2000 AD Online Forum

General Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Jim_Campbell on 17 August, 2010, 04:21:27 PM

Title: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 17 August, 2010, 04:21:27 PM
...As the saying goes. This isn't a specific pop at this forum, or anyone on it, but merely the distillation of my frustration across multiple discussion boards.

Here's the thing: not all opinions are created equal.

People bleat "Well, I'm entitled to my opinion" like it's a get out of jail free card; it's my opinion, and you can't tell me it's wrong.

Yes, I can. If your opinion derives from something that is factually incorrect, yes, I bloody well can tell you it's wrong. You have the God-given right to hold a stupid opinion, and I have the right to point out that it's stupid, and that you ought to get a better one.

Y'see, I came from Usenet, which started off as a linking of very low-tech online message boards for US universities in the seventies. As such, it's always had a kind of academic bias and, even in non-academic groups, it was pretty nerdcore. As far as I can tell, only the binary groups still see much traffic, the discussion groups having largely been overrun by trolls and spammers.

But the thing about Usenet was, you could pretty much guarantee that there was someone on any given group who knew more about the subject under discussion than you did, and you'd damn well better be able to back up any claim or statement you put forward, or someone cleverer than you would rip you to shreds.

Now, I wouldn't expect anyone to have a fully developed thesis in support of every half-formed opinion they hold; that would be ridiculous. But, if you're going to put forward an opinion into a discussion forum, that very act suggests to me that you're open to having that opinion, and the reasoning behind it tested.

In this day and age, where everyone is encouraged to blog about the tedious minutiae of their lives and tweet in real time about their bowel movements, every random, half-formed thought or opinion, no matter how vacuous, is accorded status it does not deserve.

But this isn't a blog, a Facebook page, a Twitter account. It's a discussion forum, and that suggests that if you put forward an opinion, it's up for discussion.

It's true that some opinions are unchallengeable: "I don't like the art of McMahon" is unassailable and everyone is entitled to like or dislike anything they damn well please. "McMahon can't draw", on the other hand, contains an assertion presented as fact, and can be tested. Put that forward here, and I would argue that it should be tested, otherwise what was the point. If you just like the sound of your own voice, put it on your blog.

If you put forward an opinion or make a statement that I find interesting, then I'll argue it with you. Vigorously, sometimes, yes, but here's the key fact: if your argument is better than mine, I'll have learned something. I may even change my mind -- I do it all the time when someone shows me that my own argument proceeds from outdated information or an incorrect assumption. If you think that changing your mind, either in real life or on an internet discussion forum, means losing face, you're an idiot. You're not losing face, you've learned something.

On the other hand, if you put forward an opinion or a statement that is easily proven to be incorrect, you've done nothing more than demonstrate your own ignorance, because you couldn't be bothered to check your own assumption before you posted. That wastes everyone's time, and I won't apologize for giving you short shrift.

To pick a relatively recent example: on the iPad thread (http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,28666.15.html), I gave Doggie a bit of a smacking. Not because I'm pro-Apple and he's anti-Apple, but because he chose to make a claim (Apple can delete apps off your iPad) which simply isn't true, and, having had that pointed out to him, he chose to repeat it. There is a very interesting discussion to be had about the utility/ease of use trade-off in the iPad, and where that positions the product in the technology market. There are arguments on both sides that are worth testing. If you're just going to parrot a bit of FUD you picked up off a pro-Microsoft blog, forgive me if I'm not going to waste any time on you.

Rather than just say "Yeah, you know what, I actually can't back that up with any kind of fact", Doggie chose to accuse me of bullying him. It's an accusation I've been hearing a lot of over the last year or so, largely in response to my knocking down a deficient argument without due deference to the sanctity of the other person's opinion.

Fuck that. If it's a stupid opinion, I'll call it a stupid opinion, and if you post something you can't fucking substantiate, don't bleat at me for asking you to back it up, don't fucking post it in the first place.

However, it's becoming increasingly apparent that this is supposed to be a kinder, gentler board, where fully grown men having tantrums like a spoiled twelve-year old can't be chastised or mocked; where expecting people to be able to sustain their arguments if they choose to put them forward in a public forum is considered bullying.

At the risk of repeating myself: fuck that.

I'll take care of the art comp, but otherwise, I'll be spending a lot less time around here. I'll miss some of you, but as of today, I've had enough.

Enjoy your forum.

Jim
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 17 August, 2010, 04:25:54 PM
This is why we can't have nice things.  :(

I'll miss ya Jim, always a voice of reason and sanity (and profanity).
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: COMMANDO FORCES on 17 August, 2010, 04:32:17 PM
I can see right through you Jim. You just want to retire at the top, with your 69d 14h 28m on the online leader board  ;)
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Minkyboy on 17 August, 2010, 04:33:54 PM
That's a shame.
I've always found you tough but fair Jim. A little grumpy sometimes like old stoney face himself but sympathetic and compassionate to real life stuff.

This board is great because it is kind AND honest.

If no-one points out that your tat is looking a bit Nazish cos they don't want to hurt your feelings, then you lose out in the long run.
Same for all the art and story advice and criticism.
There is always some drama and pushing and shoving in forums, don't let the irrational ones beat you down. I enjoy reading your opinions and appreciate you taking on some of the nonsense especially when you are defending others.

We would be much the poorer without you Jim, stick around and keep being you.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Kerrin on 17 August, 2010, 04:37:27 PM
Shit.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Peter Wolf on 17 August, 2010, 04:44:38 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 17 August, 2010, 04:21:27 PM


Rather than just say "Yeah, you know what, I actually can't back that up with any kind of fact", Doggie chose to accuse me of bullying him. It's an accusation I've been hearing a lot of over the last year or so, largely in response to my knocking down a deficient argument without due deference to the sanctity of the other person's opinion.

Fuck that. If it's a stupid opinion, I'll call it a stupid opinion, and if you post something you can't fucking substantiate, don't bleat at me for asking you to back it up, don't fucking post it in the first place.

However, it's becoming increasingly apparent that this is supposed to be a kinder, gentler board, where fully grown men having tantrums like a spoiled twelve-year old can't be chastised or mocked; where expecting people to be able to sustain their arguments if they choose to put them forward in a public forum is considered bullying.

At the risk of repeating myself: fuck that.

I'll take care of the art comp, but otherwise, I'll be spending a lot less time around here. I'll miss some of you, but as of today, I've had enough.

Enjoy your forum.

Jim

Please dont go anywhere.Just have a break.

If people cant handle a bit of straight talk and cant handle being corrected and then cry that they are being bullied then they have the problem not you and dont let anyone make you feel like you have to neuter your opinions.

Arseholes are like opinions

Sometimes they are full of.....
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: TordelBack on 17 August, 2010, 04:44:46 PM
I'm from a Listserv and Usenet background myself, and I know what Jim means.  I have painfully clear memories of being a noxious student holding forth on ARCH-L (ca. 1992) on the work of a particular eminent archaeologist only to have that archaeologist appear and excavate me a new one, with full citations.  I still find myself hiding my nametag when I see him at conferences. Debate was robust, to put it mildly.  

Obviously the 2000AD board should be a lot more free and easy than that, but I still like to see a good well-argued fight, and I don't like to see them descend into ad hominem and accusations of bullying.  'Cunting' Campbell is a  cranky old Goth at the best of times and somewhat prone to stamp with a many-holed boot on the wandering gobshite, but he makes a gigantic contribution here and his rants are never less than well-informed and  closely argued.

Surely this forum can still be a place for his pasty kind?

In the meantime, have a wee break Jim and come back to us as full of invective and kerning advice as ever.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: JOE SOAP on 17 August, 2010, 04:54:50 PM
Grumpiness is next to Godliness.

I find it silly for people to get emotionally and personally agitated to the point of verbal abuse by often off-hand digital scratchings (not that this is you Jim) and you obviously feel put out about it enough to partially disengage, which is fair enough, but sometimes it's better to just sit back and say fuck 'em.


