Some nice little bits from London MCM
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/10/28/digest-batman-dredd-charleys-war-rebellion-at-mcm-london-comic-con/ (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/10/28/digest-batman-dredd-charleys-war-rebellion-at-mcm-london-comic-con/)
Oh another one and this one will certainly stir reaction.
Recoloured Halo Jones anyone?
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/10/28/mcmdiamond/ (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/10/28/mcmdiamond/)
Not sure colour serves this, but might get it into the hands of folks who otherwise wouldn't?
All very interesting (I'll be having some paperback Charley's War, coloured Halo (exception: double splash page) can feck off) but the usual lazy error- and 'controversy'-laden drivel from that site.
brass sunday ffs ::)
Hmm. I've often thought that Halo Jones would benefit from colour.
I know that probably comes across blasphemous on here. Believe me: I'm not saying this to knock Gibson's original art, or black and white art in general. I think the likes of Savage, for example, are great remaining black and white.
It just seem to be a style and story that lends itself to colour in my mind. I think this might be partly due to the lovely pastel tones on the cover, which demonstrates what coloured Gibson Halo Jones, art is like. Also the themes of a girl going out into the universe to explore. The universe should be a colourful place, to my mind, particularly when exploration is a them.
It should be done well, but that goes without saying, really. I saw a rather garish image on facebook from another colourised version which did not look good at all. If that's the colour we get, then please. leave it black and white.
Anyway, apologies if my comments offends anyone. I'm not intending this as a criticism of the original art.
Can't wait to see Halo in colour. Anything that allows you to re-experience art like that is welcome. I'd love to see more colour strips - Talbot's Nemesis?
You people are sick, sick I tells ya. ;)
I know this is an old unwinnable fight, just a curious difference in personal preference which isn't worth getting arsey about, and I'm all for Spreading the Word to the non-scrot by Any Means Necessary.
But I still always feel the need to ask.
How is retrospective colour helping this:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6yiM56ndSkI/WTJJ2qXV-pI/AAAAAAAAHQ4/WJAHd31wXvkssaws7RR-tLWEEpItJSYbACLcB/s1600/halojones5.jpg)
Or this:
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-S_ukVuo35no/WTJLalGpWfI/AAAAAAAAHRY/Z69ZWDgaodk21TBU6JhRWkaRzHVibK2OwCLcB/s1600/halojones13.jpg)
Or this:
(http://www.countdolby.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Halo1.gif)
These are black and white drawings. Exquisite black and white drawings. All colour does is mask the work that Gibson has put into making this world and these characters with pen and brush and black ink. I don't get it, and I don't think I ever will.
Yup. The merciless reissue/repackage schedule continues at Rebellion. Painful days for the completists :|
I wonder if it's more about breaking further that tempting technicolour US market?
Glad to hear about new Charley's Wars since I couldn't afford complete set from Titan.
As I said on FB, if you don't like the idea of a colour edition, don't buy it. It's not like Rebellion are pulping all the previous versions or coming round people's houses and removing them from bookshelves!
The simple fact is: there's a non-trivial chunk of the comic-buying market that won't buy B&W comics. As utterly baffling as that fact is to me, if colouring it gets a bunch of people to buy a fantastic comic they wouldn't otherwise have bought, I have no problem with that.
Completely agree - if it gets more amazing comics into hitherto unsuspecting hands, and a few more dinari into Rebellion's coffers, I'm all for it. But I still don't understand it, at all: artistic vandalism.
The more coloured stuff the better.Bring it on.
It's not a new thing that someone mistakes wondrous black and white comics for a colouring book, but it is unfortunate that Rebellion has now decided this is fine. Tordelback's phrase "artistic vandalism" is entirely accurate.
What's more concerning is that they might have got the DC bug and decided that trashing Alan Moore's back catalogue leads to fun and profit.
I will be taking Jim's advice and not buying it. Hopefully, that's the over-riding reaction. Besides, anyone who does hold the ridiculous view that they will only read colour comics is not going to appreciate Halo Jones.
