2000 AD Online Forum

I hadn't read 2000AD since I was 14, 12 years ago so when I subscribed recently to the Megazine I assumed it would have moved on somewhat in those 12 years. Last months Meg was promising but this months is very disappointing. The Anderson story was good, with excellent artwork, but the rest wasn't up to much. The chess story was just childish, with comic-like art, as was the Cookie story. 2000AD and the Meg aren't moving with the times, they are aiming the stories apparently at children rather than adults. Batman started to change years ago and got darker and more realistic - Dredd seems to have gone the other way. Has there ever been a Dredd graphic novel ONLY for adults, i.e. with an age rating? Isn't it about time Rebellion started to use the characters to try and reach the ADULT comic fans who enjoy the more realistic stories?
Am I the only one who thinks this? Do people over 25 really still enjoy reading things like Cookie and Master Moves? Wouldn't you rather see something even a little more mature like Batman's "Killing Joke"? Couldn't they aim 2000AD at adults and the Meg at kids/everyone? I don't want to subscribe to a magazine which I can only enjoy half of the stories, while feeling frankly embarrassed to be reading something like Cookie with it's Whizzer and Chips style art.

I'm tired, and frankly, I can't really be bothered with writing too much, so:

"2000AD and the Meg aren't moving with the times, they are aiming the stories apparently at children rather than adults"

What "times" are these? The "times" that say that comics should all aim at a perceived adult readership? Nice way to kill the medium...

I disagree that 2000AD/Meg are doing this anyway, but onto:

"Has there ever been a Dredd graphic novel ONLY for adults, i.e. with an age rating?"

AFAIK, no. The only thing that comes close is the out-of-print Heavy Metal Dredd collection. Not a great example...

"Isn't it about time Rebellion started to use the characters to try and reach the ADULT comic fans who enjoy the more realistic stories?"

No. There are plenty of "realistic" comics out there, and I don't see why 2000AD should try and cater to a market that is, if anything, oversaturated already.

" Am I the only one who thinks this?"

Possibly ;-)

"Do people over 25 really still enjoy reading things like Cookie and Master Moves?"

Well, I'm 24 & I loved both. Maybe when I turn 25 I'll change my mind, but I can't see any reason why I should. The two tales were light-hearted, entertaining short stories with absolutely gorgeous art.

"Wouldn't you rather see something even a little more mature like Batman's "Killing Joke"?"

Well, if a good "mature" strip that suits the 2000AD mold comes along, I'd be delighted to see it (just as I was delighted to read all three Button Man stories). In the meantime, I've got plenty of other "mature" comics to read outside 2000AD.

"Couldn't they aim 2000AD at adults and the Meg at kids/everyone?"

I'd quite like to see an "all-ages" approach in 2000AD (after all, this was the same approach that gave us classics like Halo Jones...) with the Meg left as it is, but IMO, both comics are working pretty damn well at the moment, and I'd be loathe to see them fucked about.

"I don't want to subscribe to a magazine which I can only enjoy half of the stories"

Then don't. If you don't enjoy it, don't buy it. Life's too short to spend it reading something you don't enjoy, or to come here and complain about it.

Way I see it 2000AD was always aimed at children (except I saw on ebay 2000AD attempted an 'adult' title a few yrs back).

We need adult titles? I'm 24 as well, but I still enjoyed a number of movies aimed at 'children'- Toy Story 1&2,  Beauty and the Beast, Empire Strikes back etc, and a number of books aimed at younger audiences- Dark Materials trilogy, Ender's Game to name but 2. Just because a title is aimed at younger audiences doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed by adults.

The dark knight has gotten darker since the '70s but be honest- there aren't that many titles in its line that are designated 'Mature Readers only' - let's see The Cult, The Killing Joke, possibly Arkham Asylum and DKR.

Be honest- you don't want mature audiences only titles (look at the recently defunct Marvel Max line), you just want a darker take on Dredd rather than the campy satirical robocope-esque Dredd you see every week. If I'm brutally honset, I'd like to see one or two stories in this direction as well along with a few other styles of writing entertained, but I'd still like a reasonable proportion of 'black humour' Dredd as well.

>I don't want to subscribe to a magazine which I can only enjoy half of the stories, while feeling frankly embarrassed to be reading something like Cookie with it's Whizzer and Chips style art.

I think the megazines the best it?s ever been and I?m in my 30?s. If you don?t enjoy it cancel your order but for me it?s the highlight of the month.

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

I don't know, what do you mean by adult?  'Adult' and 'Mature Readers' tags don't mean they actualy take an adult view of the world, simply that they might offend the parents of child readers.

I think that a lot of 2000AD and the Megazine are adult in the best sense, in that they are intelligently written, often using innovative art.  And they are playfully childish in the best sense too.  

Of course, that it the best of the stories.  Some are childish in the worst sense, in that they are seemingly written for stupid people (or by stupid people).  And some are adult in the worst sense, attempting to titillate with sex and violence.  Some combine both.

Happily, I do happen to believe that 2000AD and the Megazine is on a high, content wise, at the moment.

Theres been plenty of dark Dredd stories anyway, and plenty that are written with adult readers in mind.
Maybe not allways in their immediate theme, but in the quality of the writing or the style of the art.
(Id come up with examples, but im tired and cant be arsed!)

Personally, i like the way that 2000AD and the Meg mix this with more, (for want of a better way of putting it), family oriented strips.
After all, i dont want to be an adult 24 hours a day! ;)

Out of interest, GB, what did you think of Judge Dredd - LOTF?

"After all, i dont want to be an adult 24 hours a day! ;)"


I dont mean that in a kinky sex kind of way, either! :$

You know, I'd be interested in your response to next months lead story in the Meg. If it's anything like the last Cursed Earth story from the Wagner and Ridgeway team ('Radlander' from the end of V4) then it might be more to your taste.