I hate goodbyes, but you know this ain't one really.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: zombemybabynow on 17 August, 2010, 04:56:29 PM
What peter wolf said.

QuotePlease dont go anywhere.Just have a break.

gooz-frabber and t'ing
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: JOE SOAP on 17 August, 2010, 04:56:46 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 August, 2010, 04:44:46 PM
I'm from a Listserv and Usenet background myself, and I know what Jim means.  I have painfully clear memories of being a noxious student holding forth on ARCH-L (ca. 1992) on the work of a particular eminent archaeologist only to have that archaeologist appear and excavate me a new one, with full citations.  I still find myself hiding my nametag when I see him at conferences. Debate was robust, to put it mildly.  




I'd like to see that, please provide.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: dweezil2 on 17 August, 2010, 04:57:10 PM
While I agree simply no one is going to agree on everything on a discussion forum such as this, it's true to say the views should be expressed in an informed and rounded way as possible-just saying something is shit because one doesn't like something hardly constitutes a reasoned debate(unless it's relating to a Uwe Bowl or Michael Bay film of course ;))otherwise a coherent debate on a topic is just rendered pointless.

I do think however Jim that your opinions will be sadly missed on this forum. We haven't agreed on every issue ever discussed, but who would do on an open forum, that's what makes visiting 2000adonline so much fun!

Hope you rethink your decission Jim!  :D



Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Mikey on 17 August, 2010, 04:57:32 PM
That's a real shame. As others have said, just take a break Jim.

Seeing Jim on a roll (see above) is a joy to behold and I count myself lucky never to have raised his ire  ;)...I know if I did, he wouldn't make it personal. In your honour, may I say;

[Jim Campbell]
[spoiler]Good riddance you cunt.[/spoiler]
[/Jim Campbell]

M.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: dweezil2 on 17 August, 2010, 05:00:37 PM
Just to add Jim!

I love you, in a manly way!

See, that's better isn't it? :D
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: M.I.K. on 17 August, 2010, 05:01:03 PM
Definitely not bullying.

Bullying is an unwarranted and sustained attack against someone unable or unwilling to retaliate to the same degree. Campbell don't do that.

Something to bear in mind though, Jim... There's little point arguing with someone you think is an idiot, 'cos you can't change the mind of somebody who doesn't have one.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: SmallBlueThing on 17 August, 2010, 05:01:55 PM
Yeah, just have a rest Jim, and come back.
The only problem i can see with your logic is that this board seems to be made up of mostly middleaged men nudging forty/fifty. Some of the opinions held may be based upon factual innaccuracies, but like any long-held belief, its actually increasingly difficult to change them. And challenges to them can be seen as personal attacks. When you get to our age, sometimes opinions define you, however crap they may be. If you have to re-evaluate them, you have to do so to the greater whole, which some maybe just dont want to do. Hence i say 'neil gaiman is bollocks', you ask me to back that up, i see it as an attack on my fundamental view of the world which im comfortable with and dont want to change, and things escalate. Its why we're not supposed to argue about politics and religion. Its not our fault that we stick comics and stuff up in the same league. If we were real men like our grandmothers were, none of this would happen, as we'd avoid contentious subjects, not be interested in ephemera, and meet in the pub to discuss big cabbages.

Jim, youll be missed for however long youre away. You have seemed increasingly exhasperated of late, so hope you enjoy your time away from the searing light of board-celebrity!
SBT
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: w3bz on 17 August, 2010, 05:11:36 PM
Shame it's come to this man, you'll be missed. Hope you take a break and pop back when ready  :(
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: LARF on 17 August, 2010, 05:27:37 PM
FFS Jim stay on the board man, let it ride and go with the flow, there's always going to be divisions in the ranks, come on change your mind please.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Lobo Baggins on 17 August, 2010, 05:30:14 PM
Quote from: M.I.K. on 17 August, 2010, 05:01:03 PM
Definitely not bullying.

Indeed - some people seem to have astonishingly thin skins these days... wouldn't have lasted five seconds in my school.

I rather suspect that it's so they can get the accusation in first so that they can play the victim, thus justifying any subsequent behaviour against this VICIOUS BULLY!

Baggins is wise to the ways of the bully...
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: I, Cosh on 17 August, 2010, 05:40:13 PM
Fuck off you cunt.


Or, preferably, stick around and give them what for. It makes me laugh.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Kerrin on 17 August, 2010, 05:46:46 PM
Look, if I do the Truffle Shuffle will that make you stay?

You old fucker.

The pants are staying on though this time.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Dunk! on 17 August, 2010, 06:01:42 PM
I've always enjoyed your posts, Jim. Especially your passion for comic art creation.

Hope this is just a blip.

Dunk!
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: nev on 17 August, 2010, 06:06:38 PM
You'll be missed Jim. When you tear someone to shreds for being wrong it brings a smile to my face.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Zarjazzer on 17 August, 2010, 06:08:47 PM
The boards will be poorer without you Jim Campbell. It's your decision. Sometimes you want to move on, but hopefully not in this case. At least we'll get to see you in the art comps and on deviantart.

Hopefully au revoir and not goodbye.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Spaceghost on 17 August, 2010, 06:09:03 PM
I've not been here very long and I don't know you very well but it would be a shame if you stopped posting. You're no bully. Don't let a little bit of silliness put you off. If all the clever people went away, we'd only have idiots left.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Colin YNWA on 17 August, 2010, 06:18:52 PM
I for one (well clearly judging by this thread there's a lot more than me!) will miss ya. Hope like the mob you try to leave but it keeps on dragging ya back in. If not have fun wherever you go.

Big thank you for continuing your role with the Art Comps thats a very cool gesture.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Lord Running Clam on 17 August, 2010, 06:39:31 PM
I'd just like to echo those who have already posted and say I hope this will only be a short break.

I've never seen any of your posts as bullying.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 17 August, 2010, 06:41:18 PM
This is bad. :(

I hope you reconsider and return to full thrill power soon Jim. I think like plenty of others the forum will be a poorer, more boring place without you. IAMS.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: JOE SOAP on 17 August, 2010, 07:05:34 PM
This is Jim's way of teling us he's gone to the John Byrne forum, his rightful home, where everyone is wrong.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Satanist on 17 August, 2010, 07:08:10 PM
So its come to this? Do you see what happens?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ApgdIQisic&feature=related

Cheerio & stay grumpy.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: mogzilla on 17 August, 2010, 07:36:51 PM
ahhh dont go grumpy bear ...i as well wish your grumpy uncleness to remain on the board (besides who else will spot "HIM"  as soon as you do?)

and cheers for your recent help on one of my threads..much appreciated.thanks.

come back soon. :)
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Trout on 17 August, 2010, 08:00:25 PM
Scojo used to leave from time to time, too.

Wait a minute... Can it be? ;)
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Emperor on 17 August, 2010, 08:01:24 PM
I'm sorry you feel you have to leave and hope you will reconsider at some point - its only a couple of people who have got up your nose and you have one of them on ignore. As a wise man once said to me: "don't sweat the small shit" and followed that with "its all small shit."

Opinions are indeed like arseholes, everyone has one, they all stink and if I want to see anyone else's, I'll ask. ;)
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Dog Deever on 17 August, 2010, 08:03:49 PM
Jim- I don't find you grumpy. Sounds daft, but I imagine that you (like me) have a very black sense of humour which is sometimes misread as 'being grumpy'. A lot of what you say I take as tongue in cheek- you kind of mean it, but kind of don't as well. I also think that us calling you grumpy is an equally tongue-in-cheek ritual- adding to the mythology. I think any claim of bullying on your part would be utterly ridiculous- ye jist canna thole erseholes- and you're not alone. You have my support (for all it's worth).

We need straight talkin', nae bullshit types here, that's what has kept this place relatively drama free over the few years I've been here: the people who put up with fuck all bullshit. Morons are quickly driven away or learn not to be moronic (except me).

