New Poll: Should Slaine's latest series be his last?

[El Spurioso]

Um...no?  I mean, obviously you'd need to ask Steve if he based the character's look on ayone in particular, but I don't think the Falkster was one of the refs I mentioned.

Saw the Princess Bride again the other day.  Grrreat film.

[buserian]

Ah, that's the whole problem with references - miss the ones that are, see the ones that aren't.

Cheers,
Graham

[Oddboy]

Lots of juicy stuff here - I'll comment on some of it:

between progs 699-850 and 1199-1322 when the prog was Slaine free...2 of the shittest periods in its history!

Facts & figures - I like these! check out http://homepage.ntlworld.com/kathan/prog534/glance/glance.htm" TARGET="_blank">2000AD at a glance for easy visual reference!

Curious to start at 699 rather than 700 as a 'period' - the only difference between 698 ("good" period) and 699 ("bad" period) is Sl?ine ended & was replaced for one week with a Future Shock.
Okay, you could easily argue that Sl?ine was keeping the prog above the 'shite' level (as was Necropolis, running at the same time, which finished in 699.
However - Not even The Horned God III & Necropolis can hold against Chronos Carnival 2, "New" Harlem Heroes and Dry Run. The "bad" period started before Sl?ine had finished!

Likewise - the return of Sl?ine doesn't mark a new era of greatness at prog 850 - Unless you're a fan of Mean Arena 3 or Strontium Dogs' The Darkest Star.


"Slaines still one of the most popular characters in the profiles section.."
Which isn't an accurate show of current opinion on Sl?ine - people are voting for his entire 'career' - rather then his current stories.
Looking at the individual story votes - it's all 7s & 8s up until prog 958's Lord of Misrule - when it goes down to 6s & 7s.
Then prog 1183's Secret Commonwealth gets a 4.4
The current Invasions books are back to 6s and 7s.
So his character vote score of 8.37 is clearly taking a bias to those early series. People (voting here, at least) *don't* like him as much as they used to - but it's not at the depths that was Commonwealth.

And over to Buserian's comments:
Has any other writer ever been criticised for such a reference? Or just Pat Mills?
A) Yes - Si Spurrier's for example has had plenty of criticism for all the Bec & Kawl pop-culture references
B) but that's not really the point. It's not the reference people were complaining about - but the continual portrayal of women as evil that crops up regularly in most of Pat Mills' scripts (whether this is a fair criticism or not is a seperate matter for debate, and *boy* has it been debated several times previously)

So, I'm going to stick to "ignorant" as a pretty fair description of the treatment Pat Mills receives from certain vocal fans.
I'd argue it was quite the opposite: the treatment that Mills gets is due to continual and repetitive themes that run throughout *all* his work - and especially in "Sl?ine".
Also: his earlier work is totally adored by pretty much all 2000AD fans. As such - when people critique Mills, they do so knowing what highs he is capable of.
Mills isn't getting special treatment because names went into a hat & he was chosen by a secret cabel of internet 2k fans to be given a hard time! It's just that a lot of people have, over the years, come to the same opinions of his work and are now discussing them.


The difference between the sexism in Sl?ine & Caballistics, Inc. - well on the basis of reading just that one prog, there's no real difference.
The difference comes with the past - Rennie hasn't forced loads of characters he's done with comments like that. Not memorably, anyway.
Mills has. If it was just Sl?ine MacRoth, there wouldn't be the 'uproar' - that would just be Sl?ine's character. But the story backs it up, the women in the stories *are* all evil. And also across other non-Sl?ine stories.
It's repetitive - and as such it has become highly noticable. So it gets commented on. And it gets commented on often, because it crops up in the comic so often.

[Trout]

I'm not a fan of Slaine and would be happy to see it end, but if it brings in readers I'm not going to condemn it. The art's nice.

This sort of thread always makes me groan.
I can hear it now...

"Unrepresentative minority... vocal internet geeks... what do they know...?" and so on.

I've voted "yes" in the poll, but of course I don't expect the demands of the majority of those who voted will be followed.

Yes, the Princess Bride is fantastic!

- Trout

[Max Kon]

'Mills isn't getting special treatment because names went into a hat & he was chosen by a secret cabel of internet 2k fans to be given a hard time!'

Max put away his hat and hopes no one notices

But seriously. It is Mills' 'preachy' style that I don't like. It used to be one panel every few episodes (which enough to produce a groan in me and a shaking of the head while say 'Mills, Mills, Mills), but now it takes up most of the story.

[Trout]

I don't like the way the story is unreadable. I really try to read it, but I can't.

I have no interest in it at all, but when I want to give it a chance, I find myself blinking at the page, with no clear idea of what's going on.

However, from what I can gather, it's the same sort of thing that's been happening in Slaine on a short cycle for the last 15 years.

- Trout

[buserian]

It's not the reference people were complaining about - but the continual portrayal of women as evil that crops up regularly in most of Pat Mills' scripts

"Time to boil the bunny" is anachronistic because Pat Mills portrays women as evil. Uh-huh.

the women in the stories *are* all evil.

Except, of course, all the women who aren't. Not quite sure how Niamh or Nest, for instance, count as "evil".

I think this probably makes my point as well as its ever going to be made. Its been fun.

