I see everyone here is so enthused by the Moffat Era that you've all been unable to contain your excitement at its return. :P
Feel free to discuss the series as it continues.
For now, all I will say about the first episode is...Movellans. ;)
Looks like everyone has took the "if you don't like it, don't watch it" advice....
I thought it was OK - lack of Clara a definite plus.
Having missed the last two parter and the two subsequent specialss, I have no idea who Nardole is (other than he appeared in the last special?) or what the vault and out of order TARDIS/University Lecturer for 50 years set up is about, if indeed it had even been mentioned before?
Actually quite good. A much needed push of the reset button after a dodgy couple of seasons. I already like Bill much more than I ever warmed to Clara.
Really boring.
Nu-Who by numbers and I feel like I've seen it all ten times before.
The whole time lord as professor thing was a bit Shada/ Dirk Gently, but overall I rather enjoyed it.
Thought it was exactly what the show needed: basically fun, with a doctorish Doctor and a likeable companion, firmly pitched at 'normal people' rather than fans.
That said, they could have made more of an effort with the 'it'll do' plot: we must have seen the automated-spacecraft-looking-for-a-crew thing 5 or 6 times now. However, like 'Rose', the story wasn't really the point.
Looking forward to the rest of the series.
Quote from: Leigh S on 16 April, 2017, 11:13:32 AM
Having missed the last two parter and the two subsequent specialss, I have no idea who Nardole is (other than he appeared in the last special?) or what the vault and out of order TARDIS/University Lecturer for 50 years set up is about, if indeed it had even been mentioned before?
The University / vault set-up is all new: presumably this season's arc.
Nardole is just... there
Quote from: Andy B on 16 April, 2017, 01:26:04 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 16 April, 2017, 11:13:32 AM
Having missed the last two parter and the two subsequent specialss, I have no idea who Nardole is (other than he appeared in the last special?) or what the vault and out of order TARDIS/University Lecturer for 50 years set up is about, if indeed it had even been mentioned before?
The University / vault set-up is all new: presumably this season's arc.
It's where the Doctor keeps his Slithern porn collection!!!! :o
Cute
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAY-tgKr52s&t=0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAY-tgKr52s&t=0s)
I liked it; the back-to-basics approach was just what the show needed after several years of overreaching itself.
Considerably better that i expected. The episode was closer to the earlier, angrier Capaldi Doctor than the slightly curmudgeonly, rock star uncle with a twinkle in his eye he quickly became. Like his earlier episodes, it deliberately went against the hold-hands-and-think-nice-thoughts, love will save the day stuff the show had been selling.
As a soft reboot, I thought it worked well. Knowing Moffat, though, he'll spend the series crafting a convoluted set-up that doesn't hold up to scrutiny and Bill, rather than being a normal person the audience can empathise with, will be some kind of puzzle to solve. I hope that's all not the case, though – I'd sooner Capaldi went out on a relative high, given the relatively rough ride his Doctor has had (and shouldn't have had).
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 April, 2017, 11:03:23 AM
I'd sooner Capaldi went out on a relative high, given the relatively rough ride his Doctor has had (and shouldn't have had).
Amen.
I like Capaldi and the new girl put in a likeable and capable performance but the whole thing seemed totally bereft of ideas or direction.
Do we really need to see the whole 'new companion is introduced to the TARDIS' thing, told once again from the perspective of a contemporary young woman? I don't think we do. Why not have a companion from a different time period or culture?
At this point, I feel like the whole set up could have been handled in a mega-concise 'All Star Superman' type intro.
To be fair that's one think Old Who got right back in the day. There was quite a range of ages, genders, cultural backgrounds over the years. We'll just leave off talking about <shudder>Bonnie Langford </shudder>.
I think introducing the Doctor through a modern, relatable girl in 'Rose' was exactly the right thing to do. Doing the same thing now just feels stale and like the producers are too scared to stray from the formula.
How about Nardole? He's neither contemporary nor Human. Mind you, we never actually saw him join the Tardis crew.
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 17 April, 2017, 09:35:22 PM
How about Nardole? He's neither contemporary nor Human.
He's barely a character.
It's like Matt Lucas turned up one day and never went home.
Quote from: JamesC on 17 April, 2017, 09:50:24 PM
He's barely a character.
It's like Matt Lucas turned up one day and never went home.
And yet... This is literally the only tolerable thing about it. It's like having a cheery man there going "it DOESN'T have any internal logic per-se and there WAS a horrifically awkward 90's-style fat joke just now but it's all a LARK though isn't it?"
(https://media.giphy.com/media/xKKwCv8ahnxg4/giphy.gif)
I'M A SELF MADE MAN AND I COULD BUY YOU.
I really disliked it.
For a sci-fi show with a young audience, it spent the first 10-15 minutes being a soap-like meander through Bill's life. Why the info-dump? My eldest was bored ("when is something going to happen, dad?"). It was lazy and the information could have been seeded through the whole running time to let the episode start with a bang, not a whimper.
Like a lot of Nu-Who, it was also lazy and riddled with simple to solve errors.
The Doctor seemed awfully unfussed about sentient fuel that was a match for Time Lord technology. Why?
And if that's the fuel, what could the ship do?
Y'know, the ship that the Doctor realised had landed in London but chose not to investigate.
What was the story of the girl with the golden star in her eye? Was she human (I thought not at first, now I don't know)? Was she a lure for Bill? How did she come across the puddle? Why did she keep going back?
What was the point of having the puddle be shown as a screen with a waving alien hand behind it talking about the Pilot and Passenger? If it was to create a mystery for future episodes, then it was clunky and distracted from the soft-reboot. If it wasn't, then it was clunky and unresolved.
Still, I didn't know about John Simm until the reveal at the end of the trailer.
Quote from: Andy B on 16 April, 2017, 01:22:23 PMThat said, they could have made more of an effort with the 'it'll do' plot: we must have seen the automated-spacecraft-looking-for-a-crew thing 5 or 6 times now.
I think this is the selling point now that it's settled down into being a series with a solid bedrock of regular viewers rather than a hit show that the nation tunes into. Everyone criticises the "same old, same old" line from 2015's trailers but that was deliberate: it's telling the core audience not to worry and that nothing's really changed.
QuoteHowever, like 'Rose', the story wasn't really the point.
But unlike in 'Rose' the characters and the premise weren't the point either. 'Rose' told you how exciting and unexpected everything was going to be. 'The Pilot' told you how comfortable and familiar everything is going to be. It's 'Heartbeat' with time travel.
Quote from: Andy B on 16 April, 2017, 01:22:23 PM
QuoteHowever, like 'Rose', the story wasn't really the point.
It's 'Heartbeat' with time travel.
Which ironically was a programme without any time passing what so ever. They seemed to spend over twenty years living in the 1960's. :P
Couple of hundred MP's like that too.
Oops sorry, wrong thread. :-[
Quite enjoyed this weeks Doctor Who. It felt like a good old, traditional, 'arrive and explore' type narrative. Nothing ground-breaking, but a solid episode.
I particularly enjoyed the call backs to 'The Ark in Space', and the Hartnell era lead in to the next episode. Don't forget to smile now. :)
I thought it was a real stinker!
Underdeveloped ideas and a pretty feeble plot.
Hope next weeks is better!
Capaldi was his usual dependable self, but the scripts need to dramatically improve (in more ways than one).
er, just don't wear the badges?
That was... OK. The great location filming and Capaldi/Mackie pairing (they really are good together) just about making up for the flimsy plot (malfunctioning technology AGAIN!)
Dr Who really struggles with villains these days, the 'bad guys' turning out more often than not to be simply malfunctioning or misunderstood. Moffat's line last week about evil just being hungry from another perspective (we're going to have to rethink WW2...), suggests it's deliberate. Last year, even the Daleks got a pass, when it turned out the machines say 'exterminate' regardless of what the occupant says...
It's OK to go up against a mad bastard who wants to take over the universe, every now and again.
What's the betting the creature in the Thames next week is just trying to get back to its Mum?
The Doctor didn't actually say there was no evil, just that there wasn't much of it in the universe. And that hunger is mistaken for evil.
I think the Daleks certainly qualify as amongst the few. At least the creator (Davros?) was. Arguably the drones not so much as I think their brains are surgically altered to make them vicious space Nazis (i.e. they don't have a conscience to listen to. If they did, and they still committed their atrocities.... that would be true evil).
I hope the series antagonists don't all turn out to just be hungry too though. It looks like the Master will turn up later though, so he/she qualifies as evil surely? Or does she, considering she is insane? Huh. Maybe she's just hungry too....
It was a good idea but there were too many plot holes and the ending became Deus Ex Mechanica by Sonic screwdriver. Humans who have just had their relatives murdered would hardly want to get along with their executioners but the biggest boob was the end. If the Doctor reset the Vardy by switching them on and off again to their default setting how come A: the building didn't collapse, B: The Vardy self-awareness would be set back since it evolved over time. Ok[ish]but somehow a bit naff too.
If anything, it again showcases the lack of interest in employment good script editors, or the lack of money to pay them. There were the seeds of good ideas here, and the show itself was entertaining enough, but episodes shouldn't break the second you look at them logically. All of the issues with the script could have been ironed out by a decent editor – the premise could have remained, and you'd only have needed to edit bits of dialogue. But modern telly just isn't that interested these days, with a few exceptions. (As I've said here before, at least Who isn't yet at the level of Lucifer, though.)
I've caught up on the first two episodes and my enthusiasm is less than underwhelming.
Pilot was a snore and they had to hit us over the head to tell us, 'Hey, look, Bill's gay. Aren't we hep?'
Smile was more of the same.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 24 April, 2017, 01:58:00 PM
If anything, it again showcases the lack of interest in employment good script editors, or the lack of money to pay them. There were the seeds of good ideas here, and the show itself was entertaining enough, but episodes shouldn't break the second you look at them logically. All of the issues with the script could have been ironed out by a decent editor – the premise could have remained, and you'd only have needed to edit bits of dialogue. But modern telly just isn't that interested these days, with a few exceptions. (As I've said here before, at least Who isn't yet at the level of Lucifer, though.)
Funny was thinking the same sort of thing...isn't there a meaning where the do the King's new clothes thing and point at the plot holes, them sort them with a timeywimey/'can't do that won't work' quote?
I'm sure everyone who's tried their hand at Futureshocks does that!!
This weeks Doctor Who claims Jesus was Black...and if you listen closely, you can actually hear the Daily Mail readers crying into the cellars where they keep their families. :P
The wife and I rather enjoyed that one. Simple, fun, and with a marked and fair point about 'whitewashing'. And while there's an arc underlying the series, it's not getting in the way (yet) – and nor is Lucas.
I love it that we live in 2017 and people still think Jesus was a white dude.
I figured being born in the middle East Jesus was neither black or white, although some people seem to define black as 'not white'.
Anyway, I liked that episode a lot. It was rather funny in places too, particularly the scene where Bill handles the 'mud' brick.
I've enjoyed all the episodes so far, although I wasn't keen on the resolution last week.
Misunderstood alien who only kills people because he's sad and wants to go home #237.
Quote from: Modern Panther on 30 April, 2017, 11:38:59 PM
Misunderstood alien who only kills people because he's sad and wants to go home #237.
I'm starting to think that might be a deliberate theme in the series now. At least there was a proper bad guy in the episode though, in the form of the moderate Tory guy. :P
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 30 April, 2017, 03:48:49 PM
I love it that we live in 2017 and people still think Jesus was a white dude.
and the son of God :lol:.
Quote from: Modern Panther on 30 April, 2017, 11:38:59 PM
Misunderstood alien who only kills people because he's sad and wants to go home #237.
Was it suggested the thing was an alien, or was it just a thing that might have been around on the Earth forever?
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 01 May, 2017, 01:09:22 PM
Quote from: Modern Panther on 30 April, 2017, 11:38:59 PM
Misunderstood alien who only kills people because he's sad and wants to go home #237.
Was it suggested the thing was an alien, or was it just a thing that might have been around on the Earth forever?
[spoiler]It wasn't definitively stated either way, but The Doctor thought it might be terrestrial, and the villain said it had been there for generations, so it seems likely it's actually native to Earth.
It's a completely different species of fish to anything we know of course as it has eyelids... (Sharks have a nictating membrane apparently.)[/spoiler]
Quote from: Satanist on 01 May, 2017, 12:27:27 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 30 April, 2017, 03:48:49 PM
I love it that we live in 2017 and people still think Jesus was a white dude.
and the son of God :lol:.
NOW you're just being silly!
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 01 May, 2017, 02:33:34 PM
Quote from: Satanist on 01 May, 2017, 12:27:27 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 30 April, 2017, 03:48:49 PM
I love it that we live in 2017 and people still think Jesus was a white dude.
and the son of God :lol:.
NOW you're just being silly!
Nah, that would be saying that Theresa May gives Strong and Stable Leadership.
I thought last night's episode was the best I've seen of this series.
The wood-woman was pretty freaky - probably quite scary to kids even though she wasn't a baddie as such (which seems to be the theme of this series).
That was a far better episode than this series has offered viewers so far!
There was a very Guillermo del Toro vibe to proceedings and it was nice to see a more horror approach, which immediately recalled some of the old school Tom Baker Doctor Who episodes of yore for me.
Uniformally good performances from Capaldi, Mackie and Suchet too.
The "monsters" behaviour seemed a little inconsistent and their origins a little vague and unconvincing, but other than these criticisms, Knock Knock was more a return to some kind of form.
I wonder if this quality can be sustained
Frankly, that's four from four for me this series. I've at worst liked all of the episodes so far, and Bill's pretty great too. If that continues, I hope she's a bridge rather than them doing the clean slate with the new Doctor.
