2000 AD in Stages

[JayzusB.Christ]

dave the future Scotland!

If you turn out to be the future of Scotland, I take it all back 

[Woolly]

I did prefer Tharg's sarky, bombastic editorial style to Bish-OP's self-confessedly po-faced one - I remember the latter scolding a reader for 'mixing his metaphors, to unsavoury effect'...

I didn't.
Considering, in hindsight, some of the crap that the mighty Bish-op had to run in the Meg at the time, and the backlash from a certain two readers (Matt & Sloano if you were wondering) the fact that he didn't just call them out as King Canutes is commendable.
That he would keep printing their letter efforts, and keep responding to them, is a testament to his love and belief in the prog/meg at the time. Most editors would have simply not printed the letters.

And this is one of the reasons why I believe Bish-Op is one of the greatest editors 2000ad and the Megazine has ever seen. I honestly believe that without his sheer love of the property, Matt Smith would not have been given his time to shine.

Wish he'd have continued as editor when Alan Barnes took over, can't help but think we missed a trick there!

[Funt Solo]

Isn't there something to be said for the Matt & El Sloano sequence providing a bit of frisson? I recall being more interested in a letters page that had a sense of continuity, regardless of whether the views on offer were reasonable or balanced. (It's long enough ago that all I remember is their views being robust.)

[IndigoPrime]

Robust but also sometimes contrarian for the sake of it. Certain modern-day groups on Facebook remind me of their missives.

[JayzusB.Christ]

And this is one of the reasons why I believe Bish-Op is one of the greatest editors 2000ad and the Megazine has ever seen. I honestly believe that without his sheer love of the property, Matt Smith would not have been given his time to shine.

I'm not disputing that - Bish-Op was the Tharg who turned the prog round, and it's been on a roll ever since. 

I was only talking about the funny smart-arse Tharg letter answers really, which I still kind of miss in the prog - the Damage Report still provides the same kind of laughs though.

[The Monarch]

Didn't want to make a thread about it but since we just passed its stage completely I needed to get this off my chest.

Mark Millars robohunter was rougher than i remember it. God how did this tripe get commisoned and allowed to run as long as it was. Its sexist, violent, racist and just pretty much all in terrible. I genuinly cannot see something like this get past the editor of the current prog at all

what was tharg thinking?!? I am so sorry David Bishop you were one of the good ones at least the only dreck you let in were the garbage your predecessor paid for.

[IndigoPrime]

I can think of two editorial decisions during Matt's tenure that made me properly upset (one of which was claimed to have been his idea). But there are more decisions that are at least as bad in probably every episode of that Millar dreck. It's relentlessly awful in every conceivable way.

[The Monarch]

if its what i think it is i am in the same camp as you

[Aaron A Aardvark]

Didn't want to make a thread about it but since we just passed its stage completely I needed to get this off my chest.

Mark Millars robohunter was rougher than i remember it. God how did this tripe get commisoned and allowed to run as long as it was. Its sexist, violent, racist and just pretty much all in terrible. I genuinly cannot see something like this get past the editor of the current prog at all

what was tharg thinking?!? I am so sorry David Bishop you were one of the good ones at least the only dreck you let in were the garbage your predecessor paid for.

Another one I missed during my 1990s Long Walk.

Unlike other infamous stories like Ball Bros I've never felt curious to see what it was actually like.

[IndigoPrime]

if its what i think it is i am in the same camp as you

FWIW, the two are:

[spoiler]
- That scene in Lenny Zero where everyone's compelled to fuck each other ("haha—rape!")
- Moloch raping and murdering Niamh (rape AND fridging!)
[/spoiler]

The second of those was suggested by Smith. [spoiler]It's a rare misstep on his part, but also very much a male gaze justification: "It was my suggestion that we give Niamh - a long-term supporting character - a death scene to remember, which would make Slaine's desire for vengeance all the more powerful." So a women has to be raped to death by a demon, in order to make Sláine suitably angry. Just no.

I actually agree that cutting to Sláine finding his dying wife perhaps wouldn't have had the right impact. But if you're going to fridge Niamh, at least have her go down fighting in furious battle, like a Celt. Sláine would still have been mightily pissed off. She didn't need to be killed off in such a repellant manner, not least in a comic that was at the time — and still is — pretty poor when it comes to gender balance.

Kudos at least to Matt back in 2003 for owning up to making that decision. But the decision itself is something that will never sit right with me, and that soured an otherwise high point for the strip.
[/spoiler]

Also, reading that original thread again is illuminating. It takes until the second page until Queen Fiery-Bou notes the real problem, which is the [spoiler]"portrayal of women as sexual objects to be taken or violated  according to the whim of the hero or anti-hero" and that "women are not just plot devices". Prior to that, men had mostly been arguing about whether or not this scene was suitable for kids, and whether 2000 AD was for kids these days anyway.[/spoiler] This is why we need more women in comics—and it's good that 2000 AD is (slowly) heading in that direction.

EDIT: Bloody hell. Having read that entire thread, I feel the need for a shower. Horrible. I'd hope the board in general is a bit more thoughtful these days.

(Apologies for the thread derail. I'm sure it'll be back on track with the next excellent instalment of In Stages.)

[Dark Jimbo]

The really interesting thing about Niamh's, er, 'fate' (with apologies for the further derailment) is that [spoiler]it had already happened to her twice before - but I've never seen those other instances so much as mentioned.

In Name of the Sword she's gang-raped (as Marian) by the Norman guards after her trial, and in The Secret Commonwealth it's strongly implied she's been sexually assaulted (or worse) by Slaine's impostor. Which does rather put paid to any defences of what happened in Moloch, given it was the third occasion for the character. [/spoiler]

[Tjm86]

I'd hope the board in general is a bit more thoughtful these days.

Well, consider the response Dr Alt-8 got when she asked about her predatory encounter ...

[IndigoPrime]

I don't recall the board being dismissive of real-world experiences back in the day, but yeah. That was a good response to see. I do hope we're aware of wider experiences, and the manner in which media still tends to very much gear itself around male gaze, and how that's ultimately not that beneficial to anyone in the long run.

[davidbishop]

Didn't want to make a thread about it but since we just passed its stage completely I needed to get this off my chest.

Mark Millars robohunter was rougher than i remember it. God how did this tripe get commisoned and allowed to run as long as it was. Its sexist, violent, racist and just pretty much all in terrible. I genuinly cannot see something like this get past the editor of the current prog at all

what was tharg thinking?!? I am so sorry David Bishop you were one of the good ones at least the only dreck you let in were the garbage your predecessor paid for.

Oh, I definitely commissioned some mis-steps! But thanks for the kind words...

[The Monarch]

yup ip [spoiler]the niamh thing[/spoiler] never sat well with me