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Author Topic: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places  (Read 3372 times)

Robin Low

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #30 on: 03 December, 2017, 08:50:15 am »
Is the organisation that built Stonehenge still around and still using their vast wealth and power to control, obstruct education, and cover up abuse? The church is still a very valid target, and drawing parallels between a living mountain who views the earth as a prison under his rule, and giant stone buildings that teach much the same, seems like a clever conceit.

Giving Pat a pass on this one.

I never said anything about the church. I was responding to the supposed obscenity of cathedrals.

No idea whether Pat deserves a pass or not, as I quit reading Slaine a couple of Brutania Chronicles back. (Even with some rather nice stuff from Simon Davis it's just tedious.) However, I don't think the world would necessarily a better place if Mills could rewrite history. It would just be bad in a different way.

Regards,

Robin

TordelBack

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #31 on: 03 December, 2017, 09:38:29 am »
I never said anything about the church. I was responding to the supposed obscenity of cathedrals.

Fair enough, but I can't help feeling the two are connected... I imagine the distaste expressed in the strip stems from that, rather than architectural criticism. I love a good cathedral, and most medieval churches, for all that I would happily see all religion pass into memory

Robin Low

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #32 on: 03 December, 2017, 12:49:21 pm »
I never said anything about the church. I was responding to the supposed obscenity of cathedrals.

Fair enough, but I can't help feeling the two are connected...

And it's reasonable to feel that way. The problem is, as always, human nature. If it wasn't the church, it would be some other organisation. Evil people, good people and stupid people will use whatever structures they can to enable their behaviour. Those same structures will attempt to protect themselves, with both the good and the stupid people arguing or perhaps just hoping that the good outweighs the bad, or maybe just not wanting to be tainted by association. We all know it happens in secular organisations too.

It's likely that organised structures facilitate abuse of power and cover-ups, but they also enable and promote good things, too. Both the good and the bad have to be acknowledged, and that's what Mills fails to do. It's similar to his attitude to superheroes. He only sees people looking to superheroes as their superiors, as saviours, and failing to see the inherent power of ordinary people. He fails to see that some people are inspired by superheroes to see the power in themselves.

Quote
I imagine the distaste expressed in the strip stems from that, rather than architectural criticism. I love a good cathedral, and most medieval churches, for all that I would happily see all religion pass into memory

I'd rather see Christian groups recognise the real good they could do in society, and that leading by example is better than force and threat when it comes to connecting with people. However, I think that by placing them under constant attack they inevitably withdraw and double down. I wonder if actively supporting individual priests, vicars, whoever, who are in favour of (for example) gay marriage would be more beneficial than attacking their church as a whole? I dunno, what do you think?

Sorry, I'm rambling a bit, as well as being attacked by a small child attempting to rub not-really-play-dough (from a good but still pretend Father Christmas) into my beard.

Regards,

Robin

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #33 on: 03 December, 2017, 01:57:49 pm »
I never said anything about the church. I was responding to the supposed obscenity of cathedrals.

Fair enough, but I can't help feeling the two are connected...


It's likely that organised structures facilitate abuse of power and cover-ups, but they also enable and promote good things, too. Both the good and the bad have to be acknowledged, and that's what Mills fails to do. It's similar to his attitude to superheroes. He only sees people looking to superheroes as their superiors, as saviours, and failing to see the inherent power of ordinary people. He fails to see that some people are inspired by superheroes to see the power in themselves.



Just to add to the debate-where we having a debate a debate?  :lol:

Particularly on Mills' dislike of superheroes I'd just add my feelings on the matter.

With Mills' output I enjoy the innate cynicism of his voice.
The naive ethos pushed by mostly American comics that some God like super-being will save the day just doesn't resonate with me and I find it uninteresting from a thematic and dramatic standpoint, as these indestructible superheroes face little threat, even when writers attempt to write around this limitation by taking away their powers, we all know they'll endure in the end.
Also their self righteous posturing and portentousness I find incredibly irritating and is my main reason while avoid such titles, unless they set out to deconstruct the genre.

Thankfully 2000AD has never pushed this agenda with its stable of anti-heroes and the fatalism and pragmatism imbued by the majority of characters and stories is a most welcome contrast.