For the record I really enjoyed both stories you mentioned. 'Master Moves' is a great story that I think will stand the test of time. The art on both stories was exceptional.

 For mine, it`s better to have stories which are a bit of fun, like the Cookie story, than stories which bust a gut trying to be adult and only succeed in looking pseudy, as sometimes happens.
  Was the Andersen story adult enough for you? I think that was non-childish without pretension

yours 41andenjoyingtheMegane

Floyd

i just asked one of my children, is 2000ad & the megazine childish. They said no.

especially the stim bed, not that i showed them that scene... mummy whys that lady got pipes stuck to her nipples & her hand between her legs?

"2000AD and the Meg aren't moving with the times, they are aiming the stories apparently at children rather than adults"

2000ad has sadly lost touch with its golden years, i think things are planned too far ahead now - even when EGMONT was in control u got the impression they were scrambling around trying to look for something new or make something they already had look decent but they just werent succeeding on a tight budget

maybe its bcos REBELLION are used to computer games where hype is built up and release dates slip but a lot of the stories are mentioned in advance rarely living up to expectations

the american comics market is aimed at 14 to 24 year olds and established readers (some of whom are 40 plus), 2000ad seems to be aimed at a whoever it is aimed at???

things used to move so much quicker, a new story could appear and blow u away - that doesnt happen very often anymore

"Has there ever been a Dredd graphic novel ONLY for adults, i.e. with an age rating?"

ANDERSON is quite mature and thats about as close as it gets - DEVLIN WAUGH was quite good but im not sure how popular, there is the odd tale but as a rule dredd has become an in-joke, i never him up until the mid 80s and then they did a lot of work on him now hes just always been there, he is actually a walk on role to the supporting cast as hes a 2d character and any attempts to flesh him out are rarely acknwledged

"Isn't it about time Rebellion started to use the characters to try and reach the ADULT comic fans who enjoy the more realistic stories?"

u have to be careful with the word 'adult' in comics as it doesnt always mean what u think, a lot of dross carries this banner - the usa market is speculation led but 2000ad is standing alone in a market of 1, there is no competition, it can do anything it wants - there is no battle, eagle or anthing

" Am I the only one who thinks this?"

i would like to see better stories but sadly writers like to flesh out simple ideas these days, im not sure if they are paid less but 2000ad is rarely their best work and they are still poached by america - ever more frequently in fact

"Do people over 25 really still enjoy reading things like Cookie and Master Moves?"

i didnt, not really but posting dissent on this board creates a funny reaction

"Wouldn't you rather see something even a little more mature like Batman's "Killing Joke"?"

yep, but alan moores retired

"Couldn't they aim 2000AD at adults and the Meg at kids/everyone?"

it has traditionally been aimed at everyone, although i think its a testament to charleys war that a 12 year old strip has made the new material alongside it look like filler in comparison, there has definitely been a gradual dumbing down since prog 600 onwards with few mega epics after that, the ones after 900 dont seem to have a point to them - we havent had many stories like halo jones in the years since, it just depends if its worth your while waiting for a few years till the next the last was probably snow/tiger, a love like blood and carver hale - as usual none were very well received but then neither was halo first time around

"I don't want to subscribe to a magazine which I can only enjoy half of the stories"

i have stopped my subscription so they cant get away with fobbing me off with filler like the autumn offensive again

changing the thread slightly...there was a serious novel about Tintin a few years back. Did anyone here read it?
 WOuld such a novel about Dredd be popular? Not just a novel-of-the-comic, but a long thoughtful novel? It`s an interesting thought.

well - i did quite like the DARE 4 parter that appeared in MREVOLVER and MONSTER books a few years back

but it was only good bcos it was really different to everyhting before, i dont think id like a permanent like that (and it wasnt oustandingly brill, just a little bit good)

Got to say the Cookie story this month was shite.
Sorry it STUNK.
Could have been quite good, after all the premis is amusing but the script was dull and lifless.

Love the artwork though!
Can't remember his name but LOVED the Dr.Who bithday story he did a couple of years ago with the Biege Guardian.

 Got to go, new baby crying!

Is 2000AD childish?Probably yes,and thats why I enjoy it.
For half an hour each week I get to regress and visit childhood chums like Dredd,Stronty and Rogue.
I also read the more "adult" comics such as The Unfunnies,100 Bullets and Y the last man and very much enjoy them, but for me thats not 2000AD or the MEG's job.

 It all depends what you mean by adult, recent  stories such as Xtnct, Anderson, Leviathon, Dante, the ongoing Dredd story lines,  all feel like they are aimed at a slightly older audience. Personally I don't mind who a storys perceived to be aimed at as long as it's good.
 I'm an occassional batman fan and have to say the mature titles named: the Cult, Arkham Asylum, even the Killing Joke are all vastly overated, and whne compared to the Alan grant Detective Comics being published at roughly the same time don;t compare too well.
 even the much vaunted Dark Knight returns is, at best just quite good spawning a pants sequal.
 Compare it to the best recent Dredd: the bloodline stories, the  Pit, sin City and as an adult I know which I find more mature.
 I also have a great deal of distaste for the threat of sexual violence that appears to be neccesary for a mature comic: see every yank Mark Millar comic, Frank Millers bizzare treatment of women, the Killing Jokes treatment of Batgirl ad nauseum. Its not something I find entertaining and for me reading is an intimate medium and I dont want to read about rape as an entertainment.
I am aware this leads me wide open for an attack on being happy to be ebtertained by violence, but what you feel to ward a subject isn't always logical.