And, yeah, pretty creepy in the way everything was done, not least the ending, where the [spoiler]mother effectively orders her son to die with her[/spoiler]. I wasn't even too miffed about the [spoiler]other students being 'rebuilt', given that 1) this is a show for kids, 2) it didn't really knock the impact of what had happened, 3) there's already been a LOT of death around Bill and that would have thrown her over the edge, and 4) it gave the Doctor a chance for an amusing 'back to the estate agent' quip[/spoiler].
Enjoying this series, comfortable couch & cuppa TV.
Nardole & Bill are far less annoying as companions than I imagined they would be (in fact I really like both of them) and Capaldi continues to cement his claim to Greatest Doctor of All Time.
Next Week: Dead Space 4.
The performances have worked out very well so far, I think. Capaldi's Doctor has the right balance between crotchety old git, caring about those around him, and a kind of intense fury for those that would hurt those under his protection. This beats his original throwaway stance for life (now, it's about pragmatism and the fact more people will die if he doesn't act quickly), and previous Doctors more or less thinking they're gods.
Bill's been great – a big surprise, given how terribly I thought she came across in the trailers. Nardole... I'm not a fan, but he's being used sparingly, which is good. I'd feared he'd be scooting about in every adventure, getting in the way as a kind of comic relief. But he works in very short bursts. Here's hoping it continues – for all Moffat's faults, it'd be good if he – and Capaldi – got to go out on a high.
And how far into the season will they keep [spoiler]poor Missy[/spoiler] in that vault?
Quote from: Modern Panther on 07 May, 2017, 03:27:04 PM
And how far into the season will they keep [spoiler]poor Missy[/spoiler] in that vault?
This months Doctor Who Magazine suggests [spoiler] the vault will be opened half way through the series, rather than waiting until the finale. [/spoiler]
Liked it.
Bill makes an engaging foil (in no small part because of Mackie' s performance) and it there Gore makes for a good coupling.
Glad they ended it the way they did otherwise it would have been too grim!
This really has been the best Capaldi series so far and if it keeps this up (MAYBE) even the best Moffat series since his first. Bill is a solid and convincing companion - cocky sometimes but also relatably anxious. Capaldi is channeling T.Baker again in a really good way - equal parts reassuring and enigmatic. We need more Nardole - Matt Lucas is excellent and seems genuinely fed up with the Doctor's machinations (maybe accidentally echoing the viewership in some ways) which is refreshing. The vault storyline at the moment is nicely low-key - it's not "WHAT IS THE MYSTERY OF THE FORBIDDEN GIRL. WHO WILL CAUSE THE RISE OF THE FALL OF THE RISE OF THE DOCTOR?!?!". I mean yes it's clearly [spoiler]Missy[/spoiler] but Lady Geoffery last night speculated that [spoiler]David Bradley is supposedly in the last episode - what if he's keeping his original self prisoner?![/spoiler]. That's nice.
Knock Knock was solid - good spooky-meets-aliens thing - nice lightly characterized flatmates (LG pointed out they were already more engaging than the "Class" crew *shudder*) - amazing David Suchet - good effects (the [spoiler]woodmother[/spoiler] genuinely freaked me out). The only slight miss was the [spoiler]miracle-pullchord-ressurrection of the kids[/spoiler] which is fair enough on a let's-not-be-total-dicks level but felt illogical.
BUT THEN WHO LISTENS TO FANS WHEN THEY'RE BEING MOSTLY POSITIVE, EH? ;)
Gotta add my voice to the ones enjoying this series - I've thought the whole show was up it's own backside ever since Moffat took over, but everything since (& including) the fun superhero Christmas special has been wonderful. It makes sense that it's [spoiler]missy[/spoiler] in the vault, possibly being protected from [spoiler]john sim's Master[/spoiler], but I think it would be anticlimactic given how recently we last saw that character.
There've a lot of Grandfather references though - possibly reminding us of a (very) early doctor and his "assistant"?
Enjoying the hell out of this series so far. Pretty much what I wanted from Capaldi's Doctor from the start -- I'll be very sorry to see him go. More like 'proper' Who than anything we've had for years.
Yeah, it's been a good run of episodes so far, with only "Knock Knock" being a bit underwhelming. It's sadly ironic that Capaldi's current portrayal of the Doctor is much more satisfying and "Doctory" in his final year. I think we need a good, proper baddie now though.
Quote from: von Boom on 24 April, 2017, 04:37:13 PM
Pilot was a snore and they had to hit us over the head to tell us, 'Hey, look, Bill's gay. Aren't we hep?'
Rose and Martha were infatuated with the Doctor, Amy and Rory loved each other and got married, Clara had a relationship with Danny.
It's revealed Bill is gay and you're being 'hit over the head' with it?
Seriously...?
Sounds like a typical straight persons reaction to gay folks in there TV shows.
Nothing new, frustratingly common.
Nothing new, agreed - still needs to be challenged.
Quote from: Mardroid on 30 April, 2017, 09:02:22 PM
I figured being born in the middle East Jesus was neither black or white, although some people seem to define black as 'not white'.
I've always thought the most convincing depictions of Jesus are from: a) Life of Brian and b) Chester Brown.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eymQ7_TRk5k/VVb0Ju0-YBI/AAAAAAAAIgs/hOu5BNglQzQ/s1600/Yummy%2BFur%2B19%2B(Chester%2BBrown)%2BCopy-23.jpg)
Wait... Richmond is Jesus?
I KNEW IT :o
Quote from: DrRocka on 13 May, 2017, 02:04:46 PM
There've a lot of Grandfather references though
And to Bill's deceased mother.
I wonder...
Space Zombies was another good one I thought. Simple set up, nice performances, targets were a bit obvious but it hit them well. Not sure about the "reveal" at the end though
Space zombies was indeed okay. Strong concept, pretty well executed. I think the political subtext was a bit too subtle for me though!
Did pay mills script that episode
I sometimes wonder if an entire story is constructed around a single pun (e.g. Mike Carroll's recent " you shot my paw") and if it's a good 'un I don't care. The line [spoiler]like all workers everywhere, we're fighting the suits" [/spoiler] was brilliant. A good episode of a good series, the only bit that didn't really work was [spoiler]"I knew the suit was low on power and would only half-kill you"[/spoiler] ... huh?
(https://i1.wp.com/www.starkafterdarkonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/judgedredd.oxygen.jpg)
Quote from: Steve Green on 15 May, 2017, 09:03:45 PM
(https://i1.wp.com/www.starkafterdarkonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/judgedredd.oxygen.jpg)
It did occur to me while I was watching, as well...
I usually watch Nu Who though I'm not a big fan of it. Especially when they shove characters like Missy in it and all this Timelords can now change gender bollocks. It's a bit like an advert for the LGBT movement.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 13 May, 2017, 10:31:46 PM
Enjoying the hell out of this series so far. Pretty much what I wanted from Capaldi's Doctor from the start -- I'll be very sorry to see him go. More like 'proper' Who than anything we've had for years.
Possibly. I much prefer Capaldi to the annoying Tennant and Smith for sure and the stories are more like something from the Tom Baker era (to a point anyway). Just can't stand that Missy who looks like is darkening the shows door next week.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 17 May, 2017, 02:56:41 AM
I usually watch Nu Who though I'm not a big fan of it. Especially when they shove characters like Missy in it and all this Timelords can now change gender bollocks. It's a bit like an advert for the LGBT movement.
I don't think an unhinged alien psychopath who wants to destroy all human life is a particularly
good advert for the LGBT movement...
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 17 May, 2017, 02:56:41 AM
I usually watch Nu Who though I'm not a big fan of it. Especially when they shove characters like Missy in it and all this Timelords can now change gender bollocks. It's a bit like an advert for the LGBT movement.
Dale, is that you?
Gender changing bollocks?
I thought that was a pretty good place to take the regeneration thing.
Was there anything said on screen that prohibited it in the completely made up life-cycle of Timelords and regeneration? Possibly - but things established in previous episodes can be changed if it makes for a good story.
It's just a pity the story and what they did with Missy wasn't that great or memorable (for me). But that's not the fault of the gender of the character.
Time Lords have been changing genders (and races) in AU material since the 80's. Rassilon, Iris, and Romana are the three big examples.
You won't have to suffer Missy much longer - this series is her last. I'll miss Michelle Gomez's performance - I think she's been brilliant.
Complaints like the one in this thread feel like people raging against Thor being female, ignoring that he was once a frog, which is apparently somehow OK. Also, quite how a gender switch is like an advert for LGBT+, I have no idea. (Personally, I'd be quite happy if the next Doctor was something other than a white bloke as long as the portrayal was good.)
I'm all up for the next doctor being Beyoncé. Imagine the clumps of irate fanboy hair that'll litter the nations' living room floors.
Perhaps "LGBT movement" is the new "gay agenda"...
Quote from: DrRocka on 17 May, 2017, 08:53:44 AM
I'm all up for the next doctor being Beyoncé. Imagine the clumps of irate fanboy hair that'll litter the nations' living room floors.
Only slightly more plausable than Harry Styles as Slaine.
Doesn't mean I dont like the idea though!
Quote from: DrRocka on 17 May, 2017, 08:53:44 AM
I'm all up for the next doctor being Beyoncé. Imagine the clumps of irate fanboy hair that'll litter the nations' living room floors.
"'If you liked it, then you should have put a ring of Akhaten on it."
It's sad that it seems that just as Capaldi is finding his mojo, he's set to leave.
Quote from: DrRocka on 17 May, 2017, 08:53:44 AMI'm all up for the next doctor being Beyoncé.
Oddly, the main reason I wouldn't be happy about that has nothing to do with gender or race – I'd feel a bit weird about the Doctor being
American!
Quote from: dweezil2 on 17 May, 2017, 09:12:17 AMIt's sad that it seems that just as Capaldi is finding his mojo, he's set to leave.
At least he's seemingly going out on a high. But, yeah, I'd happily watch another couple of seasons of this Doctor/companion combo. Ah well.
I'm confused as to what an "advert for the LGBT movement" might hope to achieve that would in any way be something we may not like. Oh, unless the advert would convince straight, cisgendered folk to experiment with their sexuality, of course! And we wouldn't want that, would we? We wouldn't want MORE LGBT people, or people to be given the courage to come out.
We wouldn't want a TV show to give people ideas.
SBT
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 17 May, 2017, 02:56:41 AM
It's a bit like an advert for the LGBT movement.
Ahh, yes... the 'gay Dredd' kerfuffle. I remember why I put you on ignore in the first place.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 May, 2017, 01:24:12 PM
Quote from: dweezil2 on 17 May, 2017, 09:12:17 AMIt's sad that it seems that just as Capaldi is finding his mojo, he's set to leave.
At least he's seemingly going out on a high. But, yeah, I'd happily watch another couple of seasons of this Doctor/companion combo. Ah well.
Genuinely the best Doctor / Companion combo of the Nu-Who era.
As mentioned unthread, the sparse usage of Nardole has worked out great.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 17 May, 2017, 10:09:05 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 17 May, 2017, 02:56:41 AM
It's a bit like an advert for the LGBT movement.
Ahh, yes... the 'gay Dredd' kerfuffle. I remember why I put you on ignore in the first place.
Didn't work very well then did it. I can't remember what I said about Dredd (or if I said anything at all) but I should imagine that I pointed out that a gay Dredd probably wouldn't go down to well. And I'd imagine that the overwhelming majority of Dredd fans would agree with that. And that don't mean they're homophobic either.
Quote from: M.I.K. on 17 May, 2017, 04:13:13 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 17 May, 2017, 02:56:41 AM
I usually watch Nu Who though I'm not a big fan of it. Especially when they shove characters like Missy in it and all this Timelords can now change gender bollocks. It's a bit like an advert for the LGBT movement.
I don't think an unhinged alien psychopath who wants to destroy all human life is a particularly good advert for the LGBT movement...
The reason I say that is because gender stuff is all over the news lately. It seems like every other day there's stories about gender neutral toilets, schools having boys wear skirts to school, films replacing previously male characters with female characters etc, etc.
It's everywhere and very noticable and no doubt it's at the very politically correct BBC too. The LGBT stuff started with Russell T. Davies and has pretty much been prominent in the show ever since. I'm not against LGBT characters in the show but when they start changing characters like the Masters gender then it becomes annoying. If they ever cast a female as the Doctor then I hope the show disappears up it's own arse.
Wow. I always thought Dr Who was a lot of made up rubbish but now it seems I really have gone back in time.
Dredd turned into a werewolf once.
I guess that was pandering to the lycanthrope movement, the hairy bastards.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 18 May, 2017, 02:24:29 AM
The LGBT stuff started with Russell T. Davies and has pretty much been prominent in the show ever since.
I guess you haven't seen 'The Happiness Patrol'...
For somebody who isn't against LGBT characters in the show, you talk about it a lot.
That said, does an alien life form transforming into a different sex by a process* that also transforms height, hair colour, accent and, on one occasion, clothes, really have much to do with 'LGBT'? I don't think that's how it works in real life.
I'm enjoying this series, but it's all getting a bit repetitive. Walking corpses in spacesuits? Nice, but we've seen it before, and that's far from the only example this year. So count me in for a female Doctor: good way to freshen the show up.
* a process that somebody made up in the pub
The Daily Mail comments section has infected the forum! Nuke us from orbit, only way to be sure!
On topic, Space Zombies. Yeah, another ace episode. 5 for 5 so far.
Ahem, I think you're all missing the most important point about gender-swap timelord regenerations: who'd watch a show called Nurse Who?
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 18 May, 2017, 02:24:29 AMThe reason I say that is because gender stuff is all over the news lately. It seems like every other day there's stories about gender neutral toilets, schools having boys wear skirts to school, films replacing previously male characters with female characters etc, etc.
In reality, it takes up a tiny proportion of the news cycle, despite estimates suggestions 5–10% of the population is in fact LGBT. This kind of argument sounds more like white straight people feeling threatened or feeling irritated that 'their' media is being 'infected' by all this other stuff.
