So I just read the Day Of Chaos collection right, and I was wondering, after all the death and destruction, what's the actual number of people living in the big meg right now? According to the Chief Judge, 347 million died in the days leading to chaos day. Anyone can clarify?
About 50 million.
Quote from: redstellini on 22 September, 2013, 11:44:35 PM...347 million died in the days leading to chaos day. Anyone can clarify?
The vast majority of those actually died
after Chaos Day/Election Day, as shown in 'The Days After', although the transmission of the Chaos virus between blocks took place during the rioting and fighting prior to the day itself.
But yeah, only 1 in 8 citizens survived those weeks*. Circumstantial evidence from subsequent stories suggests that the fatalities were unevenly distributed, with individual blocks, areas and maybe even sectors having much higher survival rates**, while the death toll in other areas was total. Certain groups might also be expected to have been less likely to succumb due to precautions or protection, including Justice Dept themselves, the isolated or well-defended rich, and well-organised Citi-Defs or the sharper criminal gangs.
The Judges are engaged in an ongoing programme of 'clearance' and rationalisation, effectively continuing the 'safe blocks' policy from the height of the crisis in moving citizens into densely populated areas. Hence some parts of the city look as bustling as ever, while far greater parts are now deserted wastelands.
*Or just 1 out of 16 of the total population at the start of the 22nd Century. Nice work, Justice Department!
** Otherwise how could various criminal networks we've seen continue to function?
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 September, 2013, 12:26:02 AM
Quote from: redstellini on 22 September, 2013, 11:44:35 PM...347 million died in the days leading to chaos day. Anyone can clarify?
Certain groups might also be expected to have been less likely to succumb due to precautions or protection, including Justice Dept themselves, the isolated or well-defended rich, and well-organised Citi-Defs or the sharper criminal gangs.
Could be argued that they would be the worse affected, given their proximity to weapons both large and small, see CF vs Pete Wells blocks :D
Quote from: Proudhuff on 23 September, 2013, 11:54:01 AM...see CF vs Pete Wells blocks :D
Aye, when losers fight, there are no winners.
Surely the inside of a cube was tge safest place to be, so convicted perps should be in higher supply.
Quote from: The Cosh on 23 September, 2013, 06:30:59 PM
Surely the inside of a cube was tge safest place to be, so convicted perps should be in higher supply.
But if all available Judges were on the streets fighting, or dead, who would feed and water them? I bet the Iso-cubes are full of loads of perps who starved to death. Unless Dredd decided to drown them all again.
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 23 September, 2013, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: The Cosh on 23 September, 2013, 06:30:59 PM
Surely the inside of a cube was tge safest place to be, so convicted perps should be in higher supply.
But if all available Judges were on the streets fighting, or dead, who would feed and water them? I bet the Iso-cubes are full of loads of perps who starved to death.
Interesting! While we've read about escapes during Chaos Day, I'd assume that this was the main result of the likely undermanning. The worst of the disaster takes place over a week, maybe a fortnight (after that the bug victims will be dead), and the judges have the foresight and man/robotpower to protect essential utilities throughout. I don't think there was much danger of the perps starving.
Also, although it's possible iso-blocks were overrun by hordes of bug victims I can't really see it. Those places are pretty secure, unless you're a Dark Judge or PJ Maybe.
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 23 September, 2013, 06:45:29 PMUnless Dredd decided to drown them all again.
That. Never. Happened.
Even thinking about that scene just brings home how
completely Morrisllar misunderstood the character.
SHAME ON YOU ALL!
This question has already been asked -but never answered - in one of the Greatest Threads of All Time!
http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php/topic,21095.0.html (http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php/topic,21095.0.html)
EXACTLY! Never. Answered. I want to know how many people are residing in Mega-City One as of the day after Chaos Day. That is my one true question. Apocalypse War was 30 years ago, Necropolis was a few years after, which would give the big meg enough time to repopulate, I'm sure. So the question stands: Mega-City One, population number?