Jim

id say your post leaves u more open to attack based on your opinions regarding batman
IMO of course :o)

The problem is, as others have said, in the word "mature" - it could mean grown-up, it could also mean "Available from specialist bookshops only".  Unfortunately, in comics it doesn't seem as though editors and writers are very good at telling the one from the other (hence Babe Race 3000).

I'd argue that childishness is actually an integral part of science fiction.  It's inevitable in that our society defines the sort of wide-eyed imagination that goes into imagining future/alternate worlds as a childish quality.  Look at the way futurologists are treated in the press as an example.  Just like a child, science fiction is far more complicated than its image, and again just like a child it contains violent and sick imaginings as well as the innocence or unworldliness we ascribe to it.

You seem to have set up a dichotomy between, on the one side, realism/darkness/maturity and, on the other, fantasy/humour/childishness.  The strength of the Rebellion-owned 2000AD group at the moment is precisely that it combines both of these, and combines them pretty well.  You couldn't get darker or more realistic than the Bendatti Vendetta or Charley's War, or sillier and more cartoony than Bec n Kawl or Lobster random.  The attraction is precisely in setting these stories side-by-side.  to get very pompous for a moment, the contrasts give a window to the soul, demonstrating the split nature of the human psyche, our very best and our very worst together.  That's the attraction of an anthology comic, its essential hybridity, even cultural schizophrenia.  

The relentlessly dark, graphic, one-note comics you describe are all very well in short bursts, but I prefer a bit of sunshine with my arsenic.

 For that Stront you can be chained to a wall and forced to read Dark Knight Strikes Again...for ever! (with occasional breaks for pretentious eejits to tell you how deep Arkham Asylum is when deep down they know it's murkily painted tosh)

Hey!  I'll not have the artwork dissed!

heh, even Grant Morrison thinks Arkham Asylum is tosh ;)

And Alan Moore points out that no matter how beautifully Killing Joke is drawn, it still says nothing about life of any importance. Batman and the Joker are in some way two sides of the same coin. So what?

With the wisdom of age, I can see that when as a callow youth I espoused that "Dark", "Gritty", "Adult" comics were in some way inherantly better than funny ones, I was talking absolute rubbish. but then, teenagers take themselves so seriously, don't they?

Have a look at Roger Langridge's "Fred the Clown". That's funny, and drawn in the "cartoony" style that you see as childish, but like all great humour, it says more profound things about humanity, in a more adult (as in grown-up, not loads of sex and gore) way than the likes of Dark Knight Returns could ever hope to do. (not that I have anything against DKR, you understand, I think it's great.)

Whizzer and Chips was a good comic, by the way, I used to get it now and then as a kid.

i was talking about the original and the cult in particular, - the sequel was inevitable after daredevil the movie and was basically bank rolled like a movie sequel - they did it for the money (but u still buy it out of nostalgia)

the artwork in arkham asylum is what makes it standout, and it was the first nice hardcover book that seemed to have been made for that format (so it was an overall package)

the alan grant detective stories from 601 on featuring the demon, clayface and scarface are good but they not brilliant

the dredd stories u are comparing them to are newer and so its not a fair comparison, especially as alan moore and grant morrison werent saying they were they were shit then, they were trying to flog them - grant morrison says everyhting is shit from time to time so u have to take it with a pinch of salt if u like it (he doesnt even like zenith anymore)

I think that it was called 'Happy Deathday' therev. It was good, but not as good as the one where the Doctor, Beep the Meep and Izzy jump dimensions and end up in the Beeb Television Centre in the late 70's...with hilarious consequences.

Am I the only one who thinks this?

Yes!!

Do people over 25 really still enjoy reading things like Cookie and Master Moves?

I'm 39 and have been reading 2000AD from issue 1 and the Meg since it started and I still enjoy it as much now as I did then, possibly more so!!

Yeh man, I may not be headin for the big 3 0 just yet but I will stick by the galaxy's greatest until the bitter end man!
Zarjaz!
Yes, yes I am being dramatic, but I am Shakara after all...

SHAKARA!

My 11 year old has just read the title of this thread and said "It aint" - so there!!!!

Yes, we should pile an army together and fight against these oppressive fiends who league to say that 2000ad is too childish, those who dare to say that deserve to have their lunch money stolen, or to be called 'gay'

"I don't want to subscribe to a magazine which I can only enjoy half of the stories, while feeling frankly embarrassed to be reading something like Cookie with it's Whizzer and Chips style art."

Well don't then. Piss off.

I used to like Whizzer and Chips, I used to read it and Warlord before 2000AD started

2000AD-and-the-Megazine-are-the-best-comics-times-ten-thousand-no-comebacks!

"Well don't then. Piss off."

Thats a bit harsh isn't it Matt? No need to be rude.

Oh an Dudley, i did'nt hear you so it doesn't count!

2000AD-and-the-Megazine-are-the-best-comics-times-ten-thousand-no-comebacks-anyone-who-can't-hear-doesn't-count-anyway!


Hear me now, Jared?

LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA!

"Thats a bit harsh isn't it Matt? No need to be rude."

Probably, but I reckon GeraldBostock is just another attempt to goad the board into a frenzied scrap and I can't be arsed with it today.

ANOTHER attempt?!

"ANOTHER attempt?!"

It happens periodically. Permit me to demonstrate: The meg is crap! Anderson is rubbish! Charlies war is awful too. If anyone likes it they can go (BIZARRE DOG REFERENCE) until they die!

And Dudley is gay.

tsk, youre all so like immmmmature, typical boys.

Was that another one?!
I don't know what to think now!
I'm living in a psychedilic dream universe where nothing makes sense!

AAAAAAKAKARA!

Can we stop the "gay is bad" thing, please?










Jared makes all his money round the back of king's Cross.