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 29 October, 2017, 03:28:58 PM
It's not a new thing that someone mistakes wondrous black and white comics for a colouring book, but it is unfortunate that Rebellion has now decided this is fine. Tordelback's phrase "artistic vandalism" is entirely accurate.
Besides, anyone who does hold the ridiculous view that they will only read colour comics is not going to appreciate Halo Jones.
Utter bollocks. It's not like they're taking a set of magic markers to the original art... it's a book you don't have to buy that has zero effect on the original version. If a coloured version brings new readers, what
possible harm could that do? How
you can possibly know who will or won't appreciate Halo Jones?
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 29 October, 2017, 03:49:09 PM
it's a book you don't have to buy that has zero effect on the original version.
And you could say the exact same thing about Before Watchmen.
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 29 October, 2017, 04:02:43 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 29 October, 2017, 03:49:09 PM
it's a book you don't have to buy that has zero effect on the original version.
And you could say the exact same thing about Before Watchmen.
Well yes exactly. Though lets not get over excited here. Before Watchmen is more akin to getting some of the current talent to write something like oh I don't know 'Tales from The Hoop' or 'Halo Jones - Highskool in The Hoop' or some such. This is more like that animated Wachmen Comic they made (don't think that could have been a success as it wasn't followed up as I recall.) Whatever you think of it, it in no way diminishes the original.
Don't forget that collecting the stuff in trade is, in a different, way tampering with the original. Reprinting that trade is keeping it accessible to others and putting, aside elitism about folks who prefer colour comics being somehow inferior (look I don't get it either but its difficult to impose my views on other folks) its a similar thing. Reformating a tale to try to give it as wide an audience as possible.
Rebellion, like DC are a business and as such will try to exploit their properties in ways they believe have value (commercial that is).
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 29 October, 2017, 04:02:43 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 29 October, 2017, 03:49:09 PM
it's a book you don't have to buy that has zero effect on the original version.
And you could say the exact same thing about Before Watchmen.
Yes, you could. But that doesn't make this the same as Before Watchmen, which you well know and your pedantry here is only intended to disguise the weakness of your point.
Who appointed you gatekeeper of who does or doesn't get to enjoy Halo Jones? What qualifies you to make judgements on the critical faculties of people you've never met?
Your point is still bollocks and I'm disappointed but unsurprised that you've chosen to double down on the stupidity and elitism rather than just step back, take a deep breath, and acnowledge that "artistic vandalism" is a ludicrous way to describe this.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 29 October, 2017, 04:19:01 PM
Rebellion, like DC are a business and as such will try to exploit their properties in ways they believe have value (commercial that is).
True enough, and it must be somewhat difficult to keep endlessly rehashing the same four Alan Moore books so as to keep the income stream alive. Personally I believe the better option would have been to give Moore & Gibson the rights to Halo and let them finish it. But that ship has sailed.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 29 October, 2017, 04:33:28 PM
Your point is still bollocks and I'm disappointed but unsurprised that you've chosen to double down on the stupidity and elitism rather than just step back, take a deep breath, and acnowledge that "artistic vandalism" is a ludicrous way to describe this.
Same old abusive nonsense, although at least you haven't demanded an apology yet.
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 29 October, 2017, 04:43:28 PM
Personally I believe the better option would have been to give Moore & Gibson the rights to Halo and let them finish it.
Can't just do it for them and not everyone else.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 October, 2017, 04:45:34 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 29 October, 2017, 04:43:28 PM
Personally I believe the better option would have been to give Moore & Gibson the rights to Halo and let them finish it.
Can't just do it for them and not everyone else.
This is always the trouble with calling for creators to get properties back. In an ideal world that's a fine ideal. The trouble is it would probably (kill off) 2000ad and thus a source of good creators getting an audience to support creator owned ventures. Its the same with DC and Marvel. It feels simplistic to label them the villians for keeping rights and having house characters, this provides a solid backbone for the industry and its talent.
