I'm referring to the Disney era of Star Wars in particular. Although 1-3 could also fall under this category.
I was reading this (old) article on Star Wars merchandising (https://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2015/12/16/how-disneys-star-wars-merchandise-is-set-to-make-billions/#1b051c1e7314 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2015/12/16/how-disneys-star-wars-merchandise-is-set-to-make-billions/#1b051c1e7314)) which helped to affirm my belief that the modern day Star Wars films are a vehicle for selling toys/clothes/theme park tickets. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I can't help imagine that the new films would be so much better without having these things influence the production of the film.
I know this is nothing new, just another reason for why perhaps the new films don't seem as good as the old ones.
(yes I know I seem to have a thing for moaning about how much better things were in the olden days, no need to point that out to me)
It probably doesn't help that the new films aren't very good objectively.
"--but I like the characters/seeing old characters/and the Falcon" is not really a glowing recommendation for a film that recreates elements from elsewhere in the same manner as one of those Scary Movie-type comedies that go "this is a thing that you recognise" for 90 minutes, only those at least have the virtue of being motivated by a known business model rather than creative bankruptcy, even if they are arguably just as compromised by the demands of commodified nostalgia and witless populism as the new SW movies.
Some of Rebels is good, though.
Think I'll stay out of this debate......my blood pressure has suffered enough on the Dredd TV show thread. I'll just put my opinion forward as "I like ALL of the star wars films with the exception of Rogue One. And i write that as an original star fanboy who was there in the cinema when it all started".
Long before Star Wars was an idea, the young George Lucas thought of himself as a toymaker who makes films (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q89AsB283lM&t=2m35s).
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 20 May, 2017, 03:27:01 PM
Long before Star Wars was an idea, the young George Lucas thought of himself as a toymaker who makes films (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q89AsB283lM&t=2m35s).
And yet that compulsion to make new toys also meant that he pushed into new territory by necessity, rather than just recolouring Tie Fighter and X-Wing models and having them shoot it out against the backdrop of yet another Death Star.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 20 May, 2017, 03:45:27 PMAnd yet that compulsion to make new toys also meant that he pushed into new territory by necessity,...
Yes, and George Lucas must be commended as a self-made man who got what he wanted – to be a financial success so he could attain the resources to make films by himself. After several years making films that pleased his more
avant garde tendency, Star Wars gave him that independence – so with his more abstract nature now firmly bonded to his newfound ability for commercialism and money-making, he didn't need to please anyone else, thus the
Prequels.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 20 May, 2017, 04:49:42 PM
Yes, and George Lucas must be commended as a self-made man who got what he wanted – to be a financial success so he could attain the resources to make films by himself.
Don't forget
Red Tails ::) ::)
I've seen them all since I was a 9 year old seeing the original in the cinema (no way I'm calling it The New Hope) and I find there is something to like/love in all of them.
Some more than others.
The last two, from Disney, are up there in terms of my delight for the first ever two.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 20 May, 2017, 04:49:42 PMhe didn't need to please anyone else, thus the Prequels.
I'm not sure the PT was Lucas getting away from his need to make cash - though he likely wasn't wanting for it at the time - so much as it was him doing what he usually does with Star Wars: blow it up every few years when interest is waning. I got the impression that whatever his feelings about the franchise, he certainly liked to work and oversee the company he built.
I'm a 'don't liker'. I don't like it now but did love it when I was a child. It is the opposite of 2000ad for me as I have found 2000ad a thrill to re-visit and have been happy to see how good the stuff today is and get my subscriptions going again.
When I last saw one of the Star Wars films I thought it was awful due to the dialogue, which I now think is pretty awful, and the changes that have been made. If it had stopped at Empire and the original films had never been edited then I think I would have a fonder view of it.
On the commercial angle, I think Star Wars was always about selling toys. George Lucas is a businessman first and a film maker second.
I suppose I should admit that I haven't actually seen several of them. I have seen the original trilogy of course and I think I have seen all the prequels but may not have seen the last prequel.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 20 May, 2017, 07:13:33 PM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 20 May, 2017, 04:49:42 PMhe didn't need to please anyone else, thus the Prequels.
I'm not sure the PT was Lucas getting away from his need to make cash - though he likely wasn't wanting for it at the time - so much as it was him doing what he usually does with Star Wars: blow it up every few years when interest is waning. I got the impression that whatever his feelings about the franchise, he certainly liked to work and oversee the company he built.