Shakara -

Er, yes, you are.  That's why Shakara is cool.

hey shakey shakarrrra mate, you dropped your "SH", here you are ( passes over a SHHHHHHH ) that'll help yor coff & delusional fever.

You know, I'd come back to the comic if they didn't give me such little dialogue. I was a Shakespearian actor, you know

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHakaara

You are Paul Scott with a bucket on his head and I claim my five pounds.

I'm so much more than that, I'm SHAKARA THE AVENGER, and I have my own website.

Shakara the plug-artist

Link: My website

"Well don't then. Piss off."

Why don't you make me? Here we see one of the big problems with internet message boards - peopole aren't allowed to have an opinion that disagrees with the majority, so they get told to "piss off". Shut your mouth in future if you've nothing constructive to say. IMO if 2000AD doesn't try to attract a more mature audience it'll be dead in a few short years.

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!


It's not because you've spoken out against the majority, it's just that the majority think you're talking bollox.  Matt explains why he reacted the way he did.  I does sound like you're trying to stir up a hornets nest, whatever that actually, and we have had, quite frankly, enough of that for the time being.

I think 2000ad would have to sink several thousand feet below sea level before it was canclled.  and i will have stopped reading by that point, and therefore care not a jot.

Why say something like that to a board full of people who LIKE and buy 2000ad anyway?

SHAKARA!

I agree to an extent the stories shouldn't ALL be dark - it'd be like Eastenders and depress everyone. I enjoyed Dredd on the moon and the Walter the Wobot stories as much as anyone. What I'm saying is sometimes Dredd should be used as a CHARACTER, rather than just a backdrop for the stories. The Anderson story is what I'm talking about - couldn't we get a Dredd like that? Apparently Dredd was based on Clint Eastwood/ Dirty Harry - excellent idea, Dirty Harry was great. But if Dirty Harry had been full of zany humour and "Wobots" would it have been any good? I like Walter in some stories, but there should be more realistic characters as well - Batman had Ras Al Ghul, Dredd should have someone similar instead of constant fantasy figures like Death, Mean Machine, Cal ALL THE TIME (those three are also favourites of mine, but some dark villains AS WELL sould be great!).

I don't know, I quite like watching it when Shane Ritchie is on...

2000ad doesn't need to attract a mature audience. It has that already, and panders to it in spades. What 2000ad lacks is appeal to a young audience. Most of us are in or heading for our mid-thirties. When we give up, who will the comic sell to? Nobody, because 2000ad knows its core market, and concentrates on keeping it, because it's less risky than trying to expand circulation by winning over kids and teenagers.

Of course, the risk of sticking with your core audience is that you'll fall foul of the law of diminishing returns. I'm sure 2000ad's current owners, Rebellion, know what they're doing.

Here we see one of the big problems with internet message boards - people aren't allowed to have an opinion that disagrees with the majority, so they get told to "piss off".

That's a little bit self-aggrandising, isn't it?  Your original post attracted several serious replies, some of which agreed with some of your points, all of which tried to construct a rational argument.

Only one person told you to "piss off", and he was immediately told off by another respondant.  It's hardly a messageboard uniting against you, is it?

I think it is in part a reaction to your original message, which went in for a pretty sweeping statement against the very thing that everyone on this board, almost by definition, is a fan of... hardly likely to be a welcome message!

...dudley

To gauge opinion. You may have noticed some people actually agreed with me (to an extent!). I simply feel, good as it is, it could be better. The latest Meg, for me, was just TOO childish and wasn't balanced enough with a)darker DREDD stories, or b)quality Dredd stories.

IMO if 2000AD doesn't try to attract a more mature audience it'll be dead in a few short years.

I disagree, following last years DreddCon on the train back home, I overheard a conversation where the opinion was that 2000AD needed to attract younger readers in order to survive. Both opinions, I suppose, have merit, but if 2000AD became more adult or start appealing to a younger audience, then I may nolonger be a reader. It has now and always had a decent mix of both, stories appealing to younger and older readers, that's one of the things that's kept me reading all these years. 2000AD is what it has always been, a comic, aimed at whoever wants to read it. I agree with some of the other boarders, if you don't like it, then cancel your sub and subscribe to something else. If you want more adult content then buy something else leave us to enjoy 2000AD and the Meg!!!!

>IMO if 2000AD doesn't try to attract a more
>mature audience it'll be dead in a few short
>years.

   I'm afraid I agree with the other chaps that it needs to attract a younger audience, probably aiming for the 12+ market. Which probably means having some immature content (but if it's done well, I don't mind)

>a)darker DREDD stories

   Darker doesn't mean better - too much darker just gets depressing and I read 2K/meg for escapism.

>b)quality Dredd stories.

   Yes, definitely.

   But Cookie was great! But then again, you hates me don't yer matey...

      Steve

" Here we see one of the big problems with internet message boards - peopole aren't allowed to have an opinion that disagrees with the majority, so they get told to "piss off"."

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion mate and I don't have any problem with you expressing it. But I still think your arguement is bobbins. We've already done adult comics in the UK - Crisis, Toxic, Revolver, Deadline, Blast - and they all folded. 2000AD needs to attract a younger audience and then retain it with exciting, captivating stories. You'll find most readers on this board started as kids and have just grown up with the title.

As for telling you to piss off, well it was done in jest, I take it back if it caused offence. At least I didn't tell you to go fu...... ;)

Doh! posted my thoughts on the prog 217 thread by mistake...

GB - are you reading the current clone tale in 2000AD? If so, is that the kind of thing you mean?  It's certainly seems to have gone down well with most readers, but its the sort of thing you have to measure out in limited doses if your not going to render it old hat.