Quote from: redstellini on 23 September, 2013, 09:56:23 PM
EXACTLY! Never. Answered. I want to know how many people are residing in Mega-City One as of the day after Chaos Day. That is my one true question. Apocalypse War was 30 years ago, Necropolis was a few years after, which would give the big meg enough time to repopulate, I'm sure. So the question stands: Mega-City One, population number?
It told you at the time (40 million) and the inside page of the comic tells you how many folks there are living in MC1 every week. It's up to 50 million now.
Quote from: redstellini on 23 September, 2013, 09:56:23 PM
EXACTLY! Never. Answered. I want to know how many people are residing in Mega-City One as of the day after Chaos Day. That is my one true question. Apocalypse War was 30 years ago, Necropolis was a few years after, which would give the big meg enough time to repopulate, I'm sure. So the question stands: Mega-City One, population number?
Look, you can't just ask what the population is. How do you define it? Do you include Gribligs? Have
you done the Space Maths over the repopulation rates for x million cits? Allowing for mutants?
You might as well ask how old Dredd is and be done with it.
He hasn't even said whether he's including those not previously counted as iinhabut now having taken advantage of the depopulation and judicially mandated consolidation of housing to seek shelter and opportunity within the former limits of the city..
With PSU gone there could be hundreds of thousands of survivors popping up all the time...
My question has been answered. So wow, the big meg has been reduced to almost nothing in comparison.
Quote from: redstellini on 25 September, 2013, 11:06:55 PM
My question has been answered. So wow, the big meg has been reduced to almost nothing in comparison.
Effectively MC-1 finally lost the Apocalypse War (750 million dead versus East Meg-1's 500 million, as a crude scorecard), they just didn't realise they were still fighting it 30 years on. This may serve as the single most impressive coda in comics - after the somewhat gung-ho 'resolution' to the AW ('next time we get our retaliation in first'), Wagner hammers home the reality that in the age of nuclear weapons and germ warfare, there can't be any long-term winners, and even in asymmetric warfare there is little defence for the larger nation if they have lost the trust and support of their own people.
Proportionally, Dredd still wins.
However, I agree with everything else. Can't remember when, presumably the start of DoC, but I was thinking "more bloody Sovs " when it hit me that of course these people would still be out for even living for - revenge. It's only been thirty years and look how the Brits still go on about "the" war.
Quote from: TordelBack on 26 September, 2013, 12:15:22 AM
This may serve as the single most impressive coda in comics - after the somewhat gung-ho 'resolution' to the AW ('next time we get our retaliation in first')
Well he did try to remind them - in black & white no less - with his 30 year follow-up:
"Units on the ground- only way to be sure." but that fakkin' poindexter
General Poll had other ideas. You'd think they'd have learned- never doubt ole Joe.
There are the Muties, Trogies and returnees to count now as well, where's PSU when you need em?
I wouldn't be surprised if MC2 bought some emptyspace for overspill, or if its the GRennie Droid:China buys it.
50 million is still a lot of people, especially if they are being kept within certain zones. Assuming a very healthy poulation growth of 5% though, its going to take decades for the Meg population to get back to normal. This is not a problem really - 50 million perps is still plenty for Dredd to work on but what I would like to see is some more stuff about how Justice Dept plan to deal with the city they now have on their hands.
OK, we have seen that blocks are being cleared of people (alive and dead) and some are getting knocked down but what is the bigger plan? They can't leave loads of blocks empty or these will just become overrun with criminals. And if they do knock them all down, what are they going to do with the space? In the past it feels like we would have had some more unique MC1 ways of dealing with the extra space - a vast MC1 Jurassic Park built on the site of cleared blocks, a massive new mega-mall being built where citizens can spend their entire lives, sections of the city being covered in boing to keep out trespassers, etc....
When it comes to population numbers in the Dredd-verse. My question was always "If the world was basically a radioactive hell world..How come there are so many people living in the mega cities?"
Quote from: Fragminion on 03 October, 2013, 04:45:53 AM
When it comes to population numbers in the Dredd-verse. My question was always "If the world was basically a radioactive hell world..How come there are so many people living in the mega cities?"
Because the Mega-Cities were established before the Atomic Wars and, in the case of MC1, were (partially) protected by an anti-missile shield. Add into that the ability to grow artificial foodstuffs, and everything's hunky-dory. Just don't ask about fallout.
