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Author Topic: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...  (Read 2122 times)

K2

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Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« on: 14 February, 2018, 02:06:41 pm »
Good Morning Everyone;

Though I do not have anything of consequence to contribute at this point being essentially ignorant to all things Dredd, I 've joined hoping that some of you might be able to simply point me in the right direction to get me started.  What I am looking for is 'where can I find information on the character Eustace Fargo, and how the world in the series between the years of 2019-2031' (if such information even exists).

Currently I'm in the midst of writing what is looking to pan out as a 50-60K word novella that focusses upon a couple of weeks in 2029 wherein Eustace Fargo (2031, Chief Judge Fargo), has been sent by the then U.S. Attorney General to serve a short tour with a contractor out in the field.  The U.S.A.G. & contractors goal being to both educate and 'temper' Special Prosecutor Fargo's views and understanding of the current situation, ultimately affecting his views on the Street Judge system he is proposing, and to lay the seed for his ultimate desire to see it changed.

My exposure/knowledge of the 2000AD World of Judge Dredd is extremely limited (essentially being Dredd ignorant).  At this time I've performed a number of google searches regarding the series, Fargo, checked over a number of forums, the various Wiki-pages and naturally have seen the two movies (of which it is my understanding that "Judge Dredd" was more true to the publication, though "Dredd" definitely inspired me)...  Naturally, the better I understand Fargo and the world prior or at the time the Street Judge system begins the more relevant the story becomes (though in the end I suppose it doesn't matter, it would be nice if it struck Dredd fans as "wow, that makes sense!").

As to myself, I'm simply a novice writer that initially began writing to improve upon my own literacy (having been illiterate at one time), and will post what has to date been short stories, a few novelettes, novellas and so on simply on appropriate public forums (having never published anything beyond that, and certainly not in a professional vein, even web based).  Having just finished a 211K-word novel in the truest sense of the word (1870's old West) I needed to step away from it before beginning subsequent re-reads and edits.  So... Having just seen the movie "Dredd" again, ideas started to flow, my research began which simply inspired more ideas, and at a week's worth of writing I'm already at 30K-words (10K-just last night).

This little project of mine is really flowing fast and fleshing out quickly.  I'm REALLY liking the path it has taken, the backstory makes sense and is supportive, yet I'd like to get it as close to fitting as I possibly can.

If any of you could point me to appropriate forum areas, topics or threads that might contain that information, or even just post a couple of key-words to help in my searches, it would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks for any help you care to render!

K2

Steve Green

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #1 on: 14 February, 2018, 02:20:15 pm »
Hi,

there's not been much covering that era other than Origins. Which fills in the blanks of Fargo and Justice Department's rise to power.

There is already an upcoming novel series called Judges planned for this year - think there is a chapter called Avalanche online, but I think that's more 2050/60ish.

Cheers

Steve

K2

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #2 on: 14 February, 2018, 02:47:22 pm »
Hi,

there's not been much covering that era other than Origins. Which fills in the blanks of Fargo and Justice Department's rise to power.

There is already an upcoming novel series called Judges planned for this year - think there is a chapter called Avalanche online, but I think that's more 2050/60ish.

Cheers

Steve

Thanks Steve!

I have reviewed and performed searches for the "Origins" information which I believe is where I discovered C.J. Fargo's request to Joseph to undo or revamp the Street Judge system (which plays out so well it is not even funny.  My lead character having him make her a promise, which she also made the U.S.A.G. make to her when she was brought to the U.S. in 2020... Fargo spending time with "Rokka-Kae" the fulfillment of that promise).

Unfortunately I'm not sure what I should search for regarding (quote from Wikipedia) "The middle chapters of "Origins" cover Fargo's life history, and how he founded his Judge System in 2031."  My story is also playing out well in laying the seeds for the policy of celibacy, and his subsequent affair (both post story).  I suppose that's the point of my research, so that those minimal (existing) points of the series have some relevance and inspiration from my story.

In any case, thanks for your quick response!