I pick 2000ad and the Megazine fairly sporadically nowadays, my main problem is that it isn't adult enough or 'young' enough, it's generally for immature adults, sometimes I like that some times I get sick of it. Personally I think 2000ad particularly should try and appeal to a younger audience - there's nothing wrong with 'kid's comics', I still like rereading the early run of Batman Animated comics (mind you the idea of Batman as somehow 'adult' is a bit laughable IMHO) and I've never been a fan of forcing character's created for kid's into a more adult setting and reckon it's one of the main reasons 2000ad doesn't seel as well as it used to (that and Mark Millar of course)
As far as the art for Cookie and Master Moves goes, I thought they were both excellent, but  I tend to like 'cartoony'artwork, the only problem with it is that it's easily dismissed

I think most of you are missing my point here - I'm not saying it should be darkness and violence ALL THE TIME. Just more often, with Dredd being treated as a PERSON rather than a 2D backdrop to set stories around. Didn't you all enjoy the Giant story with the snuff movie guys? That was pretty dark, just the sort of thing this issue of the Meg sorely lacked (yeah the organ harvest story was similar but more jokey). To be honest, I don't mind what happens with other stories or characters - I love Dredd and I'd love him even more if he was given more stories like The Dead Man where his character actually shines, rather than the old "I am the Law, creep!" every single issue. A bit of both worlds is all I'm saying, not constant doom and gloom, not constant hilarity and "zanyness".

it's generally for immature adults

I don't think you can reasonably say that - it isn't for you, that doesn't mean it's aimed at immature people.

Ive read what your saying Gb and you have a point, but I think youve got it the other way round.  This is something Ive banged on about in my time.  But I dont think that 2000ad should be aimed at a "maturer" audience, but at a younger audience.  Most hobbies die out because they arent trendy or havent attracted any younger or newer fans.  

However, there is a case for the Meg to be slightly more "adult" and have a proper stable of comics, rather than two comics that basically run the same stuff.  Thats not to say that, the either has to change much, its maybe a distinct difference between the two would work.  

I think politicians would call it clear blue water.......

Yer Slips
 

 I'ld agree with you on that Slips, I don;t think 2000 Ad would have to tone down that much , or the meg become too adult but I'ld be happy to see stories that have caused some to be concerned say Valkeries. Asylum in the meg and maybe young middenface in the prog. - I realise tha may not be a bargian as imho Middenface is vastly better than the other two, but in principle I think it may be worht trying.
 Realistically there is no halfway house between the dandy/Beano and tooth anymore, so it's hard to see where new readers are going to come from. I have vague hopes marvel UKs expansion and Striker may help, but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

Jim  

"it's generally for immature adults "

"I don't think you can reasonably say that - it isn't for you, that doesn't mean it's aimed at immature people."

Sorry, that didn't come out right, I didn't mean that the readers were immature adults, just that the stories seem to be aimed in that direction, such as stories that use nudity and cheap titilation as a selling point, in fact whenever 2000ad looks like an issue of Heavy Metal I get nervous. But, you know, I'm not that up my arse that I disaprove of it all the time, like I said, sometimes it's okay, sometimes I can't be bothered with it.

"Didn't you all enjoy the Giant story with the snuff movie guys? That was pretty dark, just the sort of thing this issue of the Meg sorely lacked"

It also didn't really need Dredd that much, which kinda contradicts part of your argument. As it happens, like you I prefer the 'deeper' Dredd stories and I also think a mix of dark/light stories is fine, where I disagree with you is that Dredd needs to be used more and made more 3 dimensional, I'm not with you on your appraisal of the D'iraeli and Rodger Langridge's art, I think you're barking up the wrong tree wanting 2000ad and the Megazine to become more 'mature' and I think your opinion that dark = adult and silly = childish is way off the mark.

I didn't mean that the readers were immature adults, just that the stories seem to be aimed in that direction, such as stories that use nudity and cheap titilation as a selling point

Ok, that I'd agree with, to a point. Especially with recent things like Valkyries. I like it, but it didn't need all the tacky sex stuff in the first parts, because the story is interesting enough on it's own.

I do think, overall, there is a place for 'darker' stories (as defined here) in 2000AD, and we should have a few more of them. I like the idea of 2000AD being a little more yoof friendly, and the Meg getting a bit darker and adult.

Valkyries is certainly one of the main culprits lately, I've not really cared for any of Steve Moore's recent work since he came back to comic with Telguth (or whatever it's called), which is a shame as I used to love Laser Eraser & Pressbutton and wouldn't mind seeing what happened next in Twilight World.

I'm almost embarrassed to admit it, but I'm really rather enjoying Valkyries. Reminds me of Zirk from Warrior.

Jonni Future, Laser Eraser and Pressbutton - it seems the best way to make Steve Moore's writing vaguely enjoyable is to add a bit of totty. He seems to enjoy writing it more, and that translates to the reader. To me, anyway.

 For mine, Extnct is an example of the pitfalls of striving to hard to be adult; ie it`s bloody confusing. It would be excellent to have a Dredd story like the Andersen story - once in a while, which is what they do anyway. If all the Dredd stories were like that we would have lost something important to the world of Dredd.
  Thanks JimBob and Dudley for interesting posts here. Dudley, I think the homosexual meaning of `gay` meaning has lost its` monopoly on the word, just as the cheerful meaning is gone for good.

Floyd
(wishing this gay computer worked better)

I can't think of many award winning British comics that are still in publication since 1977, anyhow....

>I think the megazines the best it?s ever been and I?m in my 30?s. If you don?t enjoy it cancel your orderthey are aiming the stories apparently at children rather than adults

I lost half of my message above :-(, but I agree with Logan's take.