It's not good when long-standing (-suffering) residents are actually driven away by shenanigans, especially when they contribute greatly to the board in a clearly visible and meaningful way. Even more so when the allegations are laughable.

I understand totally where you're coming from- I too cannot stand people whining when someone disagrees with them- sure argue yer point, but if someone has picked up on a hole in your theory or looked at it from another angle then you need to go away and think some more- I totally agree with what you are saying about opinions, I guess that much is obvious from the Stront discussion :).
I don't think that dude was accusing you of bullying, it was definitely me he was greetin' about, though it was possibly later in the thread that caused you concern. If it sways you at all- I think that was a case of crossed wires though, with both of you 'having a go' in jest but then misreading each other.

I wish you would reconsider, the place will be poorer without your input- doubters can take a look at the creative common to see your input for starters. As well as plentiful advice on specialist software, inking, lettering and general artings; Jim has also contibutes lots of fantastic artwork both in and out of the competitions, as well as running them for prob'ly a couple of years or so now.
If we are going to end up with the place full of girly whiners, ass-hats and over-sensitive "*gasp* OMG I'm being bullied/ offended" types then I suspect a few more heads will vanish too.I miss some of the no-nonsense types who used to knock about here, though I never knew them at all- Logan, Matt Timson, Wils for starters. I also miss PVS- who took the long walk and has never been back.

[humour]Find the Campbell in you and fight the bastards- find the Highlander who will stand in sleet for 3/4 hour in the face of cannon fire, out-manned, out-gunned and with nothing but a skirt and a pitchfork or big stick! Remember- ye dinna have tae beat them, ye only have tae fight them. Fight to keep the board ass-hat free- it's your duty! [/humour]
Having said that though-

fuck off then, you cunt!




;)
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Paul faplad Finch on 17 August, 2010, 08:19:19 PM
Quote from: Dog Deever on 17 August, 2010, 08:03:49 PM
though it was possibly later in the thread that caused you concern. If it sways you at all- I think that was a case of crossed wires though, with both of you 'having a go' in jest but then misreading each other.

Do you mean me?

While I doubt very much that Jim cares all that much about what I think of him, certainly not enough to abandon the board over it, I'd like to say that if I was in any way a contributing factor, or even (God forbid) the proverbial straw, I apologise. Profusely. Jim was here long before me and makes innumerable very positive contributions to the board. I'd feel very fucking shitty if that changed because of me.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 17 August, 2010, 08:57:19 PM
There's two scenarios here.

1) A mod has pulled Jim up. If so, that seems to be bang out of order to me. I don't want this place to be Americanized. If you are talking shite, and someone tells you, and  you don't have the good grace to back down then that is your problem.

2) If Jim is just hacked off, then while it's his call, it does strike me as letting the swines grind you down.

On a separate point, this is just indicative of Youth Today. While I can't substantiate it, I get the horrible feeling that 15-25 year olds today think the world owes them a living and have been so molly-coddled by a system and schools and parents that they can't believe it when someone doesn't indulge their spoilt bratty ego.

I am deeply, genuinely, worried about this country. That's no exaggeration. If anyone here has interviewed someone in this age group, with their airs and graces and inablity to read or write ("that's what a spellchecker is for"), then you'll know what I am talking about.

This place is a refuge from that. To give up, to leave, is just one more nail in the coffin of common sense and sanity and normality. Not just here, but everywhere.

I despair.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: w3bz on 17 August, 2010, 09:13:18 PM
[...like the new overeager guy arriving at the party too late waving a "YAY ZARJAZ 2000 AD!!!" flag...]

Woa!!!....

:o

Backs...away...slowly...

*Whispers* "You said they had beer...!?"
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Albion on 17 August, 2010, 09:37:56 PM
I keep reading this thread title as Onions are like arseholes!
I might need new glasses or maybe less homebrew.

Please don't go Jim. You will be missed.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Pete Wells on 17 August, 2010, 09:56:30 PM
Bah, I've been away for a couple of days and come back to find this, grrrr!

Don't go Mr Jim, you're our go to Apple guy, incredibly knowledgable about 2000AD and comics in general and one of the old guard. This place will be awful without you. Plus, I'm one of the few you haven't told to 'Fuck Off' yet and I was kinda looking forward to it...
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 17 August, 2010, 10:07:11 PM
Quote from: Pete Wells on 17 August, 2010, 09:56:30 PM
Plus, I'm one of the few you haven't told to 'Fuck Off' yet and I was kinda looking forward to it...

Fuck off, Pete!

(There, another satisfied customer)...

Faplad -- no, nowt to do with you, Paul.

Everyone else: thank you for the kind words. Seriously. I'll still be around for the art comps, which means that if you're not one of the lucky few with my e-mail address (it's not like I keep giving it out here or anything) I'll be here often enough to pick up PMs.

Cheers!

Jim
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Trout on 17 August, 2010, 10:08:41 PM
Back again already. Definitely Scott! :lol:
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Woolly on 17 August, 2010, 10:11:52 PM
Gonna miss you, Jim, the board will be less sane without you. Hope you come back soon.
(Even if its just to call us all sycophantic cunts  ;))
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 17 August, 2010, 10:12:35 PM
Quote from: King Trout on 17 August, 2010, 10:08:41 PM
Back again already. Definitely Scott! :lol:

Busted.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Jared Katooie on 17 August, 2010, 10:20:33 PM
Quote from: The Satanist on 17 August, 2010, 07:08:10 PM
So its come to this? Do you see what happens?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ApgdIQisic&feature=related

Cheerio & stay grumpy.

And after Jim leaves...


... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCcKBcZzGdA&feature=related)

Don't go Jim. This forum needs you like a body needs white blood cells...
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: eggonlegs on 17 August, 2010, 10:22:07 PM
Quote from: Dog Deever on 17 August, 2010, 08:03:49 PM
Jim- I don't find you grumpy. Sounds daft, but I imagine that you (like me) have a very black sense of humour which is sometimes misread as 'being grumpy'. A lot of what you say I take as tongue in cheek- you kind of mean it, but kind of don't as well. I also think that us calling you grumpy is an equally tongue-in-cheek ritual- adding to the mythology. I think any claim of bullying on your part would be utterly ridiculous- ye jist canna thole erseholes- and you're not alone. You have my support (for all it's worth).

We need straight talkin', nae bullshit types here, that's what has kept this place relatively drama free over the few years I've been here: the people who put up with fuck all bullshit. Morons are quickly driven away or learn not to be moronic (except me).
s'right
p.s. i would tell you to fuck off but you're bigger than me
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Bolt-01 on 17 August, 2010, 10:34:35 PM
Jim- Deep breath, count to ten- Then back when ready.

See you soon, in the real world!
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Pete Wells on 17 August, 2010, 10:38:24 PM
Yaaay, cheers Jim!
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: flip-r mk2 on 17 August, 2010, 11:35:47 PM
Jim, this board will be a poorer place without you,hope your self imposed exile doesn't last to long ( who else is going to point out to me about iPOD's and PODcasts).
Take care ya grumpy ole cunt.


filip

PS now that Jim's away can we start using Comic Sans . :lol:
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: vzzbux on 17 August, 2010, 11:46:07 PM
Jim, a few board members have had my dander up a few times and it is good just to leave it be and let them carry on with their pretentious shit as certain personalities cannot be swayed. Just fuck em life is too short to let little pricks eat you up.









V
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Richmond Clements on 18 August, 2010, 08:00:04 AM
Christ, I go away for one weekend...
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Kev Levell on 18 August, 2010, 08:35:54 AM
Jim,
This board needs you. You are one of the pillars that support it.

Cheers!

Kev
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: LARF on 18 August, 2010, 10:09:49 AM
Nice one Jim.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Noisybast on 18 August, 2010, 10:10:23 AM
Seriously? You're leaving because of some 19 post semi-troll? Sort yerself out, man!
If you go, who's going to apply their Nu-Rock encased foot to the back end of trolls and sock-puppets?









