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Semi Finals: 2 - Ian Edginton or Dan Abnett - Ultimate not Wagner Tourney

Started by Colin YNWA, 21 June, 2020, 07:21:51 AM

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Colin YNWA

Quote from: Greg M. on 23 June, 2020, 09:11:40 AM
The impression I get (and it's only an impression, because this was during my prog hiatus) is that for a long time, Sinister Dexter got mired in an interminable ongoing plot and completely lost its way. For me, the original format was best - lots of one-shots, interspersed with longer stories that moved things forward, delivered with very regular frequency.

This is a commonly held opinion which I've long pointed out is WRONG, WRONG WRONG you bunch of dunderheads I'll come around there and... ahem... sorry about that... to which I have an alternative view. Yep the popular view is War of the Moses lost its way, but having read it in isolation a couple of times how it always kept things on track, each episode nicely recapping what the reader needed to know at that point and making each chunk satisfying in its own right... but I'm the view of a minority with that view its fair to say. There was a fantastic strong narrative thread through it all to pull it all together.

Scheduling seems to have played a part in the problems as well.

The point being that I've always found Sinister Dexter a fantastic vehicle for all sorts of story formats. The short done in one (or two, or three), the longer form 4-10 parter. The 'Book' or chapter format 10-15 episodes and even longer form stories told over many such chunks like those mentioned. Its the strips great strength for me, that and the morally ambigeous, but utter charismatic leads.

I think Ian Edginton could of had that with Red Seas, and possibly Stickleback come to think of it but has gone for the 10-12 episode chunks format instead. Which is cool, but does hang him out to the problems you highlight.

TordelBack

In Greg's sense Edginton has plenty of 'complete' stories to his name, though. There was nothing about the first two series of Scarlet Traces that didn't feel complete on their own; ditto Stone Island - I was genuinely surprised when that came back for more, and while American Gothic could have continued it worked fine as one story (we'll glide over Detonator X and Interceptor,  except to say they're over). All bar the last book of Stickleback worked fine as standalone stories. Aforementioned Red Seas and Leviathan were done, but with connections to further strips. I suspect the perception comes from Brass Sun and Ampney Crucis because both consciously end each book a cliffhanger, and Helium because it never got going,  but Kingmaker still very much in the current rotation.

Keeping a range of interesting ongoing visually-strong stories going seems as important to the health of the comic as a rapid churn of done-in-one 10 parters, and I think perhaps expecting the 'Strontium Dog model' is asking a lot of writers when Wagner & Grant SD and maybe pre-Horned God Sláine are really the only adventure strips that managed it successfully. Maybe GFD Rogue,  but less so. 

Colin YNWA

It will be interesting to see if when Stickleback returns if its used to wrap the series up, or whether its going to open things out again.

The one I hope gets a platform to get wrapped up is Brass Sun which is a fantastic series and its very specifically quest based nature means it needs an ending.

The problem will remain - I suspect but clearly don't know - that both series are so associated with very busy and popular artists  that it might be their availability and time that is the issue, rather than Ian's scripts?

TordelBack

Good point - particularly unfortunate that Brass Sun shares its art god with the prog's current most popular (and prolific) non-Dredd strip. But for any Helium, Scarlet Traces and Stickleback log-jam, Ian only has himself to blame!  (I know another solution has been found for Helium).

Greg M.

Quote from: TordelBack on 23 June, 2020, 11:22:47 AM
In Greg's sense Edginton has plenty of 'complete' stories to his name, though. There was nothing about the first two series of Scarlet Traces that didn't feel complete on their own; ditto Stone Island - I was genuinely surprised when that came back for more, and while American Gothic could have continued it worked fine as one story

Fair points - these are predominantly stories from when I wasn't reading the prog, so I'll confess my ignorance: Stone Island and American Gothic weren't on my radar.

Quote from: TordelBack on 23 June, 2020, 11:22:47 AM
I think perhaps expecting the 'Strontium Dog model' is asking a lot of writers when Wagner & Grant SD and maybe pre-Horned God Sláine are really the only adventure strips that managed it successfully. Maybe GFD Rogue,  but less so.

Absolutely GFD Rogue Trooper. Plenty of others - I won't list them here, but there's surely no shortage of 2000AD stories that are about a main character (or characters) having different, separate adventures, of varying lengths (and varying quality, depending on the writer.) I don't think that format is a problem.


Bolt-01

And let's not forget that Brass Sun and Kingmaker seem to be in the same 'space' as it were.

TordelBack

Quote from: Greg M. on 23 June, 2020, 11:49:44 AM
Absolutely GFD Rogue Trooper. Plenty of others - I won't list them here, but there's surely no shortage of 2000AD stories that are about a main character (or characters) having different, separate adventures, of varying lengths (and varying quality, depending on the writer.) I don't think that format is a problem.

It's clearly very challenging, though - are there really that many in that open-ended model that are very good, outside of comedy strips like Ace Trucking,  Robohunter,  Survival Geeks, or Pat Mills gang-gets-together gang-breaks-up gang-fights-another-gang cycles? Rennie may seem to have the action side of that market cornered, but even his series evolve into sequential cliffhangers (Absalom, Aquila) rather than characters-have-discrete-adventures-in-a-setting.

I had high hopes for the wonderful Damnation Station and Grey Area but both headed for the epic storyline exit. Recent entrant to this SD structure Skip Tracer has been less than universally embraced, and perennial example Sinister Dexter (also largely a comedy) attracts no small amount of criticism...

Greg M.

Quote from: TordelBack on 23 June, 2020, 01:39:12 PM
It's clearly very challenging, though - are there really that many in that open-ended model that are very good, outside of comedy strips like Ace Trucking,  Robohunter,  Survival Geeks, or Pat Mills gang-gets-together gang-breaks-up gang-fights-another-gang cycles?