Just after the above image from this month's Me(sorry for the spoiler), Death saves a neighbours cat from falling from a tree and gets a ?5 reward and narrowly misses a beating from Deadworld bully Judge Porkins.



Ed

Twilight World? Gah! id forgoten about that! now i want to know what happened next. same with Pressbutton. that assassins still standing over their bed!

Gerald Bostock said "A bit of both worlds is all I'm saying, not constant doom and gloom, not constant hilarity and "zanyness"".

 isn`t that what we have already? Since all the examples of both annoying zanyness and adult stuff come from 2000ad and the Megazine as they are, I`d say we`ve already got that mix

Mature Dredd - America
nuff said.

CU Krestel

hi there
welcome to the board.

are we getting childish? i dont think so. but it has to be balanced.

my son is 7 he reads 2000ad. and many other comics,i say this in real terms he reads them in the way we do.absorbing the whole thing. the art work the story, so it is appealing to younger readers.

generally here we think that the megazine is at its strongest since it began.

balance perhaps. has been in our perception been reached. do you think the Extreme Edition is childish? thats more adult in many ways.
and as for graphic novels.there are some superb ones america being a prime example.

Better be careful guys a reasoned discussion appears to be breaking out... Someone even apologised for something they said!

Although I have to say Ed that spoiler was a teensy bit nasty if you hadn't read the meg yet.

J.

did spoil a bit for me, but Death offing someone in gory beauty, wonderfull(only up to part one down here)Question....is that Phobia and Nausia getting off watching? if so I really cant wait to see more of this story.

CU Krestel

(only up to part one down here)

Ah... right.... May actually be a bigger spoiler than you think then, Kres...

doesn't worry me, i activly seek spoilers some times. a spoiler gives you a taste, the strip gives you the whole meal.

CU Krestel

"same with Pressbutton. that assassins still standing over their bed!"

That story did get finished in the Eclipse reprints, can't quite remember how it ended but if you want I can dig it out and let you know.
Although I'd agree the Meg is looking very good I'm not sure about the reprints and articles. I love Charley's War and pretty much everything that's been reprinted but I've already got them. I know not everyone still has them and that for some it's the first time they've read them, but for me it's pages that could print new stuff or, if budget is an issue (and I'm sure it is), just drop the reprints all together and lower the price of the Meg. I would happily buy the reprints if they were in a seperate comic, such as the Extreme Editions or even if there was a reprint anthology (which would be great as there's loads of stuff I'd like to see in print again), but when I buy a new comic I'd like it to contain new stories.
The recent run of articles started well with the history of 2000ad then Battle, but a list of all the Dredd stories with not particularly insightful commentary is just filler (and at 9 pages to show about 18 'cases', heavily padded filler) as far as I can tell, and not very original filler either. I know Gordon Rennie joked about it but I would actually like to see an article on some of the old girl's comics, I have a few of them and they're pretty good, there's a really obvious line from the kind of stories in them through to Action and 2000ad, not surprising considering Pat Mills involvement with them all.
Sorry if all this has already been mentioned elsewhere, I am pretty new to the boards.

That story did get finished in the Eclipse reprints

Aieee! Now I've *got* to get the rest of the Eclipse reprints. That cliffhanger's had me going mental for the last 20 years.

I'd still like to know the score about the possibility of bringing him back is, though. I mentioned it briefly to Mike at Bristol last year, and we both thought it'd be a great thing, especially as he'd fit nicely into the Meg the way it is now. Although I suppose (as usual) there are rights issues that would bugger any return up.

Anyway, here's hoping...

IIRC when Andy Diggle was Tharg he asked Steve Moore about doing Pressbutton again, but said he wasn't interested.

That was only hearsay, mind. Some sort of official word would be nice, stop us getting our hopes up at least.

shite sorry time pressed no time to read all of above...

remember the world of many youngsters is a dark place nowadays, they've seen x rated gore films by 12 mostly...

But the comic, yes i worry that its stuck in too much of a narrow niche to attract new readers, this is why i get frustrated when any new story attracts volleys of abuse from squaxx. This is why i'm interested to see where Tharg takes it, & i see valkyries as a heading somehwere new. If he only gave the inner core squaxx what they wanted lets face it we'd be stuck with endless rogue trooper or other 70's hero re-runs. It has GOT to stay fresh & new & push boundaries, this does not mean 'fucking shagfest cocksucking gorey bastards'stories, but i think 'trying' to cater for kiddies is a dodgy move. kids arenae daft.

'fucking shagfest cocksucking gorey bastards'stories

One or 2 wouldn't hurt, I guess.  Apart from Devlin Waugh, that is.

:)

I wouldn't mind a fucking shagfest - if it was integral to the story. Nothing wrong with a shagfest is there?

shite.... was that a spoiler logan posted? grud i'm thick, i was wracking my brain which past story it was from... spose i better read this meg & prog then, it always takes me over a week, maybe the thrill levels get warped in the long journey north or sommat?

>shite.... was that a spoiler logan posted?

What spoiler?


La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

Personally, i'd like to see Lawman of the Future resurrected but based on 'proper' Dredd as opposed to the movie version.

The stories in LotF were mostly great, and harked back to the golden era of ideas and action over more adult themed stories. (not to diss 'darker' Dredd stuff, that still rocks!)

It'd be a great starting point for younger squaxx, and a great supplement to 2000ad and the meg.

And the current content of the mags (Dredd at least) coould become just that little bit more darker and edgier.