Also: Fuck off.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Lady Festina on 18 August, 2010, 10:56:04 AM
My personal tribute to the Great and Legendary Mr Campbell: Five More Reasons Why Opinions Are Like Arseholes:

1. Everyone's got one and assumes it's OK but never really checks to make sure.

2. If someone tries to scrutinise yours, it'll tighten up.

3. It's embarrassing to admit that there might be something wrong with yours.

4. And sometimes we just can't keep them under control....

5. And, of course, the last thing you want is Big Hairy Demi-Goth taking an interest in yours.

Happy sailing, Cap'n Jim. Hope to see you for Beer In Birmingham.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Emperor on 18 August, 2010, 03:14:10 PM
Quote from: Lady Festina on 18 August, 2010, 10:56:04 AM
My personal tribute to the Great and Legendary Mr Campbell: Five More Reasons Why Opinions Are Like Arseholes:

1. Everyone's got one and assumes it's OK but never really checks to make sure.

And we often lose sight of our own and can even forget it exists until it starts annoying other people ;)
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Peter Wolf on 18 August, 2010, 06:07:05 PM
About Jim....

When i joined this board i was out of control and this is very well known.

However it was Jim who helped and as he was very firm but very fair which he didnt have to be and not once was i told to Fuck off or called a C*** or anything else even in jest.

I have to say i am saddened by Jims course of action and this is totally regardless of what Jims opinion of myself may or may not be.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: TordelBack on 18 August, 2010, 06:23:47 PM
Quote from: Peter Wolf on 18 August, 2010, 06:07:05 PM
However it was Jim who helped and as he was very firm but very fair which he didnt have to be and not once was i told to Fuck off or called a C*** or anything else even in jest.

Not to your face, maybe!  Joking, joking.  I do think that PeterWolf's forum-use trajectory is a very good example of what Jim is talking about - PW was insanely prolific and religiously off-topic right out of the gate and wound many people up in the early days, but he was called on it (several times), saw where he was rubbing boarders up the wrong way, and became the lupus familiaris we all have on 'Ignore' today.  Joking again.  Some of that response was way over on the wrong side of the dial from  'Mean', but even so the end result was arguably a win for everyone.  Had everyone treated PW as if he was entitled to his behaviour he may well have ended up permanently banned instead of our number one producer of Bellardinelli landscapes and head conspiracy loon (and this in a forum that includes The Legendary Shark!).

If this sounds as patronising as it does to me reading it back, I sincerely apologise, that wasn't my intention - I'm just using the example PW since he's a self-confessed beneficiary from the 'robust debate' school of forum behaviour.  I'm well aware that my endless beige meanderings are just as off-putting to many boarders as PW's posts ever were.

EDIT:   I particularly remember Peter's drawn response to being challenged on his claimed artistic ability being a revelation - he was asked to support his claims and by Grud he did it.  Same with doggycarrots.  Asking people to substantiate their claims and opinions is a good thing.  
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: chilipenguin on 18 August, 2010, 11:14:50 PM
[vader]Noooooooooooooo![/vader]

I'm just one of the new guys here but Jim has already helped me so much. Don't leave.

If you leave me now/
You take away the biggest part of me/
Dobeedoooooooo baby please don't go...

etc
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Lady Festina on 19 August, 2010, 02:46:29 PM
Quote from: chilipenguin on 18 August, 2010, 11:14:50 PM
If you leave me now/
You take away the biggest part of me/
Dobeedoooooooo baby please don't go...

You realise this may come back to haunt you....??
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Trout on 19 August, 2010, 03:24:09 PM
Jim likes Dancing Queen by Abba. It's his favourite song, ever, in the whole wide world.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: chilipenguin on 19 August, 2010, 03:25:59 PM
Quote from: Lady Festina on 19 August, 2010, 02:46:29 PM
Quote from: chilipenguin on 18 August, 2010, 11:14:50 PM
If you leave me now/
You take away the biggest part of me/
Dobeedoooooooo baby please don't go...

You realise this may come back to haunt you....??

I laugh in the face of fear.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Colin Zeal on 19 August, 2010, 03:27:09 PM
It'll be a real shame if Jim does decide to stay away. I don't know the bloke, but I've always enjoyed his contributions to this forum and he'll be missed.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Lady Festina on 19 August, 2010, 05:37:22 PM
Quote from: King Trout on 19 August, 2010, 03:24:09 PM
Jim likes Dancing Queen by Abba. It's his favourite song, ever, in the whole wide world.

Hey, if he's not reading this, then we can share all sorts of *facts* about him. For example:

Jim used to hold the British record for juggling pickled eggs - seven of them at one time!


Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: TordelBack on 19 August, 2010, 05:53:40 PM
Jim's first real girlfriend left him for Barry Scott!*



(*actor Neil Burgess)
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Tiplodocus on 19 August, 2010, 11:50:18 PM
Don't know Jim physically but his is indeed a welcome presence here.

However he did occassionally resort to unhelpful name calling e.g. on the Stront. thread said something like ' but i still thiink hes being a dick' which, in my opinion, isn't "telling iit like it is" or "cutting through the bs" but is just rude.

This is of course a very minor quibble and the positives far, far outweigh the miniscule negatives so please come back.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Dog Deever on 20 August, 2010, 01:51:13 AM
Mind you Tips, not sure I agree- saying you believe someone to be a dick when they are being a dick isn't rude- it's just telling the truth as you see it. If being called a dick will make someone cry for their mammy, they shouldn't act like dicks. It's hardly brutal and no-one ever died or got ill from being called a dick. Actions have consequences and all too often nowadays people think they can act with impunity. Is it better to pretend to be accepting of behaviour, but call someone a dick behind their back?
There is a rudeness and antisocial element to being an erse- if a body canna afford other people the respect of not being a cockend, then how can they expect to be treated like anything other than a cockend. So fuck 'em.

Act like a fanny- get treated like a fud.
Simples.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Tiplodocus on 20 August, 2010, 01:00:14 PM
True but all of these generic insults don't help nail down the specifics of why you think the person is behhaving poorly. People's definition of what constitues being a dick, a fud or a fanny can vary wildly.  What is key for you, isn't necessarilly key for them,

Saying "X is being a dick" doesn't help anyone. Saying "You've failed to back up a signgle one of your assertions.  You have taken one solitary story and extrapolated that as a template for all others in the series even though, those other stories do not fit that template.  You are asserting that a fans understanding of a story is more important than the creator's vision" all may help.

(TBF, I think you/Jim/everybody probably did say all of those things and the "dick" thing was just a little bit of "oh well, we tried").

It's the same argument we use for critizing the creators; saying "This art is shit" is no good but saying "This art had unclear story telling and ignored the basic rules of anatomy and perspective" could lead the person to improve/change.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Tweak72 on 20 August, 2010, 05:59:03 PM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 20 August, 2010, 01:00:14 PM
True but all of these generic insults don't help nail down the specifics of why you think the person is behhaving poorly. People's definition of what constitues being a dick, a fud or a fanny can vary wildly.  What is key for you, isn't necessarilly key for them,

Saying "X is being a dick" doesn't help anyone. Saying "You've failed to back up a signgle one of your assertions.  You have taken one solitary story and extrapolated that as a template for all others in the series even though, those other stories do not fit that template.  You are asserting that a fans understanding of a story is more important than the creator's vision" all may help.

(TBF, I think you/Jim/everybody probably did say all of those things and the "dick" thing was just a little bit of "oh well, we tried").

It's the same argument we use for critizing the creators; saying "This art is shit" is no good but saying "This art had unclear story telling and ignored the basic rules of anatomy and perspective" could lead the person to improve/change.

What Tip said.

If you get to an impasse then stop arguing. you may have a million valid points but if some one does not agree with them because they see it a different way then leave it there. attempting to bend someone to your POV archives nothing.

Calling people names because your being matey and its a laugh and is amusing for all involved and ok.