As for Doctor Who, it's pretty laughable to suggest being gay has been prominent in the show. Captain Jack was initially a quite smart piece of script design, arguing that in the future most people just don't care about things like gender when it comes to sexuality. (Arguably, they kind of derailed that aspect of the character in Torchwood by 'reducing' that down to him essentially being gay.)
QuoteI'm not against LGBT characters in the show but when they start changing characters like the Masters gender then it becomes annoying.
They changed the Doctor into some weird little gnome thing the last time the Master showed up. They had Romana 'trying on' various options during a regeneration. The show's about an alien who can resurrect themselves time and again, who flies about all of time and space in a box. But, sure, let's get miffed about a gender shift of a single character (despite, in my opinion, it being an interesting shake-up that gave the Master/Missy the kick up the arse the character needed).
As for the Doctor, I don't care who's cast as long as they are good. My guess: anyone upset about the notion of a female Doctor needn't worry. I'll be bloody amazed if the next person cast isn't a white bloke. And the next. And the next after that.
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 May, 2017, 09:45:45 AMwho'd watch a show called Nurse Who?
One of the more questionable art decisions in 2000 AD's recent history, there.
The fact that Doctor Who is as LGBT friendly as it is makes me immensely proud to be a fan. I'm glad it doesn't pretend that a portion of society doesn't exist the way some people would prefer it. I'm sick of seeing people on social media or in comments sections of other websites saying the "gay" thing is "shoved down their throats", that they "won't let their children watch", that "it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve".
I love that Doctor Who is so inclusive and open-minded, and while children may watch, it was always intended to be watched by people of any age. Also, if a tv show like this educates kids that being LGBT is a fact of life and not a perversion, then perhaps more and more of them will grow up to be more tolerant and less narrow-minded and bigoted than a lot of adults are today. It will also give young adults who are coming to terms with their sexuality something or someone to identify with.
I think Doctor Who should be applauded for this.
^ Where the hell's the bloody LIKE button?
I wonder if we can Report To Moderator instead.
"Dear Moderator, Andy's post was bloody brilliant."
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 May, 2017, 08:44:32 AM
Complaints like the one in this thread feel like people raging against Thor being female, ignoring that he was once a frog, which is apparently somehow OK.
I'm not a great reader of Marvel, so... a frog?
QuoteAlso, quite how a gender switch is like an advert for LGBT+, I have no idea. (Personally, I'd be quite happy if the next Doctor was something other than a white bloke as long as the portrayal was good.)
As a white male I'm perfectly happy for the next Doctor Who to be BaEM, female, etc, though with the same proviso that I'd have for the next James Bond - the actor has to be from the British Isles (sorry, American, Canadian, South African, Australian and New Zealander actors).
Quote from: sheridan on 18 May, 2017, 08:43:37 PM
As a white male I'm perfectly happy for the next Doctor Who to be BaEM, female, etc, though with the same proviso that I'd have for the next James Bond - the actor has to be from the British Isles (sorry, American, Canadian, South African, Australian and New Zealander actors).
On the other hand - Antipodeans make fantastic Judge Dredds :)
Quote from: sheridan on 18 May, 2017, 08:43:37 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 May, 2017, 08:44:32 AM
Complaints like the one in this thread feel like people raging against Thor being female, ignoring that he was once a frog, which is apparently somehow OK.
I'm not a great reader of Marvel, so... a frog?
He was turned into a frog during the Walt Simonson run for a couple of issues. It was surprisingly brilliant (well, not surprising at all, as the overall run is one of the very best in Marvel's whole history. Hell, it's even got Judge Dredd in it - sort of.) However, I'm not sure Indigo Prime's example really holds up in a Dr Who context - the current Thor, Jane Foster, is not the same character as the real (formerly batrachian) Thor, currently known as Odinson. Thor, the man, wasn't turned into a woman.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 18 May, 2017, 10:54:15 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 18 May, 2017, 02:24:29 AMThe reason I say that is because gender stuff is all over the news lately. It seems like every other day there's stories about gender neutral toilets, schools having boys wear skirts to school, films replacing previously male characters with female characters etc, etc.
In reality, it takes up a tiny proportion of the news cycle, despite estimates suggestions 5–10% of the population is in fact LGBT. This kind of argument sounds more like white straight people feeling threatened or feeling irritated that 'their' media is being 'infected' by all this other stuff.
As for Doctor Who, it's pretty laughable to suggest being gay has been prominent in the show. Captain Jack was initially a quite smart piece of script design, arguing that in the future most people just don't care about things like gender when it comes to sexuality. (Arguably, they kind of derailed that aspect of the character in Torchwood by 'reducing' that down to him essentially being gay.)
QuoteI'm not against LGBT characters in the show but when they start changing characters like the Masters gender then it becomes annoying.
They changed the Doctor into some weird little gnome thing the last time the Master showed up. They had Romana 'trying on' various options during a regeneration. The show's about an alien who can resurrect themselves time and again, who flies about all of time and space in a box. But, sure, let's get miffed about a gender shift of a single character (despite, in my opinion, it being an interesting shake-up that gave the Master/Missy the kick up the arse the character needed).
As for the Doctor, I don't care who's cast as long as they are good. My guess: anyone upset about the notion of a female Doctor needn't worry. I'll be bloody amazed if the next person cast isn't a white bloke. And the next. And the next after that.
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 May, 2017, 09:45:45 AMwho'd watch a show called Nurse Who?
One of the more questionable art decisions in 2000 AD's recent history, there.
It seems to be on the news more and more. Especially as you say the proportion of LGBT people is very small. And that gnome thing was only temporary. The LGBT thing has been fairly consistent since RTD took over. Again I think there should be some LGBT characters in the show once in a while but there's been plenty of LGBT stuff in Nu Who anyway. The show's supposed to be a sci fi programme not some social engineering, brainwashing programme. And the main reason there's so much LGBT stuff in the show is because they're trying to brainwash kids. If they want to do that then create some other show instead of hijacking Dr Who.
As for the Master character needing a kick up the arse. Missy's the kind of kick up the arse the character can do without. I'd rather the Master not be made female thanks and annoying Mary Poppins lookalike. It's a fuckin joke!
Brain washing kids...?
I can't believe I'm reading this...
THIS is the fuckin joke, surely...?
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 18 May, 2017, 10:04:08 PMThe show's supposed to be a sci fi programme not some social engineering, brainwashing programme. And the main reason there's so much LGBT stuff in the show is because they're trying to brainwash kids. If they want to do that then create some other show instead of hijacking Dr Who.
But you're not homophobic. Oh, nosirree. Not at all. Not one little bit. Crawl back under your rock, son, and take your prejudices with you.
A man and a woman can lock lips in Doctor Who and it's fine... two men or two women do the same and it's not okay?
Sorry, if that's not prejudiced, I don't know what is.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 May, 2017, 10:08:22 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 18 May, 2017, 10:04:08 PMThe show's supposed to be a sci fi programme not some social engineering, brainwashing programme. And the main reason there's so much LGBT stuff in the show is because they're trying to brainwash kids. If they want to do that then create some other show instead of hijacking Dr Who.
But you're not homophobic. Oh, nosirree. Not at all. Not one little bit. Crawl back under your rock, son, and take your prejudices with you.
That's the typical response I expected. Usual cries of "homophobia" if anyone dares criticise the LGBT movement hijacking tv shows.
Being inclusive is not hi-jacking. You can't brainwash people into be gay.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 18 May, 2017, 10:13:32 PM
That's the typical response I expected. Usual cries of "homophobia" if anyone dares criticise the LGBT movement hijacking tv shows.
Because it
is homophobia you clueless bigot. Don't want to get called out for being prejudiced? Don't say prejudiced things.
Making homophobic comments will tend to net you accusiations of homophobia, ya berk. If you can't see what's wrong with your earlier statement, you shouldn't even be commenting.
Amazingly LGBT people exist independently of the 'LGBT movement'. Their presence in fiction and other forms of media is not an attempt at, or a result of, 'brainwashing'. If anything, their increased visibility represents the happy destruction of an old and all too real brainwashing.
Personally I'm delighted to be living through this short phase of western history, because I can remember how it was, and thus appreciate how it is and how it will be. And no amount of tampon dispensers in the Gents or gender-shifting timelords on the telly are going to put me off.
Quote from: Greg M. on 18 May, 2017, 09:17:50 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 18 May, 2017, 08:43:37 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 May, 2017, 08:44:32 AM
Complaints like the one in this thread feel like people raging against Thor being female, ignoring that he was once a frog, which is apparently somehow OK.
I'm not a great reader of Marvel, so... a frog?
He was turned into a frog during the Walt Simonson run for a couple of issues. It was surprisingly brilliant (well, not surprising at all, as the overall run is one of the very best in Marvel's whole history. Hell, it's even got Judge Dredd in it - sort of.) However, I'm not sure Indigo Prime's example really holds up in a Dr Who context - the current Thor, Jane Foster, is not the same character as the real (formerly batrachian) Thor, currently known as Odinson. Thor, the man, wasn't turned into a woman.
(https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/6/67310/1263218-marvel_uk_graphic_novel____ghengis_grimtoad__3___page_1.jpg)
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 May, 2017, 10:22:06 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 18 May, 2017, 10:13:32 PM
That's the typical response I expected. Usual cries of "homophobia" if anyone dares criticise the LGBT movement hijacking tv shows.
Because it is homophobia you clueless bigot. Don't want to get called out for being prejudiced? Don't say prejudiced things.
Call me a bigot if you want but I've already said I don't mind some LGBT characters in the show.
My main problem comes from when they start changing established characters like the Master into a woman and some people are wanting to do the same thing with the Doctor (plus some people have said they want the Doctor to come out as gay).
And there's also a very noticable agenda on at the moment in the news, film and tv for gender neutrality. So it ain't too much of a leap to think that the whole Timelords changing gender thing is part of that. And that last regeneration where an older Timelord bloke changed into a young black woman was one of the most cringeworthy things I've ever seen in the show. Utter crap!
Quote from: DrRocka on 18 May, 2017, 10:23:37 PM
Making homophobic comments will tend to net you accusiations of homophobia, ya berk. If you can't see what's wrong with your earlier statement, you shouldn't even be commenting.
What homophobic comments?
Litterly everything, you twit. "Brainwashing" indeed! Pretty sure I was gay looong before Bill appeared, or even before RTD revived the series.
Utter cretin.
I would have thought that a grounding in both 2000ad and Dr Who would be a recipe for common sense, courtesy and, at the absolute very least, tolerance. Shows what I know. I know that it is only one poster who is bucking the trend, but it depresses me nonetheless. I am white, male, and straight but I don't feel entitled to have Dr Who reflect this.
TV Offal showed us gay Doctor Who characters even before RTD came along.
Gay daleks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G5jYKwxuFc
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 19 May, 2017, 03:42:42 AM
I'd rather the Master not be made female thanks and annoying Mary Poppins lookalike. It's a fuckin joke!
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 19 May, 2017, 03:42:42 AM
And that last regeneration where an older Timelord bloke changed into a young black woman was one of the most cringeworthy things I've ever seen in the show. Utter crap!
How very awkward for you.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 19 May, 2017, 03:42:42 AMThat's the typical response I expected. Usual cries of "homophobia" if anyone dares criticise the LGBT movement hijacking tv shows.
Hijacking suggests a show being taken over by someone to promote an agenda, hidden or otherwise. Doctor Who merely has some obviously gay characters and is normalising that. Given that estimates suggest 5–10 per cent of the population are LGBT+, I don't see the
number of characters in New-Who being in excess of that. (We've had, what, one companion, the dinosaur and her partner, and Harkness – and the last of those was a plot point that essentially said in the future no-one really cares about these things, and anything goes.)
QuoteMy main problem comes from when they start changing established characters like the Master into a woman and some people are wanting to do the same thing with the Doctor (plus some people have said they want the Doctor to come out as gay).
Ah: "some have said". Again, I couldn't give a shit if the Doctor came out as gay, but I don't recall that being remotely a mainstream viewpoint. It's also vanishingly unlikely to happen. (Personally, I prefer it when the Doctor's not pining after a companion, because the 'will they, won't they' thing is really lazy writing; and that seems to be where the show's at now.)
QuoteAnd there's also a very noticable agenda on at the moment in the news, film and tv for gender neutrality.
This is absolute bollocks. What's happening is a normalisation of other ways of being, and that's happening against quite a lot of resistance. Notably, though, in countries where the resistance is less overt, it's not news, and therefore becomes less prominent. (See, for example, gay marriage in the UK, which went through with relatively little incident, versus the ongoing craziness on this subject in the USA.)
I think what you're seeing is your white/straight viewpoint that was endemic across all media suddenly having to make way for a little shift towards other people's viewpoints being accepted too – and a drive towards tolerance and openness in a society that's rather suddenly lurching back towards illiberalism.
QuoteAnd that last regeneration where an older Timelord bloke changed into a young black woman was one of the most cringeworthy things I've ever seen in the show. Utter crap!
Ah, yes, but you're not bitted at all. Nope.
I think it's clear you've been reading and listening to far too much right-wing propaganda that tries to convince you that the LGBT community is demanding more rights than others, are trying to recruit people, will bring about the end of society, and so on...
It's ALL lies and twisted misinformation designed to gather support for THEIR agenda. If an LGBT agenda or "movement" DOES exist, it's to be treated equally, and to be allowed to live our lives with the same respect others take for granted.
As for Doctor Who itself, the show's whole core is about resisting oppression and injustice, that everyone and everything has a right to life providing it's not at the expense of others.
With views such as the ones you possess, I'm surprised you're watching Doctor Who at all.
Is it really such a stretch in a fantasy show that someone who can regenerate into a totally unrelated appearance at a random age couldn't change other aspects?
I don't get it, Doctor regenerating as a woman doesn't contradict anything abut the character, nothing at all.
