2000 AD Online Forum

I was always quite fond of the mid/late 80's run on Daredevil, with Nocenti writing and John Romita Jr artwork, but have no idea whether they've stood the test of time. I'm about to re-read them now anyway, so I'll soon find out. I have recently gone back and read the Frank Miller runs, which vary in quality but set a nice tone for the series. And I thought I'd have a bit of a dabble with the Dennis O'Neill issues which came after Miller's first run, but discovered them to be pretty poor.

Anyway, what i wanted to know is, are there any decent runs after the Nocenti/JRjr run? Are Fall Of The Kingpin or Fall From Grace worth buying? And are they're any other standout issues? I'm strictly talking about the first volume here, as trade collections are few and far between, unlike the second volume which seems to be collected in entirety.

Personally I'd skip all that stuff and jump straight to the Bendis run. I have the new Omnibus on my shelf (next to the 2 Frank Miller Omniboo + my Bowen DD mini-bust   ) and its a very fine collection (apart from the misprint on the cover).

I found the Bendis run tosh, to be honest, and didn't see the appeal in turning a camp vigilante into some sort of sub-Sopranos knock-off with everyone talking like Joe Pesci circa every role he did in the mid-90s.  Bendis is not a 'story' guy, though it seems otherwise when he takes two years to get where 'lesser' writers end up after two issues.  After a couple of years of the same old gubbins, I dropped the book, but because Bendis writes with the trade collection (not the individual monthly) readers in mind, I can't even get rid of these so-called 'classic' issues of the Bendis arc - doubly useless!

Miller did the grim stuff well in the 1980s by not wallowing in it, Nocenti brought DD back to the Marvel Universe to face more outre adversaries again, but is a bit under-rated in FM's wake.  Did she do that Beer With The Devil issue?  That was good.

I was a fan of all Frank Miller's Daredevil stuff, but I haven't really kept up with any of the recent comics. I probably should. Daredevil is Marvel's Batman, after all.  

Big fan of a lot of the Daredevil stuff. Enjoyed Bendis' stuff and it played a large part in getting back into comics which led me back to the promised land of reading 2000ad regularly! That said the new Brubaker stuff is just as good.

Going back a bit I was a little disappointed when I last re-read the Miller + Janson stuff (though Janson's inks still rock) but will be giving it another go at some point as I picked up the omnibus cheap on eBay. As for Nocenti's stuff this was always my favourite when first into comics. Again I've recently picked this up cheap and having found time to read a few I have to say I think it holds up really well and is one of the long forgotten gems of comics - love it - even when it gets a bit preachie still great

Just finished the last trade of the Brubaker run and it truely has been excellent. Sure I wish one day they'd take Matt back, at least for a little while, to be a swahbuckling hero and not keep putting him through the mill. But hey his suffering is so well done.

One thing I think they've done exceptionally well on this title is make sure that after a long run by one writer or another you really do feel you have to keep going. It would seem that dropping off points are things of the past for DD at least. Brubakers run much like Bendis' before it ends in such a way that I know for a fact I'll have to pick up Diggle's first arc (not that there was much doubt anyway). I'm surprised more titles haven't picked up this method of handover.

Anyway great stuff.

Don't suppose anybody picked up Daredevil Black and White did hey. A nice little once shot from Marvel with a great little Pete Milligan story (and a fine text story by the brillant Anne Nocenti). Glad I saw this at my LCS as it'de passed me by completely.

blinding

I think i read the inferno stuff featuring stick, mephisto and son, typhoid mary etc and really loved it

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/daredevil/262-1.jpg (http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/daredevil/262-1.jpg)

Uh look at these teaser images from Jock.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=28253 (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=28253)

How nice is that leaping between buildings one!

Gorgeous couple of covers there - looks to me like a return to the Frank Miller days.

Still haven't caught up with Daredevil since I started this thread. I did get round to reading all the Nocenti / JRjr issues which I really enjoyed, and had fond memories of the one or two issues I'd previously read.

Unfortunately I then read Kevin Smith's run...

Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 10 September, 2010, 02:00:01 PM
Uh look at these teaser images from Jock.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=28253 (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=28253)

How nice is that leaping between buildings one!

Any chance Jock will be doing the art on this book?

Or is it just covers.

Given he's just signed to do Detective I'd guess not, but then you never know what changes might have happened?

Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 25 October, 2009, 09:32:54 AM
Just finished the last trade of the Brubaker run and it truely has been excellent. Sure I wish one day they'd take Matt back, at least for a little while, to be a swahbuckling hero and not keep putting him through the mill.

Well I necropost for a good reason. Rumour has it the new team of Waid and Paolo Rivera with Marcos Martin might be putting DD back to a more even keel. Regardless of what they do just look how great this art looks.

http://marvel.com/news/story/15983/sneak_peek_daredevil_1 (http://marvel.com/news/story/15983/sneak_peek_daredevil_1)

I know its a easy, lazy comparison but so reminiscent of Dave Mazzucchelli (especially the stuff just prior to Born Again) with a health dose of John Romita Jr thrown in.

Shame there seems to be a delay in getting the trades of Shadowland and Reborn out meaning I'm pretty behind the comics at this point.

Strikes me this is exactly what Daredevil needs (aside from a good long rest, to be quite honest... a couple of years out of circulation could do him a lot of good.) The character has been completely run into the ground in recent years and Waid, Rivera and especially Marcos Martin (one of the most remarkably talented chaps in US comics) might be just what the doctor ordered. No more pointless retreads of stuff Frank Miller did better two-and-a-half decades ago - I like the fact Waid intends to put a different spin on things.

Yeah I did wonder how long his lay off would be after Shadowland with the launch of the Black Panther title from that. I expected a Thor type lay off but I guess its sales are so consistent that that was never on the cards. Storywise yeah I think it'd have made perfect sense.

Or something like the road trip, voyage of self discover that Anne Nocenti took him on... but that's a well worn path.

Wow. Pop-up hell on Marvel's official site. They should be ashamed of themselves...

Cheers

Jim

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 27 May, 2011, 01:07:22 PM
Wow. Pop-up hell on Marvel's official site. They should be ashamed of themselves...

They should be more ashamed of their shit output which only serves to advertise the latest Mavel movie.

Decided to put this here as its a bit early to put it in the TV + Film section but according to Bleeding Cool some writer from 'Fringe' (I've not watched it so can't comment) has been asked to adapt 'Born Again' for a DD 'reboot'*

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/07/fringe-writer-hired-to-reboot-daredevil-movie-franchise-with-adaptation-of-frank-miller-david-mazzucchellis-born-again/ (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/07/fringe-writer-hired-to-reboot-daredevil-movie-franchise-with-adaptation-of-frank-miller-david-mazzucchellis-born-again/)

Now its a fantastic story, one of the very best. It just seems a strange choice to start something off. Its has long relationships so embedded in the fabric of the story its difficult to see how DD can be built up to be torn down in one film. Still we'll see.

*Also is it a reboot of a franchise when there's one film and a dodgy spin-off?

So, anyone picked up #1 of the Daredevil relaunch by Waid, Rivera and Martin? This has to be the most gorgeous-looking Marvel comic currently out there – the artwork is absolutely sublime, and a perfect fit for a story in which Waid gives us a very new take on Daredevil. Some are saying that it's a Daredevil we haven't seen in 30-40 years, but that's not strictly true – all the successive layers of tragedy are still part of Matt Murdock's background, he's just decided to pretend otherwise. The end result seems to be a carefree and yet clearly in-denial version of the character. Brilliant stuff, I'm a big fan of Mark Waid anyway, but this looks like being the best thing Marvel have had on the stands for ages.

I'm really looking forward to this and have heard nothing put good things. It would just seem that alas Daredevil would appear to the the title that Marvel are experimenting with DCs model for trade release on. All of which leads me, as Daredevil for various reasons the one title I tread wait on, having a very long wait for this. Shadowlands is still to come out in trade so this is about a year off I figure. Sigh still by the sounds it'll be good when it comes.

Didn't realise they were so far behind on collecting DD. I hope this run gets the commercial success it deserves, it's looking like such a great and sorely-needed take on the character. Have a sneaking suspicion it's going to be a critical darling but won't set the sales charts on fire though.

Well finally caught up with Shadowland and the end Andy Diggle's run on Daredevil, including Reborn.

It turned out the hardbacks were pretty cheap, in fact in a couple of cases cheaper than the trades are currently listed so I puckered up and got um... and read um and well they are a bit rubbish I'm afraid.

Well okay that's not fair. 'Shadowland' itself I just didn't enjoy. I suffered from what many core series for big events do and just seemed like the edited highlights. It was a big action romp but lacked any of the depth that DD stories normally do. The Daredevil issues themselves from Daredevil - Shadowland were better, more interesting. Okay there were some jarring gaps and leaps that if you weren't reading the core 'Shadowland' stuff would have been terrible  but on the whole better. Not great by DDs standards but the tone felt more in keeping with the books normal stuff.

Reborn was the best of the bunch by a distance. It was great but it was certainly more interesting, if the themes behind it were well trodden territory for old hornhead, which made things a little predictable. It did however capture that 'Red Rock West' kinda vibe really well and was great fun.

So Andy Diggle's Daredevil I have to say has been very disappointing overall. Its a shame as DD [spoiler]taking over The Hand and slipping down the path to darkness[/spoiler] seemed such a natural and logical conclusion to what goes on in the fella's life and had such potential to be really interesting. Alas instead we got a technicolour explosion and a cope out ending to Shadowland that anybody well versed in DD lore will have seen coming a mile away.

Shame

I largely agree, Colin... Shadowland was, sad to say, pretty poor. In fairness to Diggle, the whole 'get out of that' aspect of the baton-passing from Brubaker pretty much dictated the direction of Diggle's run from the off - maybe there was more that could have been done with [spoiler]DD as head of The Hand,[/spoiler] but it would have been hard to watch the character slipping month by month into irredeemable darkness, so maybe the whole [spoiler]'he was possessed' [/spoiler] angle was the only way to get him out of it, done to death though the idea was. Sad to say, as each issue went by, it descended into a morass of cliches. The one thing I thought was good is that when [spoiler]Daredevil killed Bullseye, he wasn't possessed - Matt knew exactly what he was doing. I really hope they keep him dead[/spoiler]... but of course they won't.

The last Daredevil story I read was that one where his life was falling apart.

Quote from: Greg M. on 30 August, 2011, 03:41:05 PM
...but it would have been hard to watch the character slipping month by month into irredeemable darkness,

What as a Daredevil fan this worried you????!!!!