I understand why superheroes are popular, hey we'd all like some super-being, or God, to come along and save the day and solve the world's problems, but the worlds problems are fundamentally man made and only man can solve them and delegating the responsibility to someone else sends the wrong message, to my mind.
Escapism is fine, but it sends the wrong message and perpetuates a flawed reasoning and world view.
Either that, or I'm a miserable old bastard!!! 

Just my musings on a particularly dull Sunday afternoon!  :)

Steve Green

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #34 on: 03 December, 2017, 02:35:49 pm »
Yeah it's a distinction between 2000AD and Marvel/DC characters.

Sam Slade usually loses.

Johnny Alpha has a pretty patch record on saving the day.

Dredd failed to stop the Apocalypse War happening, and eventually the near destruction of MC-1. He also failed to prevent Necropolis, The Judge Child quest was pretty much a wild-goose chase.

Interestingly Pat's Cursed Earth journey had him as the hero, and Garth ended up nuking his temporary success.

Ace Garp is definitely a loser.

Nemesis is outside your usual heroics.

Rogue is a bit of a weird one because his victory effectively ends the strip. But then it all goes a bit crap after achieving his victory.

Robin Low

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #35 on: 03 December, 2017, 05:50:46 pm »
Particularly on Mills' dislike of superheroes I'd just add my feelings on the matter.

Marshall Law:Fear and Loathing, Takes Manhattan, Kingdom of the Blind. Perfect, job done. After that, a bit pointless.

Regards,

Robin

Prodigal2

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #36 on: 04 December, 2017, 10:45:35 am »
I feel like I should chip in on the faith/Pat mills faith front. Problem is I'm knackered and not sure if I have the energy for an extended play on the issue.

A few thoughts:

1. Religion needs scrutiny-it can be and has been, the great legitimator for all kinds of ugliness.
2. Christians are a mixed bunch. Not all of us are into thought control or coercion. Really, really.
3. Agree on cathedrals. Beautiful, but far too much wealth tied up in church buildings.Believe it or not I am not the only Christian who subscribes to this. There's a lot of criticism on this front from many people within the church. Personally my preference is for small community based churches who book community halls/resources and are active in social action for its own sake.
4. Ironically one of the biggest tests, Biblically, to determine the reality of faith is the use of wealth. Christianity should should promote a radical social agenda in my view and not marry itself to wealth and power. Love the Levelers. Common ownership of property practiced by the disciples in NT etc (b incidentally Hitler called Communism the bastard son of Christianity).


Ranting now.



TordelBack

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #37 on: 04 December, 2017, 11:24:09 am »
As usual Prodigal presents a version of Christianity that is so welcome as to be almost shocking.  We've been over this before, but I have never been able to recognise the vaguest sliver of what I understood Jesus to be on about in the most vocal and visible expressions of Christianity. 

When you're reading about conflict and oppositions in the New Testament, stuff like Jesus and the Woes of the Pharisees, or Jesus v. the money changers in the Temple, or even Jesus and Zacchaeus v. His followers, which side does so much of the visible organised religion appear to be on?

As to Mills, I think the thematic resonance of a massive judgemental mountain decrying earthly pleasures and a massive stone building doing much the same was just to good to miss. For myself, as a born-again atheist, there is something wonderful about the cool dark and silence of walking into a great church in a busy summer city, or the breathtaking craftsmanship in a rood screen, or dizzying space beneath crossing tower, that leads me to forgive a lot.


pauljholden

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #38 on: 04 December, 2017, 01:56:29 pm »
3. Agree on cathedrals. Beautiful, but far too much wealth tied up in church buildings.Believe it or not I am not the only Christian who subscribes to this. There's a lot of criticism on this front from many people within the church. Personally my preference is for small community based churches who book community halls/resources and are active in social action for its own sake.