And Thor argument? Before Jane Foster storyline there was Earth X story, when Thor changed gender, I mean Odinson become Odindaughter and idea behind this was splendid but maybe controversial for some. To be honest when I was younger I admired this part of Earth X mythos more than anything else in this book, it was strong commentary about how we treat women and idea of female heroes, and what is sad, it's kind of relevant to this day.
On diversity, it's interesting how much you notice its lack of existence when you start looking. Perhaps this further came to the fore for me when mini-G arrived, but it's one of those 'can't unsee' things. When you notice the majority of leads are men, that crowd scenes are typically weighted heavily towards men, and that males are basically the default across a raft of fiction media.
With comics, I notice it now in Dredd (just check how many Judges are women in any given issue – sometimes none at all, and rarely anything approaching a sizeable number), but also elsewhere. And I rather liked the diversity apparent in Marvel of late. I grab the UK reprints, which are about a year behind, but started with Captain America being black, Thor being a woman, and Mighty World of Marvel including Doctor Strange, Ms. Marvel and Black Widow. Of course, much of that's gone now (MWOM is Guardians, who currently have one woman surrounded by bunch of blokes, and Silver Surfer, and the other book is old Captain America, and quite a lot of original Thor), but it was interesting to see different takes.
All this really requires is a little empathy and openness, but too many see it as an attack. I saw a great couple of photos the other day that really put things into perspective. One was a little white girl in a toy store, staring up and row upon row of black dolls. And another depicted a bunch of Asian women, happily chatting and having their feet done by white blonde women. There's more of that kind of stuff about, and they always feel like a jolt, which suggests our work for any kind of equality is very far from done.
Which in a roundabout way is why I like it when Doctor Who strives to be better in that regard. A black, female, gay companion? Great! Bring it on! (The fact that she's also a real breath of fresh air for the show in how she actually is also helps, of course!)
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 19 May, 2017, 07:31:57 AM
Litterly everything, you twit. "Brainwashing" indeed! Pretty sure I was gay looong before Bill appeared, or even before RTD revived the series.
Utter cretin.
Well I won't stoop to your level calling people names. You might have been gay long before Bill appeared and I couldn't care less if you're gay, straight or a Martian but all this LGBT stuff
is being put in the show as they know loads of kids watch it. So it
is a form of brainwashing. Again no problem with a character here and there but it's fairly obvious the show is being used by some people at the BBC for their own political reasons.
The old show very rarely had anything sexual in it (if at all) whilst the new show has had people locking lips with each other (gay and straight) quite a bit. Russell T. Davies annoyed a lot of people when he had Captain Jack kiss the Doctor right on the lips. That to me was unacceptable in the show (no problem with men kissing each other in shows like Queer as Folk).
Quote from: JamesC on 19 May, 2017, 09:29:12 AM
TV Offal showed us gay Doctor Who characters even before RTD came along.
Gay daleks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G5jYKwxuFc
But that was TV Offal not Dr Who. Funny though.
Quote from: Andy Lambert on 19 May, 2017, 11:21:16 AM
I think it's clear you've been reading and listening to far too much right-wing propaganda that tries to convince you that the LGBT community is demanding more rights than others, are trying to recruit people, will bring about the end of society, and so on...
It's ALL lies and twisted misinformation designed to gather support for THEIR agenda. If an LGBT agenda or "movement" DOES exist, it's to be treated equally, and to be allowed to live our lives with the same respect others take for granted.
As for Doctor Who itself, the show's whole core is about resisting oppression and injustice, that everyone and everything has a right to life providing it's not at the expense of others.
With views such as the ones you possess, I'm surprised you're watching Doctor Who at all.
I'm not saying LGBT people shouldn't be treated equally. I think for myself and am not influenced by a right wing agenda. I'm neither right wing or left wing.
Some people say the show's whole core is about spreading tolerance or fighting injustice and oppression but that's mainly with Nu Who that people started coming out with those old chestnuts.
The show's main core used to be about telling good sci fi stories. Some of the classics like Ark in Space, Robots of Death, Pyramids of Mars were just good sci fi monster stories. Nothing about promoting tolerance there.
A lot of people were more interested in putting a gay element in the show because they regard the Doctor as some gay icon for some bizarre reason (Russell T Davies included). Nothing to do with promoting tolerance or fighting injustice there either.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 20 May, 2017, 03:52:20 AM
I couldn't care less if you're gay, straight or a Martian but all this LGBT stuff is being put in the show as they know loads of kids watch it. So it is a form of brainwashing.
For what purpose? What are they brainwashing the kids into thinking?
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 20 May, 2017, 03:52:20 AMRussell T. Davies annoyed a lot of people when he had Captain Jack kiss the Doctor right on the lips.
I completely forgot about that. I must be desensitised due to all those Bugs (notorious transvestite) Bunny cartoons I saw when I was younger.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 20 May, 2017, 03:52:20 AMRussell T. Davies annoyed a lot of people when he had Captain Jack kiss the Doctor right on the lips. That to me was unacceptable in the show (no problem with men kissing each other in shows like Queer as Folk).
So it's the fact that it's two boys kissing in a family show that's unacceptable to you, not just the inclusion of kissing itself. You need to have a long think about that, and what sort of unwelcome terms might best describe that attitude.
As it happens I agree with you that the shift towards a focus on relationships over stories was a problem with the new show, but I'm afraid you're firmly on the wrong side of history with the rest of it. Boys kiss boys, girls kiss girls, some folk feel their skin doesn't match their heart, we embrace them and support them by including them in the normal everyday business of life and love (including fiction), because that's what it is. Ghettoising non-hetero love in (good) grown-up shows like QAF makes it something other and different and specifically adult. And it isn't, it's just love.
It's very hard to change the way you feel, the way you were brought up. But we all need to try, and if we really can't, we need to keep it to ourselves - for the sake of the children.
A considerable bodycount each episode - Fine!
Gun use, swashbuckling, murder and drug analoges - Completely OK!
A borderlind grooming subplot (River-The Doctor) - Aahh it's the BBC!
Two dudes kissing - BUUUURN THIS FILTH!
Makes you look more than a little silly really, creep.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 19 May, 2017, 10:01:21 AM
Ah: "some have said". Again, I couldn't give a shit if the Doctor came out as gay, but I don't recall that being remotely a mainstream viewpoint. It's also vanishingly unlikely to happen. (Personally, I prefer it when the Doctor's not pining after a companion, because the 'will they, won't they' thing is really lazy writing; and that seems to be where the show's at now.)
The doctor has been pretty much asexual for most of the last fifty years, so I also prefer it if there isn't a focus on his/her sex life (though the very first appearance features his granddaughter...) I'm thinking of Dredd's maxim that there is space for only one love in his life, and that's the law (obviously it's the TARDIS for the Doctor). Perfectly happy for the companions to get up to whatever they want though.
I'm genuinely baffled and actually quite angry by the notion that the normalisation of non-straight relationships in children's programming is being referred to as "a form of brainwashing". This isn't politics. This is life. Why should we whitewash such things out of children's programming?
It reminds me of an incident from my own childhood. When I was about five, I asked my mum what 'gay' meant. She told me, in a manner suitable for a kid – something like: "You know how mummy and daddy love each other? Well, when someone's gay, it's like two daddies or two mummies." At which point, I probably went "Oh" and scurried off to play with my Lego. Naturally, I recounted this to a friend, and his mother was furious. My mum was for a while ostracised by certain parents, and I was briefly ridiculed in the playground, because the leading mother had drummed it into her kid that I was wrong and gay meant "brightly coloured". Quite what she thought would happen to her little boy if he learned that some people are naturally attracted to the same gender, I don't know. But this was the early 1980s.
That such thinking still pervades is deeply upsetting, although it is at least something that appears to be on the decline. I was also talking about this thread with my wife earlier, and she said something interesting about the responses: "It just goes to show that all these supposed geeks who read comics aren't like how people claim they are." In other words, here at least, there's a clear majority in favour of openness and normalising minority positions in media, rather than arguing we should shut it out entirely.
(Note that the relationships argument is something quite different. Older Who had much less of what, but then so did television in general. That said, I'm on board with Hawkmumber's post. By denying any kind of romantic content in a show, but accepting massive bodycounts, you're rapidly heading towards US territory. They're happy for a show to have a bloodbath, but god forbid there be any sexual content. By contrast, attitudes are rather different in many European countries. The UK often feels like a halfway house between the two.)
Showing kids how NOT to be bigoted is brainwashing... that'd be funny if it wasn't tragic.
Also, I can remember a "live and let live" discussion occurring in "The Invisible Enemy" which was 40 years ago, so it's not a recent thing.
QuoteWell I won't stoop to your level calling people names. You might have been gay long before Bill appeared and I couldn't care less if you're gay, straight or a Martian but all this LGBT stuff is being put in the show as they know loads of kids watch it. So it is a form of brainwashing. Again no problem with a character here and there but it's fairly obvious the show is being used by some people at the BBC for their own political reasons.
Do you realise how paranoid you sound?
Me thinks ABCwarBot is just that. A bot.
QuoteAs it happens I agree with you that the shift towards a focus on relationships over stories was a problem with the new show, but I'm afraid you're firmly on the wrong side of history with the rest of it. Boys kiss boys, girls kiss girls, some folk feel their skin doesn't match their heart, we embrace them and support them by including them in the normal everyday business of life and love (including fiction), because that's what it is. Ghettoising non-hetero love in (good) grown-up shows like QAF makes it something other and different and specifically adult. And it isn't, it's just love
Very well put, Tordleback.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 20 May, 2017, 12:20:15 PM
Me thinks ABCwarBot is just that. A bot.
Sshh, don't say "bot" infront of the children
I just hate how we're being brainwashed to accept the fact illegal aliens feel they can come to our country and take away our job of saving the world any time they want! Send those two-hearted bastards home! End this sick liberal brainwashing! Won't someone think of the children?!?
By the way, last Saturday's episode was cracking!! 'It's always been us against the Suits.' Brilliant!!
Not that long ago, we had protesters in my local high street, trying to get people to sign a petition to oppose equal marriage. I heard one lady, eagerly espousing the benefits of bigotry on the grounds that the existance of gay people is far too complicated and embarrassing to explain to children. I wonder what sort of world it would be if all social policy was decided in this way.
QuoteI'm not saying LGBT people shouldn't be treated equally.
Yes, you are. Your saying that gay people should express the same feelings as everyone else in the same way as everyone else, in case children see them and get "brainwashed" into thinking that maybe gay people are just people.
QuoteSome people say the show's whole core is about spreading tolerance or fighting injustice and oppression but that's mainly with Nu Who that people started coming out with those old chestnuts.
The Daleks want to destroy everyone they consider racially inferior. The Cybermen want to destroy or assimilate everyone to build their single-minded collective. The Sontarans are a single gendered race who desire constant war. The premise of many older stories is "guy goes to strange world. Discovers people there are a bit different in their way of thinking. Deals with it". Its always been about fighting injustice and standing against villians who want to oppress anyone who is different.
I've said it loads of times here, but when I was a kid being called gay was THE most terrifying playground insult I could imagine. At the same age my kids literally couldnt care less, let alone imagine why I would have felt that way. And that is, IMHO, largely down to visible representation. We basically had Mr Humphries and Larry Grayson's catchphrase and maybe whoever Dick Emery was dressed up as this week, and I wasnt really sure what I was supposed to make of any of it beyond the idea thsy they were laughable weirdoes.
The current front runner for the leadership of our current centre-right goverment is openly gay, and effectively no-one cares. A decade ago I'd say that would have disqualified him completely. Maybe in a decade there'll be a transgendered candidate. Characters on a SF/fantasy show play their part in that.
Fiction writes the world.
Quote from: TordelBack on 20 May, 2017, 12:41:07 PM
Fiction writes the world.
That's why the bigots want to censor the fiction.
First one in this series that felt a bit flat for me. Came across like exposition for the series arc rather than another good standalone. Ah well.
I quite enjoyed it and the baddies were quite scary.
I liked the latest episode, Extremis, a lot. Its been done before, I but I felt the execution worked well. A [spoiler]clever twist.[/spoiler]
Quote from: TordelBack on 20 May, 2017, 06:04:34 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 20 May, 2017, 03:52:20 AMRussell T. Davies annoyed a lot of people when he had Captain Jack kiss the Doctor right on the lips. That to me was unacceptable in the show (no problem with men kissing each other in shows like Queer as Folk).
So it's the fact that it's two boys kissing in a family show that's unacceptable to you, not just the inclusion of kissing itself. You need to have a long think about that, and what sort of unwelcome terms might best describe that attitude.
As it happens I agree with you that the shift towards a focus on relationships over stories was a problem with the new show, but I'm afraid you're firmly on the wrong side of history with the rest of it. Boys kiss boys, girls kiss girls, some folk feel their skin doesn't match their heart, we embrace them and support them by including them in the normal everyday business of life and love (including fiction), because that's what it is. Ghettoising non-hetero love in (good) grown-up shows like QAF makes it something other and different and specifically adult. And it isn't, it's just love.
It's very hard to change the way you feel, the way you were brought up. But we all need to try, and if we really can't, we need to keep it to ourselves - for the sake of the children.
No it's because I don't want to see anyone locking lips in the show especially involving the Doctor. It never used to be in the show and nobody missed it. There doesn't need to be any gay (or straight) mildly sexual stuff in the show.
Quote from: Modern Panther on 20 May, 2017, 12:31:06 PM
Not that long ago, we had protesters in my local high street, trying to get people to sign a petition to oppose equal marriage. I heard one lady, eagerly espousing the benefits of bigotry on the grounds that the existance of gay people is far too complicated and embarrassing to explain to children. I wonder what sort of world it would be if all social policy was decided in this way.
QuoteI'm not saying LGBT people shouldn't be treated equally.
Yes, you are. Your saying that gay people should express the same feelings as everyone else in the same way as everyone else, in case children see them and get "brainwashed" into thinking that maybe gay people are just people.
QuoteSome people say the show's whole core is about spreading tolerance or fighting injustice and oppression but that's mainly with Nu Who that people started coming out with those old chestnuts.