Seriously I wondered about the whole

Quote from: Greg M. on 30 August, 2011, 03:41:05 PM

[spoiler]Daredevil killed Bullseye, he wasn't possessed - Matt knew exactly what he was doing. [/spoiler]

That was my first reading. I had a nagging doubt and when back to re-read bits and they do however leave themselves enough wiggle room and a reading can be made that while he wasn't [spoiler]fully in the command of the Hand demon fella[/spoiler] and there is a clear moment when ya man clicks in fully he was on the way. The [spoiler]beastie was playing with his old noggin[/spoiler] and twisting his actions. I personally, having looked at it that way, cast that aside and went with my first instinct and yours that Matt did the deed [spoiler]fully in control[/spoiler]. I just worry, as you do quite rightly with [spoiler]Bullseye[/spoiler] coming back whether down they will bottle it and make it clear that Matt wasn't Matt when this happened.

Still who cares the Waid stuff looks great guns so looking forward to that a load.

Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 30 August, 2011, 03:55:46 PM

Quote from: Greg M. on 30 August, 2011, 03:41:05 PM
...but it would have been hard to watch the character slipping month by month into irredeemable darkness,

What as a Daredevil fan this worried you????!!!!

It would have been the irredeemability that would have bothered me - if Matt was deemed to remain in control of his faculties, then the logical progression for the story would be that [spoiler]Matt strives valiantly to change the Hand, slips by degrees, and eventually becomes everything that he always hated with no real way back, and, distanced from the humanising support of Foggy and co, finally kills himself. I suppose at least 'a demon did it' allows the character to function.[/spoiler]

If that seems a bit hypocritical of me, given I said I'd like to think [spoiler]he knew what he was doing when he killed Bullseye[/spoiler], I think that's the kind of moral quandry that's more interesting for that particular character than becoming [spoiler]leader of a clan of demon ninjas[/spoiler]. Did he ever really think that was going to work out?

As an aside, one of my favourite Daredevil covers was issue 293: 'A Bullet For The Punisher'. Though I knew it would never happen, I always wished Matt'd just shot and killed Frank. That would have been an amazing moment.

But yeah... the Waid stuff is just remarkable. And painfully gorgeous.

Quote from: Greg M. on 30 August, 2011, 04:10:04 PM

As an aside, one of my favourite Daredevil covers was issue 293: 'A Bullet For The Punisher'. Though I knew it would never happen, I always wished Matt'd just shot and killed Frank. That would have been an amazing moment.

That would indeed be great. Arh Lee Weeks one of the (many) great unsung heroes of Daredevil.

Another thing that Shadowland did for me was put the final nail in the coffin of Ninja's ever being cool again. I mean we all know that a one armed 2 year old, having a bad asthma attack and with a really sore scratched knee could take out a Ninja these days. I mean who would hire these goons? Where do they come from? I can only assume that ninja school far from being, like a ten year programme of discipline and rigour conducted in a secret mountain retreat cut off from the rest of the world, can now in fact be complete, to NVQ level 2 at least at Wigan Technical College.

Someone really needs to do a 'Dalek' on the Ninja

Yet more fodder for the Law of Inverse Ninja Strength.

I've own Miller's original run on Daredevil + Born Again & The Man Without Fear. I thoroughly enjoyed Bendis' run, but unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to read Brubaker's run. I have been picking up Mark Waid's issues though. Waid's Daredevil & Rucka's Punisher are currently my two favorite ongoing Marvel titles right now.

Quote from: CommanderJobson on 09 September, 2011, 07:42:59 PM
I've own Miller's original run on Daredevil + Born Again & The Man Without Fear. I thoroughly enjoyed Bendis' run, but unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to read Brubaker's run.

I would unreservedly recommend Brubaker's opening arc, 'The Devil In Cell Block D', which is absolutely top-notch. I swear, I've seldom seen The Punisher written better than the way Brubaker totally nails his personality and modus operandi in these issues. It is about as excellent an introductory arc as I can imagine. However, with every subsequent arc, Brubaker's run gets weaker... the next one is pretty good, the one after still solid, but then it really starts to dip. I think Brubaker's not necessarily a 'big ideas' man... if he's given a good starting point, his  execution is flawless and super-competent (he and Matt Fraction together on 'Immortal Iron Fist' is a career high for both, Fraction firing off the lunatic ideas, Brubaker banging it all into shape) but left to his own devices things eventually unravel.

Well necropost schmecropost this is worth it.

Just finished the first collection of Waid, Rivera and Martin DD stuff (thank Amazon that the hardbacks are so cheap, it was getting hard resisting this in floppie and I ain't done floppie DD since Nocenti) and it was as good as I'd been lead to believe. I was nervous that after all the astonishing reviews it'd received, it couldn't match my expectations. It did just that and more.

As has been said by Gregits one of the most gorgeous American comics I've read since... since maybe Wednesday Comics. Its a feast on the eyes it really is, its bloody lovely. Waid has also made it the DD I've wanted to read for a long time. Its swashbuckling superheroics, just the way I love um, a bit like the Hawkeye stuff by Jim McCann but written by a bit of a genius.

Again as Greg says  (I should just quote his stuff and say "That" really!) Waid does a wonderful trick of making Matt a light, fun read, without negating all the crap he's been through for the last... well since Miller really. He side steps it, but leaves it hanging, sword, Dacomles, that kinda thing. When Mr Waid has a dark day I imagine it'll all come crashing back down, but for the time being this is one of the best mainstream comics I've read for an age.

Is he that blind cunt?

I was sure you'd love it, Colin, but I'm glad to hear it indeed went down well in the YNWA locale. You'll be pleased to hear that, as of #9, the quality hasn't dipped.... Marcos Martin's off the book, unfortunately, but Javier Pulido's work is no less beautiful. The current mini-arc, which sees Daredevil traversing the Mole-Man's caverns beneath New York, is utterly evocative, and makes the whole journey like some Orphean quest into the underworld. Just sublime.

' Dare Devil traverses the Mole Mans caverns' So he's gay as well as blind. Poor fucker.

Loved Bendis' whole run, and Brubaker carried the torch pretty well, too.

For a good one off, try Joe Quesada's "Father", which has more about Battling Jack Murdoch and a great, moving story.

Fuck that!!!! I hate fuckin 'Dare Dangle'. He gets hit in the face by a bucket full of fuckin toxic shit and 'BANG' he's blinded and becomes a fuckin superhero.Twat.No thanks. I shit on all MARVEL (except of course all of Jack 'The God' Kirby's inspired and creater owned out put and work includin 'Machine Man') and lets not forget Marvels the bonkers 'DeathLock'. Fuckin Awsom.

...






...

No reply? Must mean you agree. lol.

Quote from: bigjobs67 on 17 February, 2012, 11:28:50 PM
Twat.No thanks. I shit on all MARVEL

:o :o :o
Bwahahahahahaha

EDIT: but you rendered Roger speechless. Respect for that.

Lol.

Quote from: Greg M. on 17 February, 2012, 10:21:47 PM
The current mini-arc, which sees Daredevil traversing the Mole-Man's caverns beneath New York, is utterly evocative, and makes the whole journey like some Orphean quest into the underworld. Just sublime.

Was looking at the cover from 9 and it gave me flash backs to that final Nocenti Romita arc in the literal (both senses) underworld. Don't necessarily want it to be reflected in DDs current vein but always nice to remember that story.

Marvel do treat DD well creator wise and long may it continue.

I hope he gets hit by a bus and dies.

Quote from: bigjobs67 on 18 February, 2012, 12:24:39 PM
I hope he gets hit by a bus and dies.

Bigjobs - I think we get the message that you don't like DD, so how about you just fuck off to another thread where you might find something more interesting / constructive to say?

Oh. Okay. (Fuckin Dare Devil. Twat).

Just won 'Love's Labors (sic) lost'

http://www.manwithoutfear.com/daredevil-titles/ddloveslaborlost (http://www.manwithoutfear.com/daredevil-titles/ddloveslaborlost)

I was only vaguely aware of this when it first came out but after reading Waid's stuff did a bit of digging with new (re)found DD verve and saw what a great line up this volume had. Including a brilliant Vulture story (issue 225) that was a bit of a favourite of mine back in the day. Some superb Mazzucchelli art in these stories too as I recall as well.

The other thing I was wondering was whether any of the DD Essentials stand up. Most of the early DD I've read doesn't really stand up anymore. There's some lovely Gene Colan art in the one's I've read but not too inspiring storywise. All that said I've read very little pre 120 so was wondering if there was any high points worth picking up?

After collecting Marvel for 40 years I have retreated from all things Superhero and only very recently picked up a comic from my early youth-hence my presence here.

I was a huge DD fan under Miller, Bendis and Brubaker. Anything by those guys is pretty much gold if you want a brilliant dark take on DD. Post Brubaker nothing excited me and after years I dropped the title.

Panini's uk title 'mighty world of marvel' is currently running the first three parts of 'shadowland', a dd story that sees him set himself up as leader of the hand, go bad and live in a tower on the site of a bullseye atrocity, while other heroes try to take him down. Ts written by our own mr andy diggle, and is not bad a all. The back up strip, some hercules guff, is appalling though.

SBT

Mike Allred on the current Daredevil, how cool would that be.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/04/26/will-mike-allred-draw-daredevil/ (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/04/26/will-mike-allred-draw-daredevil/)

Don't let it just be a cover, just don't, this fella has gotta do at least one issue, I'd have him as ongoing artist in a beat, but don't see that happening. Still get him on the book.

And the really amazing thing is that we're talking about Daredevil here. What a transition: to think that Allred would now be the perfect fit for the series. Hell yeah... an all-Allred issue please.

I am enjoying almost nothing superhero-oriented these days, and yet DD is one of the very best things I'm reading right now. The love I have for this book....sigh.

The artist switches have hurt the book (especially the latest issue..), but I'm optimistic with Chris Samnee coming aboard. Allred would be fantastic on this book for an issue or so. Especially if Waid can write something specifically for him that takes advantage of his style. 

Quote from: Evil Pants on 26 April, 2012, 09:49:10 PM
I am enjoying almost nothing superhero-oriented these days, and yet DD is one of the very best things I'm reading right now. The love I have for this book....sigh.

The artist switches have hurt the book (especially the latest issue..), but I'm optimistic with Chris Samnee coming aboard. Allred would be fantastic on this book for an issue or so. Especially if Waid can write something specifically for him that takes advantage of his style.

Pants all taste is subjective and not to criticise but what do you like about waid's take on the book? I was a huge DD fan but Waid just left me cold.

Quote from: The Prodigal on 27 April, 2012, 08:28:31 AM
Pants taste is subjective

I like mine to taste freshly washed with a hint of summer meadow.

