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Judge Dredd: The Mega Collection discussion thread

Started by Molch-R, 10 December, 2014, 03:30:20 PM

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IndigoPrime

Quote from: glassstanley on 23 May, 2017, 08:06:56 PMI agree with the VFM comment. I just can't agree that the repro on those 6 pages stands up well. As you say, it's the same files as the Case Files. Is there a budget for it? It's 6 pages. A few minutes work.
Other people have kind of covered this, notably glassstanley, but it bears repeating that scanning for professional printing is a world away from just whacking a book under your consumer-level scanner and grabbing some JPEGs. First, where are you scanning from? If you have the original art, then that's certainly a lot more than a few minutes of work each, and it's likely if the art is old you're going to need to make all kinds of fixes for it to be suitable for printing.

If you're scanning from another printed format, you have different problems. Was the original scan good in the first place? What's the print quality (and physical quality) of the item? Will the print pattern cause moiré pattern effects when you go to print the scan in a new volume?

We often see delicate patterning work vanish in reprint because of a combination of these factors. Line-work may be sacrificed in order to boost contrast. Elsewhere, moiré is a huge problem if left untreated (see the original Devlin Waugh volume in the very early days of the Rebellion trades for a particularly eye-gouging example) – and even if you spend a lot of time dealing with it, you may still have noticeable patterning (such as in the new Like Kirby book).

In short, 'scanning' is really a fine art – a tough, thankless task that can take a very long time to get right, and even then often leaves you with sub-optimal results. I'm not surprised Rebellion's looking at an AI solution, but even then you're going to need someone to comb through the results manually and make changes here and there. (I'm sure anyone who's tried a Photoshop actions set to improve scans and seen the results will know the job Rebellion has here.)

Quote from: Max HeadroomIs it possible to scan from old Progs if they are in very good condition? Or does the paper quality make it too difficult?
Possible: yes. Desirable? No. Older progs in particular have fairly awful print quality, and there's a tendency for content to 'bleed' through the pages, which then needs cleaning up (or you can ramp up the contrast to get rid of muted and light greys, but then run the risk of wrecking line-work and letraset backgrounds). This is undoubtedly one reason why quite a lot of reprint comes from scans of Titan trades, which had thicker paper. However, in some cases, it's like copying a tape recording of a tape recording. Each time, you're a step further from an original source.

Ultimately, without the original art, a lot of time, and a pile of money, you have little choice. (And with the Mega Collection volumes, they're clearly being done on a relative shoestring, and so there's probably not the budget to do too much extra in terms of scanning. Even the editing is on occasion a little skimmed over, such as the Corey strip's DPS not actually running over a DPS, rendering one of the most important moments in Anderson's history largely incomprehensible unless you flip back and forth like a loon.)

Davgardo

Well, I wasn't expecting good repro on The Return of Rico and I didn't get it. The time and place for that would've been the 10 year anniversary of Case Files 1: it should have been done for that release. For a 'prestige' collector release such as that and for such a key story it was a bit of a pee take tbh.

So I wasn't expecting it for the Mega Collection.

However, for those saying scanning is a fine art I don't doubt it. But the artwork is hard to get hold of? Scan 40 year old progs? Just stick my 1982 Titan Judge Dredd 2 under a photocopier and you'll get an infinitely better repro than the muddy rubbish that's been served up in various releases over the last 20 years.

It's not down to time or expense or will, it's down to: we can't be bothered, this'll do. Full stop.

sheridan

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 24 May, 2017, 10:16:52 AM
Even the editing is on occasion a little skimmed over, such as the Corey strip's DPS not actually running over a DPS, rendering one of the most important moments in Anderson's history largely incomprehensible unless you flip back and forth like a loon.)

Deposit Protection Scheme, Department of Public Safety, Diplomatic Protection Squad, Directorate of Professional Standards, Degrees Per Second?

sheridan

Quote from: Davgardo on 24 May, 2017, 10:38:40 AM
It's not down to time or expense or will, it's down to: we can't be bothered, this'll do. Full stop.

As Indigoprime says, repro is a thankless task - I don't know why she left, but I'm impressed Katscan stayed for so long.

Davgardo

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 24 May, 2017, 10:16:52 AM
Quote from: glassstanley on 23 May, 2017, 08:06:56 PMOlder progs in particular have fairly awful print quality, and there's a tendency for content to 'bleed' through the pages, which then needs cleaning up (or you can ramp up the contrast to get rid of muted and light greys, but then run the risk of wrecking line-work and letraset backgrounds). This is undoubtedly one reason why quite a lot of reprint comes from scans of Titan trades, which had thicker paper. However, in some cases, it's like copying a tape recording of a tape recording. Each time, you're a step further from an original source.


Sorry I just don't get that.
The original Titan volumes were faultless - if you have those why is each release a tape recording of a tape recording, each time a step further from the original. If you keep a 1st generation copy (i.e. the Titans) you're always copying from a 1st generation copy. Surely?

IndigoPrime

Quote from: Davgardo on 24 May, 2017, 10:38:40 AMHowever, for those saying scanning is a fine art I don't doubt it. But the artwork is hard to get hold of?
Original art has often been lost, sold, given away or damaged.

