates the possibility of starting existence over again and decides to do so. It is the most perfect ending to any 2000AD story, and is, in my opinion, best left untouched. Obviously I have no knowledge of how the current Indigo Prime series will deploy the character, but it's hard not to have concerns.
I share most of the concerns, but don't ascribe any cynical motives - surely this is just the exuberance of an enthusiatic writer being handed the 'Smithverse' toybox with both Tharg's and Smith's blessing and gleefully running riot?
To be honest, unless it had been spelt out on this thread, I don't think I would of made the connection with it being Revere from that strip a long time ago.
From what I remember, wasn't he a skinny dude with darker skin than the one we see in the latest Prog?
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 26 October, 2017, 10:05:44 AM
I share most of the concerns, but don't ascribe any cynical motives - surely this is just the exuberance of an enthusiatic writer being handed the 'Smithverse' toybox with both Tharg's and Smith's blessing and gleefully running riot?
It does come across like that. Personally, I always had a fondness for Revere. It was weird and interesting, and another of those strips that kept me reading 2000 AD though its dark days. I was really hoping it and some other Smith work would be compiled in the 2000 AD collection. And it ended well, too. Bringing Revere back seems oddly in-jokey. It'd be a bit like if agent Larsen showed up on the back of a 'dragon'.
Perhaps it's an attempt to echo the Dead Eyes switch. Regardless, I've enjoyed what Kek-W managed up until that single frame, and so am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until the series is over.
Still no prog in Smiths this week. Two days overdue now. Starting to suffer thrill-power deprivation. Fortunately I got the Insurrection TPB for my birthday recently, it's tiding me over but I need new thrills soon
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 26 October, 2017, 10:05:44 AM...the 'Smithverse' toybox...
What Smithverse? The Devlin/Pussyfoot/Inspector Strange stuff, that's Dreddverse spinoff. Firekind, Cradlegrave (his best stuff), Slaughter Bowl and Love Like Blood are all their own thing,
as is Revere, although for some reason I see Tyranny & Leatherjack as being set in the same world. Reuse of Mr Cheetl aside, there aren't many other links to pull on.
What you're talking about is taking all (or less hyperbolic,
some) of one writer's independent creations and treating them as part of a shared continuity, rather than a shared output (hence my crack about Balls Brothers and Buttonman). This is okay in stuff like Ace Trucking or Sinister Dexter, light hearted silliness at their core, but with IP and Revere, a large part of the appeal of both stories was slowly exploring the actual nature of the reality they depict, something that presumably existed in some fluid way in John's head - retrospectively changing that reality by mashing them up affects the (my) enjoyment of those stories.
For me this sort of thing changes the tenor of the original stories, which I will personally deal with by pretending the later connections were never drawn, making it hard for me to enjoy the current stories. And while I know it's probably a sincere attempt to get great characters back in the Prog, I just can't help the feeling, and I'm sure it's irrational, that it comes across as
targeted.
i err liked it
Quote from: The Monarch on 26 October, 2017, 01:39:52 PM
i err liked it
David's just hoping Kek-W merges Canon Fodder in next, amirite?
Ironically it's the W.H. Smithverse that's causing me problems this week.
:lol:
I really can't see what all this fuss is about. Indigo Prime has already established that there are innumerable parallel universes, and dead people from any of them can be recruited into Indigo Prime. What's the problem?
Sure, but why Revere? Why not Fludd, or Bec and Caul, or Wolfie Smith, or Nick Stone? Why an unconnected John Smith character? Why not any other psychic/dimension hopping charcater from Tharg's limbo drawer? That's the problem for me anyway.
I doubt it. If Kek-W had used any of those characters, I expect you'd be saying the same things you're saying about Revere. Why shouldn't it be Revere, just because he hasn't been in Indigo Prime before? Anyone can be in Indigo Prime (for the reason I have in my last post).
John Smith doesn't approve. That's fine, they're his characters, but he's not writing it. That's not his fault, but it's still someone else's responsibility now.
Why has Kek-W done this? Remember how Dead Eyes ended, when we didn't know it was an Indigo Prime story until the last page, when Winwood and Cord turned up -- two characters who hadn't been in the prog for about 20 years? We all got very excited about that, and we came on this messageboard and enthused about how brilliant it was. I suspect (it's just a theory) that Kek-W was trying in good faith to recreate that sort of moment, using another highly-regarded John Smith character. I don't blame him for trying. Maybe it isn't what John Smith would have done, but he isn't writing it.
I think it's a storm in a teacup. Let's just see what happens in the next episodes and see where it goes. Kek-W isn't going to treat these characters in anything less than a totally respectful manner.
(And "poisoned chalice" is right. There's no pleasing some people.)
If you can't see the difference between John Smith using Winwood and Cord in an apparent one-off for a cool twist leading into a new era of IP, and Kek-W introducing Revere in a long running series for the same effect, I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye on this. But look, I'll probably be eating my words in a couple of weeks - just right now I think it sets a poor precedent.