I've only read a bit of the Waid DD run so far (holding out for the astrological conjunction of Collection and Library) but what I've seen certainly floated my boat - a lovely mix of down-to-earth courtroom soap, and convincingly forced good humour (from the lead) while joyfully embracing the madness of actually living/adventuring in the Marvel universe.  Reminded me of Thunderbolts (that's a good thing).  That said, I haven't read DD since the Miller years, and then not all that much.

What I did get to read, and utterly loathed, was Daredevil Season 1 by Anthony Johnston and Some Guy.  What the hell that was supposed to be I have no idea, but what it was was dull as dishwater.  I kept waiting for something interesting to happen beyond the ridiculous underlying plot. It never did. 

Quote from: The Prodigal on 27 April, 2012, 08:28:31 AM

Pants all taste is subjective and not to criticise but what do you like about waid's take on the book? I was a huge DD fan but Waid just left me cold.

Yep...all taste is subjective. But some taste is a little less subjective than others :-) In 2011, Waid's DD was the most critically acclaimed comic in North America...by far. I would say that critical love has continued, though again the artist changes have hurt it. Again, I expect Samnee coming aboard will fix that.

I've enjoyed many many many DD comics over the years...More than most superhero titles...but for me that love is creatively driven. It's a character that has invited some very strong runs. When the creative teams are weak, I leave the book, as I did after Ed Brubaker left the book. My loyalty towards characters is almost non-existent. My loyalty towards creators knows no bounds. I don't read 2000AD because it has Judge Dredd in it. I read 2000AD because of John Wagner. If he chooses to do Dredd stories, then that's what I'm going to read.

As for Waid's DD...here are a few reasons why this book was and is among the very best things I've read in   the last year (and probably one of the very best Marvel comics I've read in the last decade). Those who have read my comments in the relatively short time I've been here know that there is very little I'm enjoying about mainstream comics these days. So here goes.

- It's a comic book. That sounds trite, but it's really the major reason. Specifically, it's a comic book that actually uses it's medium to the fullest. The story that Waid is telling could only be told in the unique visual medium that is comics, and that's the first time since Frank Miller's run that that could be claimed. Waid's is a story that is being told visually, with dialogue used to accompany, not overshadow, the art. I would say that at around 90% of comics that the big two publishes don't actually use their art to tell their stories.

- The art. Marcos Martin and Paulo Rivera have something in common that is extremely rare in North American superhero comics right now: They are storytellers. It's a lost skill right now among artists that are working for the big two, and the first year of DD was lucky enough to have 2 artists that are trying to bring it back. Part of it is Waid's scripts of course, but these are two guys that emphasize storytelling first, cool pin-ups second.

- Defined, yet fully rounded characterization. DD has not been a solo book for a very long time. It's a book about two men, both dealing with the sometimes terrible decisions of one of those men. Waid's Murdock captures much of the swagger that hasn't been seen in DD's comics for a looooong time. Serial supehero comics are by their very nature cyclical. You need highs, and you need lows. Waid's Murdock captures the character at a high, but we're also made aware that it wouldn't take much to push him back to a low. For the first time in a long time, we see Murdock as a confident, charismatic man. It's a welcome break from the angst that's gone on before. As for the second part of that duo...it's nice to see Foggy portrayed as something more than just comic relief. And to see him actually get some action for once.

- It's a story about a blind man that doesn't forget that he's blind. This one is huge. Traditionally, DD's super senses are written as so extremely powerful that you wonder why anyone would want to have vision in the first place. Not Waid's DD. He would give the superpowers up in a second if it meant that he could see again. We see the positives of his powers...but we also see what a weakness they can be, and are constantly reminded as to what he's lost. Rarely does an issue go by that doesn't remind us what a wonderful, yet terrible burden this man has. But it never crushes us with it...it's a gentle reminder.

I could go on, and on. Now, I LOVE Frank Miller's DD run. LOVE it. I think that Born Again is one of the finest stories ever told in supehero comics. And the Bendis run to me is a masterclass in modern noir storytelling. So it's not like this is an either/or scenario for me. I loved those runs for specific reasons, and I love this run for others. Waid has brought a post-pop art sensibility to the character that I'm thoroughly enjoying. I hope he stays for a good long while.

Quote from: TordelBack on 27 April, 2012, 10:10:23 AM

Quote from: The Prodigal on 27 April, 2012, 08:28:31 AM
Pants taste is subjective

What I did get to read, and utterly loathed, was Daredevil Season 1 by Anthony Johnston and Some Guy.  What the hell that was supposed to be I have no idea, but what it was was dull as dishwater.  I kept waiting for something interesting to happen beyond the ridiculous underlying plot. It never did.

Agreed. And I like Antony Johnston. Wasteland is a favourite of mine. But none of these Season 1 books have been worth reading, IMO. Really don't understand what Marvel was trying to do with these. What a waste of an opportunity. 

Quote from: Evil Pants on 27 April, 2012, 04:13:09 PM
But none of these Season 1 books have been worth reading, IMO. Really don't understand what Marvel was trying to do with these. What a waste of an opportunity.

I got the X-men one out the library last week and it seems like one of those 'lets appeal to the kids' horribly misjudged marketing ideas - a contemporary update of the origin story with a totally incongruous introductory episode to recent continuity. Anyone who wanted the former would be baffled by the latter. And neither were very good.

Quote from: Evil Pants on 27 April, 2012, 03:59:58 PM

Quote from: The Prodigal on 27 April, 2012, 08:28:31 AM

Pants all taste is subjective and not to criticise but what do you like about waid's take on the book? I was a huge DD fan but Waid just left me cold.

Yep...all taste is subjective. But some taste is a little less subjective than others :-) In 2011, Waid's DD was the most critically acclaimed comic in North America...by far. I would say that critical love has continued, though again the artist changes have hurt it. Again, I expect Samnee coming aboard will fix that.

I've enjoyed many many many DD comics over the years...More than most superhero titles...but for me that love is creatively driven. It's a character that has invited some very strong runs. When the creative teams are weak, I leave the book, as I did after Ed Brubaker left the book. My loyalty towards characters is almost non-existent. My loyalty towards creators knows no bounds. I don't read 2000AD because it has Judge Dredd in it. I read 2000AD because of John Wagner. If he chooses to do Dredd stories, then that's what I'm going to read.

As for Waid's DD...here are a few reasons why this book was and is among the very best things I've read in   the last year (and probably one of the very best Marvel comics I've read in the last decade). Those who have read my comments in the relatively short time I've been here know that there is very little I'm enjoying about mainstream comics these days. So here goes.

- It's a comic book. That sounds trite, but it's really the major reason. Specifically, it's a comic book that actually uses it's medium to the fullest. The story that Waid is telling could only be told in the unique visual medium that is comics, and that's the first time since Frank Miller's run that that could be claimed. Waid's is a story that is being told visually, with dialogue used to accompany, not overshadow, the art. I would say that at around 90% of comics that the big two publishes don't actually use their art to tell their stories.

- The art. Marcos Martin and Paulo Rivera have something in common that is extremely rare in North American superhero comics right now: They are storytellers. It's a lost skill right now among artists that are working for the big two, and the first year of DD was lucky enough to have 2 artists that are trying to bring it back. Part of it is Waid's scripts of course, but these are two guys that emphasize storytelling first, cool pin-ups second.

- Defined, yet fully rounded characterization. DD has not been a solo book for a very long time. It's a book about two men, both dealing with the sometimes terrible decisions of one of those men. Waid's Murdock captures much of the swagger that hasn't been seen in DD's comics for a looooong time. Serial supehero comics are by their very nature cyclical. You need highs, and you need lows. Waid's Murdock captures the character at a high, but we're also made aware that it wouldn't take much to push him back to a low. For the first time in a long time, we see Murdock as a confident, charismatic man. It's a welcome break from the angst that's gone on before. As for the second part of that duo...it's nice to see Foggy portrayed as something more than just comic relief. And to see him actually get some action for once.

- It's a story about a blind man that doesn't forget that he's blind. This one is huge. Traditionally, DD's super senses are written as so extremely powerful that you wonder why anyone would want to have vision in the first place. Not Waid's DD. He would give the superpowers up in a second if it meant that he could see again. We see the positives of his powers...but we also see what a weakness they can be, and are constantly reminded as to what he's lost. Rarely does an issue go by that doesn't remind us what a wonderful, yet terrible burden this man has. But it never crushes us with it...it's a gentle reminder.

I could go on, and on. Now, I LOVE Frank Miller's DD run. LOVE it. I think that Born Again is one of the finest stories ever told in supehero comics. And the Bendis run to me is a masterclass in modern noir storytelling. So it's not like this is an either/or scenario for me. I loved those runs for specific reasons, and I love this run for others. Waid has brought a post-pop art sensibility to the character that I'm thoroughly enjoying. I hope he stays for a good long while.

Great, comprehensive answer-maybe I will re-visit the title or invest in a trade. Maybe I didn't give it long enough either.

How on Earth did I miss Evil Pant's answer to why he likes the current run, masterful my man, masterful.

Anyway onto other gleeful stuff Mike Allred is confirmed as drawing issue 17 (the whole issue not just the cover). OH HAPPY DAY. DD is a book that MiKe Allred can draw and it makes sense. Its been a while getting there but I'm damned glad it has.

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2012/05/17/nice-art-mike-allred-draws-daredevil-17/ (http://www.comicsbeat.com/2012/05/17/nice-art-mike-allred-draws-daredevil-17/)

Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 17 May, 2012, 04:26:12 PM
How on Earth did I miss Evil Pant's answer to why he likes the current run, masterful my man, masterful.

Anyway onto other gleeful stuff Mike Allred is confirmed as drawing issue 17 (the whole issue not just the cover). OH HAPPY DAY. DD is a book that MiKe Allred can draw and it makes sense. Its been a while getting there but I'm damned glad it has.

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2012/05/17/nice-art-mike-allred-draws-daredevil-17/ (http://www.comicsbeat.com/2012/05/17/nice-art-mike-allred-draws-daredevil-17/)

Thanks sir.

That is awesome news about Allred. Just awesome. I have to say...I like Chris Samnee a lot...but he hasn't been the slam dunk fit I thought he'd be on this book. Seems more of a place-holder than a full-on replacement. Not quite sure why that is.

Just read the second volume of Waid's DD run and once again he knocks it out the park, its just plain superb. Worthy winner of the Eisner. This one will one day challenge for the title of best ever DD run it really will.

Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 17 July, 2012, 08:15:11 PM
Just read the second volume of Waid's DD run and once again he knocks it out the park, its just plain superb. Worthy winner of the Eisner. This one will one day challenge for the title of best ever DD run it really will.

And yet Waid has received criticism for relegating DD to a poor mans Spider-man status. I myself dropped the title.

Tempted to buy the trade by your post.