Quote from: Molch-R on 03 October, 2013, 10:38:26 AMJust don't ask about fallout.
Radiation pills! And magic cloaks!
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 03 October, 2013, 12:11:30 PM
Quote from: Molch-R on 03 October, 2013, 10:38:26 AMJust don't ask about fallout.
Radiation pills! And magic cloaks!
Weather Control! No radioactive dust storms for MC1, oh no!
That said, it could be an interesting post-Chaos Day storyline. Presumably Weather Control is still out for a lot of the City? What's protecting the Cits from the rad storms now?
I've got to say something feels fundamentally wrong when Mega-City 1 contains fewer people then the population of the current era United States.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 03 October, 2013, 12:22:32 PM
I've got to say something feels fundamentally wrong when Mega-City 1 contains fewer people then the population of the current era United States.
Fewer people than the current era UK. The rationale for the harsh oppression of Justice Department was always that there were so many people to keep on top of in a relatively small space. If an author/editor was planning for the Judges to relax that grip and reintroduce democratic rule, removing the factor of the chaos caused by that huge population would be one way to have that happen.
but are they happy? :P
Quote from: sauchie on 03 October, 2013, 01:16:18 PM
Fewer people than the current era UK. The rationale for the harsh oppression of Justice Department was always that there were so many people to keep on top of in a relatively small space. If an author/editor was planning for the Judges to relax that grip and reintroduce democratic rule, removing the factor of the chaos caused by that huge population would be one way to have that happen.
After so many decades of it being the way that the Old MC1 was. Would either the Citz or the Judges for that matter even know HOW to even at this point?
Aye, establishing a democratic culture where one hasn't previously existed ain't like dusting crops, boy. See Afghanistan, Iraq and Egypt just for recent examples.
The qualified successes of former Soviet dependencies aside, the general pattern in countries following the violent overthrow of autocracies (the English Civil War and its 'Glorious' aftermath, France, USA, Russia, South and Central America for most of the 20th C) is for power to change hands several times between revolutionary factions and/or for the ancient regime to return, before some equilibrium is found - sometimes only after internecine warfare.
Even in self-determining states formed after the peaceful change of power between oppressors and popular democrats, there's a tendency for things to degenerate into factionalism and even genocide - see most of Africa in the 20th C, India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, Vietnam and the Balkans. Thankfully, all of that sounds like excellent source material for a story.
So in other words it would be a case of...
MCCitizen1 "Yay. Were Free!"
MCCiitzen2 "Yes we are now free...so now what?"
MCCitizen1 "I dunno.....how about a Block War?*
MCCitizen2 "Works for me*
I can't help but thinking that such a catastrophe would have caused a complete and utter economic collapse of MC1. Sure you still have robots and computers and stuff running the infrastructure that wasn't destroyed in the riot but surely capitalist economies can't survive 7/8ths of teh consumer base disappearing effectively overnight?
Why haven't we seen these sort of effects in the strip?
Oh yeah, it would be a really boring story.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 04 October, 2013, 12:25:17 PM
Oh yeah, it would be a really boring story.
That sentence made me laugh.
Every time someone sneezes on the tube I think of the Chaos bug :(
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 04 October, 2013, 12:25:17 PM
I can't help but thinking that such a catastrophe would have caused a complete and utter economic collapse of MC1. Sure you still have robots and computers and stuff running the infrastructure that wasn't destroyed in the riot but surely capitalist economies can't survive 7/8ths of teh consumer base disappearing effectively overnight?
Why haven't we seen these sort of effects in the strip?
Oh yeah, it would be a really boring story.
I dunno, I thought that story with Maitland and Dredd discussing Justice Depts massive overspend in the wake of Chaos Day was really good!
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 04 October, 2013, 01:31:42 PM
I dunno, I thought that story with Maitland and Dredd discussing Justice Depts massive overspend in the wake of Chaos Day was really good!
It was, but would it have been good repeated the second week, the next month?
I thought that would have been a really good story as well - with any sort of setback like that you would expect that the city would have to turn to external investment and encouraging investment.
