This Forum

[LARF]

Refering to the recent prog review thread, this has just appeared from Matt:

"OK, that's enough. You don't like a story, fine, but comments such as Philt's are utterly disrespectful to the professional creators involved. If you can't be constructive, or at least polite, in your criticisms, then go off to some other corner of the internet and be needlessly rude and confrontational. But it will no longer be tolerated on this site.

I've had more than one creator contacting me recently about comments made on this messageboard, and frankly this forum has been on thin ice for a while. It isn't doing the site, 2000 AD or Rebellion any favours, and unless I start seeing some moderation in language used then the messageboard will be pulled altogether.

A little decorum, please, and a little more thought before posting ill-considered and disrespectful remarks."

I like this Forum. The thought that it has been on 'thin ice for a while' makes me saddened. I think from now on we all ought to just be aware of our attitudes whilst on here. I'm probably as guilty as the rest in some respects but I think we are all old enough and wise enough to moderate ourselves, I don't want the forum to be pulled I've been a 2000ad fan since I was seven, this board is a great way for us all to communicate and exchange ideas.

On the other foot I think that there is a certain aspect to how far can we go, there are guidelines and making defamatory comments against people and personal attacks is one of the no-no's - the board is a critique and does review the latest publications. Matt's been approached by some creators recently and I know from some of the threads they in turn have retaliated to remarks made against them, we are entitled to an opinion I think we have to be careful on how we phrase it.

Discuss?

[dweezil2]

I already did. Here it is again, for the cheap seats.

Totally agree. It's not the first time I've read some ill-conceived, vindictive remarks regarding one creator or another, it's not even constuctive criticism half the time and appears to just be an excuse to vent some deep seated inferiority complex-it's no wonder comic readers get a hard time of it.

[Dark Jimbo]

I killfiled Philt yonks ago (can't remember why) so I've got no idea what he said, but we've been here before, haven't we, even in the three or four years I've been using the board.

I just think it's a shame that a minority will always spoil it for the rest. A messageboard without critiscm or comment would render it pretty much redundant; having said that, this being the internet, an awful lotta folks will forget that the creators could potentially read anything they post, and whatever the merits of the work in question, at the end of the day it's something they've worked hard on and deserves, at the very least, a considered response; i.e. explain why you think something's shit; don't just post 'it's shit.'

And when it all decends into personal attacks on certain creators (see every thread ever started regarding Pat Mills), I think that's when a line needs to be drawn. That doesn't really benefit anyone.

[Bad Andy]

Matt's just passing the pain downwards. I don't see anything remotely as bad on here as you get on other review forums.

I would say in many cases it's the creators themselves who have acted like prima donnas, with John Smith being the latest example. Matt Smith has to soothe over the fragile, shattered egos. Well he'd do well with concentrating on helping his staff reach the creative highs they are capable of, rather than actually pay credence to them sulking at online comments.

Phil T's remarks were hardly the zenith of creative criticism and its clearly not the worst in 10 years for many people. In the past year or so the Prog has been excellent, but this last month has seen a slightly lower level of zarjazness than what has been achieved recently. But even so - he should be allowed to express an opinion however over the top.

As for the board being 'on thin ice' - I've never heard such nonsense. Take a look around at some of the other anarchic forums around and be pleased at the quality of some of members on here.

[Richmond Clements]

It's just another form of cyber-bulling, innit? It's happened here before and I'm sure it'll happen again.

That said, I am of the view that you can say anything is shit if you want- but you better be able to explain exactly why it is shit. Just brushing it off as shit with one or two words is lazy.

[Tweak72]

whodidwhatonthewherenow?

[Peter Wolf]

 I am probably not the best behaved boarder here but  i generally avoid personal attacks on others and generally avoid posting abuse and insults.I am guilty of a certain amount of swearing but in my opinion its not excessive.

 As for the reviews if i was a creator then i would want to know why my work is rubbish.That was S*** ,that was crap or whatever does not constitute a review anyway.

 Creators want feedback that is constructive.Constructive does not have to mean positive either.I am a creator of sorts as i am doing illustration and drawing landscapes and i show others the work and i want feedback not just "Its nice" or "i dont like it ".I dont care if its positive or negative as long as its constructive.


 Comments like "Fanboy town" or "messageboard town" in reference to this board [or any other board or forum] are not welcome either as that is insulting as well.Fans buy and read the product and support the industry so its derogatory to make comments like that as if there were no fans or boarders there would not be an industry.