- Although I have to say Ed that spoiler was a teensy bit nasty if you hadn't read the meg yet -

I'm sorry about that people, I should have added a spoiler warning :-(



Ed

This whole 'attract younger readers' aregument is a bit of a non starter in my opinion..they're to busy smoking crack pipes and wacking up low grade H to bother reading comics..what you should be doing is trying to re-attract former readers BACK

T.P.S

thrillpowerseeker you have hit the nail on the proverbial. I am a former reader, attracted back after 14 years or so out of simple nostalgia. But I find that while I've grown up over those years, Judge Dredd hasn't. So I'll not renew my subscription when it runs out. Fair enough you may all say - fuck off if you like, WE like the Meg. Well good for you, but Cookie was a pile of childish crap and Master Moves was just plain garbage with kiddies artwork. How is the reader base going to grow then? Old readers coming back will be disappointed with the same old crap they stopped buying the mags for in the first place and new readers aren't interested, too busy smashing my fucking car window and taking smack. I guess I'm a fan of Dredd's POTENTIAL, as I just feel let down by most of the stories I've read recently. I'm an adult, I want to read adult stories, be they books or comics. Not Cookie stories with stupid robots that unbelievably "Eat The Rich" (yes it's even been done before, just ask Lemmy or Aerosmith). Science Fiction isn't inherently childish - check out Ben Bova's "Mars", Arthur C Clarke's "A Fall Of Moondust" or Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series. None of these have graphic violence, swearing or sex, but they still manage to treat the reader like an adult, not a 10 year old and have a gripping, intelligent storyline.
I know I'm fighting a losing battle as you all love the Meg, that's why you post here after all, but who cares? I'm pissed, like a good Scotsman should be!
Cheers and c ye!
Stevie

a person is still able to buy 2000ad and not agree with what is in it - or not appreciate it if u like

someone who doesnt agree with it is likely to try and impose their opinion on the board in order to change or influence the comic in some way maybe - the funny thing is one u have made your opinion known, if u contribute to the same debate (which tehn becomes an argument), u are doing exactly the same but in reverse

nobody is going to like anything in the prog as its an anthology, maybe if we treated each story like an individual comic and sorta said well did u like that 10 part mini-series, would u buy it again

 Ah Mr Bostock the books you use as examples are interesting if your pointing out what is adult. Asimov and clarke are both  authors i would describe as writing for bright 12 year olds. The charcterisation is non exsistant: people only exist to advance the plot. They write mechanical tales for people who want their heroes sexless and humourless. I'ld say a lot of Clarkes work is in it's way less adult- he's never written an even vaguely convincing woman- than a lot of whats appeared in recent Megs.  

Despite reading these threads discussing the childish nature of 2000AD and the Meg I still don't understand what GB means by 'adult'.  Does he mean stories that would get an '18' certificate?  That tells us nothing of the content of the story or the ideas being explored.  After all Britain's Bum Bandits and the like are only available to adults, but I would hardly describe them as intelligent, mature explorations of anything, no matter how entertaining one might find them.

I also don't understand why adult seems to be connected to a particular style of artwork.  Why should the art of 'Master Moves' be taken to signal that the whole story is childish?  Are Speigelman and Clowes et al. practitioners of 'adult' art in this regard?

I want to read intelligent stories.  And I judge these individually, attaching no weight in themselves to the amount of sex, swearing, violence or realistic art.  And Master Moves and Cookie might, or might not, fail in this assesment.  But no pipes through the head, graphic sex, swearing or photo-realistic painted artwork would have made them more so.  So what is it that you want?  

I would guess stories pandering to real-life adult situations through their themes and subtexts.

That is to say grim, unfantasic violence, casual and frank but not necessarily tittilating nudity, and council-estate, un-hollywood style profanity.

"Normal people in fantastic situations" could be a way of looking at Gerald's ideal sci-fi stories - we get the far-out ideas, but without the far-out protagonists normally necessary to please fans and "fit-in" with the proceedings.

TRAINSPOTTING in space?

Sure I'm wide of the mark, though Gerald!

You're actually pretty much correct. Fantastic situations with normal people is the kind of thing I'm looking for. "The Killing Joke" had an inherently silly character in the Joker, but the characters were treated in such a way that the story became more feasible, and less childish than the Batman stories of the 60's.

JimBob you may be pretty accurate about Asimov and Clarke but those guys were writing in the sixties so they don't have the cutting edge of todays stuff. However, they are still fantastically entertaining, without being either ludicrously silly or overly scientific. And what about Ben Bova? You don't mention him? Asimov and Clarke didn't need swearing or sex (or even women, like you mention!) to write a gripping story, but they were still, for the most part, serious, thought provoking, intelligent tales.
Some people still don't know what I'm looking for so here's some Dredd tales I thoroughly enjoyed last night (found them in the loft, forgot I had them) - "The Pit", "The Tale of the Dead Man", "Fetish" " and Slaine's "The Treasures of Britain". Dark without being overly so, with some humour but no stupid "zany" crap like robot Chef's on talk shows.

>but no stupid "zany" crap

    But, the 'Zany crap' is what makes Mega-City 1 such an interesting place - let's be honest, Fatties are pretty Zany as are bat-gliders, knee-pads etc. etc. MC1 has to be Zany in order for Dredd to work - he's effectively the straight-man opposed to MC1's comedian act.

    I do appreciate the odd darker story though, but I prefer 2K and the Meg to be a nice balance between the two, and I think most of the people here do too.

    Steve

By what definition are you deciding its childish?..Some stories work for me some dont but the only things I can think of lately as being 'childish' are the Droid Lifes and they have been laugh out loud funny just lately whether you are a child or adult...I still dont think there is a magic formula that will attract a legion of youths to start buying either prog or meg, but what you dont want to start doing is alienate your readers any further by including half arsed 'street-cred' bollocks like Roxillas Reviews and Tharg spouting a load of snow board jargon in ads

It still confuses me that you seem to equate 'dark' with adult/mature work.  I too prefer dark, realistic strips, but I do not think that this is the only way to approach adult, relevant themes in an intelligent way.