And I am all-too easily pleased as it happens, just ask my missus.
I'm with Tordel Block on this. Winwood and Cord turning up in Dead Eyes is completely different. They had always been in Indigo Prime. That twist was establishing Dead Eyes as part of the IP multi-verse which was completely legitimate as it was done as part of the complete Dead Eyes story. It wasn't something that was revisited years later. Which is what Revere turning up this week is.
John Smith clearly intended that reveal that in Dead Eyes.
Before the posts in this thread actually started to name 'Revere' as the character who showed up at the end of this weeks instalment, I was, for some reason, under the impression that 'John Smith' himself had been revealed as an IP agent in this weeks cliff hanger.
Which would have been interesting...
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 26 October, 2017, 06:55:54 PM
Which would have been interesting...
See
that would have been cool. The writer becoming a character in the strip when another writer takes over*... has that ever been done?
*As opposed to the overused 'writer appears in his own story'.
Well, unlike you wonderful-but-cynical, cynical people, I punched the air. And I bet part six of the story is going to be great.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 26 October, 2017, 07:17:27 PM
Well, unlike you wonderful-but-cynical, cynical people, I punched the air. And I bet part six of the story is going to be great.
Good on you Goggans, I knew you'd like it!
Quote from: Richard on 26 October, 2017, 05:56:24 PMLet's just see what happens in the next episodes and see where it goes. Kek-W isn't going to treat these characters in anything less than a totally respectful manner.
Yes to all of this.
QuoteThe writer becoming a character in the strip when another writer takes over... has that ever been done?
Sort of. In the original Prog 2000, Alan Grant wrote a Judge Dredd episode in which John Wagner appears.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 26 October, 2017, 08:08:27 PM
Quote from: Richard on 26 October, 2017, 05:56:24 PMLet's just see what happens in the next episodes and see where it goes. Kek-W isn't going to treat these characters in anything less than a totally respectful manner.
Yes to all of this.
My heart stopped for a second when the Mighty Mr Smith voiced his disapproval, but I can't help but enjoy it as a reader. and not only do I agree with the above, I'm also looking forward to finding out how this all works out... if it all goes wrong I'll beg forgiveness later.
I'll add to the gentle trickle of positivity by saying that I'm loving Indigo Prime at the moment. It's very much my favourite thing in the Prog right now, which is quite a feat given how strong the current line-up is.
(I will add that although I'm well aware of Revere, I've never read any of the original strips, so perhaps I was never going to feel any sense of disappointment over his inclusion.)
Quote from: Richard on 26 October, 2017, 08:16:47 PM
QuoteThe writer becoming a character in the strip when another writer takes over... has that ever been done?
Sort of. In the original Prog 2000, Alan Grant wrote a Judge Dredd episode in which John Wagner appears.
Hah, of course, the bath! In my head it was Wagner who wrote that one, but there you go.
Look, I admire all the positivity here, and I wish I could share it: Indigo Prime has been one of my favourite things since the very first sort-of episode, and I've loved it all: yes even Almaranda. I really hate to be the Nadia or Sc*j* of this topic, sitting in judgement on the writer and holding forth on what he should or should not have done. However, from a purely personal perspective this crossover feels completely wrong to me, both within the strip and its real world context, and worse, it feels like the early stages of an unwelcome trend.
But we've only had one panel of Revere, and if anyone can make a good story out of a dodgy premise, it's Kek-W, and when he does I'll be happy to recant and beg for Tharg's forgiveness. Either way I'll shut up before I end up immortalised in tiny font in an imminent Damage Report.
I seem to be out of sync with most this week, because the prog didn't put a foot wrong. And I jumped off my seat when Revere turned up. I bloody love Revere, and the original story is among my favouritest 2000AD things ever. I'm not going to comment on John Smith's disapproval, because I really like him as both a person and a writer, but the return of this character made my week.
Everything else was wonderful- MickMack on Dredd, lovely Slaine, a fantastic SiniDex and another exceptional episode of Absalom. All wrapped up in the best cover this year.
Loved everything about it. Roll on next Wednesday.
SBT
QuoteDavid's just hoping Kek-W merges Canon Fodder in next, amirite?
you know me too well :P
seriously though i thought it was fantastic
OFFS. Told today by the chap in Smiths that they have stopped stocking 2000 AD in this branch. They get four copies a week and usually sell two (so there's another 2000 AD reader on campus... hmm, I'll have to start watching people carefully...)
I told him that it was only because they started putting on the shelf a year or so ago that I started buying it again. He said he'd have a word with the divisional office and try to get it back on order.
He also said that although it's a campus branch, head office sent them a box load of kids' titles each week, none of which are ever sold.
Sorry, perhaps there should be a thread dedicated to W.H. Smith rants
Well I'm glad I skip IP :D
and Sin/Dex and just admire the art in Slaine without trying to follow any off them... LaLaLalalala!