QuoteScan 40 year old progs?
See my points on moiré, bleed-through, damage and so on.

QuoteJust stick my 1982 Titan Judge Dredd 2 under a photocopier and you'll get an infinitely better repro than the muddy rubbish that's been served up in various releases over the last 20 years.
Again, moiré, clean-up, etc.

QuoteIt's not down to time or expense or will, it's down to: we can't be bothered, this'll do. Full stop.
It's in part down to practicality and also pragmatism. Rebellion isn't a charity, and so there needs to be a balancing act in terms of the quality of existing digitally stored artwork and the profitability of a product. That might grate, but if all these books suddenly become loss-making, the entire imprint is gone.

Arguably, there are occasions where repro should be replaced in the archives (much of which has been flagged up in the MC, given that it's more noticeable now these stories aren't being printed in those phone book volumes with crap paper), and there's only been one occasion I can think of where the retro has been bad enough that the book should arguably have been pulped. (That Devlin Waugh volume – although one of the Kingdom books also has awful printing, which is odd given that the series was digital.) Mostly, though, I think we get an acceptable trade-off in the books we get.

IndigoPrime

Quote from: Davgardo on 24 May, 2017, 10:51:25 AMThe original Titan volumes were faultless - if you have those why is each release a tape recording of a tape recording, each time a step further from the original. If you keep a 1st generation copy (i.e. the Titans) you're always copying from a 1st generation copy. Surely?
You're not copying from original art – you're copying from a printed volume, with specific dot pitch, issues of its own (regarding contrast and also direct edits to the pages), and so on. Beyond that, you're also reliant on the actual product itself being in good shape, without yellowed pages, and being a pristine print in and of itself (which is not guaranteed). Oh, and there's the bleed-through point I already mentioned.

IF Rebellion can source perfect books from that era, there's still work to be done from any scans, and you still run the risk of moiré and other problems. It's not as simple as slapping a book under a scanner and instantly improving your digital archive.

Note, I do agree some pages in the archive should be replaced; my responses here are to note this isn't as simple and straightforward as some people suppose.

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 24 May, 2017, 10:16:52 AM
Ultimately, without the original art, a lot of time, and a pile of money, you have little choice.

I can't imagine scanning from the originals is actually desirable for any strip from the days when the lettering was physically applied to the page. The inks change colour dramatically and, in a lot of the examples I've seen, the actual adhesive paper the balloons were made from is practically transparent. In other cases, the lettering has become detached and is missing entirely. I've even seen pages where they've acquired balloons from other pages where they've been kept in a stack.

The only solution I can think of would be to scan the art from originals and then overlay the lettering from existing scans/files/films which would be horrifically time-consuming, given that you'd have to separate out the lettering from the art on the scans you want to use.
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TordelBack

Hmmm, could it be all the people describing the technical challenges and cost implications are correct, or could it be that Rebellion are just lazy and/or careless/don't have a Currys A4 scanner in their bedrooms? If only Rebellion had some sort of track record of outstanding quality and commercial sense to help us decide between these two equally valid opinions..

SuperSurfer

Quote from: glassstanley on 23 May, 2017, 08:06:56 PM
Rescan everything? Only the worst offenders.
Yes, I meant rescan all the pages described as worst offenders. But how many of these are there? Eg those Bolland pages where areas of Letratone (that's Zip-a-Tone for anyone tuning in from the US) have filled in resulting in solid black areas in reprints.

As 2000AD was originally produced using different technology, different materials; a lack of clean, unfaded, undamaged original artwork means that reprints today will be a compromise in one way or another.

Rebellion might have plenty of films, but even that isn't ideal. Films originally existed as part of the process for making printing plates. Nowadays those films will have to be scanned and resized. So a reprint today, even if original Titan reprint films were used would not in my opinion even match the Titan reprint for quality. (A year or so ago I came across a Nemesis Titan volume in a charity shop and I regret not buying it. The detail was phenomenal.)

And just because there might have been the budget to use new scans for a Case Files volume, it doesn't follow that there is budget to do so for a Mega Collection volume.

glassstanley

#3190
Actually, I'd be interested in seeing where along the chain the quality of these files dropped so dramatically. The Bolland Dredds/Return of Rico were all reprinted fine by Titan & in The Complete Judge Dredd. I *think* the issues arose during the period when DC were working with Rebellion on the graphic novels. Looking back at Slaine - Ace Trucking/Meltdown Man & Mean Team are pretty much fine reproductions of Belardinelli art for the Rebellion reprints. The b&w Slaine's aren't. I *think* the initial volume of Warriors' Dawn was one of the DC volumes.

For me, Slaine is a much more interesting strip than any of the other Belardinelli's, so it's frustrating that these strips are the poorest in reproduction terms *. McMahon's work in Warrior's Dawn is also poorly reproduced. Warrior's Dawn (the strip, not the volume) has even had a caption replaced so poor was the image used (see if you can spot it!)

As so many people have said, there are sound commercial reasons why Rebellion aren't upgrading their digital archive. There are also many limitations on scanning from old comics/Best of  reprints/Titan GNs. However, if a muppet like me can make a better image than the one I've bought (several times over in some cases), then I'm a frustrated customer.