The Daleks want to destroy everyone they consider racially inferior. The Cybermen want to destroy or assimilate everyone to build their single-minded collective. The Sontarans are a single gendered race who desire constant war. The premise of many older stories is "guy goes to strange world. Discovers people there are a bit different in their way of thinking. Deals with it". Its always been about fighting injustice and standing against villians who want to oppress anyone who is different.
No I'm not. I'm saying there shouldn't be any mildly sexual stuff in the show just like it used to be. There never used to be a 'straight agenda' with the show but certain people have made an effort to put an LGBT thing in Nu Who since it came back in 2005. And I've no doubt they've started to put more straight people kissing in the show as it gives them an excuse to put things like Captain Jack kissing the Doctor. in there. So if anyone complains they can say "well what about Clara kissing Rory" or whatever. So it is a form of brainwashing when it comes to the show as the show never used to be like that.
And of course people then started saying the show's whole existence is about promoting tolerance and fighting injustice. That was part of the show yes ---- but not the whole point or core of the show as some people say.
Dude, get outside, breath some fresh air, see mental health therapist, because you sound paranoid as hell.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 22 May, 2017, 04:56:20 AM
Dude, get outside, breath some fresh air, see mental health therapist, because you sound paranoid as hell.
Well if I'm so paranoid then how come there's been many people over the past few years saying the same thing? There's that whole "gay agenda" thing.
The phrase you're looking for isn't 'gay agenda', it's 'human rights'. And that's something I will happily push down your throat all day long.
But luckily this time you really are in an oppressed minority (of antedilluvian fools), so I'll leave you be, mainly because I'd say we're a jellybean away from this thread bring locked, as is the fate of many Dr Who threads across time and space.
I note the irony that while I've been celebrating progress towards decency in my own little state on this thread, our most famous gay pub has been defaced with swastikas and hate phrases. Happily everyone agrees the lone scrote responsible is a waste of skin.
ABCWarbot, what do you find so wrong with a group of people getting some representation in media?
Quote from: TordelBack on 22 May, 2017, 08:08:50 AMBut luckily this time you really are in an oppressed minority (of antedilluvian fools), so I'll leave you be, mainly because I'd say we're a jellybean away from this thread bring locked, as is the fate of many Dr Who threads across time and space.
Honestly, while I'd prefer the discussion to go back specifically to Doctor Who, I'm perfectly content with my admin hat on to let this offshoot continue, as long as everything remains civil. (And there has been name-calling earlier – no more of that, please.) Diversity and normalisation is important, but moreover it's also something sf and fantasy are regularly criticised for. If the discussion becomes too overbearing, I'll simply split the thread in two.
Quote from: TordelBack on 22 May, 2017, 08:08:50 AM
The phrase you're looking for isn't 'gay agenda', it's 'human rights'. And that's something I will happily push down your throat all day long.
But luckily this time you really are in an oppressed minority (of antedilluvian fools), so I'll leave you be, mainly because I'd say we're a jellybean away from this thread bring locked, as is the fate of many Dr Who threads across time and space.
I note the irony that while I've been celebrating progress towards decency in my own little state on this thread, our most famous gay pub has been defaced with swastikas and hate phrases. Happily everyone agrees the lone scrote responsible is a waste of skin.
Could we just take a moment to praise Torbels for being the bastion of decensy, empaphy and good maners that he is?
No need for that now Hawkmumbler, but you can all PayPal me your appreciation of my general wonderfulness at VirtueSignaller@sjw.ie.
'Low chabting of "cuck" echos from over the blue remembered hills'
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 22 May, 2017, 09:37:20 AM
I'll simply split the thread in two.
Preferred option for me.
I quite enjoyed Extremis, just ever so slightly disappointed that it was [spoiler]Missy[/spoiler] in the vault (but of course it had to be).
Saw a little kid in the neighborhood play with his
dads old raybans Sonic Sunglasses on Sunday.
Warms the heart.
I didn't think people still went around saying or thinking "No sex please, we're British."
The occupant of the vault may have been revealed, but this is Moffat here, I don't trust him to be that straightforward... the reveal was pretty understated and the vault has yet to be opened - I think there's still a surprise in store...
I'm sorry, the idea that "straight" kissing has been introduced to Doctor Who to balance "LGBT" kissing so fewer people will complain IS the most paranoid and ridiculous thing I've heard...! That's hilarious! :lol:
Thought 'Extremis' was hugely entertaining. Monks are nicely sinister, especially the open-mouthed way they talk [spoiler](which is very reminiscent of the way the very first Cybermen talked. Interesting that they are coming back in a few episodes...)[/spoiler]
Loving this season: great Doctor / companion(s) team, and every episode better than the last.
Best line in the episode
"Look up The Doctor ... under Cause of Death!"
Love the episode!
Quote from: TordelBack on 22 May, 2017, 08:08:50 AM
The phrase you're looking for isn't 'gay agenda', it's 'human rights'. And that's something I will happily push down your throat all day long.
But luckily this time you really are in an oppressed minority (of antedilluvian fools), so I'll leave you be, mainly because I'd say we're a jellybean away from this thread bring locked, as is the fate of many Dr Who threads across time and space.
I note the irony that while I've been celebrating progress towards decency in my own little state on this thread, our most famous gay pub has been defaced with swastikas and hate phrases. Happily everyone agrees the lone scrote responsible is a waste of skin.
So Dr Who's about promoting human rights now? Maybe this whole "gay agenda" thing started off because I dunno.........maybe Russell T Davies actually stated he had a "gay agenda" with the show.
And he did too.
He actually said that on an interview on News 24. So it's not too surprising that people started talking about a gay agenda in the show and not too much of a stretch to think it's been carried on through the Moffat era too. And it was mainly because some people regarded the Doctor as some gay icon fantasy not for promoting "tolerance" and "human rights".
Quote from: Andy Lambert on 22 May, 2017, 11:46:22 AM
I'm sorry, the idea that "straight" kissing has been introduced to Doctor Who to balance "LGBT" kissing so fewer people will complain IS the most paranoid and ridiculous thing I've heard...! That's hilarious! :lol:
I don't care if it sounds hilarious or ridiculous. I bet there's quite a bit of truth to it. The old show very rarely (if ever) had anything like that in it and some people at the BBC know that if they just put gay people kissing each other in the show it would be too obvious so I wouldn't put it past them to up the straight stuff to make it not so obvious.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 22 May, 2017, 04:56:20 AM
Dude, get outside, breath some fresh air, see mental health therapist, because you sound paranoid as hell.
I'm not paranoid but we must all watch out for the shape shifting reptiles who are trying to take over our planet
Quote from: Steve Green on 22 May, 2017, 08:13:22 AM
ABCWarbot, what do you find so wrong with a group of people getting some representation in media?
Nothing. I've already said I've got nothing against a gay character here and there. My main problem is when it involves established characters like the Doctor and Master.
Quote from: Andy Lambert on 22 May, 2017, 11:41:33 AM
I didn't think people still went around saying or thinking "No sex please, we're British."
The occupant of the vault may have been revealed, but this is Moffat here, I don't trust him to be that straightforward... the reveal was pretty understated and the vault has yet to be opened - I think there's still a surprise in store...
I'm only saying "no sex please" when it comes to Dr Who. The show used to be perfectly fine before without it.
I really can't be bothered to keep arguing with you. You can lead a man to information but you can't make him think.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 27 May, 2017, 01:14:05 AM
Quote from: Steve Green on 22 May, 2017, 08:13:22 AM
ABCWarbot, what do you find so wrong with a group of people getting some representation in media?
Nothing. I've already said I've got nothing against a gay character here and there. My main problem is when it involves established characters like the Doctor and Master.
Didn't you also get your knickers in a twist here about that 'gay Dredd' story a year or two back?
Anyone noticing a theme developing?
Quote from: Andy Lambert on 27 May, 2017, 07:52:25 AM
I really can't be bothered to keep arguing with you. You can lead a man to information but you can't make him think.
Andy's sentiments, share them I do.
I will say this much though, has there ever been ANY actual sex in Doctor Who, homo or otherwise (Torchwood doesn't count), that would give creeps something to be irate about? The only three examples I can recall are THAT photo of Katty Manning, the woeful final scene in Dying Days, and BBV's Zygon movie. So....nothing, really...
I certainly hope there are less priests in tonight's episode. It's not that I have anything against priests, it's just that the show was better without priests. I'm worried about the pro-priest agenda being promoted by the bbc, which is clearly an attempt at brainwashing our children. I mean, there were hardly any priests in older shows, and I didn't have any issue with that. Priest on tv are okay, but do we really need as many of them in family shows?
The
Quote from: Modern Panther on 27 May, 2017, 09:05:17 AM
I certainly hope there are less priests in tonight's episode. It's not that I have anything against priests, it's just that the show was better without priests. I'm worried about the pro-priest agenda being promoted by the bbc, which is clearly an attempt at brainwashing our children. I mean, there were hardly any priests in older shows, and I didn't have any issue with that. Priest on tv are okay, but do we really need as many of them in family shows?
But the priests there were were significant...
(https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/tardis/images/5/58/Cornered.jpg)
Quote from: Modern Panther on 27 May, 2017, 09:05:17 AM
I certainly hope there are less priests in tonight's episode. It's not that I have anything against priests, it's just that the show was better without priests. I'm worried about the pro-priest agenda being promoted by the bbc, which is clearly an attempt at brainwashing our children. I mean, there were hardly any priests in older shows, and I didn't have any issue with that. Priest on tv are okay, but do we really need as many of them in family shows?
But what about the blind agenda? They've even turned the Doctor into one of them blind people now. I've no problem with differently abled people existing but must they be shoved down our throats in this way?
:P
You chaps make all the open-mouthed horror* almost worthwhile! :lol:
*Inevitable consequence of having things shoved down your throat.
Considering the state of my relationships I woildn't mind someone forcing something gay down my throat...
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 27 May, 2017, 08:43:29 AM
I will say this much though, has there ever been ANY actual sex in Doctor Who, homo or otherwise (Torchwood doesn't count), that would give creeps something to be irate about? The only three examples I can recall are THAT photo of Katty Manning, the woeful final scene in Dying Days, and BBV's Zygon movie. So....nothing, really...
There was that incident with Ms. Grant's coccyx.
Oh that was a belter of an episode! Proper enjoyed that - possibly the best of this series so far..!
C'mon Dougie...you had one job to do, man! The hazmat suit and airlock doors are there for a reason! I'm tired of this pro-incompetent scientist agenda being foisted upon us by the BBC. This isn't why I pay my licence fee.
They're bloody pushing the midget agenda now. :P
That was total bobbins.
Been a pretty great series until (except the assistant - rotten) but that was (1) cheap (let's all look at them looking at a special effect) (2) badly written (all the armies giving up based on a computer simulation and some watch tricks) and undercuts its own tension - let's face it if they can alter the Doctors physiology from a distance he's zero threat to them.
Still at least the 'next week' looked all V for Vendetta-ish fun.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 27 May, 2017, 08:43:29 AM.... BBV's Zygon movie....
#
Why have I never heard of this? Just googled it and now I want a copy so much - any tips as it dioesn't seem to be on sale anywhere?
I thought this was a cracking episode - although how he foolled anyone with that really obvious "pretending not to be blind" schtick - even Donald Pleasance did a better job than that!
Quote from: Dandontdare on 27 May, 2017, 10:37:02 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 27 May, 2017, 08:43:29 AM.... BBV's Zygon movie....
#
Why have I never heard of this? Just googled it and now I want a copy so much - any tips as it dioesn't seem to be on sale anywhere?
I thought this was a cracking episode - although how he foolled anyone with that really obvious "pretending not to be blind" schtick - even Donald Pleasance did a better job than that!
Well, my tip would be...don't. It's absolutely cringe-inducingly awful, complete with some of the most laughable attempts at sex scenes ever put to film (with jazzy bass soundtrack, no less).
But, if you really want to suffer through it, I'm pretty sure there's a full version of the film up on DailyMotion.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 27 May, 2017, 10:37:02 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 27 May, 2017, 08:43:29 AM.... BBV's Zygon movie....
#
Why have I never heard of this? Just googled it and now I want a copy so much - any tips as it dioesn't seem to be on sale anywhere?!
You can get it through amazon market place new for £10 dirctly from BBV, I wouldn't recomend it though, it's pretty pap, especially compared to the other direct-to-video spin-offs from the era, like Downtime.
I know, I know, but I'm liike the nazis at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark - I have to look, even if it's going to melt my face off.
Well if you feel utterly compelled....it's on DM (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xnco1r_zygon-when-being-you-just-isn-t-enough-part-1_shortfilms), as Cow pointed out.
Better Who spin-offs from that period to exist, mostly from Reeltime. Wartime, Downtime, Mindgames, Daemos Rising, all of which feel like precursors to the Big Finish line.
well I just watched the last two thirds of that (part 1 of 3 seemd to be missing) and you were right it was utter tosh. Who would've thought that Zygons would spend so much time staring into mirrors pondering their earthly boobies?
We tried warning ya lad, it really is utter dreck.
Last nights episode was a total cracker, BTW, bringing this full circle. Series 10 has been belting so far.
The zombie monks saved Earth by warning us about the bio-hazard. If they hadn't done so, by the time the Doctor found out about humanity's apocalyptic incompetence it would have been too late.
[spoiler]All hail our new zombie monk overlords.[/spoiler]
PS, never seen BBV Zygons, but In Memory Alone was actually good.
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 28 May, 2017, 04:55:16 PM
[spoiler]All hail our new zombie monk overlords.[/spoiler]
I have a fiver that says those guys will turn out to be [spoiler]those classic Mondas Cybermen we've been teased with.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 28 May, 2017, 09:10:35 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 28 May, 2017, 04:55:16 PM
[spoiler]All hail our new zombie monk overlords.[/spoiler]
I have a fiver that says those guys will turn out to be [spoiler]those classic Mondas Cybermen we've been teased with.[/spoiler]
Which may mean that [spoiler]Bill, the university and the vault aren't on Earth at all but the tenth planet, an almost identical parallel on the other side of the sun - which would allow the doctor to "lose" without our world being destroyed.[/spoiler]
My god, what s great episode! And what a cliffhanger!