Quote from: The Prodigal on 25 July, 2012, 07:51:27 AM

And yet Waid has received criticism for relegating DD to a poor mans Spider-man status. I myself dropped the title.

Taking him back to his roots then!

I'd say far from it though. One of the things Waid has done with such skill is alleviate the 'Daredevil as grim tormented soul' meme (is that a meme?) in the short term, while leaving that very tormented soul very much as the driver for the series. Its a wonderful effort. The fact that it could very well be argued that the surface stories, or the superhero stuff, could easily be retooled as Spiderman tales could be levelled at a heck of a lot of other works. The real story is the one of Matt Murdock trying to break free of his cycle of emotional extremes, the very act of doing so making it seem like he's simply doing it all over again just with different specifics. The tension is derived from the fact that no one knows if another breakdown is just another dead girlfriend away, even Matt you suspect.

Oh and the superhero bits might be genric, but they have rarely been done this well and all neatly tie to the ideas above. So for example in this volume DD goes to the underworld again, as he has done in the past both metaphorically and so wonderfully in the Nocenti issues, literally. This time though its a much 'lighter' affair, yet the dark undertones run deep. Its incredibly deftly handled and while its a very positive take on the DD in hell idea, it has consequences that have us looking a Matt very concerned.

Not an avid follower, but had to pick up the Mike Allred illustrated issue today. It's feckin lovely.
The comics equivalent of getting a hug off your Gran while eating a toasted cheese sandwich and watching a 60's episode of The Twilight Zone on Blu-ray.

I know I'm coming to this thread pretty late (I've only just seen it) but I grew up with the Nocenti run and although it had its faults, it's great come the time he's in Hell- carrying a flame the forces of Hell want to extinguish and rejecting Mephisto's offers. That's followed by his return- he's lost his memory and Bullseye is running around New York in the DareDevil outfit as Matt Murdock dreams about his past before remembering who he is and taking on Bullseye wearing... Bullseye's costume! The excitement this caused me to experience as a child has never been matched.
You then had D.G. Chichester take the reins and write Last Rites (Fall of the Kingpin)- a brilliant sequel to Born Again- before the title lost its stride in my eyes. I stopped collecting until the Kevin Smith run and stopped collecting again shortly after he left. I haven't really liked any of the writers since Smith. It's an interesting idea to get rid of Miller's grim and gritty feel in favour of the swashbuckling origins, but it hasn't had me buying the title again. My problem is they really have done EVERYTHING they can do with old horn head

Well we've been neglecting Matt of late, but just having read the fourth collection (bless Marvel for making these hardcovers so cheap) I can't justify such ignorance any longer. My God will Waid's run really be challenging for my favourite ever DD run, can it do that... well maybe, maybe it is already. These things need to be judged with a bit of time and distance, when the runs complete. After all one of the masterful things about Nocenti's run was how well it was completed, how she took things apart and then put them back together, well as much as Matt's ever fully back together, so we need to see how Waid finishes things off. Its fair to say though I'm in no rush to see the end of this run as its bloody brilliant.

Book IV, covering issues 16-21, with thankfully no cross-over (the Spidey, Punisher thing has been the only really let down in this run so far) this time was just superb. Foggy finally does what Foggy could reasonably have been expected to do long ago. Matt finds out whose been playing him and his sanity. Only for more questions to be raised at the end. Allred draws a wonderful, very Allred story, Chris Samnee provides some beautiful art, Ant Man, a great new villain, another vision of hell, a wonderful cliff hanger.. christ there's a lot of good good things packed in there. I chuffin' love it.

Saw my older brother yesterday and he asked if I've heard about the upcoming DareDevil story which he says is supposed to do for DareDevil what Dark Knight Returns did for Batman. Think he may have said Punisher is incarcerated in it and is toying with giving away information like Dr Lecter in Silence of the Lambs and DD is dead? I was far too hot to pay decent attention to what he had to say given the distance I'd just walked in the heat but I'm afraid I can't even remember the title or creative team behind this! Come to think about it, this may have simply been a heat-induced fantasy.

I think he might be referring to Daredevil: End of Days by Bendis, Maleev (with klaus Janson apparently) I'm trade waiting it so can't be sure, but sounds about right.

SBTI'd say that far from being a "poor man's Spidey", this run of Daredevil has done more to create a feeling of marvel's New York being a cohesive locale, populated by characters who sit beside eachother realistically, than any comic outside the spiderverse, ever. It's got me reading monthly- in print- off the back of the sublime 'Superior Spider-Man' , and DD is suddenly a favourite. I've recently read the entirety of Miller's famous run, reprinted in Panini's MWOM, and sorry- but Waid's version does more for me.

While Marvel have been obsessing about galactic heroes and the more silly end of their super-spectrum (iron man, Thor etc) the likes of DD, Otto's Spidey and Hawkeye have been holding the fort for the moRe hounded, less cosmic, grimy noo yawk !that the late sixties marvels always suggested was nearly real. Their use of artists a million miles from the awful cack steroidal twattery of Jim lee et al is only a part of that. But yeah, Daredevil is a must-buy

Quote from: SmallBlueThing on 14 July, 2013, 03:45:29 PM

I've recently read the entirety of Miller's famous run, reprinted in Panini's MWOM, and sorry- but Waid's version does more for me.

I've said for a while now I don't think the Miller run has aged well. It must have been freaking amazing back in the day, but shows its age. Its far from terrible but not as good as a number of other DD runs. Klaus Janson's inks are however timeless.

Waid's run is quite brilliant but have you tried Nocenti's SBT?

Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 14 July, 2013, 01:00:56 PM
I think he might be referring to Daredevil: End of Days by Bendis, Maleev (with klaus Janson apparently) I'm trade waiting it so can't be sure, but sounds about right.

Thanks for that, Colin, and End of Days does sound familiar; can't believe I overlooked the current Marvel slogan (e.g. If you're not sure who the writer is going to be, it's more than likely Bendis) on this. I'm one of those who don't really like his work so I'm a bit disappointed to hear his name and can't see him doing anything comparable to Dark Knight. May have to punch my brother in the back of the head next time I see him for this...

I'm very tempted to try Daredevil but it's been absolutely years since I read any of his comics. If I start with the Mark Waid stories (I enjoyed his Fantastic Four run a few years ago) is there anything I need to know going in? I guess I could Wikipedia it but reading years worth of continuity for comic characters can be pretty tiresome.

Also, SBT, you haven't been on the Last Movie thread for ages - I always enjoyed reading your reviews.

Quote from: JamesC on 14 July, 2013, 09:02:49 PM
SBT, you haven't been on the Last Movie thread for ages - I always enjoyed reading your reviews.

Between those and the tales of explosive bowel complications, this place is much more fun with SBT around. Welcome back.

Quote from: JamesC on 14 July, 2013, 09:02:49 PM
If I start with the Mark Waid stories (I enjoyed his Fantastic Four run a few years ago) is there anything I need to know going in?

I think you can start fresh from the Waid run - everything you need should be provided as you go. It might be handy to know that prior to this run, Matt Murdock has been getting progressively more messed-up and 'dark' (wife got driven insane, Matt got possessed by a demon and killed Bullseye - the usual misery) but as of the Waid era the character is acting like nothing bad has happened - something which worries Foggy.

Quote from: Greg M. on 14 July, 2013, 09:18:55 PM

Quote from: JamesC on 14 July, 2013, 09:02:49 PM
If I start with the Mark Waid stories (I enjoyed his Fantastic Four run a few years ago) is there anything I need to know going in?

I think you can start fresh from the Waid run - everything you need should be provided as you go. It might be handy to know that prior to this run, Matt Murdock has been getting progressively more messed-up and 'dark' (wife got driven insane, Matt got possessed by a demon and killed Bullseye - the usual misery) but as of the Waid era the character is acting like nothing bad has happened - something which worries Foggy.

As ever what Greg said really. The specifics of his current dilemmas aren't really central to the series. Its just superb stuff.

This is the series that just keeps giving. As I've discussed elsewhere I've just finished book 5 and I've come here to say something a little different. I think I am now prepared to say, even though its not over, even though after 27 issues you could argue we've only had the one arc, even though my love for Nocenti's run knows no bounds (it always makes my 10 top runs of all time when I do that kinda thing) and I'd take Born Again over any other of Miller's work when he was good, ANY of it... even with all that I'll call it now.

Mark Waid's Daredevil is my favourite take on the character. My number one, my top of the heap.

Now the only question is next time I do a top ten can I fit both this and the Nocenti run in?

Opps seem to be multi posting on this thread - sorry but this news seems worth it. Alas the current run of Daredevil will be ending with issue 36 as confirmed by Chris Samnee.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/10/23/daredevil-to-end-with-36-according-to-chris-samnee/ (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/10/23/daredevil-to-end-with-36-according-to-chris-samnee/)

This seems to support the rumour that this will mark the end of Mark Waid's simple sublime run on the title. No doubt the man without fear will have a new number one almost straight away, but whomever the new creative team is they are going to have one heck of a challenge matching the standard of what's gone before. Still looking forward to seeing who that is and hope they are up to the job.

Oh come on you lot, Greg where are you. Well while I wait for you I'll continue to whistle in the wind.

Waid's Daredevil Book 6 is another winner. The Indestructible Hulk 9-10 provide a nice interlude. I couldn't eat a whole one I don't think but I liked this as part of the DD collection. This is full of nice little shorts and for all the talk of Saga, Hawkeye and what not this book really should never be over looked as the best mainstream book out there.

I have not read enough of waids Daredevil going through the marvel uk reprints but what i've read has been fantastic.

Can I ask what they are being reprinted in?

Mighty World of Marvel

Nearly bought this recently but the reprints are old and the rest of the 'World' seems tosh. Will pick up the Waid books, they do look good.

Quote from: IronGraham on 16 January, 2014, 11:12:59 PM
Mighty World of Marvel

Oh cool didn't release that was still going. I've always meant to get a chunk of these as they always looked such great value.

I get email cause I save money and don't mind that they are behind

Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 16 January, 2014, 09:27:22 PM
Oh come on you lot, Greg where are you. Well while I wait for you I'll continue to whistle in the wind.

Sorry for the lack of Murdock-related posts, Colin! If I recall, you've reached what I think of as the 'Daredevil Team-Up' period - Daredevil meets the Hulk, Daredevil meets the Silver Surfer, Daredevil meets the Legion of Monsters. Didn't grab me quite as much as the previous arc, but then that was one of the high points of the run to date. I actually find myself being a bit complacent about the quality of the Waid run - it's been so consistently excellent that I've started to foolishly take it for granted. Interested to see how the relaunch goes - and glad Waid's sticking with it.

Well just read Volume 7 - the last of this series, run ... whatever Marvel call their... things now.