Dredd was an absolute joy to the eye, mind and heart, as was Absalom, and no-one's even mentioned the letters page...fire up The Beast Butt'man there work tae be done!
off? FFS... ::)
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9059659/IMG_1125.PNG)
Hardly comparable, Bats attended this Dream's predecessor's funeral. Unless i'm mistaken his mother was in the JSA.
I'm talking again. Must... stop...
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 October, 2017, 05:43:32 PM
Hardly comparable ...
I was thinking more in terms of the instinctive reaction to the image. Maybe some people thought
'oh great, this will be a fantastic story.
I'm didn't think I was a fan of McMahon's latest style but a load of commissions and this have totally won me over.
Indigo Prime crossover? I'm easy. The only thing I didn't like was the clunky basil introduction "Agents... reporting for duty!". That stuck out a bit. But I can remember naff all about the strip in question and doubt I would have actually made the connection without the fuss.
I right enjoyed that Prog.
3 crackers, 2 duds this time for me.
Slaine and IP still leave me cold, Simon Davis' beautiful art can't work magic with this script. Flipped the tablet to landscape to correctly read the double-page spread but... it seemed designed to slow things yet further? American Reaper springs to mind.
Meanwhile, the prog did work overall. Inspiring McMahon with wonderful colouring, knockabout S & D (best Yeowell art for a while, it comes and goes to my untutored eye) and pick of the prog, Absalom is fantastic -- best cover in ages to boot.
Finally got the prog, ironically from another branch of W.H. Smiths.
Cover: It's funny - since I mentioned the other week that the best covers are those drawn by the story's regular artist, the best covers have been those drawn by the story's regular artist. And the sympathetic typeface helps immensely.
Dredd: I wonder... if Mick McMahon hadn't spent the first few years of his career drawing Dredd strips, and in fact had never drawn Dredd at all, instead making his name with a bunch of other characters... would he, with his highly distinctive and caricatured style, be subject to the same kind of derogatory comments aimed at Simon Roy last week?
I wonder.
Good to have you back, Mr McMahon.
IP: I wasn't around for 'Revere' so the controversy over his return kind of goes over my head. I suppose I can see why, if it was a complete series with a proper conclusion, bringing him back might look a bit awkward. And yeah, perhaps it's a bit presumptive to think that just because a character is conceived by the same writer, that character forms part of an interchangeable 'universe'. Still, it has to be a compliment to the quality of the character that the current writer considers it deserving of another outing, no?
Slaine: Fighty.
SinDex: Maybe just strays slightly too far into jokey territory but it's funny jokey territory and there's nothing wrong with a bit of knockabout fun so, you know, what's not to like?
Absalom: Just nicks Top Thrill this week, for the prog's best combination of quality script and art.
Since Indigo Prime is about the entire multiverse, the interchangeable universe point falls away.
SinDex has always been a comedy strip. It occasionally strays into serious territory from time to time.
Of course, Rick and Morty can turn up in ANY strip.
Rick and Morty should turn up in EVERY strip. And be retconned into all reprints of old strips that don't already have them.
I only buy the prog when Slaine is in it. Great treat though when checking some of the other stories last night to see McMahon's Dredd strip. Loved it almost as much as Simon Roy's in the pile I read (thoroughly recommend Simon Roy's Prophet and Habitat work). More McMahon please (on Slaine ;)).
Quote from: Davek on 09 November, 2017, 10:25:14 AM
I only buy the prog when Slaine is in it.
You are Thyrllseeker and I claim my five pounds.
Quote from: norton canes on 27 October, 2017, 09:55:01 AM
Sorry, perhaps there should be a thread dedicated to W.H. Smith rants
we've had a couple:
on poor placement and display:
https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=37557.0 (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=37557.0)
on weird age restrictions:
https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=43123.0 (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=43123.0)
Quote from: Magnetica on 26 October, 2017, 09:31:43 AM
For me it's about the original intent of the writer. Did they intend two stories to be linked, or is it just being tacked on years later? (By someone else in this case).
I have no problem with Revere being set in the IP universe if that is what John Smith had intended from the start. But he didn't.
I don't want a 2000AD multi-verse where every single story is potentially linked, just requiring a D Jump. As Tordel's says you can then get the Balls Brothers showing up in Buttonman, or indeed any character you like in any story. Not a good thing in my opinion.
I can just about tolerate this sort of thing in one-offs in anniversary Progs (or annuals in years gone by), where they are clearly just a bit of fun, but not as a regular thing.
And how would that relate to the Omnihedron? It just makes no sense.
And really that's the thing for me, I want the strips to have a sense of what they are and where they are going, at the very least driven by a strong sense (in the writer's mind) of who the characters are and how they might act and how they might evolve. Doesn't mean that can't naturally evolve over time (e.g. Dredd).
I loved Revere, and liked the recent Indigo Prime story, but thought the appearance of the one in the other fitted in as much as Halo appearing in Helter Skelter...