Image shows that the right book can work and some have real success with creators own works, for which they own the rights. Dave Sim and other pioneers did likewise. More often though the creators who have that success have made a name for themselves with the corporate houses (big or small). Shops and the market place depend on these piublishers too.
So for the moment and I'd imagine sometime to come - speaking from my stand point of utter ignorance I accept - the industry needs the balance it currently has for all sides. To sustain that publishing houses, be it the giants like Marvel and DC and their bigger corporate owners, or the little fish like Rebellion need a business model that enables them to be sustainable. That includes retaining rights.
Is it perfect, no, are they perfect, no. Is it what we got and until change happens over a period of time - yep so idealised stamping of feet actually dreams of a world that isn't realistic. Trying to change things, sure, but folks need to accept that will take time and a shift in the market place that doesn't seem to be coming in a hurry.
Just to clarify a bit, 'twas I introduced 'artistic vandalism' into this discussion, not JBA, and while I was using hyperbole for dramatic effect, it's not far from how I feel about it: colour art is great (look at Frazer Irving, J. H. Williams or D'Israeli, like bathing your eyeballs in joy), but even the best colouring job on top of art intended to be B&W is always a backwards step: it obscures, distorts and misrepresents the original work. Especially so when that work is close to the apogee of B&W art, as Gibson's Halo Jones definitely is. Hence, a somewhat exaggerated accusation of vandalism.
However, as always I actually take the Raymond Chandler position on adaptations: the originals are still on my shelf. And if colorised work draws in a new reader, or gives added pleasure to an old one, great.
Quote from: TordelBack on 29 October, 2017, 05:18:58 PM
However, as always I actually take the Raymond Chandler position on adaptations: the originals are still on my shelf. And if colorised work draws in a new reader, or gives added pleasure to an old one, great.
The accusation of elitism did sting a bit, so perhaps you have a point on this.
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 29 October, 2017, 04:44:53 PM
Same old abusive nonsense, although at least you haven't demanded an apology yet.
A car is bigger than a chair. A mountain is bigger than a chair. Because you can say the same thing about a mountain and a car, clearly these things are the same. Or can you genuinely not see what rhetorical nonsense that is? As Colin notes: Rebellion aren't publishing Halo Jones prequels, they aren't commissioning new creators to produce Books 4-9, they aren't folding Halo Jones into the Dredd universe, so suggesting equivalence between this new edition and DC's Watchmen shenanigans is
obviously rubbish.
You can continue to double-down on this, because you're a grumpy old contrarian with a pathological inability to modify your position once you've taken it, or you can take a step back and just concede that that was a stupid comparison. It's entirely up to you. Or, and I freely admit this is a possibility, I've misread/misunderstood your post and if you [i[weren't[/i] saying that, I'll happily re-consider if you'd like to clarify.
Bloody Rebellion, taking advantage of one of their most popular stories and making an edition that will bring it to a new range of readers, potentially bringing in profits that will enable the company to commission more new comic art from a number of budding comics creators. Those bastards.
(As for colouring, weren't a few of the pages coloured at the time anyway, for centre spreads and back pages, or am I imagining things? EDIT: Apparently not. I thought I saw a coloured book III back page during a recent Prog org. Must have misremembered covers or something.)
The opening Hoop centre-splash of Book 1 was coloured, IIRC.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 29 October, 2017, 06:24:55 PM
... Rebellion aren't publishing Halo Jones prequels, they aren't commissioning new creators to produce Books 4-9, they aren't folding Halo Jones into the Dredd universe, so suggesting equivalence between this new edition and DC's Watchmen shenanigans is obviously rubbish.
He was responding to the point that he doesn't have to buy it*. He was saying that,
in that respect (but no other), it's a bit like the reaction to
Beyond Watchmen. Everyone was free to not buy it, yet we all had a wee moan about it anyway.
It's only like Beyond Watchmen
in that respect, but that's how metaphors work. If you couldn't say one thing was like another unless they were like each other in
every respect, then the only suitable subject of similes would be same sex twins and Adele songs.
You understand all that, yet continue to make your ridiculous point in the same shrill, emotionally incontinent, and personally abusive manner.