ANYWAY its great. The series... run... oh you get it by know ends really nicely... well doesn't really end but sets up the next chapter neatly and was immensely enjoyable. Can't wait for the next volume, or whatever, chuffed the creative team is hanging around.

Well its about time I dragged this old goat up by its boot straps and flung it all malnourished and forlorn in front of you. Treat it kindly, by heck if we don't ...

... ahem... anyway why the hell have a done this. Well I know there are a few DD fans in these parts so I thought you might be interested in participating in this, Comics Should be Good 'Top 50 Daredevil stories' vote.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/03/23/vote-for-the-50-greatest-daredevil-stories/#comments (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/03/23/vote-for-the-50-greatest-daredevil-stories/#comments)

Now please don't bother going there if you are just going to vote for the Frank Miller run (well even I couldn't leave out Born Again, which if I was being honest would be my number 1 or 2) rather can I suggest you vote for stories from Ann Nocenti's much neglected, yet brilliant run. I know I gave it my top four places. 

Not knowledgable enough on DD to rank his tales, but the current run is great. The soapy elements are done so, so well. The only other title that handles characters realistically without being cringy is Saga...

Anyway, main point. As I try to wade through the comics pile I recently caught up with Elektra. It is a revelation, it drips with style and the art is stunning. Painted but with a swagger, not lumpen. If that makes sense. Then the other day I see it's ended, with issue 11. Effectively a maxi-series. Booooo!!!

That the current series? Seen a few pages on previews and this & that, have to say it looked beautiful.

Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 24 March, 2015, 01:49:59 PM
That the current series? Seen a few pages on previews and this & that, have to say it looked beautiful.

Sure is. DD features fleetingly in the last issue I read (I may be a couple of months behind, dunno) in a kind-of dream sequence thingy of utter beauty. If you have a DD habit, I recommend it highly.

Quote from: Fungus on 24 March, 2015, 01:43:40 PM
Not knowledgable enough on DD to rank his tales, but the current run is great.

Like Colin, I do really enjoy Nocenti-era Daredevil, but the current Waid run has a fair claim to being the best the character's ever had. Now it's coming to an end, I wonder (and rather dread) where the character will go next - hopefully not right back to the sub-Miller dark 'n' grim stuff, though this seems inevitable for 'synergy' with the tv show.

Hmm, could vote for the 'classic' Mike Murdock storyline... http://sacomics.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/short-life-of-mike-murdock.html

That blog makes an interesting point about how few Silver Age characters had siblings. In 2000AD, of course, if a character's got a brother, that brother is almost definitely a baddie. (Alpha, Dredd, Savage, Devlin Waugh, Amtrak, most of Dante's brothers bar two...)

Quote from: Greg M. on 24 March, 2015, 05:08:20 PM
That blog makes an interesting point about how few Silver Age characters had siblings. In 2000AD, of course, if a character's got a brother, that brother is almost definitely a baddie. (Alpha, Dredd, Savage, Devlin Waugh, Amtrak, most of Dante's brothers bar two...)

Are you trying to pluck up the courage to talk publicly about the evil Greg W?

Quote from: Link Prime on 27 March, 2015, 11:37:34 PM
Are you trying to pluck up the courage to talk publicly about the evil Greg W?

What does the W stand for? No, don't answer...

I read comics, Link, and I even write 'em - I'm clearly an only child.

Well the topo 50 countdown has begun. Check it out here.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/01/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-50-41/ (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/01/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-50-41/)

Two of mine (a little disappointingly) have appeared already. Both American Dream and Daredevil in Hell were in my top 5. Still good to see them getting some credit.

The DD countdown is heading towards the top ten. Most of my favourites have now shown up, a couple of exceptions that were never going to make it aside. Here's the links to the chart up to 11, there are some wonderful comics in here.

The afore mentioned 50 - 41

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/01/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-50-41/ (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/01/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-50-41/)

40-36

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/02/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-40-36/ (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/02/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-40-36/)

35-31

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/03/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-35-31/ (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/03/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-35-31/)

30-26

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/04/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-30-26/ (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/04/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-30-26/)

25-21

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/05/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-25-21/ (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/05/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-25-21/)

and catching us up to date 20-11

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/07/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-20-11/ (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/07/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-20-11/)

Here's the masterlist for the countdown, including the top ten and the predictable top 3.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/12/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-master-list/ (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/04/12/50-greatest-daredevil-stories-master-list/)

If you ever needed any evidence of why Daredevil is probably the best written long term mainstream superhero comic there's ever been (wellWally aside) here it is. Remember as well I say this having not been too impressed with how well Frank Miller's first run has stood the test of time when last I read it AND I've never been a fan of The Man Without Fear (I do adore Born Again)

Some great Daredevil deals on ComiXology today, including Millers run and various other collected editions.
Just picked up 'Born Again' for €5.

Well its well timed, if a little predictable. All this DD talk has made decide to revisit the Miller run (original) again. I used to own the comics, sold them in my big purge of 2002/3, then bought them again in the Omnibus, but didn't really enjoy them as much as I remember doing and hated the format (don't like omnibussessesseessi, too cumbersome to make reading fun) so sold that. Been meaning to find a cheap way to pick them up again in case I really didn't enjoy them anymore AND this is it. Perfect. All the available original run purchased (up to 184 and lets face it it goes a little down hill after than) for 12 quid and change.

Thanks for the heads up. Nervous wait now for these to get to the top of my reading spreadsheet.

I hope you opted for the 1st Miller digital 'collection' and not the single issues Colin.
The former was only €4.99 (including two Spectacular Spider-Man issues by Miller & Daredevil issues 158- 172) the latter would have cost you €0.99 per comic!

I went back yesterday evening to pick up The Man Without Fear also, couldn't resist it.
A pitch perfect origin story by Miller, and some of JRJR's best ever work.
I really enjoyed revisiting it.

Oh I did. Got the collection which took me up to 172 for the crazy price of £2.99 and then topped the singles from the second collection which didn't seem to be on offer as a collection, for 69p each?

Alas it looks like they haven't got around to digitising the final collection or the individual issues there in yet.

Good stuff Colin.

Yep, there are still plenty of gaps in my Daredevil collection, physical and digital.
I'm ashamed to admit I didn't really pay much attention to Waids run, despite the almost universal praise.
I'll have to remedy that.

I'm always banging on about the value of Panini's Pocket Book editions but they've just started to reprint Frank Miller's Daredevil run. The first book 'Marked for Murder' has just been released. It's 176 pages, full colour, for £6.99.
A nice affordable way to read the stories.

Well I just won't let this thread lay down and die will I, seems fitting though. Mind if anyone has kept up with this thread they'll know just how big a thing I'm about to say is. See next time there's one of those CSBG top DD stories votes I've got a new entry in my top 10 and there are a LOAD of unbelievibly good Daredevil stories out there. BUT just read Lee Weeks 3 part 'Angel Unaware' from the Daredevil: Dark Knights mini-series (the collection of which has just made the top of my reading list) BLOODY HELL that's near perfect DD.

Lee Weeks has always been a very underrated artist, loved this actual run on Daredevil back in the day, but the story is something else. Its in many ways the quintessential summary of DD, what makes him a great character and how the world he inhabits forms that. Its a glorious combination of the best meladrama that Marvel does so well, ground down quite gloriously by the downbeat, grim and gritty quality that serves much of the best DD so well. Its really quite something.

Well it must be if its kicking something out of my already crowded DD top ten (well a top ten can't be crowded actually can it, should have said keenly contested but didn't, ho-hum, one day someone will invent something that lets you edit things you type of the internet... hey what does this key do top lef

I am/was a big Daredevil fan but havent read anything since the end of Bendis's run (10 years ago) would like to pick up some TPBs, so recommendations gratefully received likewise the Punisher of which I have read nothing post Ennis.

Quote from: Citi-Def_Joe on 09 November, 2015, 10:31:29 PM
I am/was a big Daredevil fan but havent read anything since the end of Bendis's run (10 years ago) would like to pick up some TPBs, so recommendations...

Jesus don't say the end of the Bendis run was 10 years ago, that's too scarey!

The trouble is with giving recommendations is there has been so much good stuff. He really is the must consustently well written character in comics since Wally West's Flash (and possible better than him). I think if you want the very best go for the Waid run, any of it. Or if you fancy going back a bit further I'd always recommend the Ann Nocenti run and as it happens there's a new collection of a nice chunk of that coming out in January.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Daredevil-Epic-Collection-Touch-Typhoid/dp/0785196889/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1447136254&sr=8-10&keywords=ann+nocenti (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Daredevil-Epic-Collection-Touch-Typhoid/dp/0785196889/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1447136254&sr=8-10&keywords=ann+nocenti)

Which happens to include a punisher story come to think of it.

If you're looking for good Punisher stories go for the Aaron/Dillon stuff.

Quote from: Citi-Def_Joe on 09 November, 2015, 10:31:29 PM
I am/was a big Daredevil fan but havent read anything since the end of Bendis's run (10 years ago) would like to pick up some TPBs, so recommendations gratefully received likewise the Punisher of which I have read nothing post Ennis.

Simplest answer, after Bendis start with Brubaker. In my opinion his run is great, not as good as Bendis run but... Still great. I loved the fact he used Dakota North, I loved his story with Rucka in "Cruel and Unusual" for being great reminder of how good this guys used to work together in Gotham Central.

Then ofcourse End Of Days by Benids cuz it's like epilogue to his run.

Quote from: jacob g on 10 November, 2015, 08:54:38 AM
Then ofcourse End Of Days by Benids cuz it's like epilogue to his run.

I've just read 'End of Days' and while its pretty good I wasn't blown away. There were a couple of bits that I felt were a bit ham-fisted, all those ginger headed children. Everyone being so dark and mysterious about the underlying puzzle that Ben Urich is following. Its does form a lovely epilogue to Bendis run but didn't feel it was as strong as that run at its best.

Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 10 November, 2015, 06:19:29 AM
I think if you want the very best go for the Waid run, any of it.

I would echo this. The Mark Waid run has been one of the very best things published by Marvel in the last few years - not least because the artists Waid has been teamed up with have been so consistently superb and innovative. Be interested to see whether lightning can strike twice when he and Samnee take on the new Black Widow title. I'm not convinced Natasha is quite as interesting a character as Matt, but maybe Waid can show me otherwise.

Re: Brubaker - run starts brilliantly, gets steadily less so with every subsequent story (which means it's still pretty good till round about the Mr. Fear arc), ends on a clanger. First story's better than any of the Bendis stuff though.

As for Punisher - it's the Mike Baron stuff for me.