That's why I believe the Prequels were feeding all his and his company's needs of the time. Lucasfilm and Star Wars are inextricably bound – one has fed the other since their inception. It was Lucasfilm's fledgling R&D which allowed Star Wars to break ground; the success of which in turn funded the R&D for the digital FX, sound and video editing that emerged post-ROTJ (while also serving as the original home of PIXAR).
Jurassic Park and the Special Editions then gave Lucasfilm the boost in cash-confidence to dive into the Prequels while also giving Lucas an outlet for the type of film-making he was interested in – now free of the constraints he believes prevented him from making Star Wars the way he wanted.
I thought one of the main ways that George Lucas was able to achieve his independence from the studio system and continue with the Star Wars brand was that he held on to so many of the rights from the original film (such as toy rights).
Toys have therefore been inextricably linked with Star Wars from the very beginning. I had Star Wars figures before I had even seen any of the movies.
It also helped that Star Wars had so many classic designs that could be made in to figures or vehicles.
But toys were always the best part of Star Wars... OT or NT.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 20 May, 2017, 03:45:27 PM
And yet that compulsion to make new toys also meant that he pushed into new territory by necessity, rather than just recolouring Tie Fighter and X-Wing models and having them shoot it out against the backdrop of yet another Death Star.
I like The Force Awakens, and even the paint job the TIEs and X-wings got, but do recognise that they're lazy design. I'm not influenced at all by my favourite TIE being the Interceptor!
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 20 May, 2017, 04:49:42 PM
Yes, and George Lucas must be commended as a self-made man who got what he wanted – to be a financial success so he could attain the resources to make films by himself. After several years making films that pleased his more avant garde tendency, Star Wars gave him that independence – so with his more abstract nature now firmly bonded to his newfound ability for commercialism and money-making, he didn't need to please anyone else, thus the Prequels.
I love Howard the Duck!
Quote from: sheridan on 21 May, 2017, 02:05:53 AMI'm not influenced at all by my favourite TIE being the Interceptor!
Coming your way soon in The Last Jedi, by all accounts.
Like somebody said,probably better for my blood pressure if I keep out,but anyhow...Its just amazing how some people can be childish.Whenever the reboot is mentioned,you get the same response that it had to happen because it all sucked.Or it was never canon.Same stupid justifications every time.
Personally,give me Legacy(and Dark Horse in general) over TFA and Marvels crap any day of the week.
Some Disney CEO was bragging that they will be putting out 1 or 2 movie per year for the next century;so this shit train has no breaks.
Thesis: Star Wars Rebels is 80% shite. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvwNgtAR8cE)
Hard to argue with basically everything he says there, but I would take issue with constantly bringing it back to comparisons with Clone Wars, as despite some notable highs that show was wildly inconsistent.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 20 May, 2017, 08:18:11 PM
That's why I believe the Prequels were feeding all his and his company's needs of the time. Lucasfilm and Star Wars are inextricably bound – one has fed the other since their inception. It was Lucasfilm's fledgling R&D which allowed Star Wars to break ground; the success of which in turn funded the R&D for the digital FX, sound and video editing that emerged post-ROTJ (while also serving as the original home of PIXAR).
Jurassic Park and the Special Editions then gave Lucasfilm the boost in cash-confidence to dive into the Prequels while also giving Lucas an outlet for the type of film-making he was interested in – now free of the constraints he believes prevented him from making Star Wars the way he wanted.
Probably not relevant, but I seem to remember reading that Lucasfilm was involved in the special effects for Star Trek:TNG. Star Trek got a knock-down rate for keeping Lucasfilm busy between films/contracts.
I find Rebels really difficult to watch because of the ugly design and awful animation.
The animators are scared to have anyone stand still - whenever someone speaks their whole body bobs up and down and they sway around, gesticulate and make lots of facial expressions. I find it really off-putting.
I know this sounds like a silly criticism but it genuinely spoils the show for me.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 02 August, 2017, 12:53:21 AM
Thesis: Star Wars Rebels is 80% shite. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvwNgtAR8cE)
Hard to argue with basically everything he says there, but I would take issue with constantly bringing it back to comparisons with Clone Wars, as despite some notable highs that show was wildly inconsistent.
It does raise some good points.
