Opinions are like arseholes…

[Jim_Campbell]

...As the saying goes. This isn't a specific pop at this forum, or anyone on it, but merely the distillation of my frustration across multiple discussion boards.

Here's the thing: not all opinions are created equal.

People bleat "Well, I'm entitled to my opinion" like it's a get out of jail free card; it's my opinion, and you can't tell me it's wrong.

Yes, I can. If your opinion derives from something that is factually incorrect, yes, I bloody well can tell you it's wrong. You have the God-given right to hold a stupid opinion, and I have the right to point out that it's stupid, and that you ought to get a better one.

Y'see, I came from Usenet, which started off as a linking of very low-tech online message boards for US universities in the seventies. As such, it's always had a kind of academic bias and, even in non-academic groups, it was pretty nerdcore. As far as I can tell, only the binary groups still see much traffic, the discussion groups having largely been overrun by trolls and spammers.

But the thing about Usenet was, you could pretty much guarantee that there was someone on any given group who knew more about the subject under discussion than you did, and you'd damn well better be able to back up any claim or statement you put forward, or someone cleverer than you would rip you to shreds.

Now, I wouldn't expect anyone to have a fully developed thesis in support of every half-formed opinion they hold; that would be ridiculous. But, if you're going to put forward an opinion into a discussion forum, that very act suggests to me that you're open to having that opinion, and the reasoning behind it tested.

In this day and age, where everyone is encouraged to blog about the tedious minutiae of their lives and tweet in real time about their bowel movements, every random, half-formed thought or opinion, no matter how vacuous, is accorded status it does not deserve.

But this isn't a blog, a Facebook page, a Twitter account. It's a discussion forum, and that suggests that if you put forward an opinion, it's up for discussion.

It's true that some opinions are unchallengeable: "I don't like the art of McMahon" is unassailable and everyone is entitled to like or dislike anything they damn well please. "McMahon can't draw", on the other hand, contains an assertion presented as fact, and can be tested. Put that forward here, and I would argue that it should be tested, otherwise what was the point. If you just like the sound of your own voice, put it on your blog.

If you put forward an opinion or make a statement that I find interesting, then I'll argue it with you. Vigorously, sometimes, yes, but here's the key fact: if your argument is better than mine, I'll have learned something. I may even change my mind -- I do it all the time when someone shows me that my own argument proceeds from outdated information or an incorrect assumption. If you think that changing your mind, either in real life or on an internet discussion forum, means losing face, you're an idiot. You're not losing face, you've learned something.

On the other hand, if you put forward an opinion or a statement that is easily proven to be incorrect, you've done nothing more than demonstrate your own ignorance, because you couldn't be bothered to check your own assumption before you posted. That wastes everyone's time, and I won't apologize for giving you short shrift.

To pick a relatively recent example: on the iPad thread, I gave Doggie a bit of a smacking. Not because I'm pro-Apple and he's anti-Apple, but because he chose to make a claim (Apple can delete apps off your iPad) which simply isn't true, and, having had that pointed out to him, he chose to repeat it. There is a very interesting discussion to be had about the utility/ease of use trade-off in the iPad, and where that positions the product in the technology market. There are arguments on both sides that are worth testing. If you're just going to parrot a bit of FUD you picked up off a pro-Microsoft blog, forgive me if I'm not going to waste any time on you.

Rather than just say "Yeah, you know what, I actually can't back that up with any kind of fact", Doggie chose to accuse me of bullying him. It's an accusation I've been hearing a lot of over the last year or so, largely in response to my knocking down a deficient argument without due deference to the sanctity of the other person's opinion.

Fuck that. If it's a stupid opinion, I'll call it a stupid opinion, and if you post something you can't fucking substantiate, don't bleat at me for asking you to back it up, don't fucking post it in the first place.

However, it's becoming increasingly apparent that this is supposed to be a kinder, gentler board, where fully grown men having tantrums like a spoiled twelve-year old can't be chastised or mocked; where expecting people to be able to sustain their arguments if they choose to put them forward in a public forum is considered bullying.

At the risk of repeating myself: fuck that.

I'll take care of the art comp, but otherwise, I'll be spending a lot less time around here. I'll miss some of you, but as of today, I've had enough.

Enjoy your forum.

Jim

[Dark Jimbo]

This is why we can't have nice things.  

I'll miss ya Jim, always a voice of reason and sanity (and profanity).

[COMMANDO FORCES]

I can see right through you Jim. You just want to retire at the top, with your 69d 14h 28m on the online leader board 

[Minkyboy]

That's a shame.
I've always found you tough but fair Jim. A little grumpy sometimes like old stoney face himself but sympathetic and compassionate to real life stuff.

This board is great because it is kind AND honest.

If no-one points out that your tat is looking a bit Nazish cos they don't want to hurt your feelings, then you lose out in the long run.
Same for all the art and story advice and criticism.
There is always some drama and pushing and shoving in forums, don't let the irrational ones beat you down. I enjoy reading your opinions and appreciate you taking on some of the nonsense especially when you are defending others.

We would be much the poorer without you Jim, stick around and keep being you.

[Kerrin]

Shit.