Thank you everyone for the recomendations plenty to get my teeth in to

Well I've started to do one of my favourite things in comics and re-read the Ann Nocenti Daredevil run. This really is the run that in many ways formed and defined what I love in mainstream American comics (in the way that 2000ad defined everything else I love in most media!). I adored it when I was first reading it as a teenager and everytime I go back to it I find more and more to enjoy.

The run is split into a number of distinct parts and I'm thinking I'll whitter on here about each section in turn, starting with the first the 'hodge podge' finding her (Ann Nocenti's that is) feet with the character... or at least thats how I always think of the issues at the start of the run 236 - 249. Reading the issues again I'm reminded how she found her feet pretty much straight away. This section is bookended by two quite brilliant stories detailing the Black Widows personal trailers against a shady Doctors 'super soliders' running amok (was the Doctor ever caught up with - in my head this happened but for the life of me I can't think where?). Both have fantastic art, as the vast majority of this section does, by Barry Windsor Smith in 236 and Keith Giffen in 247. Inbetween these two there a wonderful series of short stories one dodgy fill in issues aside (one good one too). The two, two part stories with Louis Williams, are particularly fine (whatever happened to Louis Williams? I don't remember seeing it elsewhere and it really was excellent), the Nameless One and the astonishingly good Rotgut story.

The entire section is a fantastic, evocative examination of human life trapped in the big city, the pressures and splinters it puts into the psyche. Contrasted by Daredevil a man set free by the crushing Born Again storyline that proceeded this run, pushing to keep his patch afloat and find himself in his new context. Ann Nocenti can be said to be wordy and heavy going, but I find the writing fluid and insightful. There's a lot said but none of it feels wasted.

The last two issues of this section quite possibly belong more naturally with the John Romita Jr run that starts in issue 250, setting up Matt Murdock's life back with the law. The art in these two issues is by the supreme Rick Leonardi however and so I always place it in this section. Two fantastic issues featuring Wolverine and some other brutal realities.

So there we have it Ann Nocenti doesn't start her run finding her feet, she firmly plans them square on the concrete ground and sets her stall out quite fearlessly.

A dang shame that Nocenti and writers of her era have been pushed to the side lately by the Big Two.

Quote from: Ollamh Iompróidh on 08 March, 2016, 10:28:07 PM
A dang shame that Nocenti and writers of her era have been pushed to the side lately by the Big Two.

Well to be fair while I'll be turning this thread into a Nocenti lovefest for a while her recent work at DC was pretty terrible and man did I give it a try, but it was awful!

I'm willing to be forgiving about that on account of she wasn't the first or last good writer to mysteriously start churning out garbage for DC in the last few years.

So that's why I always think of issues 236-249 being the 'hodge-podge' Ann Nocenti finding her feet stories, its cos whats to come is, simply put, the very best mainstream American comics have to offer. Forget Frank Miller, forget Mark Waid, forget Brian Bendis, issues Daredevil 250 - 266 are the definative Daredevil tale. Quite breathtakingly good.

Firstly, while those early Nocenti issues have some fantastic art in them these issues (a couple of very dodgy fill-ins aside) really benefit from having a consistant art team. In John Romita Jr the series finds its penciller supreme. The fact that he's never looked so good (I mean that quite literally) due to the exquisite inks of Al Williamson is just the icing on the cake. In Al Williamson, Daredevil as a series provides the very proof of why an inker is so very, very important to art in US comics. Klaus Janson makes Miller the artist he's remembered as being and Al Williamson similarly elevates JRJr's art to another level.

Storywise Nocenti takes the story from an exploration of the effects of New York on the human condition and examines far more closely Daredevil. His own relationship with the city and the people who define that city for him. She builds her own rogue's gallery for DD in a way that I can't remember being done so well since Stan decided some teenager from New York should fight a fella with bionic arms and some other folks. Nocenti's villians are all beautifully cast to reflect DD, no more so of course then the equisite Typhiod Mary one of the great Marvel villians of any time or character. That she does this while having the courage to use the quintessial DD villian in a more defining way than that man Miller,who introduced Kingpin as the very pinnacle of New York's crime set, is beyond respect.

The nuisances Nocenti creates with this cabal's calculated and chilling attack on a man's very heart and soul is quite sublime. That she weaves it all into a brilliant 15 part tapestry that hangs together so convincingly, without any scene that it referenial or even tired, as the tale of the fall of an utterly great led character whose fell so often before, by some masterful comic writers is her ultimate achievement here. She makes battering Matt Murdock into the ground feel fresh and new. Its been done before and since in superb stories. Its never been done as well as it is here.

Finally as if to prove her mastery of the form she produces not one, but two of the best ever uses of crossover tie-ins that I have ever read. Roger Stern's brilliant Avengers run with John Buscema suffered from two many tie-ins and that's on a book that should be able to handle them. Daredevil, when being done this way, really should suffer from such X-Men related shenanigans, but it doesn't, Nocenti uses both a Fall of the Mutants tie and an three part Inferno ties to perfectly enhance her story. In the former she explores the impact of the events on the people and the city she's exploring. In the later over three masterful issues she grasps the tail of this demonic story and whips it into shape as a lens through which to examine the effects on a man's soul of his own actions and to return to her previous theme of the impact of life in the city on the human psychology. Really its never been done close to this well.

So yeah after the 16 issues, we don't get a redemption, or return to form by sheer will power and guts as American comics so often give us, rather in an almost 2000adesque way we get a shattered man, trapped by the world, his own demons and the self destructive passion of others, desperately trying to escape both literally and mentally. Which sets up what's next.

If you haven't read these comics and like American Mainstream nonsense on any level buy them they have almost never been matched, if they ever have, before or since...

... can you tell I like 'um!

It's all about Daredevil on ComiXology this morning.
Waid's entire run for a Euro an issue as well as collections by Miller, Brubaker, Bendis & Smith for €3.99.
I've just blown my last Christmas iTunes voucher.

The Elektra collection by Blackman & Del Mundo looks absolutely gorgeous from the few pages I've read.
Been meaning to pick this up for a while.

Quote from: Link Prime on 14 March, 2016, 11:08:39 AM
The Elektra collection by Blackman & Del Mundo looks absolutely gorgeous from the few pages I've read.
Been meaning to pick this up for a while.

It's gorgeous throughout, dive in  :)

So we get to the 'awkward' middle phase of Ann Nocenti's DD run, issues 267 - 277. Its my understanding that these issues are not as well regarded as the rest of the run (I might be wrong) and while I'm not as big a fan of these issues as those that preceded them they are still quite superb.

We start off with a beaten and broken Matt Murdock leaving New York, trying to avoid thinking of the things that have happened to him and the people he is abandoning. It sets the tone for this phase, about identity and what makes people (and others!) who they are, what shapes them and what influences define and even destroy them. Its all absolutely fascinating stuff.

A bit of me wishes the Matt Murdock stranger in a strange town stuff had carried on longer than it did, as issues 268 and 269 are quite superb, 268 in-particular, Matt hiding in the lives of others to escape his own, as he moves from town to town, Alas 270 kinda has him suddenly feeling more chipper in an issue that is more about setting up whats to in the future (in issues 278 - 282) before we crash into a supremely under-rated arc that can feel a little loose and ill defined until read as one.

There's a lot going on in issues 271 - 276 as Matt crosses paths with an animal rights activist, determined to bring down her father's dark government experimental farm, which releases the cloned 'perfect' woman Number 9, who is tracked down by a gun and hardware obsessed agent, while in the background the Inhumans bicker before turning up just in time for everyone to confront a Doctor Doom* revitalized Ultron, as Nocenti shows once again there's no one quite like her at using company wide cross-overs to enhance the themes she's creating rather than allow them to derail them... phew all that in just 6 issues. Yet it all fits together wonderfully.

Each of the characters, Brandy and her dodgy Dad, the Inhuman's, Number 9, Ultron serve to reflect the search for identity beyond those that make you or 'rule' you, just as Daredevil is trying to redefine his life shattered by others, well with a little helping had from the ever self destructive Mr Murdock himself of course.

It all ends magnificently with Ultron talking himself and us through those themes. Its said this phase is heavy handed, its not. Its said they are preachy, they aren't. They just have themes and ideas and use the glorious hyper-reality of superhero shenanigans to bring them to exaggerated life. So why aren't these issues as good as what's gone before, well simply as not every arc in this run can be the very best comics mainstream (well big two) have put out not written by Jack Kirby... so ya know they only fail by a facing a ridiculously high benchmark!

Its all wrapped up by a fantastic fill in issue, which sits with the Matt Murdock lone stranger stuff, drawn supremely by Rick Leonardi.

So yeah Matt seems to be finding himself again towards the end of this phase, but where does the devil truly have to go to redeem himself. Why Hell of course and so Ann Nocenti, John Romita Jr and Al Williamson decide to do just that, literally next and boy do these issues deserve their own bit of Taylorwittering...

*Love the way Doc D foreshadows how his plot to defeat DD using Ultron will ultimately fail in his opening monologue.

Enjoying reading your take on the Nocenti era, Colin - you're aware I enjoyed the run too, but it's been an age since I dug them out and read 'em. Is much of this stuff collected, bar the Typhoid Mary stories? I look forward to your next post, as it's the 'hell' stuff that's really stayed with me - Romita Jr's Mephisto is the Mephisto for me, and Blackheart is, like Sienkiewicz's Magus or Warlock, one of those characters that only seems to look right when drawn by his creator.

Issue 277 is one of my absolute favourites though. Reading that at the time (aged 13, I guess) it felt like it was coming from a very different place than many of the comics I was used to. It fascinated me, even if I wasn't totally sure I got it.

Alas to my knowledge very little is out in trade. There is the 'Lone Stranger' collection which weirdly straddles this section of the run (as I see it) reprinting 265 - 273. So if that's correct (its as listed on Amazon I don't own it) it includes the last of the Inferno cross-over and then the leaving New York and Brandy / The Farm / Shotgun stuff but will leave some pretty major threads dangling without the Ultron tidy up.

It would also seem the Epic Collection will fill the gaps but that's gonna take years . They have done a Typhiod Mary collection which covers 253 - 270, but heavens knows when they'll get back to more Nocenti stuff as they seem to come out every 6 months or so and cover the entire original series. Since DD has so many gaps in this reprinted history (pretty much everything aside the Miller stuff) they have a lot to get through!

Yeah 277 is a beaut. For me though it doesn't top 266, Beer with the Devil, which of all this run - which I was finding pretty mind blowing as a mid to late teenager - was the issue that really made me stand up and realise quite what an 'American'* comic could be!

I didn't see Animal Man, this runs contemporary, as a 'real' American comic as it was by Grant Morrison and in my head then 2000ad in the wrong format!