That's three for three! The writers are on fire this series, and Capaldi is now absolutely my favourite Doctor of all time. I can't believe I'm even saying that. He has bested Tom Baker - How is that possible??
I like it! Thought it been great and slow as last three episodes. Thought that leader monk was familiar, found out it was same actor who did the Mummy on two seasons ago.
Jim could be right about the Monks?
Why would the Monks be classic Cybermen...? I'm not seeing any kind of link... :eh:
I haven't got a clue what's going on.
Why submit? Why with love? What the actual frak?
Bored now
Quote from: Dandontdare on 28 May, 2017, 09:32:10 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 28 May, 2017, 09:10:35 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 28 May, 2017, 04:55:16 PM
[spoiler]All hail our new zombie monk overlords.[/spoiler]
I have a fiver that says those guys will turn out to be [spoiler]those classic Mondas Cybermen we've been teased with.[/spoiler]
Which may mean that [spoiler]Bill, the university and the vault aren't on Earth at all but the tenth planet, an almost identical parallel on the other side of the sun - which would allow the doctor to "lose" without our world being destroyed.[/spoiler]
I think it'll probably be [spoiler]Mondasian Cybermen, (they do the same mouth thing), but on Earth, (characters have called the planet by name throughout the series, all the people and places in the planet's history appear to be identical, and folk in authority know who the Doctor is. Plus, we've already had one instance this series of Earth not being real Earth)[/spoiler].
"The aliens have arrived, and we only have a few minutes to save the earth!"
You have a time machine. You could go away, spend a thousand years working out the problem then come back to now.
"The problem could be anywhere. I'm putting all classified documents onto the internet so we can use Google to search them"
What?! They were already searchable...You own a supercomputer that could do this in seconds! How does this make us safer!
"I'm blind! The tech I built is for some reason strangely limited!"
Seriously!? My phone can read stuff, translates it from any language and speak it out loud. You had literally all the time and access to all the technology in the universe, but you've built something with such an obvious flaw? Your decisions lack any internal logic.
Powercord!
Yeah - too many holes in that one and it failed to float like a colander in a lake. A rare dud in what has been quite a strong series so far.
I've only just caught up with this series, having been recording the episodes and watching them later, so I've only just read this thread to avoid spoilers. I think this has been the best series in a long time, it's been consistently good with no annoying episodes. Capaldi's a great Doctor, I'm glad Missy's back, I like Nardole and I like Billi. I'm really glad Capaldi's going out on a high.
Has anyone seen the Dr Who Mr Men books? They're funny.
Anyone who tries to nit-pick time travel plot-holes in a Dr Who story is missing the point entirely
The Doctor finally goes crazy and loses what little faith he had in the human race's ability to make its own decisions!
[spoiler]
Siding with the alien invaders, he becomes such a threat to humanity that his assistants free a semi-reformed Missy to stop him. She successfully defeats the invaders, killing the Doctor. Then, in a shock move, Missy prevents his regeneration and seals his body in the vault. They rest of the series is given over to Missy travelling around in the Tardis, trying to be good and saving the day! Inevitably, she fails and in the finale releases the Doctor, realising that she must continue to play the villain.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]nope, never mind. Let's just defeat the bad guys by holding hands and thinking nice thoughts.[/spoiler]
That episode was poopy twee guff.
Well, that episode was a bit of a combo breaker. What a shame.
Whenever there's a plot revolving around a planet wide invasion it always turns out to be a rubbish story.
Dr Who is much better when he's saving a small outpost or a space station or something.
I tend to agree, although the set-up for this one was good. But, yeah, that last episode was, as my wife put it, "meh". Disappointing, given the highs this series has hit so far.
Quote from: JamesC on 04 June, 2017, 03:13:21 PM
Whenever there's a plot revolving around a planet wide invasion it always turns out to be a rubbish story.
Dr Who is much better when he's saving a small outpost or a space station or something.
Yes, planetary invasions require explosions. Insane monologues, someone going Ha!Ha!Ha!
(And preferably Daleks randomly gunning down bystanders ... that's what Daleks are for!)
I don't know, the catty exchanges between the Daleks and Cybermen a few series back made me laugh.
Quote from: Steve Green on 04 June, 2017, 07:34:08 PM
I don't know, the catty exchanges between the Daleks and Cybermen a few series back made me laugh.
Cyberman: Our technologies are compatible, though your design is less elegant.
Dalek Thay: Daleks have no concept of elegance!
Cyberman: This is obvious.
Cyber Leader: Daleks, be warned. You have declared war upon the Cybermen.
Dalek Sec: This is not war - this is pest control!
Cyber Leader: We have five million Cybermen. How many are you?
Dalek Sec: Four.
Cyber Leader: You would destroy the Cybermen with four Daleks?
Dalek Sec: We would destroy the Cybermen with one Dalek! You superior in only one respect.
Cyber Leader: What is that?
Dalek Sec: You are better at dying.
:D
Love and pixie dust resolves lots of things in Doctor Who these days. I've grown to accept that. So if you are going to do it, do it well and I think that one did. Especially with the revelation that the Doctor was somewhat instrumental in it (even though he didn't know at the time).
This episode was okay, but it very familiar as Vampires control the world in Series 4 of Being Human.
Even the creator of Being Human; Toby Whithouse is the writer of this episode. And he will take over Doctor Who next series.
Chris Chibnall is the new showrunner.
Was he? Sorry I was mis-inform.
Yep, it's Chris Chibnall who shall be replacing Moffat.
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 04 June, 2017, 02:29:05 PM
Well, that episode was a bit of a combo breaker. What a shame.
The one before it broke the combo for me.
Really didn't enjoy this Evil Monk tale, despite the left field set-up episode.
Monk 1; Finally we have control of the Earth.
Monk 2; Yessss...
Monk 1; Now we must ensure the populace never question the fact that we have "always" been here.
Monk 2; Hey- why don't we call our Gestapo type law enforcement 'The Thought Police'?
Monk 1; <Facepalm>
I fell asleep about quarter of an hour into the episode and woke up at the end and I thought "OH I'VE MISSED SOMETHING" so I went back and watched it but alas
I had missed nothing. The Bill, Nardole & Doc dynamic is still great but this whole Monk thing has been a real dull suspensionless plot-holey trudge.
If you're going to tackle issues - and the production team had said that's what they were doing - like totalitarian regimes, then I think you've got a responsibility to be honest about them.
Life under the monks didn't seem too bad. Sure, you'd get carted off if you said they hadn't always been around but apart from that all that they asked was that you wore standard issue clothing. Having queued up today behind somebody at the supermarket whose arsecrack was on display I'd welcome the monks.
It also seemed pretty easy to get around in this supposed totalitarian regime.
Fairy dust fixes too much in Doctor Who at the moment but the frustration is that when the right writer comes along they are able to solve any problems logically and with no cop out. 3 weeks earlier we had Oxygen where the Doctor was trapped by a horde of space zombies with his companion apparently dead. All of this were solved satisfactorily and cleverly with no fall back on deus ex machina.
Again, it comes down to a weakness of script editing. Really, they need a showrunner providing an arc and guidance, but a really powerful script editor to make sure the writing is consistent, coherent, and otherwise decent.
Quote from: Huey2 on 09 June, 2017, 02:56:30 PM
Life under the monks didn't seem too bad.
I had to read this a few times to be sure it wasn't some kind of ironic satire - if it isn't a joke, than all I can say is :o
With the DUP coming in to prop up May, it's all relative.
I had to read this a few times to be sure it wasn't some kind of ironic satire - if it isn't a joke, than all I can say is :o
Okay, sorry, perhaps I was being a tad flippant and, no, I wouldn't want to live in Monkworld. Sorry if any offense was caused
But,... I do think that if you are going to tell a story about the population living under an oppressive evil dictatorship then you have a responsibility - especially to the younger viewers - to show that this would be a really, really bad thing. I don't think the writers did this.
if I think of other times Doctor who has plonked down into evil regimes - the Dalek Invasion of Earth, the Sunmakers or Vengeance on Varos are a few that instantly spring to mind - the story always does 4 things.
1). It makes it really obvious why this is a bad place to live.
2). It gives us an everyman character who lives here. They show us how they are suffering in this world and also introduce us to the set-up
3). They give us a villain to hiss and
4). Throughout the tale we get plenty of other reminders as to why this is a really, really bad place.
They didn't do that. We do get an introduction where a nameless character is carted off for thought crimes. And then that's it. No other reminders why this is a bad place, no named who live here ( I think the stupid guard got a name but his sole characteristic was stupidity) and no understanding of why the Monks were such bad people.
After the set up we got distractions.
Bill and Nardole have very little problem getting to the Doctor. The Monks are aware that he is the biggest threat to them and yet they don't jail him or torture him as would happen if he was the biggest threat to any real fascist regime. They give him an office and ask him to make their promotional materials. He can have gunfire going off in his office and they don't bother to check what's going on. After that, his merry band can swan off when they feel like it. Deliberately crashing a huge boat instead of sneaking about also doesn't bring any heavy pursuit. Basically, the Doctor appears to have a lot of freedom.
This whole section seems to be there because it's got lots of cool things for the trailer: Bill can shoot the Doctor - with very, very little provocation and the Doctor can fake a regeneration - pointless if Bill has never seen a regeneration before. And then he gets to argue that democracy is a bad thing. Fine, if a counter argument is used - it isn't. This speech goes unchallenged even if the Doctor clearly doesn't believe it himself.
Distraction 2 is the visit to see Missy because they've got to crowbar the story arc in there. We learn that Bill is the only link the monks have to the real world but rather than ensure her safety by keeping her locked up - she's able to live outside. The idea that the only way to save the world was to sacrifice Bill wouldn't be a bad one if we saw more of what she was saving the world from.
And then, our heroes accompanied by unnamed cannon fodder sneak into the Monk headquarters with very little problem until a gunfight is needed to kill off the redshirts.
In there we see how the Monks are keeping the population brainwashed. And here is the only character we ever see actually suffer on screen - a Monk. These alien overlords aren't living a life of luxury feeding on the blood of the people. One of the poor sods is stuck in a chair 24/7 so that his thoughts can keep the population under control. Why? What's in it for them?
Then there's some nonsense which saves the day. The end scene which follows reveals that no magic reset or time reversal is needed - people just forgot about it. Literally. Nothing clever. Nothing timey-wimey. So the evil, alien dictatorship can't have been all bad can it?
I'm sorry to have ranted but the opportunity to tell a 1984 style tale can't happen every week and this seems a really bodged chance. Three weeks earlier the target had been corporations who put profits before workers. They managed to do that. this was a much bigger target.
I thought the Movellans were an unlikely comeback, but...Alpha Centauri? ;)
Big Finish episodes on iplayer now.
Quote...carted off for thought crimes. And then that's it.
Er, isn't that bad enough?
I really liked the Ice Warriors episode. Very old school, but that style still works. The segue into Curse of Peladon was awesome as was "God Save The Queen" on Mars (a variation on the opening of First Men In The Moon, which has stuck with me since childhood).
I've noticed a huge improvement in Gatiss's scripts since the early days and this was possibly his best yet. Shame he's not taking over as showrunner, really, except that would have represented "more of the same".
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 10 June, 2017, 10:06:02 PM
I thought the Movellans were an unlikely comeback, but...Alpha Centauri? ;)
Not as big a surprise as it was to spot it was voiced by the same actress as it was in 1972 - 92 year old Ysanne Churchman coming out of retirement just to put a surprised smile on the faces of old school Doctor Who fans!
Quote from: Lobo Baggins on 11 June, 2017, 11:47:42 AM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 10 June, 2017, 10:06:02 PM
I thought the Movellans were an unlikely comeback, but...Alpha Centauri? ;)
Not as big a surprise as it was to spot it was voiced by the same actress as it was in 1972 - 92 year old Ysanne Churchman coming out of retirement just to put a surprised smile on the faces of old school Doctor Who fans!
Indeed...making her the oldest person ever to make an appearance in Doctor Who in the process.
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 11 June, 2017, 03:39:13 PM
Quote from: Lobo Baggins on 11 June, 2017, 11:47:42 AM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 10 June, 2017, 10:06:02 PM
I thought the Movellans were an unlikely comeback, but...Alpha Centauri? ;)
Not as big a surprise as it was to spot it was voiced by the same actress as it was in 1972 - 92 year old Ysanne Churchman coming out of retirement just to put a surprised smile on the faces of old school Doctor Who fans!
Indeed...making her the oldest person ever to make an appearance in Doctor Who in the process.
I recognised who it was supposed to be, but had no idea it was the same actress! Must also make it the longest time between appearances (possibly for any show, not just Doctor Who). Three episodes in 45 years!
Roman legion episode was okay. Obvious filler, but perfectly watchable.
Have to say that this season Missy has been awesome. Please don't screw this up, Moffat!
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 18 June, 2017, 10:27:03 AM
Roman legion episode was okay. Obvious filler, but perfectly watchable.
Have to say that this season Missy has been awesome. Please don't screw this up, Moffat!
Couldn't agree more.
The episode was pretty run of the mill, but the final scene with Capaldi was electric, with stunning performances from Capaldi and Michelle Gomez.
Oddly enough, I'm in the opposite camp- I really enjoyed that episode, after a couple of ropey ones, but I've really not bought into any of the Missy In The Vault Becoming Good stuff. It feels to me like they've not given her enough motivation to do so, or is that what the execution scene was setting up a few episodes ago?
Whatever, this season's still been the best one since Tennant left for me - here's hoping Moffat doesn't screw it up with one of his LOOK HOW CLEVER I AM finales.