But calling people names because they don't agree is rude. this is especially true if one is stating that forums are places of discussion and debate because there are rules for discussion and debate which turn it in to an art form and unless you are trying to follow those rules your just arguing badly or even bullying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: TordelBack on 20 August, 2010, 06:18:52 PM
Quote from: Tweak72 on 20 August, 2010, 05:59:03 PM
But calling people names because they don't agree is rude. this is especially true if one is stating that forums are places of discussion and debate because there are rules for discussion and debate which turn it in to an art form and unless you are trying to follow those rules your just arguing badly or even bullying.

Yeah, but after you're done with the attempts at rational discourse, calling a dick a dick is sometimes necessary too.  It's seldom about disagreement, which implies some sort of coherent but opposed position, it's usually about gross ignorance.  I'm all for politeness, it's essential to a pleasant society, but carte blanche to continue being a knob is taking it too far.  As some Burke once said, all that is necessary for dickery to triumph is that cranky goths do nothing.    And exposing a dick is fun.*




(*note: may be illegal in several jurisdicktions).
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Tweak72 on 20 August, 2010, 06:47:44 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 20 August, 2010, 06:18:52 PM
Quote from: Tweak72 on 20 August, 2010, 05:59:03 PM
But calling people names because they don't agree is rude. this is especially true if one is stating that forums are places of discussion and debate because there are rules for discussion and debate which turn it in to an art form and unless you are trying to follow those rules your just arguing badly or even bullying.

Yeah, but after you're done with the attempts at rational discourse, calling a dick a dick is sometimes necessary too.  It's seldom about disagreement, which implies some sort of coherent but opposed position, it's usually about gross ignorance.  I'm all for politeness, it's essential to a pleasant society, but carte blanche to continue being a knob is taking it too far.  As some Burke once said, all that is necessary for dickery to triumph is that cranky goths do nothing.    And exposing a dick is fun.*
(*note: may be illegal in several jurisdicktions).

If I call some one a name like a dick (barring my closest friends) then I am being rude. I take the responsibility for my actions by admitting that fact and either apologizing or stating that I do not care and further stating they can Foxtrot Oscar See You Next Tuesday. I would not pretend I was engaged in debate or discussion so its OK.

I am not saying that I have not made mistakes myself, sometimes on this board, but I have learnt from them and attempted to modify my behavior accordingly. And I certainly do not hide behind excuses such as I used to post online back in the day when things where different so it is ok. That is shirking responsibility for your own actions which is poor behavior online or off line.

Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Dog Deever on 20 August, 2010, 06:52:31 PM
Jim did actually use a very similar train of argument across several posts, though- check back and you'll see. I also trawled all through that thread and can't find any post by Jim calling the guy a dick, or 'being rude'. So I really don't see what the fuss is about. And even if he had- sometimes arses need kicked (because some people are dicks), and someone has to kick them.

I'm not surprised he's left as he's been accused of bullying and now calling someone a dick on the stront thread, AND NONE OF IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

Wise up people, good folk (who have contributed more to the board than many of us added together) are being driven away by petty, hand-wringing bullshit perpetrated by posters who have contributed very little except 'discussion' which involves them being right and everyone else being wrong, regardless of what is actually being said (not you Tips, obviously :)).
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Tweak72 on 20 August, 2010, 07:08:07 PM
Quote from: Dog Deever on 20 August, 2010, 06:52:31 PM
Jim did actually use a very similar train of argument across several posts, though- check back and you'll see. I also trawled all through that thread and can't find any post by Jim calling the guy a dick, or 'being rude'. So I really don't see what the fuss is about. And even if he had- sometimes arses need kicked (because some people are dicks), and someone has to kick them.

I'm not surprised he's left as he's been accused of bullying and now calling someone a dick on the stront thread, AND NONE OF IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.


You missed this then

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 11 August, 2010, 02:12:31 PM
Hmf. As ever, you prove yourself a better man than I, TB.

Cheers

Jim

(But I still think he was being a dick.)


Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: TordelBack on 20 August, 2010, 07:12:40 PM
In the interests of full dicksclosure, there was also this from Jim, regarding Fatboydale's unwanted Tharg:

QuoteDon't want to get called a petulant twat? Don't act like one.

And here's the thing:  I don't think either of those comments were unwarranted.  It's not language I'd generally use myself on the forum (although I have), except (as Tweak puts it) in the interests of being matey, but I still think it's fair comment.  Walking on eggshells is a pretty irritating way to spend your comics-discussin' leisure time.  
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Dog Deever on 20 August, 2010, 07:13:27 PM
There is a difference between saying someone is a dick and saying someone is being a dick.

If you really, honestly believe that saying someone is being a dick once constitutes bullying then I'm afraid I'm in danger of saying 'don't be a dick'. And citing wikipedia as a set of rules for debate and discussion is laughable, you could have written that yourself 10 minutes ago. And who sets these rules for debate? I didn't sign up to it.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Tweak72 on 20 August, 2010, 08:52:30 PM
Quote from: Dog Deever on 20 August, 2010, 07:13:27 PM
There is a difference between saying someone is a dick and saying someone is being a dick.

If you really, honestly believe that saying someone is being a dick once constitutes bullying then I'm afraid I'm in danger of saying 'don't be a dick'. And citing wikipedia as a set of rules for debate and discussion is laughable, you could have written that yourself 10 minutes ago. And who sets these rules for debate? I didn't sign up to it.

:o

You do understand how wiki or in fact any encyclopedia works, right?

Any and all articulates should have citations and/or references. Those citations/references should point to your sources or evidence. If you have done a degree and completed a dissertation you have to do the same thing: show who and where you are quoting or citing and also list all references to back up any other points you have made.

Though I do not hold a degree and have never attempted to try, i understand this.

This would therefore be how you spot some one who quickly edited wiki, by checking the sources cited on the page. if there are "citations needed" then those points should be taken with a liberal pinch of salt. If you had taken the time to use the links at the bottom of the wiki page you could have found out more about the general rules of formal debate and how people approach it  

but if you need further clarification here is a starting point link to the Oxford Union,
http://www.oxford-union.org/debates/formal_debates

who are a long standing debating society (Founded in 1823) and like many societies the world over, which, as I mentioned happen to be cited at the bottom of the wiki debate page, have strict rules for formal debate most of which bare a very close similarity and differentiate an argument from a discussion or debate. but I will let you do all the donkey work to disprove that.

http://www.oxford-union.org/__data/assets/pdf_file/0014/3074/Definitive_Rules_TT10_3.pdf
Rule 39(b)i which states

"(i) No expressions of a personal or offensive nature may be used at any meeting of the Society. The Chair may
call on any Member to explain any expression he has used; such explanation shall be received without question
as to the speaker's intention, but if unsatisfied the Chair may call on the Member concerned to withdraw and/or
apologize, and the Member concerned shall immediately and without question submit to the authority of the
Chair."

so there is just one example of what you are not supposed to do if you are discussing or debating. unless you think I made up all those websites as well as editing the wiki page

and on bullying, definition taken from taken from Cambridgeshire County Council website

http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/education/parents/welfare/Bullying/whatisbullying.htm

"Types of bullying

There are various types of bullying, but most have three things in common:
1. It is deliberately hurtful behaviour.
2. It is repeated over time.
3. There is an imbalance of power, which makes it hard for those being bullied to defend themselves."

calling people offensive names or using offensive similes can be and is classed as "deliberately hurtful behavior" and is one of the basic tools of bullying.