Respect all round please.

[Dark Jimbo]

I would say in many cases it's the creators themselves who have acted like prima donnas, with John Smith being the latest example.

:-) Yeah, I wasn't going to mention that, but...

I'm still bemused by the whole episode. Almost makes a mockery of what I've just said. I was actually trying to follow my own guidelines there; cite precedent, point out that I wasn't having a go, refrain from a personal attack on John himself, and what did I get? A rambling tirade of agressive abuse for my troubles.

Fans - especially internet-based fans - and especially comic fans - are always going to gripe, bitch and moan. That's just fandom. Sure, it's negative, unhelpful and perhaps even insulting, but are our sad grumblings really going to make a difference to anything?

If anything is going to give Rebellion a bad name, surely it's when creators descend to the same level?

[IndigoPrime]

The thing people forget is that the message board is part of an official, commercial website. Because 2000 AD's website is more fan-oriented than most, some posters don't realise that posts here can impact on the company (Rebellion) and magazine itself. And yet I still recall the flack I got when reworking this section by putting the 'fan zone' graphic at the top of the, erm, fan zone. Too many hair-triggers, methinks...

Regarding Matt's general comment, I agree. Criticism is fine, as long as it's constructive. Saying "2000 AD is bollocks!" doesn't help anyone, bar possibly offering some strange relief for the person posting the message. If you don't like a story or some art, say why. Give reasoning. (To be frank, the same should be true for positives - saying _why_ you like something, rather than that you just do, is more helpful to the team and creators.)

I think more people should be honest with themselves about what they post, how they post, and why. If you're talking about someone's work, be constructive, and only say what you would to them in person. Don't be rude, don't be vindictive, and certainly don't be utterly disrespectful.

[LARF]

"whodidwhatonthewherenow?"

Here you go Tweak

Link: http://www.2000adonline.com/?zone=fan&page=messagethread&choice=22554&skip=25&Replies=36" target="_blank">Zarjaz Thread

[IndigoPrime]

"As for the board being 'on thin ice' - I've never heard such nonsense."

It's a serious point, however. This board's been under threat of being pulled (for various reasons) more than once over the past few years.

[WoD]

I haven't noticed that much out of order, but I speed read most of it and the abuse isn't aimed at me so means very little to me.  

Regarding John Smith, I've never thought of him as taking himself too seriously or being 'prima-donna' about his work.  He is one of the creators who gives feedback on work and offers advice over at scriptdroids and that isn't an ego thing that's for sure.

I think you can give honest critique and if you don't like something you should be able to say so...but justify it and don't be a prick about it.

[pauljholden]

I have some opinions, but I'm not sure which camp people will assume I'm speaking for : I've been on this forum since the beginning, and on the alt.comics.2000AD NG for some time before that. I consider myself a 2000AD fan, who happens, occasionally, to draw for 2000AD (others may view me as a 'pro' though - in either case, I speak only for myself)

I, personally, would change the rules of this place to match what used to be the rules on 'The Engine' and is the current ruling on panel and pixel, to wit (quote from panelandpixel):

"1.) All user are required to use their REAL NAMES. No interwub handles are supported or tolerated here. You want to post, put your name to your words.

2.) P&P is intended to be an open venue for discourse. (can't very well improve the state of comics if we can't speak frankly about it, can we?) HOWEVER said open discourse does not = free reign to be an unmitigated asshole, or treat other members like shit. You are expect to at the very least pretend to act your age, and with a modicum of civility."

Two simple rules: real names, no being a dick. This is a great forum and has, imho, helped in some small way to contribute to the creation of a great little UK comics industry, and, within the forum there's the opportunity to actually talk to the guys behind 2000AD - those of them that haven't abandoned the place due to the minority of idiots.

Would it harm the place if people weren't allowed to just say 'x is shite'?

- pj

[satchmo]

This is the only message board I use because I love 2000AD and the people here aren't mentalists, like every other comics board!

I don't agree with his comments on the prog, or much of anything, but unless he nicked it from Smiths (which he didn't!!!!!) Philt payed £1.90 for that comic he slagged off.

If the board closes will someone come and get me and show me where the new one is please?!

[Richmond Clements]

Two very good ideas there, PJ.
I'd certainly back them if they were adopted.