I wouldn't characterise Ace Trucking, Robo-Hunter or Sinister Dexter as pure comedy strips, even though they're clearly more comedic than, say, Rogue Trooper - they still have an edge to them. But they're certainly amongst the ones I was thinking of.

Other ones? Armoured Gideon - four stories, all pretty different. Luke Kirby - broadly about Luke growing up, but four separate adventures. Dandridge - probably fits with your comedy stories (as, of course, does Big Dave!) Here's a few substantial ones though - Anderson, Psi-Division; Missionary Man, Shimura and Devlin Waugh. All Dreddworld, of course.


TordelBack

Points all!  Probably an issue for me that Shimura, Missionary Man and about 20 years of Anderson do nothing for me, and Armoured Gideon not much more, art aside. Or to put it another way,  I'd prefer pretty much any of the latter day '12 part books' strips to any of those.

Luke Kirby and Devlin Waugh are incontestable examples of success, and also two of the comic's greatest strips. I'm probably bring unfair excluding the more comedy-based strips, I suppose I'm thinking that it's easier* to do funny little vignettes where the gag is the goal (Dandridge a good example of something that goes further).

I'm certainly not arguing against the Strontium Dog model, a strong character in short adventures over a long residency is perfect for my tastes,  I just think it must be immensely difficult to get right, not just the setup but the relentless devouring of ideas and situations**  - and the prog is littered with the corpses to prove it. 

*For a very specific interpretation of 'easy'.

** Compare it to a book of Brass Sun,  for example.  One main location,  some new characters,  a challenge, a setback,  a revelation and a cliffhanger - gets you 12 parts and the first chunk of the next book. A postulated Adventures of Wren in Clockwork World OTOH conceivably requires that level of invention every couple of weeks.

Funt Solo

I wonder why I've never tired of Dredd, but definitely have tired of Sinister Dexter. Is it Mega-City One? The city is always in peril, and is a living, breathing beast that we care about. Downlode? It's a great setting: you can add bits on as needed, and fill it with puns. But it's not in peril, and it's not a place I (or the characters) care about. It's not even consistently home.

The formula is writ large, and so it comes across as formulaic. Even to the extent that when things got multi-dimensional and there was too much backstory to contend with, the solution was just to pretend none of it had happened. So that we could get more ... of the same.

Sinister Dexter works as a very character-specific Tharg's Future Shocks replacement. You can put it in any prog, in any order, as much or as little as you like. Any artist. Any writer? Tharg's Future Puns (featuring Irish Vincent Vega and Jules "Snipes" Winnfield).

I know - it's an anthology. I get to enjoy the other stuff. (And I did enjoy early Sin Dex ... it just got boring and repetitive. Perhaps the problem is that I continued reading the comic? For new readers, it would still feel fresh and exciting.)
++ A-Z ++  coma ++

Greg M.

Quote from: TordelBack on 23 June, 2020, 04:52:31 PM
Compare it to a book of Brass Sun,  for example.  One main location,  some new characters,  a challenge, a setback,  a revelation and a cliffhanger - gets you 12 parts and the first chunk of the next book. A postulated Adventures of Wren in Clockwork World OTOH conceivably requires that level of invention every couple of weeks.
It's a fair point, but your parallel universe version of Brass Sun sounds so much more my cup of tea, in terms of pacing and turnover of ideas!

Magnetica

Personally I love Sinister Dexter and think (as Colin has said) that it can do long and short form stories equally well. Not sure about the "any writer" part mentioned above - I'm pretty sure every episode has been written by Dabnett and its one reason I voted for him. For what it's worth I think Grey Area is also equally suited to long and short form stories.

Picking up a point from a bit earlier, I'm not sure format is the issue with Edginton having so many stories that haven't been wrapped up. Surely he just needs to concentrate on them and get them done before starting something else (?).

JayzusB.Christ

I always wanted a few more Downlode Tales - not the post-Eurocrash-Sinister-Dexter-fallen-out-but-will-clearly-make-friends-again ones, but the ones that focused on other characters and aspects of the city.  Clearly inspired by Tales from Mega City One, but in a good way - Downlode is very different from Dredd's world and lots of fun, and I still think the Pulp Fiction cosplay duo could step out of the way now and again and give us a look at what's going on elsewhere.
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

Colin YNWA

Well its been a hearty debate and lots of love for both fantastic writers, no surprise there. But if you haven't already its time to make a call as this one will close in the morning (Thursday) first thing.

We have a final coming...

IndigoPrime

Quote from: Funt Solo on 23 June, 2020, 05:16:44 PMI wonder why I've never tired of Dredd, but definitely have tired of Sinister Dexter. Is it Mega-City One?
For me, the central premise is flawed. Like Terminator 2 (now he's a good guy!), this one's "assassins with a conscience" never really clicked. That's not to say I can't enjoy the better tales, but Sin/Dex for me always feels too much like filler, and the ongoing arcs have been convoluted and not that exciting for me.

Abnett, though, is a force of nature; and although his output is variable in terms of quality, he hits some seriously impressive highs. Brink and Kingdom are two of my favourite 2000 AD strips ever. Lawless in the Meg is superb. Grey Area could have joined that, had it not suffered from a blind spot when it comes to being frequently sexist.

Edginton has a lot of imagination and also some fantastic world-building. Scarlet Traces is an excellent example—although I'll admit to preferring the series prior to the 2000 AD run. Brass Sun is a wonderful tale, Leviathan is a first-rate one-and-done, and Stickleback had me hooked until the last reveal.

For me, it's Abnett, by a nose. Ultimately, it's the pace of series that nail it for me. Wherever the scheduling issues lie, that might not be Edginton's fault per se, but it does take the edge off of his output. That said, this was not an easy choice.