[Peter Wolf]

Rather than just say "Yeah, you know what, I actually can't back that up with any kind of fact", Doggie chose to accuse me of bullying him. It's an accusation I've been hearing a lot of over the last year or so, largely in response to my knocking down a deficient argument without due deference to the sanctity of the other person's opinion.

Fuck that. If it's a stupid opinion, I'll call it a stupid opinion, and if you post something you can't fucking substantiate, don't bleat at me for asking you to back it up, don't fucking post it in the first place.

However, it's becoming increasingly apparent that this is supposed to be a kinder, gentler board, where fully grown men having tantrums like a spoiled twelve-year old can't be chastised or mocked; where expecting people to be able to sustain their arguments if they choose to put them forward in a public forum is considered bullying.

At the risk of repeating myself: fuck that.

I'll take care of the art comp, but otherwise, I'll be spending a lot less time around here. I'll miss some of you, but as of today, I've had enough.

Enjoy your forum.

Jim

Please dont go anywhere.Just have a break.

If people cant handle a bit of straight talk and cant handle being corrected and then cry that they are being bullied then they have the problem not you and dont let anyone make you feel like you have to neuter your opinions.

Arseholes are like opinions

Sometimes they are full of.....

[TordelBack]

I'm from a Listserv and Usenet background myself, and I know what Jim means.  I have painfully clear memories of being a noxious student holding forth on ARCH-L (ca. 1992) on the work of a particular eminent archaeologist only to have that archaeologist appear and excavate me a new one, with full citations.  I still find myself hiding my nametag when I see him at conferences. Debate was robust, to put it mildly.  

Obviously the 2000AD board should be a lot more free and easy than that, but I still like to see a good well-argued fight, and I don't like to see them descend into ad hominem and accusations of bullying.  'Cunting' Campbell is a  cranky old Goth at the best of times and somewhat prone to stamp with a many-holed boot on the wandering gobshite, but he makes a gigantic contribution here and his rants are never less than well-informed and  closely argued.

Surely this forum can still be a place for his pasty kind?

In the meantime, have a wee break Jim and come back to us as full of invective and kerning advice as ever.

[JOE SOAP]

Grumpiness is next to Godliness.

I find it silly for people to get emotionally and personally agitated to the point of verbal abuse by often off-hand digital scratchings (not that this is you Jim) and you obviously feel put out about it enough to partially disengage, which is fair enough, but sometimes it's better to just sit back and say fuck 'em.


I hate goodbyes, but you know this ain't one really.

[zombemybabynow]

What peter wolf said.

Please dont go anywhere.Just have a break.

gooz-frabber and t'ing

[JOE SOAP]

I'm from a Listserv and Usenet background myself, and I know what Jim means.  I have painfully clear memories of being a noxious student holding forth on ARCH-L (ca. 1992) on the work of a particular eminent archaeologist only to have that archaeologist appear and excavate me a new one, with full citations.  I still find myself hiding my nametag when I see him at conferences. Debate was robust, to put it mildly.  

I'd like to see that, please provide.

[dweezil2]

While I agree simply no one is going to agree on everything on a discussion forum such as this, it's true to say the views should be expressed in an informed and rounded way as possible-just saying something is shit because one doesn't like something hardly constitutes a reasoned debate(unless it's relating to a Uwe Bowl or Michael Bay film of course )otherwise a coherent debate on a topic is just rendered pointless.

I do think however Jim that your opinions will be sadly missed on this forum. We haven't agreed on every issue ever discussed, but who would do on an open forum, that's what makes visiting 2000adonline so much fun!

Hope you rethink your decission Jim!  

[Mikey]

That's a real shame. As others have said, just take a break Jim.

Seeing Jim on a roll (see above) is a joy to behold and I count myself lucky never to have raised his ire  ...I know if I did, he wouldn't make it personal. In your honour, may I say;

[Jim Campbell]
[spoiler]Good riddance you cunt.[/spoiler]
[/Jim Campbell]

M.

[dweezil2]

Just to add Jim!

I love you, in a manly way!

See, that's better isn't it?

[M.I.K.]

Definitely not bullying.

Bullying is an unwarranted and sustained attack against someone unable or unwilling to retaliate to the same degree. Campbell don't do that.

Something to bear in mind though, Jim... There's little point arguing with someone you think is an idiot, 'cos you can't change the mind of somebody who doesn't have one.

[SmallBlueThing]

Yeah, just have a rest Jim, and come back.
The only problem i can see with your logic is that this board seems to be made up of mostly middleaged men nudging forty/fifty. Some of the opinions held may be based upon factual innaccuracies, but like any long-held belief, its actually increasingly difficult to change them. And challenges to them can be seen as personal attacks. When you get to our age, sometimes opinions define you, however crap they may be. If you have to re-evaluate them, you have to do so to the greater whole, which some maybe just dont want to do. Hence i say 'neil gaiman is bollocks', you ask me to back that up, i see it as an attack on my fundamental view of the world which im comfortable with and dont want to change, and things escalate. Its why we're not supposed to argue about politics and religion. Its not our fault that we stick comics and stuff up in the same league. If we were real men like our grandmothers were, none of this would happen, as we'd avoid contentious subjects, not be interested in ephemera, and meet in the pub to discuss big cabbages.

Jim, youll be missed for however long youre away. You have seemed increasingly exhasperated of late, so hope you enjoy your time away from the searing light of board-celebrity!
SBT