Well I've read Daredevil in Hell tonight (issues 278 - 282) and its as good as I remember, it really is something utterly different*, you could never say refreshing, but maybe invigourating is a better word. It feels such a natural progression for the run to date and has so many echos of whats gone before. Now Blackheart is trapped trying to impotently escape the influence if his father, or so it seems. Daredevil has to revisit the runs early theme of the violence in his life that so frightened Karen and was, at first justified. Everyone tries to find who they are and what defines them as people.

The glory here is how Nocenti and co twist these echos to make them fresh. The son defies his father, having observed humankind to trap them in Mephisto's idea of evil he learns and grows from them and becomes a changed evil Nocenti has observed. Mephisto is in fact impotent to resist this and while he still slumbers large and immovible the new will forever torment him. Daredevil of course finds that his real strenght doesn't come from his fists but the hope he represents. All our characters discover that the endless climb to perfection isn't human, or indeed inhuman, rather they must accept and embrace their own flaws and still do what's right... or the best they can. Or discover that they can't find themselves, or understand their perfection in the light of others, but rather have to search for it themselves.

Its all wonderful, wonderful stuff and each time I return to it I get something else. Just brilliant. I love the way Nocenti ensures there's a price to pay and ashs to ashs holds true but she sends a cosmic angel into the eternal battle to ensure that balance is maintained and the devil (the other one not the Dare one) pays his due.

Its been suggested that Daredevil has of course been in Hell since the Inferno storyline and that could certainly be said to hold on a full re-read. I however prefer the more literal reading, that while he was in a hell of his own making prior to this he had to be cast to a deeper hell to escape his own 9 levels. Either way the journey is just exquisite in its torture.

Alas with this we lose John Romita Jr after what is surely the greatest work he will ever do. BUT Al Williamson remains and Lee Weeks joins for Nocenti's final arc... so all is good in the world of Matt Murduck... well except of course the world of Matt Murdock is at its best when he's in...

*Well it would be in any other run by Marvel or DC, here its right at home.

One of my favourite bits of Daredevil in Hell is the use of the Silver Surfer. When you're well-immersed in comics lore, you forget how ridiculous the shiny man on the space-plank seems to others, but his guest appearance in this arc is one of his very best. You really get a sense of him as less a person, more a kind of cosmic force, and his clash with Mephisto gives you a sense of what it might be like to be a hapless mortal caught betwixt warring titans. I love the way Romita Jr draws him, with the power cosmic flowing free.

So the Daredevils been to hell and John Romita Jr has gone, what could be left, surely things can't continue to the standard they've maintained this far.Well in wrapping up her run, joined largely by Lee Weeks, Nocenti sends Matt back to New York at last and frankly almost saves the best for last. After a quite wonderful fill in 283  (let down a little by the art), which tackles America's identity rather than the characters, we get an absolutely fantastic final arc in issues 284 - 290.

The events of Nocenti's epic run really hit home, having put Matt through so much, on returning him to his home she completely pulls him part, the toll of the turmur he's been through finally completely stripping him of who he is and Daredevil literally loses his mind and memories. Luckly for us the reader, if not Matt and New York, Bullseye is on hand to pick up the pieces and take over the role of Daredevil as Matt Murdock explores his past to try to determine who he is and what that means. Behind all this the Kingpin of course plots and continues this endless hunt for our heroes final downfall, again taking aim at the man's soul rather than the body.

As with previous stories in this glorious run Nocenti returns to fimilar themes. In switching roles both Bullseye and Daredevil explore what it is that makes them who they are, identity is central to this arc, as it is almost all that has gone before. Matt Murduck (using the identity of Jack Murdock) hunts unwittingly through his past, while Bullseye realises that being Daredevil, even to tarnish his image is a damned sight more complex that it appears. She (Nocenti) also explores the complexity of good and evil, making clear that few people are simply good or evil, but that angels have horns and devils have wings. It all ends in a typically, but beautifully realised showdown. Its glorious stuff, particularly the episodes drawn by Lee Weeks.

So all that is left is a supreme summary of her time with Daredevil in issue 291, and not only one of Daredevils best runs, in fact probably its best (well wait until I reread Mark Waid's run!) but one of mainstream comics best ever concludes. Nocenti's run is an absolute truimph as its so unashamedly a traditional suoerhero comic, but uses that platform to explore complex ideas and themes in a way rarely (if ever) done up to that point, and not often, if ever, bettered since. She's shows a real courage in stretching both Daredevil and mainstream superhero comics to their absolute limit, throwing ideas with conviction and imagination but always, always remembering what she's doing. Its a writer showing either masterful confidence, or a carefree attitude, probably both, either way its an absolute success. Nocenti has a little luck in that for almost the entire time on the comic she's joined by brilliant artists, Al Willimason's sublime inks creating a uniformity for the last 40 issues or so.

If you've not read this run and think Frank Miller defines Daredevil, read this and think again and marvel at the way Ann Nocenti uses some of the most powerful storytelling to truly explore Matt Murduck's identity, that of the city he loves, the psychology of heroes and villians and the people they affect and those that watch and those that manipulate. Ann Nocenti really does define Daredevil, taking over from one of the most heralded runs in any comic (Frank Miller's Born Again) she showed she was the writer without fear.

Its been a while since I pester you lot with my Daredevil fetish but I'm just starting a re-read of Ed Brubaker's, largely with Michael Lark, first time since these first came out I think?

Anyway we start were Bendis left us with Matt locked up for the crime of being Daredevil and the folks in prison lining up to work over (in various ways) the man who put most of them there. Brubaker of coures looks like the perfect DD writer and he shows why here. Okay you can't look too closely at the plot, I mean would this happen, would they really do that... mind since this is a Marvel Superhero comic even if it is DD that should be a given... but its truly gripping stuff. Expertly timed, thrilling ploted (see above if a bit silly) and compelling.

Michael Larks gritty art perfect for the grim tone the tales tells and overall this is a good a start to this run as I remember it being. Of course its not Nocenti good (see below) but its certainly as good as the Bendis stuff.

So the second half of Brubaker's epic first storyline with DD out of prison and chasing down the person behind his continuing woes leads to a wonderfully engaging labyrithine tale of foes and woes which all boils down to putting fear into the man without... any of that ... fear that is.

Its good stuff, even if it doesn't quite hold up to the prison stuff. Its still very good. That however is not why I'm here. Rather I'm here to talk about the aftermath of that story held in the trade 'Cruel and Unusual' a fine story indeed. The story of Matt Murduck a man destroyed and beyond hope pulled back trying to save an evil man behold hope on death row and for once innocnet. Okay so the crme caper doesn't quite hold up to close scrutiny. It does hold together though 'cos it bowls you through and bowls over with some great characters and some nice distraction so you don't look too close.

Its cracking stuff with Brubaker joined by his old lacky Rucka (and Michael Lark) and I really enjoyed this one. If for no other reason that they seemed to break the DD trope of driving him further and further down a path of self destruction after the death / betrayl / losing a loved one. I mean its not like he's handling things well BUT for now at least this hope against the hopeless. This tale of Matt Murdock saving someone beyond hope, even if he can't save other's, even if it is Brubaker and Rucka by the numbers is really refreshing and actually possibly the highlight of this run.

Once again I've been ignoring the woes of Matt Murdock BUT finally got around to a long time coming re-re-re-re-re-read of Frank Miller and Klaus Janson's run (well up to the end of the Angel Dust arc at least).

Anyway I thought I'd been pretty down on that run in this thread on a number of occasions and the last couple of times I've read it I don't think its held up too well and hasn't aged as well as the Nocenti run a few years later. Well that still holds but this time, reading my digital copies for the first time, I actually think it hold up better than I remember.

Firstly its still visually as stunning as ever and Miller greatly enhanched by Janson's perfect noir inks does some stunning, simply stunning work. Its visually inventive and the storytelling is second to none. The Eisner influences are many fold and clear, but if you are going to wear your influences so clearly on your sleeves you could choice a lot wore.

Storywise it is more creaky and while its still nicely plotted, dramatic and exciting it suffers from having so much influence on works that have been able to build on what its done, but learning and able to aim at an older more developed audience. It can feel hocky at time... but a good kinda hocky.

So yes I'm very pleased I've read this again. Will be picking up the bits I'm missing and over all hold up better this time than it has on recent re-reads.

Okay so re-read the whole Mark Waid run, with a host of wonderful artists, most notably Chros Samnee and I'm ready to make the call. Its a tough call but its gotta be made, so ... well ya know nerds and lists so here you go...

... ready...

Nocenti >Waid.

Now these are two mighty titans and the Waid run is just brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.Probably my favourite mainstream (DC / Marvel) is probably (possibly) my favourite of the 21st Century - certainly given the Wally West Flash run doesn't really count for that being mainly a late 80s 90s title. Anyway Waid immerses himself in Matt and in a number of really tight, well plotted archs really, quite breathtakingly keeps the tension going. Its series of tales just relentlessly build excitment, release, builds excitment release, builds excitment - release. The longer stories that run across these mini-masterpieces for the same. The run as a whole does the same.

Its just the best paper turner ever. While managing to be whipsmart and a wonderful character piece at the same time.

Just glorious.

So why does Nocenti top it. If only just. Similar Waid's run so so solidly in the superhero genre and world. Its a supreme example of the form. Nocenti stretches things a little more. Nocenti is bolder and just shakes your expectations. Waid meets your expectations perfectly time and again its not got the chaotic innovation and fearlessnes of Nocenti's masterpiece.

I've only dipped in and out of Daredevil over the decades (Miller, Brubaker, Waid mainly), having come to him late through an X-Factor / Apocalypse crossover in some Marvel UK weekly, but Colin your deep ruminations on this thread make me want to take on a read of the whole thing. Keep it up!

I'll need to re-read the Waid run, to see if it's still as impressive and exciting as I found it at the time. At present, it's looking like Waid's last great work - he's had a lot of misfires since then, with the best of his post-Daredevil writing being merely 'ok'.

I've not read much Waid after this run - for no reason other than I'm not reading much superhero stuff at all and he's not done a title I'm interesting in since this - well was tempted by his Black Widow but for whatever reason just haven't got to it. Anyway he's done some superb stuff prior to this - his track record is hard to match - but for all that this is indeed his magnum opus.

So on another point I've decided on my all time top DD runs (by writer largely though a number of artist have played a significent part to each of these runs) list and its:

Nocenti > Waid >>> Bendis > Brubaker > Miller + Janson* >>>> everything else

*[Normalfontsize] I'm excluding 'Born Again' here as its possibly the best DD story ever but at only 7 issues I don't think it counts as a 'run' and brilliant as it is I don't want to add it to this big run as it'd muddy the waters. [/Normalfontsize]

So had the first volume of Daredevil - Back in Black by Charles Soule and Ron Garney - hmmm. As this thread will testify I'm a big DD fan. Even now when I'm largely off the superheroics (sure I'll bounce back into them, I've done it before) whenever I read good DD I'm straight back in there and there's a lot of good DD out there. And that might be the problem this team face.