K2

K2

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #3 on: 16 February, 2018, 11:07:14 am »
Steve & Anyone Else that considered this question;

To save you further reading know I'll not be following the 2000AD Fargo story line as it exists.

First off thanks so much for your help and considering what I was requesting!  As I kept digging deeper, I ran into this phrase on a couple of websites (or perhaps just paid attention);  "After armed gangs stormed the White House and were able to avoid jail sentences by intimidating juries, Fargo outlined a New Deal to scrap the principle of due process and create a combined police and judicial force who could fairly dispense instant justice – the Judges."  That would have been I suspect between 2027-2031.

Though I understand that we're this moment a lot closer to that date than the original authors, I'm not real comfortable with the idea of U.S. Civil Rights simply being scrapped due to a singular hiccup in the system.  So as I began writing while I performed a more in-depth Fargo investigation, it was very obvious from the get go that it would take more, much more to collapse such a legal system to a point we roll back centuries.

In that it is already 2018, I have decided to take this story along a different path that meets at the same place. IOW, something else initiates the timeline from now to street judges... So I've decided that the world/U.S. needs to have a serious crisis that forces two things: 1. Martial Law, 2. Refugees, internal & international.  I also don't believe that nuclear war as most fall back on needs to take place, thinking that simple things having a domino and then snowball effect is enough.

Considering that, I believe that demonic (not divine) providence has already supplied me with a perfect example to build that back story off of.  So of the four or so backstory chapters scattered throughout my story to establish an environment to place Fargo on the path to presenting "Street Judges" as a better alternative, while leaving history as it is, as we now know it... I believe I need to make it worse before it gets better.

To that end, the U.S./world's fall will be initiated by one minor character in that chapter. A leader who essentially dismantles the government, foreign policies and environmental advancements, and creates a cascading effect bringing the world to the brink due to his instabilities.  That chapter will be named after him, in that the world refuses to ever say his name again, and so will be entitled;

"The Mad Clown"

In any case, it sets up a more realistic scenario to get us from 2018 to 2029 (when the story takes place) and lay the seeds for the balance of Fargo's life (as I have discovered thus far).

Thanks again for your help!

K2


Dandontdare

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #4 on: 16 February, 2018, 12:21:05 pm »
I wouldn't describe the WH incident as "a singular hiccup" - it's described as the last straw - due process (along with corruption and intimidation) meant that trials were taking longer and convictions getting harder to secure, leaving gangs feeling so untouchable that they would even consider attacking the WH. I'm also unsure where the need for refugees comes in - no shortage of home-grown perps!

K2

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #5 on: 16 February, 2018, 01:01:33 pm »
I wouldn't describe the WH incident as "a singular hiccup" - it's described as the last straw - due process (along with corruption and intimidation) meant that trials were taking longer and convictions getting harder to secure, leaving gangs feeling so untouchable that they would even consider attacking the WH. I'm also unsure where the need for refugees comes in - no shortage of home-grown perps!

Thanks for the response!  Just to recap, for my story now "I'll not be following the 2000AD Fargo story line as it exists."


In a nutshell, let's just say we consider this a plausible reality, I'm simply trying to figure out how to get us from "now till then, 2018-2029" realistically.  If everything runs hunky-dory till then except for the gangs mentioned, I don't feel you get there.

Perhaps, yet you're talking about repealing a number of the foundation amendments of the U.S. Bill of Rights, essentially chucking it, so hence the premise of the U.S..  Long before that would happen, "martial law" would be enacted for good cause which would nip it even more in the bud and be legal.  I'm also not suggesting that aspect of the story is going to be disregarded.  In fact, I utilize that to instigate martial law which then never gets repealed.  So instead of Street Judges being a de-evolution, they're actually a positive evolution to set the legal system back on a path to run full circle.

That said, you wonder "why refugees?"... perps regardless.  Well, I feel to move everything in the right direction there needs to be some global disaster going on.  One that doesn't wipe out vast numbers of people yet concentrates them in small areas.  I also feel that assists in supporting the martial law aspect in that the sudden increased density demands it.  Finally, wherein things start to turn around, there has to be a reason for in such a short time NOT going back to the U.S.-BoR, and instituting the judges instead. 