You've already recanted on the previous postings that suggested that swearing, sex and violence were the markers of an adult story.  Marking the 'zany' out for being inherently childish is, for me, at odds with much of the best short sci-fi, which looks at possible futures and extrapolates current trends, reducing them to absurdity, exploring serious themes while keeping the reader entertained.

Just as an aside, what do you think of Kurt Vonnegut.  Myself, I've always found both Asimov and Clarke's writing to be cold and dry, if that makes any sense.  

One of the most disturbing stories I can remember was a Dredd tale concerning state sponsored euthenasia..It featured a 'Miss Marple' caricature and read like a typical throwaway Dredd of the time..but I remember the ending quite shocked me and left a bitter taste in my mouth for reasons I wont go into on this board ( but any Dutch squaxx will know what I mean)..what I'm trying to say is that tooth has a good rep of appealling to most people most of the time..You cant say fairer than that

'Some people still don't know what I'm looking for so here's some Dredd tales I thoroughly enjoyed last night (found them in the loft, forgot I had them) - "The Pit", "The Tale of the Dead Man", "Fetish" " and Slaine's "The Treasures of Britain". Dark without being overly so, with some humour but no stupid "zany" crap like robot Chef's on talk shows.'


I agree with you on all but 'Fetish' there.
'Treasures of Britain' ranks as one of my favorite Slaine stories but i dont really feel that its all that 'dark'. The bit with Ukko doing his jester act is superbly daft!

As for 'Fetish', im afraid i found it cold and dull. Each to their own i guess!

Cant really say much else, as we all have our own ideas of what makes a comic strip great, and i'd hate to think i was discrediting anyones opinions.

Suffice to say, its a shame some of 2000Ad's more lighter strips arent pleasing you. Cause they really are good if given a chance!!

And dont worry about the darker stories, they do exist in 2000AD, and there will definately be more in the future.

Those three DREDD's you mention definately have a lot in common.

Between the three, there is a lack of outright comedy often associated with the character, and even minimal black humour and social commentary.

They are by-and-large straightforward gripping stories, without any need for "zany" elements.

They are also fairly long stories [THE PIT was epic, THE DEAD MAN business surrounded NECROPOLIS] and we know from the first episodes we are in for some gritty stuff - to that end, none of these three disappoint by staying on the no-nonsense track and not hitting us with too much tongue-in-cheek.

I have plenty time for "zany" [I know everyone hates that word, but the endearingly comical is just what some of our favourite sci-fi stories are] one-offs, but the darkness of THE PIT, THE DEAD MAN and FETISH is refreshing.

"It still confuses me that you seem to equate 'dark' with adult/mature work"
 Well, the Beano doesn't have many "Dark" strips does it. I don't see what's confusing you. Generally, darker things are adult are they not?

As for Kurt Vonnegut, I don't know if I've ever read any of his stuff - I've read so many SF books over the years, mostly from the "Golden Age" from the 50's to the 70's. A lot of people find Asimov lacking somewhat, but I love his settings, while admitting his characters were not that great. Golden Age SF was, for me, about imagination - what would the galaxy be like in the future, rather than what would the PEOPLE be like in the future. If you see what I mean, and I'm not sure even I do! Check out "The Robots Of Dawn" or "Robots and Empire" to see what I'm on about.      :-/

I don't think that the argument, "the Beano does not contain 'dark' strips, the Beano is for children, therefore the defining characteristic of of an adult (in the best sense) strip is 'darkness'" really stands up.  After all, there are plenty of other things that strips in the Beano do not contain, such as graphic sex, realistic violence and swearing, which we have established do not, in themselves, make a strip adult in anything but the most basic, shallow sense (a sense of the word 'adult' that I do not think counts as a recommendation).  Strips in the Beano also contain plenty in common with your definition of adult strips, after all, they use the same medium.  So, the special nature of 'darkness' and, expanding this, 'grittiness' as not only, in your argument, not only making an adult strip but being the only definition of an adult strip requires further, better argument.

I doubt we will meet on this argument, GB, as I can see no reason why a non-realistic art style, and a non-realistic fictional world containing absurd elements cannot still be adult and intelligent.  However, of course, this comment is not meant to close the argument - I am not trying to have my say and then declare further discussion void. ;)

Come again?

"Death saves a neighbours cat from falling from a tree and gets a ?5 reward..."

Does he spend it on a slap-up meal (bangers & mash) at the Hotel De Posh?

darkness doesent always make something "adult". it can however make things "angsty" which isnt always good. a well thought out story that amuses, enlightens or provokes thought while still remaining light harted in tone is more worthy of the term "adult" than something which simply contains a lot of violence and swearing just cause the writter wanted it to be "gritty". Im not saying that dark gritty comics are bad, but some peole can make such things ressemble purile shallow trash.

An excellent take on this issue from PJ Holden has just gone up on the 2000adreview.co.uk forum... to paraphrase, as you get older, you grow progressively less afraid of being childish.

Link: www.2000adreview.co.uk

ha that sounds about right.

The only difference tween men & boys is the size & price of the toys.

course i'm a woman so i get away with doing stufflike wearing a pokemon t-shirt, because somehow on an old lady, its not childish, it must be a cult thing. ha ha, yeah whatever.

Fix that link for you Duds...


Also Gavin, if you're watching, this week's FS was by Richard McTighe not Si Spurrier!

Link: www.2000adreview.co.uk

GB, I didn't mention Bova because I've never read any of his work, "hard" sci-fi was a phase I went through years ago and I don't really enjoy it anymore.
 Interestingly I agree with your choice of quality Dredd Stories, I just think theres room for both types of tale, and D'israli has really invigorated the tooth stable for me over the last few years.

Jim