To quote Michael Franti

"But dehumanizing the victim makes things simpler
It's like breathing with a respirator
It eases the conscience of even the most conscious
and calculating violator
Words can reduce a person to an object,
something more easy to hate
An inanimate entity, completely disposable,
no problem to obliterate"

And this is one of the main reasons civil discussion and debate has strict rules of conduct. And why anything else is just an argument.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: TordelBack on 20 August, 2010, 09:18:01 PM
Woah there Tweak old man.  I've spent an unhealthy amount of time dealing formally (as an employer) with bullying in the workplace, and have seen my wife subjected to it in hers.  I am painfully familiar with legal and practical definitions of bullying, and I can honestly not recognise bullying in any of the examples we're discussing here. Real bullying is something quite horrid to behold, and comparing telling someone on the internet (who is acting like a dick) that they're acting like a dick to actual bullying is way wide of the mark.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Dog Deever on 20 August, 2010, 09:32:46 PM
QuoteYou do understand how wiki or in fact any encyclopedia works, right? ....
Though I do not hold a degree and have never attempted to try, i understand this.

:o
Passive aggressive abuse- trying to sneakily call me stupid. This is pretty offensive stuff, stop bullying me.
:'( :'( :'(
Sob sob, where's my mammy or a mod.
( ;))

but seriously though

Quote2. It is repeated over time.

my point exactly. Once instance doesn't equal bullying. Bullying is sustained. Saying someone is being a dick implies that it isn't always the case, only 'in this instance'. Saying someone is a dick implies they are always a dick.

And no, I don't take wikipedia as the be all and all of facts. Nor does any academic establishment, regardless of how much wiki fans defend it.

And yes, I understand many things. You do understand that this isn't a debating society right? It is an informal forum about the 2000ad comic, and we don't necessarily have to conform to your (or the debating societies) idea of how things should be discussed.

I think you have just proved that Jim wasn't 'bullying', though you may think he was being rude. As others have pointed out- it wasn't entirely undeserved, which raises the question- is it rude if it was deserved? The fact that no one was pulled up by mods for it would suggest it isn't perceived as such by those who have the power to judge these things.

Anyway- I'd rather have one poster worthy of respect here than 10 dicks who contribute fuck all but pouting, sulking and sounding off about offence and bullying whenever their opinion is challenged.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Old Tankie on 20 August, 2010, 10:09:48 PM
I really don't get this forum lark, and I'll quite happily admit to being a "grumpy old man", but, tell me, how the hell can an adult be "bullied" on a comics forum?  I've had a few ding-dongs on here myself in the past with fellow board members.  I think I've exchanged pleasantries with TB and DD, amongst others, but I've never taken offence and have always enjoyed the banter.  How can an adult be intimidated by someone they don't know, never met, never likely to meet, nameless and faceless, and who knows nothing about them??  I'm perplexed but then, as I said before, I am a grumpy old man and, to me, an internet forum is not the real world!!
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Peter Wolf on 20 August, 2010, 10:35:28 PM
Quote from: Old Tankie on 20 August, 2010, 10:09:48 PM
I really don't get this forum lark, and I'll quite happily admit to being a "grumpy old man", but, tell me, how the hell can an adult be "bullied" on a comics forum?  I've had a few ding-dongs on here myself in the past with fellow board members.  I think I've exchanged pleasantries with TB and DD, amongst others, but I've never taken offence and have always enjoyed the banter.  How can an adult be intimidated by someone they don't know, never met, never likely to meet, nameless and faceless, and who knows nothing about them??  I'm perplexed but then, as I said before, I am a grumpy old man and, to me, an internet forum is not the real world!!

If you are new to the internet and online debate/arguing it can be quite disconcerting especially if it gets unpleasent.I found this myself when arguing with some on this forum or one or two in particular and on other forums but obviously since then i have been around the block a few times so things have changed a bit since then.

I can imagine how some wet behind the ears 20 year old kid might feel when they realise that they are totally out of their depth especially as has been pointed out earlier they are not used to being challenged about their opinions.There are a lot of dumbed down kids out there and intelligence and aggressive debate could be quite intimidating to them especially since they wouldnt have learnt debating/arguing skills at school or University.

Its something that you can only learn the hard way but you wont get very far if you are a bit precious and delicate.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Van Dom on 20 August, 2010, 10:41:34 PM
Yikes. Just catching up on some threads that I wasn't able to look at during the week. Bad times here.
Jiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :'(
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Tweak72 on 20 August, 2010, 10:50:45 PM
Quote from: Dog Deever on 20 August, 2010, 09:32:46 PM
QuoteYou do understand how wiki or in fact any encyclopedia works, right? ....
Though I do not hold a degree and have never attempted to try, i understand this.

:o
Passive aggressive abuse- trying to sneakily call me stupid. This is pretty offensive stuff, stop bullying me.
:'( :'( :'(
Sob sob, where's my mammy or a mod.
( ;))


LoL

Quote from: Dog Deever on 20 August, 2010, 09:32:46 PM
Quote2. It is repeated over time.

my point exactly. Once instance doesn't equal bullying. Bullying is sustained. Saying someone is being a dick implies that it isn't always the case, only 'in this instance'. Saying someone is a dick implies they are always a dick.

TBH yes it does. Once or many times such name calling can be considered an act of bullying the article I quoted says "There are various types of bullying, but most have three things in common" and then lists those three things but that does not limit the definition of bullying behavior. I know this because I am a Union Rep and have had to deal with cases that involve bullying. from individuals to groups of people and even if you only do it once you still have done it.

Quote from: Dog Deever on 20 August, 2010, 09:32:46 PM
QuoteAnd no, I don't take wikipedia as the be all and all of facts. Nor does any academic establishment, regardless of how much wiki fans defend it.

and you are quite right to not use it as the only source of information Even the Encyclopedia Britannica has mistakes and incorrect information because information changes over time. however accusing me of editing the page out of hand for the benefit of making my point , with no proof I might add, was IMO a bit off. If you where being flippant then i missed the humor.

Quote from: Dog Deever on 20 August, 2010, 09:32:46 PM
QuoteAnd yes, I understand many things. You do understand that this isn't a debating society right? It is an informal forum about the 2000ad comic, and we don't necessarily have to conform to your (or the debating societies) idea of how things should be discussed.

as I said, my response was due to the insinuation that I had edited the Wiki page.

And yes, I do understand that this is not a debating society. My point was if some one states that they are engaged in discussion, testing opinions and reasoning on a discussion forum then they should know that however vigorous the discussion then making inflammatory statements is to walk a very fine line. making the simile to male genitalia is well over that line.

If Jim needs to take a time out, fine. That is an very adult thing to do.

But perhaps he should of taken a quiet step back rather than making a grandiose announcement about being here less. Just a thought.

Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: M.I.K. on 20 August, 2010, 10:59:19 PM
Quote from: Tweak72 on 20 August, 2010, 08:52:30 PM
There are various types of bullying, but most have three things in common:
1. It is deliberately hurtful behaviour.
2. It is repeated over time.
3. There is an imbalance of power, which makes it hard for those being bullied to defend themselves."

Which is pretty much how I defined it on the first page of this thread, (except for the hurtful behaviour bit which is really obvious). Generally speaking you'd need all three things to class it as bullying. It's only an argument/fight otherwise.

It's impossible to have an imbalance of power between two people arguing on an internet forum unless one's a moderator or something.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Tiplodocus on 20 August, 2010, 11:54:49 PM
Oh I definitely don't think Jim was bullying just being a bit rude (as I've said probably exasperated). But I don't think there's any need to walk on eggshells. If you thought somebdy was displaying "gross ignorance" then why not use those words. Why say "acting like a dick".

(I do realise this is rich coming from someone who just called his boss a 'syphlitic old whore'. Good job I'd had my Performance Appraisal before we went to the pub.)
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Dog Deever on 21 August, 2010, 12:42:41 AM
Quoteas I said, my response was due to the insinuation that I had edited the Wiki page.

Aw c'mon Tweak man, there was no insinuation- I didn't allude to anything, I said it plain and simple.
Of course I don't believe you typed that essay up 10 minutes before posting (and I don't believe for a minute that you thought that's what I was saying). It was a tongue in cheek comment on the fact that anyone can make/ edit a wiki entry and you cannot compare Wikipedia to an real encyclopaedia, which is why it is not an acceptable reference in academia. Sure I was oversimplifying and being a bit daft, but only to make a point, and I think it was fairly obvious that I wasn't being totally serious. Besides, I don't hide behind insinuation- I say it as I see it and I'm not afraid to say what I think, nor do a give a shit what anyone thinks of me for doing it. If you don't like me or my posts, stick me on the ignore, I'll live and won't notice anyway.