Lastly, refugees does not have to mean a sudden culture clash and mixing of... The way it has worked out in mine is that the flood of people forces a concentrating of the U.S. citizens to hold together, and that coincidentally then brings the population up to where it needs to be.

That's just my "brainstorming" of it... Perhaps once I become better educated to the existing story I'll see it in a new light.  Thanks for helping me to do that!

K2
« Last Edit: 16 February, 2018, 01:04:46 pm by K2 »

K2

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #6 on: 18 February, 2018, 05:28:18 am »
So I found this thread here: https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=31822.0 that some may remember which seems to discuss exactly what I'm trying to write about, though I'm still having a hard time gleaning from it information about that change (whys and so on).

Are there particular issues of the series I should look into?  What I'm finding (discussions found in web searches) hints at needing 1500-1519 & 1529-1535.  Is that correct or are just a few in those sets relevant?

Thanks again for any help!

K2

Richard

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #7 on: 18 February, 2018, 12:27:31 pm »
Who do you think is going to read this?

2000AD fans aren’t going to be interested in a story written by someone they’ve never heard of about a 2000AD character which contradicts 2000AD’s origin story for that character, as written by 2000AD’s most important writer.

Why don’t you just come up with your own characters and setting and write a completely original story instead?

JayzusB.Christ

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #8 on: 18 February, 2018, 03:17:55 pm »
Bit harsh there. He can write what he wants - altered dredd timeline stories by non-prog writers are hardly unprecedented anyway.
“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”

K2

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #9 on: 18 February, 2018, 03:42:11 pm »
Who do you think is going to read this?
2000AD fans aren’t going to be interested in a story written by someone they’ve never heard of about a 2000AD character which contradicts 2000AD’s origin story for that character, as written by 2000AD’s most important writer.
Why don’t you just come up with your own characters and setting and write a completely original story instead?

Thanks for responding.

Fair enough, however for good or bad the story would not be appropriate for this site, or for die-hard Dredd or Die fans anyway I suspect.  My inspiration came form simply the "Dredd" movie, and as I investigated it, the Judge Dredd world as a whole and so on simply to learn more I became fascinated... But, no doubt due to lack of easily found web-sources, found a lot of holes in what I could discover.

The one aspect that intrigued me however was how and why did it get to that point (of Dredd), and "what inspired Eustace Fargo to shift from a political career to a L.E./Judicial one, and what would make that system a justifiable one to have."  In the end however, all of the tidbits about Fargo's career, his ultimate reversal of opinion on Street Judges, his policies that shaped them (ex.: celibacy) and ultimate failures to abide by them and so on, simply left the premise for what struck me as a great lead in as to "why."

The "why" of it all is intriguing. However... though all of it is semi-reasonable (and I get it, it is just a fantasy world), it also presents a great opportunity to develop reasons to make all of that happen, in a very real sense.  Sometimes the "why" something got to how it is can be even more interesting than the "how."

In the end however you are right. 'Who would read it?'  Well, I suppose that doesn't matter in that I'm enjoying creating it.  That's the only reason I do much of anything.

I had just hoped the experts here could have helped educate me as to Dredd and Fargo, given me some better insights, and been excited to share their knowledge with someone ignorant of something they love.

But I get it...

Thanks never the less!

K2

K2

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #10 on: 18 February, 2018, 03:45:28 pm »
Bit harsh there. He can write what he wants - altered dredd timeline stories by non-prog writers are hardly unprecedented anyway.

Thanks for the encouragement!

K2
« Last Edit: 18 February, 2018, 03:47:36 pm by K2 »

IndigoPrime

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #11 on: 18 February, 2018, 03:50:01 pm »
his ultimate reversal of opinion on Street Judges
I don't recall him ever having done this. As he was dying, his whispered to Dredd that it was never meant to be forever, but that was likely referring to the judges having ultimately authority over the USA rather than the street judge system per se. (In other words, Fargo likely assumed they'd eventually return to a system with a president and the like at least, but with street judges continuing to be law enforcement.)