And there are *so* many wonderful Rebellion GNs out there that don't have this problem.

(Out of interest, does anyone have the IDW Bolland collection? Does that use the same files? I would certainly object to having paid for the special edition of that if it did)

* - For some reason, the digital version of Warrior's Dawn has been edited further than the Rebellion GN. The page with the first warp spasm has had all but one of the frames removed!

Tjm86

Quote from: glassstanley on 24 May, 2017, 04:31:45 PM

(Out of interest, does anyone have the IDW Bolland collection? Does that use the same files? I would certainly object to having paid for the special edition of that if it did)


A quick squizz at the Father Earth pages shows that it has the same problem as the Mega Collection.  The Robots talking are just a black blur there too!

The Amstor Computer

Putting my tuppence in  :)

Having done this for years on an amateur basis for Hibernia, I'm hugely impressed by what Rebellion do under the twin pressures of cost & time.

My own workflow depends on where the scans come from. For scans of the comics I source myself, I tend to scan at huge resolutions, run a series of basic clean-up passes (for B&W art, this would tend to be a level adjustment, sharpening to clarify the linework, threshold adjustments etc.) and then resize down to a more reasonable resolution (this tends to change depending on how the previous project has gone, but I think the last one where I sourced myself I worked from 1200dpi scans and reduced to 600dpi). After that, I tend to do a manual clean-up of the reduced art - this can involve removing "scruff", bleedthrough, repairing damaged art/lettering by hand etc. - then output it as a finished file for print.

If my scans are good, the linework is strong (artists with light linework or densely-hatched shading etc. are a chore) and the original comics are clean and undamaged, I can get through pages reasonably quickly. If there are any problems, it slows right down, but in either case you're probably looking at a couple of hours a page doing it this way. It gives good results - maybe not the very best, but I hope as close to as possible - but it's not something I'd see as being viable for an operation like Rebellion who have to churn through huge amounts of material.

It would be possible to process quicker using a more aggressive level/threshold/etc. pass, but even with good scans you run the risk of filling in hatching, losing fine lines, and doing other damage this way. Move to colour scans - or greyscale stuff like House of Daemon - and it becomes even more complicated in some ways (moire is a bane, though tricks like scanning at high resolutions and reducing, or rotating the scans on the scanner, can mitigate some of that).

Rebellion's archive isn't faultless - there have been some really dreadful pages in the Mega Collection, which is a shame - but given that they might not have access to everything Titan et al did, and the amount of work involved in preparing pages scanned from printed comics and the fact that they have to make all this commercially viable so likely can't justify hours of clean-up per page, they get an awful lot right.

Apestrife

Having just finished Cursed Earth Carnage, I must say I quite enjoyed Helltrekkers. Really liked the way it was drawn, as well as having some very fun moments involving rad dessert t rexes stomping people and desecrating graves in order to get a snack. A bit like Mad Max mixed with some old cowboy soap opera.

Skipped most of the second story, and hurried through Sleeze and Ryder. Mostly out of curiosity. Fun to look at the art, but perhaps not the strongest story. Not even president Arnold Schwarzenegger's brain in a jar akimbo machine guns could make up for it.

While the last half wasn't entirely to my liking, still liked the volume. I'm going to read up on some Missionary man soon to get a bit more cursed earth before the third last book of Tour of duty is released :)

Apestrife

#3194
Anyone else who has figured out any particular reading orders?

I made this one up today. Essentially my "Essential Dredd", divided as golden, silver and modern age (for lack of better ways of putting it).
Another read I'm planning is of course the MC1 undercover stuff, Simping detective and Trifecta.

Golden
Cursed Earth : Day the law died : Judge Child Quest : Mean Machine : Judge Death lives! :  Apocalypse war : City of the damned
--Essentially sets the stage, and while at it throwing in some villains and insane time travel stuff. I'm hoping Judge Child will include Destiny's Angels, and City of the damned A question of judgement.

Silver
OZ : Chopper : Necropolis : The dead man : Democracy Now! : Total War : America : Brothers of the blood
--Introduces politics while intertwining it with Dredd's clone story. Democracy now! has the small pieces, Total War is the big one and America has Dredd taking Ami in and then fittingly ending with a story on how Dredd chooses duty over Vienna. Their relationship is then explored in Brothers of the blood: Which very fittingly end with the 50 year man.

Modern
Origins : Life and times of PJ Maybe : Tour of duty Mutants in Mega-City One/Backlash/Mega-City Justice Justice : Day of Chaos The Fourth Faction/Endgame : Dark Justice (hoping the 2000ad collection's book comes with a bunch of additional Wagner Post DoC stories, or a MC collection of such stories.)
--Origins ending with The spirit of christmas I think sets the stages for introducing PJ Maybe and his climb to becoming a major, which then continues through the rest of ToD, DoC and DJ. 

I'm really hoping Block Judge, Terror Rising and/or Lady Killer ends up in the collection (or the 2000ad one), essentially making for a nice ending to my favorite line of Dredd stories: with Lady killer's "case closed" and Ami joining the big 5 :)