[Dudley]

Well, having been accused of ignorance, I can hardly stay away, I guess.  (And by the way, that's a new low, even for the small tight internet group of Pat Mills fanboys who seem to unite to try suppressing any discussion of this subject).  ;)

To be quite clear, it is NOT, repeat NOT, the anachronism that's being objected to.  That's something you've added.  Personally, I love the pop-culture refs in "Bec & Kawl", and relish stuff like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen where anachronisms abound.  It's the use of a misogynist cliche, taken in conjunction with all the other stuff people have mentioned above, that make Mills' latest scripts seem like a "How to Dislike Women" weekly.

Not all the women in Mills' current run of scripts are evil.  There are also passive types who sit around while the men explain everything to them and are invariably wrong.  And some rare strong women who stand up for themselves (who then get raped).  Compare and contrast to Hannah Chapter, for example.

Now, buserian, are you going to apologise for calling me "ignorant" when I pointed out something that you didn't understand?

[Krustabi]

I think it's already been pointed out numerous times that there are a not insignificant number of Slaine fans who read Tooth only for Slaine.

The new stories started okay, I quite liked the second book, but the rot started to set in as soon as Book 3 started off consisting of little more than Slaine and chums battling a nefarious evil person who is more evil and nefarious than the previous episode, before tailing off into a series of wholly uninteresting events, including the god-awful anal/oral sex confusion moment, and the line "Or the Fish gets it". The new book started off okay, but went downhill in a similarily short space of time.

I have no problem with Mills writing more Slaine, it's just that I don't want to read him. he can do WAY better.

[buserian]

No apology owed, even assuming it was you I was originally referring to. "Misogynist cliche", "Pat Mills fan boy" and "how to hate women weekly" all qualify as more than ignorant, as does your  original "one line reference == women hating tripe". If you don't like Slaine, fair enough. But if you can't find the strong female characters in a plotline centring on a priestess defending a goddess temple from magical attack by another woman, that ain't my fault, nor is it Pat Mill's. Same goes for not noticing the pretty horrific tortures visited on many of the male characters, or the many flaws depicted in their characters.

At the end of the day you can "prove" the writer of any series is a woman-hater IF you discount any contrary evidence. Dredd, Strontium Dog, Bec & Kawl. Any series. It's bullshit. It says nothing about the series, only your own prejudices.

[WoD]

Wow..DEBATE...good ennit...more than can be said about the current and recent runs of Slaine...

Personally I wouldn't shed a tear if it was dropped for a year or two.  I find this current story just confusing and lazy (or perhaps a better way to say it is, obvious and a re-treading of all the recent stories).  Perhaps it's because of this I dont read it in detail anymore, just skim through and on to something else which I prefer and that appeals more.

That's proably why I don't notice that it's Pat Mills who writes the stuff and haven't picked up on him being a 'woman hater'...if that's what people think.  I do read Rennie's Cabs quite closely (and most of Spurriers work) again not because of who's writing the stuff...that's not important to me...but because it is engaging.  I'd not picked up any sexism in GR's Cabs though...am I missing something there...?

[paulvonscott]

"the women in the stories *are* all evil"

No they aren't, only Medb of the stories I've read has been evil.  There are more straight male characters that any other type!

Nest, Niamh were fairly normal.  Both are different types of independantly minded women, making their way in a world where men and male gods are constantly being shown trying to supress women and female gods (and not as a good thing).

Often in Mill's strips, such as Nemesis, it's often the female characters who are pointing out the rather grotesque attributes of the male hero and villain.  All the Candice and Purity Brown stuff is really interesting.  Both become very dissallusioned with the rather perverse nature of the male protagonists.

Also, look at Slaine.  As well as a hero, he's a drunk, a philanderer, he seduced and dumped Niamh leaving her to face her birth pains on her own.  Is he a comment on men, or just a chracter with flaws?

Danu is a goddess, she's the personification of nature in a female form.  She isn't a woman.  I think that's a big mistake to make.  She can come to you in three forms, three ages of woman, and in ONE of them, she can be is treacherous and dangerous.  Just like nature itself.  If you were to take a male god, they would have as many exagerated features, both kind and cruel.

I appreciate people won't see it this way.  but I really think people take what they want from Slaine.  Personally, I think the comments of misogyny aren't really that well thought out and a bit high-handed.

For me, what sums up Slaine beautifully is the scene in Slaine the King where Ukko, the jester is telling jokes at the expense of the sexes.  Both halves of the audience enjoy and laugh when the follies and weaknesses of the opposite sex are pointed out, and become insensed and moody sods when its turned on them.  But they both get the same treatment, even if it's different faults pointed out.  

I've always seen it as a fairly balanced strip, but thats not to say there isn't conflict among the sexes.  Just as there is conflict these days (whatever position you want to take) and probably always has been.

I think from interviews it's been shown that what many people look for in the strip and seem to find, really wasn't something that Pat Mills was trying to make.  

Anyway, I'm sure it'll rumble on.  

[buserian]

Nope you haven't missed anything. Anyone being offended by Cabs Inc is seriously missing a sense of humour. My point was merely that if you're looking for evidence of sexism, you can find it anywhere. Cabs was chosen only because it was the most recent bit of dialogue that was cool enough to stick in my brain...

[WoD]

Paul is clearly in touch with both his masculine and feminine sides...so did you laugh at all of Ukko's jokes or none of them?

[Oddboy]

I think this probably makes my point as well as its ever going to be made.

Okay - you got me. I lied. Not all-as-in-every-single-one.
Just most.