Define 'hurtful'.
It's subjective.
Just because some idiot playacts being offended specifically to get someone into trouble doesn't really mean they have been bullied. I made my protest at your passive-aggressive post in jest (and it was an insinuation that I was stupid- it can't really be taken any other way), but seriously- you just perpetrated what you have spoken out against, that's hypocrisy plain and simple - I didn't take offence because I'm not a moron, but I was attempting to illustrate how easy it was to claim bullying- another guy could have called you for it and under YOUR OWN DEFINITION they would have been right- so think about that.

I work in education with kids that folk consider delinquents and also work with prisoners. Like TB, I see real bullying in real life more than you've had hot dinners- and it is far and away different from someone saying they think 'x' is a dick. Honestly, this is whining, panty-waist shit. Just because some arse writes their definition doesn't make it correct- talk to someone who has been properly bullied to find out what real bullying is.

Seeing as we are discussing the whole affair in the open like adults, I wasn't going to say this to keep the peace, but I feel like I need to for my own sanity, so here goes...

What is really getting my dander up is the fact that some people are lining up to have a kick at Jim now he's gone, and yet none of you had the balls to tackle him mano-a-mano while he was here to defend his position.
I'm finding this distasteful as fuck, not to mention cuntery of the worst kind- it's just cowardice plain and simple. People seem to be getting on their moral high horses about it, but their principles were oh so important that they didn't tackle him about their perception of him being a bully when he was here.
Why not?

My suspicion is that there was a fear of getting their arses handed on a plate because it's bullshit and they know it. It's despicable, and in all seriousness I mean it. If they hadn't the testicular fortitude to say it to the man, then they don't have any moral right to whine about it now. IMO- put up at the time, or shut up entirely.
I would imagine that even if he was thinking about changing his mind, he certainly won't now that the woodlice have crawled out of the woodwork to kick him when he isn't looking.

I thought this was a great place full of good people, but I'm certainly going to have to revise my view of that. If anyone feels I'm having a go at them personally, I probably am- If the cap fits then pop it on at a jaunty angle. If this upsets anyone or causes any offence- bite me, I couldn't give a shit.

And no- I'm not defending a mate, I don't know Jim at all, I've barely had a conversation with the guy since I joined up years ago and until this new version of the board came into being (where you can see if anyone is ignoring you) I assumed that he had me on the old 'killfile' for this very reason- so in the back of my mind, I was always a bit suspicious that there was no love for me with him. I would defend any one of the people who have earned my respect here just as vigorously because I believe what is going on now is just plain wrong, and all because of some mewling and puking from dicks who can't handle their public opinions being questioned.

Frankly, I'm extremely disappointed.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Roger Godpleton on 21 August, 2010, 01:13:52 AM
Sorry to get all paranoid DD, but you don't mean me, do you?
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Woolly on 21 August, 2010, 02:22:04 AM
This thread is starting to turn into the very reason why Jim has left!

Heres how i see this board...
It's like being in a pub with the mates i wish i had. People i can talk to (or just listen to) about Tooth and comics in general.

Things will be said that i dont agree with, but it doesnt matter.. because were in a pub, and chances are we've had a few drinks already.
No matter whats said, i fuckin love you guys, and a difference of opinion or a strongly felt argument only strengthens my love for you all: i feel i get to know you all better from your statements.

Personal offence should never be taken from these hallowed pages! Were all adults here (with the possible exception of the 'God of drawing' guy) and if we just think before posting then situations such as this can easily be avoided.*

I dunno what i'm really trying to say here, i just love 2000AD with all my heart, and i love this board with all my heart, and i love you - the boarders - with all my heart! Threads like this depress me  :(

Just... think before you post, eh?




*Admittedly, i am drunk. And not thinking before i post! I feel no shame in my hipocrisy!  :D
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Peter Wolf on 21 August, 2010, 02:28:32 AM
Quote from: Dog Deever on 21 August, 2010, 12:42:41 AM


What is really getting my dander up is the fact that some people are lining up to have a kick at Jim now he's gone, and yet none of you had the balls to tackle him mano-a-mano while he was here to defend his position.
I'm finding this distasteful as fuck, not to mention cuntery of the worst kind- it's just cowardice plain and simple. People seem to be getting on their moral high horses about it, but their principles were oh so important that they didn't tackle him about their perception of him being a bully when he was here.
Why not?

My suspicion is that there was a fear of getting their arses handed on a plate because it's bullshit and they know it. It's despicable, and in all seriousness I mean it. If they hadn't the testicular fortitude to say it to the man, then they don't have any moral right to whine about it now. IMO- put up at the time, or shut up entirely.
I would imagine that even if he was thinking about changing his mind, he certainly won't now that the woodlice have crawled out of the woodwork to kick him when he isn't looking.

I thought this was a great place full of good people, but I'm certainly going to have to revise my view of that. If anyone feels I'm having a go at them personally, I probably am- If the cap fits then pop it on at a jaunty angle. If this upsets anyone or causes any offence- bite me, I couldn't give a shit.

And no- I'm not defending a mate, I don't know Jim at all, I've barely had a conversation with the guy since I joined up years ago and until this new version of the board came into being (where you can see if anyone is ignoring you) I assumed that he had me on the old 'killfile' for this very reason- so in the back of my mind, I was always a bit suspicious that there was no love for me with him. I would defend any one of the people who have earned my respect here just as vigorously because I believe what is going on now is just plain wrong, and all because of some mewling and puking from dicks who can't handle their public opinions being questioned.

Frankly, I'm extremely disappointed.

I might as well say what i think.

DD:I have agreed with your opinion here as its pretty much the same as mine on the subject of what defines bullying and all the rest of it.

I think everyone should STFU talking about Jim now that he is no longer present and by this i mean the whys and wherefores of Jim calling someone a Dick because its not the right thing to do and its beginning to cause more unrest and bad feeling and i can only see it getting worse like it already is before it gets any better for anyone.Damage limitation.

Thats what i think.




Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: TordelBack on 21 August, 2010, 07:55:23 AM
Peter's not wrong.  I think everything of value has been said, and now we're just bickering.  I for one will shut up.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Wake on 21 August, 2010, 08:25:43 AM
Quote from: M.I.K. on 20 August, 2010, 10:59:19 PMIt's impossible to have an imbalance of power between two people arguing on an internet forum unless one's a moderator or something.

I disagree on this point. Someone with lots of posts is perceived in a different light from a newbie, and the newbie may assume that the other poster has the support from other boarders. It's exactly the same as the way a pub regular may seem to have more power than someone new, except that it's even more obvious who is new and who has been here for years.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Noisybast on 21 August, 2010, 11:16:51 AM
Quote from: Wake on 21 August, 2010, 08:25:43 AM
...it's even more obvious who is new and who has been here for years.

Not in my local. I wear a t-shirt that shows how many pints I've ever drank there. :)
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Tweak72 on 21 August, 2010, 11:31:59 AM
Dog: if you where being tongue in cheek about the Wiki page then it was not obvious. If I misinterpreted it I apologies but you didn't make it obvious. What did come across was you accusing me of altering something to benefit myself and my point of view.

I am not being passive aggressive. Calling some one a name during an argument and then saying it is part of  discussion and debate, that's passive aggressive.

come to think of it accusing some one of altering a wiki page and then saying its a was a joke, i]that's[/i] passive aggressive as well.

And the thing is people aren't lining up to kick Jim. Most people either agree with his conduct, or think that he possible said something a bit silly when wound up and ended up being a bit rude.