I REALLY like Rebels, although I've only seen the first two series so far.
And there was me enjoying it as an engaging all-ages adventure about the survivors of the Clone Wars and the early years of the Rebellion made by a gang who clearly love what they do. What a fool! I shall commence despising it forthwith.
I think his contention was that the show isn't all-ages but child-oriented and tonally inconsistent - which is why I thought his constantly harking back to Clone Wars for his rebuttals was a mistake.
Quote from: JamesC on 02 August, 2017, 09:16:06 AMI find Rebels really difficult to watch because of the ugly design and awful animation.
I watched Clone Wars almost entirely in the gym, while the Space Witch stuff made me call it a day with the show and I missed a lot of the later seasons, but revisiting it now on a proper human-sized tv screen, some of the visuals they achieved were incredible. I've seen theatrically-released movies that weren't half as good-looking as season 6 episodes.
Quote from: TordelBack on 02 August, 2017, 06:02:24 PM
And there was me enjoying it as an engaging all-ages adventure about the survivors of the Clone Wars and the early years of the Rebellion made by a gang who clearly love what they do. What a fool! I shall commence despising it forthwith.
I've experienced more Star Wars nerd-joy over the better episodes of Clone Wars and most of three seasons of Rebels than anything that's been on in the cinema in a couple of decades. That's not to say I didn't like TFA, and I
really liked Rogue One, but the latter, in particular, pressed different buttons. Rebels has made me feel like I've been watching those Marvel UK Star Wars reprint titles between Empire and Jedi come to life -- that's been the very specific fanboy button that's been un-pressed for a lot of years.
Quote from: Mardroid on 02 August, 2017, 04:02:49 PM
I REALLY like Rebels, although I've only seen the first two series so far.
I love Rebels too - one of the best pieces of Star Wars story to come out for many years.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 02 August, 2017, 06:15:37 PM
I've seen theatrically-released movies that weren't half as good-looking as season 6 episodes.
A lot of unused McQuarrie paintings were pressed into service for the animated series, as I understand...
Yeah, the whole Wells family are Rebels fans where as pretty much only I like the movies. It must be doing something right.
I don't get the criticism for Lucas or Disney for wanting to make money from mechanise. I get an awful, awful lot of pleasure from my (ahem) action figures and am very, very pleased that they were, and continue, to be made. I can't remember Mickey Mouse or George Lucas holding a gun to my head and forcing (no pun intended) me to buy them.
What I really liked about the original Star Wars was the richness of it; Tuskan Raiders, the aliens in the cantina, Spice Mines of Kessel, Clone Wars? They blew my young mind and made the galaxy far, far away vast, mysterious and believable. These days, almost everything that is mentioned/introduced has half the Internet moaning that 'it's only there to sell toys.' Toys they wouldn't buy in the first place. I'm a bit bored of hearing that now.
I'm thrilled that Disney bought the franchise and am delighted that forty years on there are Star Wars films and TV series' in development and being made. I'll admit that TFA was a disappointment for me, but it has me intrigued enough about the new characters to care. Rogue One continues to blow my socks off and I have faith in Ryan Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy to shake things up a bit for The Last Jedi. I'd much rather have these films than not, and if I can buy a fucking cool replica spaceship to go with it, then that's even better.
Sadly, Star Wars is a funny old thing which attracts insane amounts of criticism. There are loads of popular movies and TV programmes I don't watch or enjoy but I don't get the urge to slag them off at every opportunity. I'm very, very happy to let those that do enjoy them to, y'know, enjoy 'em. They don't need me prattling on about whatever screwdriver/sword/wand someone dares to release to enhance their enjoyment.
Quote from: Mardroid on 02 August, 2017, 04:02:49 PM
I REALLY like Rebels, although I've only seen the first two series so far.
My kids (5 and 8) love it, mind they love any old Star Wars tat, even Phantom Menace, a matter I entirely blame myself for. My son even choose to by a 'lego' Jar Jar today at a stall in Sheffield today (he was literally sick not too long after, if I wasn't an entirely doting father I'd call that karma... or was it that I was elbow deep in vomit... which might be my karma... I'm getting off track here aren't I). I keep meaning to watch it properly as the bits I seen look great.
Whether I do like it or not seems entirely academic of course as my kids, its target audience love it. Job done Star Wars Rebels then (and the poo Star Wars films too alas!)