Full of action that!
Quote from: James Stacey on 04 October, 2013, 01:45:08 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 04 October, 2013, 01:31:42 PM
I dunno, I thought that story with Maitland and Dredd discussing Justice Depts massive overspend in the wake of Chaos Day was really good!
It was, but would it have been good repeated the second week, the next month?
When a country's economy collapses, what are the results? Starvation, rioting, black markets, gangsterism, political upheaval, muggings, theft, mob rule - all of these things would make very interesting stories, particularly given the depleted Justice Dept.
I was really hoping for a one-off along the likes of 'Bob's Law' at some point - the top bods of Justice Department thrashing out between them the new in and outs of the city, centralising the new reduced population, deciding which sectors to abandon, etc.
Then you've got the sudden imbalance in the numbers of humans compared to robots (presumably most of which survived Chaos Day), mutants (especially interesting given the Tour of Duty stuff) and the apes of Apetown (which presumably weathered CD fairly well as we've not heard anything to the contrary.) Lots of interesting new dynamics to explore.
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 04 October, 2013, 05:17:55 PMStarvation, rioting, black markets, gangsterism, political upheaval, muggings, theft, mob rule - all of these things would make very interesting stories, particularly given the depleted Justice Dept.
Starvation: Wolves, Progs 1820-22; Debris Progs 1792-96
Riots: What,
more riots? Okay, try Wolves again.
Black markets: Addressed at length after previous disaster epics, not really addressed here yet.
Gangsterism: Most weeks, but try Wastelands, Prog 1837-1841 and Bender, 1845-9
Political Upheaval: Trifecta, Prog 1812; Innocent, Progs 1798-99
Muggings and theft: every sodding week for 36 years.
Mob Rule: Debris, Prog 1792-96
To your list you could add:
Post-traumatic stress and depression: Suicide Watch, Progs 1826-9, The Forsaken
Progs 1830-1835, and Bender, 1845-9.
I get the point, and I agree, the repercussions should be more profound than anything we've seen so far. But you can't say the writers haven't at least started to address most aspects of the aftermath that you outline, and more.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 04 October, 2013, 12:25:17 PM
I can't help but thinking that such a catastrophe would have caused a complete and utter economic collapse of MC1. Sure you still have robots and computers and stuff running the infrastructure that wasn't destroyed in the riot but surely capitalist economies can't survive 7/8ths of teh consumer base disappearing effectively overnight?
Why haven't we seen these sort of effects in the strip?
Oh yeah, it would be a really boring story.
Not with Maitland in charge and the E-Wing droid in the chair!
Quote from: TordelBack on 04 October, 2013, 05:44:01 PM
Muggings and theft: every sodding week for 36 years.
:lol:
With all the potential open spaces and far less dense population, I wonder how much the surviving pop would suffer from things like agoraphobia or types of monophobia?
Or has this already been touched on?
I hate being a newbie.
Quote from: Fragminion on 05 October, 2013, 03:19:37 AM
With all the potential open spaces and far less dense population, I wonder how much the surviving pop would suffer from things like agoraphobia or types of monophobia?
Or has this already been touched on?
I hate being a newbie.
not yet but there has been a couple of tales about ghosts real/imagined and death cults
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 04 October, 2013, 05:35:27 PM
the apes of Apetown (which presumably weathered CD fairly well as we've not heard anything to the contrary.)
Tourists who go to see gorillas in the wild have to be vetted in case they have colds/flu, etc because the gorillas are so close to us genetically they can catch much the same viruses. Except it's worse for them of course as they don't have our resistance.
So the chimps and gorillas are likely to have been decimated by the chaos bug too. Unless the biogengineers were extremely specific in defining their target base in the organism, which I doubt.
Of course I'm talking about if the chaos bug were released in a realistic situation, the 2000 AD writers might not know this. So the apes might be just dandy-dory after all.
*Not the correct term, as we're talking about a biological organism rather than a machine, but I'm sure you get what I mean.
Isn't it also possible they could catch it and carry it but not become sick only to pass it back into the human population?
Well, there you go! Either way, plenty of story oppurtunities to be explored!