None of this matters.
* I don't agree with him, by the way.
I think if we can live with constantly reprinted coloured version of V for Vendetta we can live with "new" coloured Halo Jones.
I'll take no lectures on what is and isn't acceptable from someone who badgered a creator into posting about something deeply personal and private with their incessant speculative posts, thank you very much. Wherever the moral high ground is, it's not where Frank is standing.
Quote from: jacob g on 29 October, 2017, 07:25:21 PM
I think if we can live with constantly reprinted coloured version of V for Vendetta we can live with "new" coloured Halo Jones.
That is a good point. Will be interesting to see how Gibson reacts to this announcement.* If he's okay with the new colouring then basically I have to concede there's no problem.
Had forgotten, until ebay reminded me, that there was a Quality Comics version, so it has already been done once before. Although that was apparently terrible.
*I presume Moore won't react at all.
I want a black and white version of V-for Vendetta. The colour never sat right for me.
Halo Jones: Gibson's original art is lovely, and looks like it would be very tricky to colour sympatheticly (I would have gone with flat colours and a limited pallet).
Alan Moore is a big name, people who are buying the comic on Moore's name aren't going to care if Gibsons art has been 'vandalised'. People expect comics to be in colour. Having a colour edition will no doubt increase revenue and new readers.
I can see why original readers are upset. I can see why Gibson fans are upset. I don't think this book is for them.
Not upset myself, just think that folk who think colourised B&W is 'better' than the original are missing out. Happy to concede that whatever works, works, especially as far as Rebellion generating revenue goes.
V for Vendetta is a very odd case, since the last book, more than a third of it, was originally in colour, and a chunk more (two issues?) that was coloured after the fact was never published in B&W. I'd certainly like to see an original 'mixed' reprint, in the manner of Zenith, but the fact remains that as a completed work it has always existed in colour, and the colourising was done by Lloyd himself, with the help of (I think?) Steve Whitaker. As such the colour GN it has a certain cohesion as a project.
However, even with all these caveats it is also a good example of why B&W with colour just isn't as good as art that was meant to be coloured. Book 3 looks significantly better than than the colourised chapters, with open space left for colour, rather than the blacks and full panels of the first two books. 'Course I'm preapred to concede that it looks better because Lloyd had got better.
I agree with you completely Tordleback. But I'm an artistic snob.
Quote... someone who badgered a creator into posting about something deeply personal and private
I can't remember asking for any explanation of why Smith didn't deliver a script* - just why Tharg handled the matter in the way he did (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=44800.msg970787#msg970787).** I'm sure you can click on the link provided and find a quote to support your argument.**
We all remember the touching sympathy you expressed on that thread with the crippling grief that prevented the author from fulfilling his obligations. That sympathy lasted almost a week, by which time you'd decided he should just get over it:
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 25 October, 2017, 11:23:56 PM
Arthur Wyatt's Samizdat Squad ret-conned The Inspectre out of Dredd continuity ... that was entirely my fault for failing to write anything Tharg wanted to publish in the years between those two strips. And I wasn't even getting asked to write more stories. Is there something applicable in that anecdote...? You be the judge.
.
I've been itching to have that out with you, Jim - thanks for obliging, even if you only did so in an attempt to change the subject and avoid confronting uncomfortable truths. Apologies to everyone else for causing a scene.
* because I already knew
** This is like that time you accused me of a campaign of hate against Molcher. On another site and with zero supporting evidence, of course.
You may tell yourself whatever you wish. I would suggest that the number of comic pros that have unfriended and/or blocked your FB alter-ego since the Smithy incident suggests that there is another viewpoint. You have no scruples, morals or shame. If you can live that... well, good luck to you.
I realise these are tough truths for you to hear, Jim, but arguing from verifiable facts and reason, rather than emotion and wounded pride, will make you a better boarder and this board a better place for everyone else.
Knock it off or take it to PM.
You offering Steve, cause that hat is totally working for me.
All that effort I put into polishing my skull and you only notice the hat!