My mum once had a pet crow that could say her name.
Also, several decades ago, a supposedly wild crow overheard my grandmother telling my dad to "hurry up" and loudly repeated the words, closely followed by the addition of "...or you'll be late for the school!" My dad was in his twenties at the time.
Quite a few nods to actual folklore in that episode.
I know captive ravens can be taught to speak. Being similar birds, I guess crows might have the knack as well.
Quote from: Mardroid on 18 June, 2017, 02:23:20 PM
I know captive ravens can be taught to speak. Being similar birds, I guess crows might have the knack as well.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ0yrG-Yz88
Quote from: Mardroid on 18 June, 2017, 02:23:20 PM
I know captive ravens can be taught to speak. Being similar birds, I guess crows might have the knack as well.
I used to think that was bollocks, but nevermore!
... I'll get my coat. :wave:
With yesterday's episode, Rona Munro has become the only person to have written for both the classic series and the new series of Doctor Who, having previously written the Sylvester McCoy story 'Survival'.
"Death by Scotland."
Brilliant :)
This was an OK episode, but to be honest every other episode has been great. Can't believe I'm actually enjoying Capaldi's Doctor after the last 2 abysmal seasons.
QuoteIt feels to me like they've not given her enough motivation to do so,
Isn't 1,000 years imprisoned in a vault enough?
Quote from: Andy Lambert on 18 June, 2017, 08:12:26 PM
"Death by Scotland."
Brilliant :)
Great line.
A better episode this week than the last 3 in my view, but still not as good as the first half of the season.
The sheen is starting to wear off Bill & Nardole slightly too.
Still, only three episodes left with the mighty Capaldi (including the Christmas special)- I intend to enjoy them.
The teaser for next week looks great too.
I haven't been watching this series (after moaning relentlessly about the last one, I thought it best to have the courage of my convictions and give up on it) but I may be lured back briefly next week just to see [spoiler]the John Simm Master. He'd always said he wished he'd played it a little more subtly first time around, so it'll be interesting to see his interpretation.[/spoiler]
Oh, my giddy aunt!
That was bloody great.
That was good! [spoiler]It suggests a change in the origins of the Mondasian Cybermen. Weren't they actually created on Mondas rather than a colony ship en route? I haven't seen the early Cybermen episodes, however, so I could be wrong about that. But I do remember reading that they were converted to cope with the extreme cold of Mondas. On the other hand, maybe the ship originally left with the intention that the crew escape the hostile environment of Mondas, and they went back after conversion, possibly converting the rest of the population left behind. [/spoiler]
Interested to see the next episode!
Cracking episode tonight, though all the best ideas and concepts for the story were lifted straight from the Big Finish audio 'Spare Parts'. Still, if you're gonna pinch another writer's ideas then there are a lot worse writers than Marc Platt to take them from. :P
Also, I completely failed to recognise that 'that' character was in fact 'that other character'. (Damn the broken spoiler button) Great piece of acting.
Finally, a stone cold classic, the first of the entire Capaldi era.
(Totally lifted from Spare Parts, much more so than the parallel Earth Cybermen story that Marc Platt got a credit for).
Another excellent one. This has been a consistently good series, and next week looks like it's going to be absolutely phenomenal!
[spoiler]John simm pulled an ainley I loved that :lol:[/spoiler]
I'm so glad Capaldi's run is finally so good, but why does his tenure as the Doctor have to be so short? He's been absolutely bloody superb.
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 25 June, 2017, 09:20:46 AM
I'm so glad Capaldi's run is finally so good, but why does his tenure as the Doctor have to be so short? He's been absolutely bloody superb.
He'll have been in the role for four years/three seasons. Which is pretty much the norm in the history of the show.
(Patrick Troughton's famous advice to Peter Davison - it's a great role, but don't do it for any more than three series.)
I suspect for some it's disappointment due to the fact the show's really hit it's stride. Arguably, though, it could be doing that because everyone's on the way out now and giving it extra. (Although I'd argue Capaldi has been good throughout, if inconsistently directed and written.)
For the first 10 minutes, I thought the episode was awful - typical cringe-inducing, convoluted Moffat, with Missy as much an inducement to switch off as ever. But as soon as it got onto the 'Bill amongst the patients' stuff, I thought it was great - typical atmospheric Moffat, always the area he excels at. I also didn't twig till quite late in the programme [spoiler]who the Master was[/spoiler], which was good. Not really seeing the point of Nardole, but maybe I would if I'd watched more of the series.
I wasn't thrilled when Nardole was brought back, but he's been used in small bursts, which has been fine. As noted, he's 'Comic Relief'.
I think the writer took fan waffle into account considering the meta-gags at the start.
Examples:
"Doctor Who."
"Nardole, I do something non irritating." *
*Not that I personally found Nardole irritating. He's a bit of a mother hen type character, sure, but I find that quite amusing, and he is actually very intelligent and competent. But he's the type of character many would be irritated by, or more accurately prejudge to be irritating before they acutely see his performance, partly due to Matt Lucas's past characters.
A note of caution. In my view, the only other genuinely superb Capaldi episode has been Heaven Sent, but that was followed immediately by the supremely terrible Hell Bent.
Hopefully lightning doesn't strike twice, and yet I don't entirely trust The Moff not to screw this up...
I like Nardole, so there!
And Missy is brilliant.
Quote from: Mardroid on 25 June, 2017, 03:05:18 PM
"Nardole, I do something non irritating."
I'd irritating when my phone adds extra characters.
Quote*Not that I personally found Nardole irritating. He's a bit of a mother hen type character, sure, but I find that quite amusing, and he is actually very intelligent and competent. But he's the type of character many would be irritated by, or more accurately prejudge to be irritating before they acutely see his performance, partly due to Matt Lucas's past characters.
acutely=actually
Oh for an edit button!
I love it! I like it!
It could be much better if they don't featured [spoiler]Mondasian Cybermen and the Master[/spoiler] in any trailer or last week teaser! :-[
Really enjoyable episode but the [spoiler]rubbish modern cybermen[/spoiler] in the trailer for next week don't bode too well.
Quote from: Goaty on 26 June, 2017, 11:31:19 AM
I love it! I like it!
It could be much better if they don't featured in any trailer or last week teaser! :-[
I try to switch off before any trailers appear :(
Some episodes (and films) are pretty well constructed to reveal surprises, which have been completely obliterated by trailers, and in the case of one new-Who first series episode, the title.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 25 June, 2017, 01:11:40 PM
I suspect for some it's disappointment due to the fact the show's really hit it's stride. Arguably, though, it could be doing that because everyone's on the way out now and giving it extra. (Although I'd argue Capaldi has been good throughout, if inconsistently directed and written.)
I think Capaldi has been fantastic, as have some individual episodes and scenes in his run. The rest of the writing, on the other hand...
Quote from: Goaty on 26 June, 2017, 11:31:19 AM
I love it! I like it!
It could be much better if they don't featured [spoiler]Mondasian Cybermen and the Master[/spoiler] in any trailer or last week teaser! :-[
Mike Collins (who storyboards for the show) said that [spoiler]Simm was supposed to be a surprise — it was a secret from a lot of the Who staff and crew that he was even on set[/spoiler] but once it leaked they pretty much had to run with it. The Cybermen did a bunch of outdoor shooting, so they were never going to keep that one secret.
Quote from: JamesC on 26 June, 2017, 11:50:01 AM
Really enjoyable episode but the [spoiler]rubbish modern cybermen[/spoiler] in the trailer for next week don't bode too well.
Although I had no idea about that, having not watched the trailer. Hrng.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 26 June, 2017, 02:09:53 PM
Quote from: JamesC on 26 June, 2017, 11:50:01 AM
Really enjoyable episode but the [spoiler]rubbish modern cybermen[/spoiler] in the trailer for next week don't bode too well.
Although I had no idea about that, having not watched the trailer. Hrng.
Oh shit - sorry!
Apologies to anyone I spoiled it for.
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 25 June, 2017, 06:31:09 PM
In my view, the only other genuinely superb Capaldi episode has been Heaven Sent
Still my favorite Capaldi episode, but this week's was a delight.
I copped it was John Simm immediately (because: duh), but probably would have been pleasantly surprised without the pre-spoiler that he was returning.
Geared up for the finale, which must include;
- The actual regeneration (not a cliffhanger til Christmas).
- Missy breaking good.
- The titanium cojones to not hit the reset button for Bill.
QuoteAlthough I had no idea about that, having not watched the trailer.
It's in a spoiler tag.
I assume IP added that afterwards to save others from the spoiler. It didn't occur to me to add them.
I did indeed.
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 25 June, 2017, 06:31:09 PM
In my view, the only other genuinely superb Capaldi episode has been Heaven Sent
I don't think I was the only one to note that 'Heaven Sent' seemed to owe a fairly heavy debt to Iain (non-M*) Banks' superb 'Walking On Glass', though...
*Although, TBH, it was comfortably halfway to being an 'M' novel.
Sorry Indigo, I didn't know you could do that.
Quote from: Richard on 26 June, 2017, 11:23:58 PM
Sorry Indigo, I didn't know you could do that.
I have [spoiler]the power[/spoiler]!
" The titanium cojones to not hit the reset button for Bill."
I'm probably in the minority here but I'd like Bill to be okay.
I remember at the end of Moffatt's first year, how refreshing it was to have a finale that wasn't aiming for a tear jerker but instead gave a proper feel-good triumphant ending. We've been back with the emo endings for a while.
Also, I quite like the Doctor to have improved people's lives instead of ruined them. He's pretty much messed up every companion over the last 7 years.
Amy and Rory - exiled to the past away from any friends or family.
Danny Pink - Dead. Psychologically tortured in a virtual afterlife. Revived as a Cyberman. Dead again.
Clara - Died in agony. Sure, the Doctor extended her life just before she dies. However, she still has to go back to the raven to be killed off and has to choose when she's going to do this - effectively commiting suicide.
River - dead. A copy of her exists but it's trapped in a library.
When I saw the trailers, I couldn't stand Bill, but she really works in the actual show. I think it'd be great to see her as a bridge between series, but it's hard to see how they could reset her character now she's been converted (unless said conversion is less extreme than it later is for Cybermen).
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 27 June, 2017, 09:27:49 PM
it's hard to see how they could reset her character now she's been converted (unless said conversion is less extreme than it later is for Cybermen).
Well James Corden got better simply by thinking fluffy thoughts, but that was a horrible cop-out. I agree this would've been a better episode if I hadn't been trying to anticipate [spoiler]John Simm/the cybermen[/spoiler] all the way through, and - ( is it a spoiler to be
dispapointed in advance?) [spoiler]the modern cybermen[/spoiler]
Overall though, it's lookng like a good conclusion to the best series so far - I'll miss Capaldi
I'm guessing the inclusion of the modern Cybermen is down to time passing more quickly in the lower part of the spaceship, so we're seeing the Cybermen develop and evolve more quickly into their current counterparts.
Quote from: Andy Lambert on 29 June, 2017, 02:50:45 PM
I'm guessing the inclusion of the modern Cybermen is down to time passing more quickly in the lower part of the spaceship, so we're seeing the Cybermen develop and evolve more quickly into their current counterparts.
I wouldn't have thought so (haven't watched the trailer, but I assume we're talking about the Trigger Cybermen?) - the old type has an alien origin while the new type has a terrestrial contemporary albeit alternate reality origin.
Dont try to navigate the timeline of the Cybermen into a coherent whole, they countradict themselves at every turn.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 29 June, 2017, 02:59:15 PM
Dont try to navigate the timeline of the Cybermen into a coherent whole, they countradict themselves at every turn.
Well, no, that's the thing - they're entirely different cybermen.
Well, I'm speculating of course, I've just assumed that at some point during their evolution, the alien Cybermen also adopted the style of the Cybus variety, but I concede, I'm probably just trying to make sense of their inclusion. The time anomaly of the spaceship seemed like a sound consideration to me...
According to Neil Gaiaman concerning the Cybermen in his episode, the most modern iteration are supposed to be a hybrid of both Mondasian origin and Cybus industries Cybermen. The idea being they joined up at some point and exchanged technology.
While they do look similar to the Cybus Cybermen, there is a difference in the breastplate armour, if you compare.
Of course this still suggests the cybus guys should appear at some point to explain the change in appearance. Alternatively I guess they could have exchanged design schematics via a space phone call...
Cybus Industries did of course exist in 'our' universe, as International Electromatics, so theres a crossover.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 29 June, 2017, 04:13:24 PM
Cybus Industries did of course exist in 'our' universe, as International Electromatics, so theres a crossover.
Been a while since I saw the relevant episodes - there was a whole bunch of dimension-hopping around the same time that tied in to the finale, wasn't there?
'Course I'm not crying. Why would I be crying? Though...I do suppose...where there's tears, there's hope.
Hmmm.
Lots of nice ideas, mired in a huge amount of over-complexity and fannishness, almost topped off with a massive cop out, with an actual top off that summed all of that up in one single notion, but did leave me grinning somewhat....
Plus, [spoiler]Why didnt the pilot turn up sometime before everyone was as dead as could be? Its alsmost as if she couldnt do that ANd be a dues Ex MAchina (copyright RTD criticisms 2005-2009)[/spoiler]
I really enjoyed that. It had its faults but overall it was loads of fun. Really looking forward to the Xmas special now!
I was amused by the (rather arcane) reference to Grant Morrison's 'The World Shapers' Dr. Who comic buried in there.
It's not technically a deus ex machina if it's set up [spoiler]in the first episode of the series[/spoiler].
Quote from: M.I.K. on 01 July, 2017, 08:06:04 PM
It's not technically a deus ex machina if it's set up [spoiler]in the first episode of the series[/spoiler].
Its more the timing than anything....
Quite.