(To state my position: very much an atheist - baptised a catholic age 7, by my English protestant mother/catholic dad so I could be sent to a catholic school nearby - religion I've always felt is very much an accident of birth, but as someone once said about me - assuming, I think, it was complimentary, "He's the most moral atheist I ever met")

Went with my wife to Rome and toured St Peter's Basilica, and while my wife enjoyed it (I mean, it's amazing) I found myself getting more and more upset with the enormous wealth that was used to create it (especially considering it was built at a time of crippling property) coincidentally, on our return it was the 500 year anniversary of Martin Luther, and never having read any of his thesis (I remember something about him from history in my catholic boys school) I thought I should give them the once over, and one in particular stuck out for me, to wit:

86. Again, ``Why does not the pope, whose wealth is today greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build this one basilica of St. Peter with his own money rather than with the money of poor believers?''

Anyways, me and Martin Luther. We're like THAT.

As you were.

-pj
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Prodigal2

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #39 on: 05 December, 2017, 12:21:19 pm »
3. Agree on cathedrals. Beautiful, but far too much wealth tied up in church buildings.Believe it or not I am not the only Christian who subscribes to this. There's a lot of criticism on this front from many people within the church. Personally my preference is for small community based churches who book community halls/resources and are active in social action for its own sake.

(To state my position: very much an atheist - baptised a catholic age 7, by my English protestant mother/catholic dad so I could be sent to a catholic school nearby - religion I've always felt is very much an accident of birth, but as someone once said about me - assuming, I think, it was complimentary, "He's the most moral atheist I ever met")

Went with my wife to Rome and toured St Peter's Basilica, and while my wife enjoyed it (I mean, it's amazing) I found myself getting more and more upset with the enormous wealth that was used to create it (especially considering it was built at a time of crippling property) coincidentally, on our return it was the 500 year anniversary of Martin Luther, and never having read any of his thesis (I remember something about him from history in my catholic boys school) I thought I should give them the once over, and one in particular stuck out for me, to wit:

86. Again, ``Why does not the pope, whose wealth is today greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build this one basilica of St. Peter with his own money rather than with the money of poor believers?''

Anyways, me and Martin Luther. We're like THAT.

As you were.

-pj

While I was reading Pat's Slaine and browsing this topic I could not help but reflect on the experiences of my friend Andy, who was an elder (gaffer) in a local Presbyterian church in my home town just a few short years ago. At one meeting the issue arose as to what to do with  a sum of money that had been raised and earmarked for some building work around the church. Subsequently there had been some questioning as to the need for the work and there was a subsequent debate at an elders meeting. When Andy suggested that if they wanted to really wanted to act Biblically on the issue then he thought they should simply donate the money to worthy causes he was meet with a look of sheer incredibility before being ignored.

Prods do this sort too-maybe not just in such spectacular fashion but they do it.

PS This started Andy on a path to his now embraced atheism. We remain friends as we still like each other and my battered (make that often punch-drunk) faith and his atheism find no grounds for animosity.

philt

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #40 on: 05 December, 2017, 09:52:30 pm »
Judge Dredd surfing on the back of a dead dog. Unintended or not, that's as apt a metaphor for the state of the current iteration of Dredd as I can think of.

jabish

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #41 on: 05 December, 2017, 10:09:21 pm »
Judge Dredd surfing on the back of a dead dog. Unintended or not, that's as apt a metaphor for the state of the current iteration of Dredd as I can think of.

Back of the net with that comment. Jumped the shark? Nope. Worse. Surfed the dog. Very poor stuff.

Proudhuff

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #42 on: 06 December, 2017, 07:00:57 pm »
...and SinDex was a skippyskip for me.

I am so mad at you right now... just so mad...

... no just don't say anything...

...look no just stop it. Don't touch me, don't even look at me...

... just so mad at you...

er, hiya....
I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!

Colin YNWA

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #43 on: 07 December, 2017, 09:41:50 pm »
...and SinDex was a skippyskip for me.

I am so mad at you right now... just so mad...

... no just don't say anything...

...look no just stop it. Don't touch me, don't even look at me...

... just so mad at you...

er, hiya....

No, no its still too soon, still too raw...

Tiplodocus

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Re: Prog 2059 - Fiends in High Places
« Reply #44 on: 07 December, 2017, 10:27:44 pm »
Oo-er Missus!
Be excellent to each other. And party on!