And I do not need to talk to some one who has experienced real bullying. I am someone who has experienced real bullying on a daily basis for most of my school life. And for at one time I was a bully.

And during the thread at the time i did say some thing

"However, James E is just pointing out another POV. One in which is not quite so pleased with how the way in which the ret con is going. If you dont agree thats fine but at least respect the fact that there are other POVs rather than trying to bully him in to submission."



Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: vzzbux on 21 August, 2010, 12:05:51 PM
The problem with forums is that people generally think they can get away with behaviour that they wouldn't normally do or say in the outside world.
Some shy and retiring folk can be the most malicious when chatting over the internet and think they can get away with hiding behind the computer.
I personally have confronted a few trolls on facebook and let them know that there is a chance that we might at some point come face to face in the future. Trust me that works a treat.





V
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 21 August, 2010, 12:06:24 PM
Quote from: Tweak72 on 21 August, 2010, 11:31:59 AM
Most people either agree with his conduct, or think that he possible said something a bit silly when wound up and ended up being a bit rude.

[spoiler]Oh, do fuck off, you patronising little cunt. [/spoiler]

You're just sore because I spanked you when posted your "humorous", but factually incorrect crack about iPods erasing people's music collections, and again when you attempted to deny casting yourself as superior to "the herd" of "iSheep" on the Apple Tablet thread, only to be somewhat undermined by your own fucking words, causing you to retreat behind accusations of bullying, rather than just man up when caught in a flat-out lie.

I can't believe I unignored you just to read that mewling pile of limp-wristed shite, you intellectual pygmy.

QuoteAnd I certainly do not hide behind excuses such as I used to post online back in the day when things where different so it is ok. That is shirking responsibility for your own actions which is poor behavior online or off line.

And yet you seem unable to recognize that this is precisely what I am doing -- I recognize that my behaviour is out of step with a substantial chunk of this forum, who are either in the majority, or vocal enough to make me feel like they're in the majority, so I am voluntarily withdrawing from the forum, for the most part, or I would be in the ridiculous situation of having more people on ignore than not.

To clarify for everyone else: note that my original post said that I would be spending less time on here -- I still need to check in regularly to monitor the art comp, and I will endeavour to make a positive contribution to threads where I can speak with some authority, like lettering, or comic/magazine production, or about stuff like Manga Studio, that I'm putting a lot of effort into learning.

More subjective debates can now have intellectually lazy, unsubstantiated or baseless crap posted to them without fear of intervention from me.

Thank you and good night.

Jim
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Kerrin on 21 August, 2010, 12:08:51 PM
I knew the Truffle Shuffle would work.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: nev on 21 August, 2010, 12:20:07 PM
I fucking love you Jim.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: M.I.K. on 21 August, 2010, 01:12:21 PM
Quote from: Wake on 21 August, 2010, 08:25:43 AM
Quote from: M.I.K. on 20 August, 2010, 10:59:19 PMIt's impossible to have an imbalance of power between two people arguing on an internet forum unless one's a moderator or something.

I disagree on this point. Someone with lots of posts is perceived in a different light from a newbie, and the newbie may assume that the other poster has the support from other boarders. It's exactly the same as the way a pub regular may seem to have more power than someone new, except that it's even more obvious who is new and who has been here for years.

The amount of time someone's been around isn't something that would make any difference to me personally, but I concede your point.

I bow down before your superior knowledge of such things, oh wise and powerful one.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Dog Deever on 21 August, 2010, 01:28:07 PM
Quote from: Tweak72 on 21 August, 2010, 11:31:59 AM
Dog: if you where being tongue in cheek about the Wiki page then it was not obvious... What did come across was you accusing me of altering something to benefit myself and my point of view.

Bullshit- I said you 'could have', not 'you did' there is no accusation there so don't try to twist it. Any fucking moron can see that.

QuoteI am not being passive aggressive.

Bullshit- your snidey comment tried to imply that I was stupid, but you didn't have the balls to say it directly. By your own definition you tried a bullying tactic, you've lost the moral high ground you attempted to take, which makes you a hypocrite, so shut the fuck up.

QuoteCalling some one a name during an argument and then saying it is part of  discussion and debate, that's passive aggressive.

No it isn't- direct confrontation is aggressive, there is nothing passive about it.

Quotecome to think of it accusing some one of altering a wiki page and then saying its a was a joke, i]that's[/i] passive aggressive as well.

True, but I didn't accuse you, so fuck off.

QuoteAnd the thing is people aren't lining up to kick Jim. Most people either agree with his conduct, or think that he possible said something a bit silly when wound up and ended up being a bit rude.

You accused him of bullying and waved wiki definitions and cited quotes to back up your pathetic claim. After you thought he was gone.

QuoteAnd I do not need to talk to some one who has experienced real bullying. I am someone who has experienced real bullying on a daily basis for most of my school life.

Did the big boys call you a dick? I'm not surprised- my heart bleeds for you.

QuoteAnd for at one time I was a bully.

Did you call them a 'stinky poo' back?
And your snide comment to try to paint me as stupid was bullying by your own definition, so you're still a bully (by your definition).

QuoteAnd during the thread at the time i did say some thing

"However, James E is just pointing out another POV. One in which is not quite so pleased with how the way in which the ret con is going. If you dont agree thats fine but at least respect the fact that there are other POVs rather than trying to bully him in to submission."

Fair enough- others didn't, but did you report his 'bullying'? No- because you know you're talking shit.

All you are doing is revealing yourself as pond life.
And yes, I am rude- I never made any claim not to be.
Fuck off you dick.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Trout on 21 August, 2010, 02:10:11 PM
Why are you all arguing? You pack of idiots.

How about you stop now?

- Trout
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 21 August, 2010, 02:20:41 PM
Trout speaks truly.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: eggonlegs on 21 August, 2010, 02:54:07 PM
Quote from: King Trout on 21 August, 2010, 02:10:11 PM
Why are you all arguing? You pack of idiots.

How about you stop now?

- Trout

s'right
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: JOE SOAP on 21 August, 2010, 03:08:27 PM
This has turned into the most boring thread in the forum's history. Congratulations.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Something Fishy on 21 August, 2010, 03:31:08 PM
Quote from: King Trout on 21 August, 2010, 02:10:11 PM
Why are you all arguing? You pack of idiots.

How about you stop now?

- Trout
what the King say goes.  

So come on guys.. peace!   If any forum can rise above this stuff it's this one, the nicest forum on the net.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: BPP on 22 August, 2010, 07:47:18 PM
interweb flounce-offs are funneh.


'cheers'
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Jared Katooie on 22 August, 2010, 08:22:17 PM
It's just like the old days.

:)
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Emperor on 23 August, 2010, 12:06:46 AM
Quote from: King Trout on 21 August, 2010, 02:10:11 PM
Why are you all arguing? You pack of idiots.

I have a horrible suspicion folks are now arguing about arguing. It'd all be terribly post-modern if there was any irony intended.

Quote from: King Trout on 21 August, 2010, 02:10:11 PMHow about you stop now?

No, you stop first!!! ;)
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Roger Godpleton on 23 August, 2010, 12:25:37 AM
Many of you owe me things. You are not aware of what is required for me to deliver the services that you have come to expect like a teat.

For anything you require you have to recognize that there are things at work that you cannot hope to comprehend with your western intellects. Avicenna once remarked in his own eminations a whole bunch of things that you should not expect me to explain because you trust me for being smart.

I'm on it.

I'm on it.
Title: Re: Opinions are like arseholes…
Post by: Hoagy on 23 August, 2010, 12:26:55 AM
Quotes from tonight's films.

Gary Jonston of Team America;

QuotePussies don't like dicks coz they're always fucking pussies. Then there are assholes and assholes shit over everything. So its okay to be a dick. Because they fuck assholes aswell. If they didn't Pussies and dicks would be covered in shit.

...And from Merlin, Excalibur;

QuoteRemember, there is always something cleverer than yourself.

Worldly wisdoms I think you'd all agree.