Steve Green

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #12 on: 18 February, 2018, 03:58:06 pm »
It's still pretty loose - even with the gaps filled in by Origins. There are some bits retconned or at least omitted by Origins (Fargo's sister Arden Polders from the Cal Files story doesn't get a mention)

Booth's tenure involves a bit of expansionism, invading for resources etc. which occurs after the establishment of the Street Judges.

The resource issue could be a particular piece, and Booth relied on mechanisation in his attempts to hold on to power (although this is some established pre-origins and isn't really addressed that much in it)

Automation and decimation of jobs could be another factor you might like to look at - that's definitely something in Dredd's world.

JayzusB.Christ

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #13 on: 18 February, 2018, 04:24:35 pm »
Bit harsh there. He can write what he wants - altered dredd timeline stories by non-prog writers are hardly unprecedented anyway.

Thanks for the encouragement!

K2

No worries.  No offence to Richard but I just knew someone would come along to the thread to warn you off 'our' territory.

I think most posters will agree that you're welcome in the forum and that it's great to see a new Dredd fan taking an interest.
“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”

K2

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Re: Looking for Pre-Street Judge Info...
« Reply #14 on: 18 February, 2018, 04:32:55 pm »
his ultimate reversal of opinion on Street Judges
I don't recall him ever having done this. As he was dying, his whispered to Dredd that it was never meant to be forever, but that was likely referring to the judges having ultimately authority over the USA rather than the street judge system per se. (In other words, Fargo likely assumed they'd eventually return to a system with a president and the like at least, but with street judges continuing to be law enforcement.)

Thanks for responding.  What I have found regarding this is as follows (quoted from other sites):
1. "His last words were to Dredd, telling him the Judges' rule was wrong and that he had to reverse it."
2. "With his dying breath he asked Dredd to dismantle the nightmarish legal system that he had created."
3. "In his last year of life he began to deteriorate mentally, and lost faith in his Judge System. He became increasingly despondent as a result, disliking the fact that the Judges had turned America into a dictatorship." [1531] it continues with... "His last words were to Dredd, telling him the Judges' rule was wrong and that he had to reverse it. [1535]
4. "Judge Dredd retrieved Fargo, who was revived, but the long period of being frozen had damaged his body and he soon died. His last words were to Dredd, telling him the Judges' rule was wrong and that he had to reverse it."
5. "In his last year of life he began to deteriorate mentally, and lost faith in his Judge System. He became increasingly despondent as a result, disliking the fact that the Judges had turned America into a dictatorship."
6. "in which the dying Fargo (who's not only effectively Dredd's father but his other self) disavows the system he created--the world-view that's the only one Dredd has ever known ("It was never meant to be forever, Joe!")--and Dredd lies about it to cover it up in the very next scene."

Etc..

Those and similar reviews are what initiated my thinking... However, in that the Street Judge system is illegal by U.S. Civil Rights standards, it inspired me to think of "what if?"

What if crisis demanded martial law? > What if martial law was abused and made a new system that ultimately began to fail? > What if Street Judges were proposed as a system to end martial law? > What if after years of that system, the founder of it had regret, and unable to do so himself now, passed along to another to bring it full circle back to due process?...

What Dredd ultimately does with that is no matter.  My intention being, it is a tale about the "why" of how Fargo began his journey, and what shaped his views and goals.  Once again, this story is not about Dredd, or the world as it becomes, it's about the "why" Fargo does what he does, his subsequent journey irrelevant.

In fact, in "my" story set during two-weeks of 2029, he is just a secondary character.  A young prosecutor that has come up with a great idea (though really an old one) to end the corruption of a government reeling from crisis, and instead seeing it as opportunity.  However, he is ignorant as to the masses coming from privileged portion of society.  The story is of the "why the world is as it is" and his "education as to how it really is," in the process establishing his viewpoints and goals that never bear fruit fully.

Thanks again for your help!

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