I mean its not bad. Its trying to shake things up, Daredevil is back in his black costume - from a period I must admit I've never bothered with and from the little I've read I have no desire to. Matt is back in the box a secret. DD has a side kick whose all cool and mysterious and there's a new villain... with... errr.... 10 fingers on each hand... cos... ten fingers I guess. Apparently it means he can have more triggers on his gun.... which makes it... more trigger... oh and he's stolen from the Hand and the Hand won't stand for that. And we know the Hand mean trouble as DD and Matt has smacked their ass more time than you can shake a Stick at (see what I did there).... and well its all cool and gritty and so Daredevil... its just I don't really care.

None of the things that are done seem to be done for any reason other than to try to do something new with Matt and DD. There's nothing to care about here and nothing to grab me and make me want to read more. Nothing new. Is that 'cos I've so much DD. Is this cos I'm jaded on superheroes in general. Is it cos none of the elements specifically resonate with me. Or is it cos it decidely average modern comics with nothing really to say and so pretty weak writing at times. A boss who doesn't think Matt will work - until he blames him for having a key witness broken out of jail - he's a DA now see - which he had absolutely no control over AND then the boss reverses what he said before saying he expected great things from Matt. Is it the lame pointless villain who offers nothing. Is it the fact that there is no sense of why all these changes exist in Matt's life other than to try to do something different?

Its all a bit lumpy unnecessary and I can't see myself trying any more - though I'm sure a Comixology sale will make a lair out of me there at some point. Is the Chip Zdarsky stuff any good? I hear good rumblings?

Like you Colin, I seem always to come back to DD and get sucked in. I probably have OCDDD, as I find myself with a shortbox full of DD runs that have been started, then abandoned, and a whole shelf of the trades when I find the back issues have gone out of my price range.

The Soule series was at the time a let-down after the glories of the Waid/ Samnee years, and i admit to being in the position only now to slowly filling in the later issues (i think I'm about ten off the set)- but the Zdarskey run... oh my word. It's sheer bliss. Without a doubt the best book Marvel are putting out at the moment (with the cautionary word that I'm only now catching up on Slott's FF, and that it may come down to a fist fight between the two).

I have little experience of Zdarskey elsewhere- other than his Peter Parker series, which was okay, and his Spidey: Life Story six-parter, which was unquestionably the best Spidey since the first 'Superior'. So his take on DD is, for me, all the more astonishing.

He even managed to make the corporate-mandated 'King In Black' tie-in issues at least readable, even if they had the air of a grumpily executed "just get this crap done so we can move on with the story I'm actually telling".

Be warned though, that many of the early issues of Zdarskey's series are now commanding stupid prices even in second and third printings- if I hadn't committed to filling in the gaps (four away I think), i would have gone for the trades... but you know how it is.

SBT

Oh that's interesting - I'll check that out at some point. I know the prices went ballistic when [spoiler]Elektra became DD[/spoiler] but fortunately for whatever reason I'm happy to get Daredevil in trades and even Digital these days - I've been eyeing up Daredevil by Frank Miller box set - it pricey but there's some stuff there I've not got anymore or have old editions of and it does look like a lovely presentation and to have all this stuff in a consistant format is very. very tempting. Well except for my precious Nocenti run which I treasure - I I do that this will be like the fourth format I've own many of these comics in!

ANYWAY all that to say cool - next time there's a digital sale I'll pick up the Zdarskey run and give it a try.

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 14 April, 2021, 09:06:03 PM
Its all a bit lumpy unnecessary and I can't see myself trying any more - though I'm sure a Comixology sale will make a lair out of me there at some point. Is the Chip Zdarsky stuff any good? I hear good rumblings?

He's got a good handle on the character. Well worth picking up.

I've only gone and done it... I don't learn me. I've owned Frank Miller DD stuff in maybe 3 formats to date. Original comics (well most of them). Sold.

The old omnibus - Sold.

Now have them digital.

Then I see them available in a lovely trade collection box set. They really looked super. But they were expensive and I do have this weird love hate relationship with the Miller run BUT this really was a complete set of EVERYTHING with a glorious companion book and where as the omnibus was uncomfortable to read this has the neatness of an omnibus but in a nice to read format AND all the Electra stuff  and everything.

Its beautiful.

But I didn't need it so I left it for about a week and half cos there was no way I needed to buy this...

... it smells nice too let me tell you ... and well ya know I got it at a cheaper price... and I can sell my trades of the stuff I have physically still... and it'll become saleable when I decide I don't need this... again...

... oh God I'm sorry... wish this was lovely boxset of the Nocenti run that I could justify...

Got a link for that Miller box set Col?

This is the cheapest I could find it (I have no moral compass when it comes to comics!)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Frank-Miller/e/B000AP9LKU?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_2&qid=1619125252&sr=8-2 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Frank-Miller/e/B000AP9LKU?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_2&qid=1619125252&sr=8-2)

Here's the video I watched - yes I watched all 20 minutes of this WHILE ONH HOLIDAY WITH MY FAMILY which haunted my dreams until it broken me

https://youtu.be/mqVNwT1h61o (https://youtu.be/mqVNwT1h61o)

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 22 April, 2021, 10:03:39 PM
(I have no moral compass when it comes to comics!)

Nor should you.

Thanks to your wayfinder I have been considering plugging the Elektra sized gap in my collection instead.
Complete Miller Elektra omnibus collection, for a very decent price;

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Elektra-Frank-Miller-Omnibus-Printing/dp/0785195564/ref=sr_1_1?crid=20E0RY4A2JZND&dchild=1&keywords=frank+miller+elektra&qid=1619511849&sprefix=frmak+miller+elektra%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-1

Quote from: Link Prime on 27 April, 2021, 09:28:21 AM
Complete Miller Elektra omnibus collection, for a very decent price

Elektra Lives Again is peak Miller/Varley. As a story, it's pretty thin but, my God, it's gorgeous and Miller's use of the medium itself for storytelling is breathtaking.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 27 April, 2021, 09:53:53 AM

Quote from: Link Prime on 27 April, 2021, 09:28:21 AM
Complete Miller Elektra omnibus collection, for a very decent price

Elektra Lives Again is peak Miller/Varley. As a story, it's pretty thin but, my God, it's gorgeous and Miller's use of the medium itself for storytelling is breathtaking.

I'm going to be controversial here and while I accept Miller is a wonderful storyteller, and learnt a lot from Eisner in his 'cinematic' approach to his tales telling I don't like his work inked by himself anywhere near as much as when inked by Klaus Janson. I've said before and I'll say again no doubt Klaus Janson is the very definition of why an inker is so much more than a tracer and elevates the astonishingly good layouts of Miller to something else again.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 27 April, 2021, 09:53:53 AM

Quote from: Link Prime on 27 April, 2021, 09:28:21 AM
Complete Miller Elektra omnibus collection, for a very decent price

Elektra Lives Again is peak Miller/Varley. As a story, it's pretty thin but, my God, it's gorgeous and Miller's use of the medium itself for storytelling is breathtaking.

Never actually read this but the first three pages of Elektra: Assassin have more interesting ideas about how to use a comic page to convey information and tell a story than I can count. It's a far better showcase of the possibilities of the medium than, say, Watchmen.

Quote from: I, Cosh on 27 April, 2021, 12:44:25 PM
Never actually read this but the first three pages of Elektra: Assassin have more interesting ideas about how to use a comic page to convey information and tell a story than I can count. It's a far better showcase of the possibilities of the medium than, say, Watchmen.

That first issue of Elektra: Assassin is just astonishing from start to finish. It's hard to remember just how divisive it was at launch... it felt like it was rebuilding much of the underlying stuff that makes comics work and it turned out that quite a lot of people liked their comics safer and cosier than that...

I've not read Elektra Assassin in years. No idea why, it was an absolute fav back in the day and I still have my original copy - of thr trade - never quite being able to let it go. I spent hours wondering whether there was any point even trying to try to replicate the art, but couldn't even begin to know how to start. I seem to remember having a go in pencil crayon... it didn't go well.

I always wondered why this wasn't hailed as much as Dark Knight and others of that era and it really felt innovative to me back then and melted my teenage mind.

Mind if you like Bill Sienkiewicz stuff in Elektra and you haven't read 'Daredevil - Love and War' you should its (almost) as good.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 27 April, 2021, 12:47:50 PM

Quote from: I, Cosh on 27 April, 2021, 12:44:25 PM
Never actually read this but the first three pages of Elektra: Assassin have more interesting ideas about how to use a comic page to convey information and tell a story than I can count. It's a far better showcase of the possibilities of the medium than, say, Watchmen.

That first issue of Elektra: Assassin is just astonishing from start to finish. It's hard to remember just how divisive it was at launch... it felt like it was rebuilding much of the underlying stuff that makes comics work and it turned out that quite a lot of people liked their comics safer and cosier than that...

I never read all of it, and found it has always been difficult to get in print, so the new edition hardback purchase was a no-brainer. Arriving in time for the weekend.

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 27 April, 2021, 05:44:23 PM
Mind if you like Bill Sienkiewicz stuff in Elektra and you haven't read 'Daredevil - Love and War' you should its (almost) as good.

An overlooked classic.

I quit bothering with Elektra Assassin after the first issue. I hated disjointed storytelling Miller employed and Sienkewicz (inconsistent) art doesn't work for me. But I may try it one day. I love Miller DD, btw.

Quote from: milstar on 28 April, 2021, 10:52:57 AM
I hated disjointed storytelling Miller employed and Sienkewicz (inconsistent) art doesn't work for me.

It's not inconsistent, though — it switches styles very deliberately to match the story. If you don't like the non-linear narrative, I can absolutely see how it wouldn't work for you, but I don't think 'inconsistent' is fair.

FWIW, later episodes deploy a much more straightforward storytelling style and Sienkiewicz' art reflects that. And a lot of it is lovely.

i loved it so much. but i find miller impossible to stomach these days, given, y'know, certain pronouncements. it's just too difficult to go back and read his work - all of which, on some level, was always politically charged - without wondering whether i got it all wrong as a young man, and actually maybe something much more disturbing and insidious might have been at work there. might. but very might.

Dark Knight Returns is a right-wing power fantasy and stuff like Born Again plays into that to an extent.

He's a man who has had a lot of problems, but I understand that now he's sober he has moderated his views.

current Daredevil is fantastic

Marco Checchetto's art is amazing

Yeah, Zdarsky Daredevil is great. I'm very much looking forward to reading the issues I've missed during lockdown.