[spoiler]I can follow you through your tears, but fuck it, I won't bother when you're being butchered into a cyberman, or the trauma afterwards even though I could stalk you across time and space pretty much instantly in the first episode... I'll just wait until the last possible moment[/spoiler]
Quote from: Greg M. on 01 July, 2017, 08:04:51 PM
I was amused by the (rather arcane) reference to Grant Morrison's 'The World Shapers' Dr. Who comic buried in there.
Aha, yes. I hadn't noticed that until you mentioned it.
Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. Maybe water-lady just thought all that stuff was character building.
Maybe she did try to get through, but couldn't make it in time through the time dilation.
Also revealed tonight was the fact that John Simm's Master carries his own eye liner. ;)
Quote from: JamesC on 01 July, 2017, 08:52:27 PM
Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. Maybe water-lady just thought all that stuff was character building.
She must be related to Calvin's Dad.
it was....weird seeing john simm play the master straight after the other times he played it he was nutty as nut
also the world shapers reference must have flew by the head of whoever does the did you knows on the bbc website :lol:
Regretfully, I was disappointed with that finale.
Some enjoyable elements and fine acting (Michelle Gomez in particular) were let down by a choppy and sometimes groan inducing script.
All could have been forgiven if the ending hadn't watered the situation down (*cough*) and played out slightly different. They had it there in front of them;
- Bill's Cyberman body clunks to the ground. She stands above it in spirit form. Water girl appears, they smile, embrace and disappear. The viewer is then invited to extrapolate Bill's ultimate fate, not left wondering "where the f*ck was yer wan when they really needed her".
- The Doctor somehow makes it back to the TARDIS, then collapses. The TARDIS automatically powers up, and delivers him to his icy location.
- Run the last minute as shown.
The Christmas episode should be fun, maybe a Scrooge-esqe introspective of The Doctors lengthy life, with the original acting as the ghost of Christmas past.
Oh dear, another disappointing finale.
Not quite as terrible as last season, but it still left me pretty frustrated and annoyed.
Things I liked:
The way Bill's situation was resolved
John Simm's performance
Thing I didn't like:
The Time of the Doctor / Asylum of the Daleks mashup
Missy vs The Master (really, really hated this)
The newer cybermen
Once again the main attraction of Doctor Who is the Next Time teaser or equivalent cliffhanger. What's the betting that the Christmas special is actually crap but that the regeneration at least gives people something to hang on to.... eg. the hope that one day a really good story might actually arrive?
PS Chibnall needs to bring Bill back. She's awesome.
Magical puddle lady [spoiler]who is murderous alien parasite and not the woman Bill met once and fell in love with, has travelled the universe and so most likely knows about the existence of time lords, tricks Bill into think her best friend is dead, after leaving Bill in years of abject misery and to die. True love.[/spoiler]
Missy [spoiler] forgets creating the Cybermen, spending hundred of years on a spaceship as part of an elaborate plan, or shooting her future self in the back, but remembers to carry a space widget mcguffin[/spoiler]
Bill [spoiler]chooses to escape with magic puddle lady to the Tardis to leave the doctors body (lucky she didn't cremate him) but makes no mention of poor Nardole and his refugees, flying off to explore all of space and time in a diner paddling pool[/spoiler]
As usual, I thought an excellent set-up episode was followed by the worst of Moffat's "LOOK HOW CLEVER WE ARE!" Excesses. How the hell did they make it so DULL? What was the point of bringing THAT character back last week? And was it as bad as "and then a magic eye opened in the sky and gave him another 13 lives"?
Yes, I think it was. Shame really, I've mostly really enjoyed this series.
Well I loved it!
Missy ain't dead. She knew she'd be shot. Had some sort of defense so the master would think he succeeded.
Quote from: The Monarch on 02 July, 2017, 03:45:41 AM
it was....weird seeing john simm play the master straight after the other times he played it he was nutty as nut
I much preferred this take on Simm's Master, right down to the costume.
Quote from: Vicsage on 02 July, 2017, 02:50:21 PM
Missy ain't dead. She knew she'd be shot. Had some sort of defense so the master would think he succeeded.
I think she's dead. She had been redeemed so don't see where else this version of the character can go. & most importantly the idea that the John Simm Master regenerates into Missy was left deliberatley vague. We didn't see it happen so there is room for other Masters between Simm & Missy if they want to bring the character back
Quotethere is room for other Masters between Simm & Missy if they want to bring the character back
Good point.
I loved this episode. Missy was brilliant as usual, and I liked the contrast between her and her evil predecessor, and their showdown at the end.
I think there hadn't been a bad episode this year. It's been a top series.
[spoiler]A bit disappointing that we didn't see the regeneration we were promised. But Waldo Frey will make a brilliant First Doctor, so there's that to look forward to.[/spoiler] Hopefully the Xmas episode will be just as good.
QuoteMissy ain't dead.
I'd certainly be sad to see her go. Michelle Gomez has been an absolute joy, a lighthearted sarcastic villian against the dour Doctor (Although I am disappointed by the BBC's continual pushing of the pro-scot agenda)
However...if the master hadn't
thought he had killed the Mistress, he'd have no reason to try to make it to his Tardis - since his death would be the only way to stop her...and the timeline could be actively changed by just one to affect the other, as demonstrate by the bang on the head he got earlier.
I am 100% certain that The Master will be back, but probably not as Missy. More than likely she does regenerate and turns evil again (because if she was good she'd be Doctor Who, and we already have one of those).
Missy's 'death' was definitely purposefully vague (and we've seen her do that kind of thing before). She'd never be good good but she could be chaotic neutral.
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 02 July, 2017, 04:31:04 PM
I am 100% certain that The Master will be back, but probably not as Missy. More than likely she does regenerate and turns evil again (because if she was good she'd be Doctor Who, and we already have one of those).
Might be a twist regeneration with Missy as Doctor Who. I still think it will probably be a bloke maybe the original Doctor since he's appeared in this episode. Afetr all the original Doctor ala Hartwell might be a good place to start again.
He can't regenerate into the First Dr, that doesn't make any sense!
Can't he/she?
Didn't Peter Capaldi's Doctor take the face of that guy in Pompeii?
Can't see why the Master/Missy couldn't do the same as some psychological game with the Doctor.
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 02 July, 2017, 05:34:52 PM
I still think it will probably be a bloke maybe the original Doctor since he's appeared in this episode. Afetr all the original Doctor ala Hartwell might be a good place to start again.
Zero chance of that. Great as Capaldi's been, he's a disaster for selling toys and merchandise -- there's a reason Panini's younger-targeted DW title is on hiatus until (possibly) next year. I guarantee they'll go back to young and quirky. There did seem to be some heavy hints (although equally likely to be mis-direction) that the next Doctor will be a woman. Smart money, if they
do go for it, seems to on Phoebe Waller-Bridge.
(I'm entirely unaware of her work, but I'm not averse to the idea of a female Doctor.)
Yep. Ratings are still in a slump. Merch sales flatlined. The kids aren't watching anymore.
The next Doc will be younger, and the stories lighter and breezier. Expect a package aimed at a return to the Tennant (ratings and merch sales) glory days.
Yep.
My stepson watches but whenever regeneration comes up his eyes light up and quickly he asks whether this means the Doctor will be young again. Kris Marshall wouldn't be my pick but it seems like it would fit the mould of what works as the Doctor in the current climate.
And I think the women Doctor is at the same point as what RTD said - technically possible but a bad idea because it would confuse the kids. To take that a step further confusing the kids means bothered parents, which makes them less inclined to buy merchandise or even let them watch. Again my stepson came in with the Matt Smith-era because of when he met me. Trying to explain Missy/Master to a nine-year old was very painful...and that's something who likes the show. I know my wife has often shouted at him for bothering her with questions about Cyberman or Weeping Angels lol.
Maybe the War Doctor should have been a Women to test the waters? That would have been interesting inversion of traditional gender roles. And imagine Maggie Smith reading all John Hurt's lines in Day of the Doctor and try to deny it becomes an even better episode.
Quote from: GordonR on 02 July, 2017, 06:55:05 PM
The next Doc will be younger, and the stories lighter and breezier.
Or it'll be Olivia Coleman and every storyline will feature a murdered child... CHIBNALL! ;-)
Quote from: Will Cooling on 02 July, 2017, 07:13:14 PM
Maybe the War Doctor should have been a Women to test the waters? That would have been interesting inversion of traditional gender roles. And imagine Maggie Smith reading all John Hurt's lines in Day of the Doctor and try to deny it becomes an even better episode.
(...Insert obvious political comment about 'war-obsessed, gender-role-inverting woman named Maggie' here...)
I actually once suggested, in nothing more than a conversation with a friend, that the War Doctor would indeed have been the place to trial a female Doctor. My own choice for that role would have been the gravelly voiced Frances De La Tour.
The Good:
Missy/ The Master Shooting Himself/ Herself in the back!
The Bad:
Another Cop-Out on "Killing" The Companion
The Ugly:
Going straight to the Nu-Who Cybermen. Shouldn't Mondasian Cybermen evolve into Classic-Who Cybermen :-*
I thought that was pissin awful. As well as being even more of a blatant LGBT advert than last weeks with all the gender change discussions and gay kiss at the end the Cybermen weren't scary at all.
Plus they had woman Bill being turned into a Cyberman (yet more gender change nonsense) and hanging about in a completely non threatening way. Utter shite!
Oh fuck Billy Big Balkacks is back to piss on a perfectly good finale.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 02 July, 2017, 09:11:26 PM
As well as being even more of a blatant LGBT advert than last weeks
Or, possibly, this stuff is just normal and TV entertainment should reflect that, and the
real problem only exists in your nasty, bigoted little mind?
FFS, the word "cyberman" doesn't mean that women can't be cybermen! You're such a bigot, you can't even string together a coherent argument.
DO NOT FEED
Quote from: Richard on 02 July, 2017, 09:33:21 PM
FFS, the word "cyberman" doesn't mean that women can't be cybermen! You're such a bigot, you can't even string together a coherent argument.
"Human... hu-MAN. Women can't be human, because they're not MEN. Don't you SEE, you FOOL?! It's all part of the BBC's plan to shove their
cock gay agenda down our throats!"
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 02 July, 2017, 09:31:04 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 02 July, 2017, 09:11:26 PM
As well as being even more of a blatant LGBT advert than last weeks
Or, possibly, this stuff is just normal and TV entertainment should reflect that, and the real problem only exists in your nasty, bigoted little mind?
Being LGBT is normal yes. Using a tv show like Dr Who as a blatant advert for the LGBT lobby isn't. And that was blatant.
"That word you keep using, I do not think it means what you think it means."
Quote from: Richard on 02 July, 2017, 09:33:21 PM
FFS, the word "cyberman" doesn't mean that women can't be cybermen! You're such a bigot, you can't even string together a coherent argument.
Likewise. So what about the Cyberwoman in Torchwood then? Can she be a CyberMAN? Have the Cybermen been always known as Cybermen or Cyberwomen?
Quote from: Timothy on 02 July, 2017, 09:37:59 PM
DO NOT FEED
What people who have a differnt viewpoint to you?
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 02 July, 2017, 09:51:55 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 02 July, 2017, 09:31:04 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 02 July, 2017, 09:11:26 PM
As well as being even more of a blatant LGBT advert than last weeks
Or, possibly, this stuff is just normal and TV entertainment should reflect that, and the real problem only exists in your nasty, bigoted little mind?
Being LGBT is normal yes. Using a tv show like Dr Who as a blatant advert for the LGBT lobby isn't. And that was blatant.
You must be pleased they've moved on from when they were shoving Clara's Hetrosexuality down our throats through her relationship with Danny Pink, particularly as that came hot on the heels of Amy and Rory's rampant Hetrosexuality...not to mention the fact that all three characters shoved their cis-gender identities in our faces every second they were on screen.
Utter filth.
Why...when I was young we were mere amoeba, without the need for any of this modern nonsense.
Are you genuinely worried that Dr Who might turn children gay? Or are you genuinely worried that it might encourage children to treat gay people with dignity? What is the worst case scenario for you here?
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 02 July, 2017, 09:58:10 PM
Quote from: Richard on 02 July, 2017, 09:33:21 PM
FFS, the word "cyberman" doesn't mean that women can't be cybermen! You're such a bigot, you can't even string together a coherent argument.
Likewise. So what about the Cyberwoman in Torchwood then? Can she be a CyberMAN? Have the Cybermen been always known as Cybermen or Cyberwomen?
Cybermen are a cybernetically augmented race of people. So are Daleks. Their gender has always been irrelevant because they're little more than machines and don't reproduce in the usual fashion. Where the flip do you think all the cyberwomen were in Doctor Who previous to that nonsensical abomination in Torchwood? Back at home in their cyberkitchens baking cyberscones in their cyberpinnies?
BREAKING: Marvel Studios and 20th Century Fox to rename their properties X-Persons after man on internet forum for middle aged fans of English porn comic 20,000 Ad points out glaring factual inaccuracy. Stan Lee: "I'm glad Jack is dead so he doesn't have to see how wrong we were. I feel like such a fucking idiot."
Apart from the slightly iffy monks, that was a great season. Gutted we can't have more episodes with all three, Bill, Nardole and Capaldi Doctor. I am though very hopeful that Big Finish will sort this out for us. Actually Missy/John Simm were also rather good.
Quote from: edgeworthy on 02 July, 2017, 08:27:16 PM
Going straight to the Nu-Who Cybermen. Shouldn't Mondasian Cybermen evolve into Classic-Who Cybermen :-*
Actually from a Cybermen timeline perspective, the 'war' model Cybermen to feature in this episode, should be an early iteration to evolve into the Cybermen seen in early Who.
As for the similarity to the Cybus Cybermen: I remember finding a site a few years back devoted to Cybus Industries. I believe it was a kind of meta-site created by the team producing modern Who, or the Web stuff at least. I'm not sure how canon the information on that site should be considered, but there was a section dealing with the origins of the Cybus Cybermen.
Remember the Eccleston episode, Dalek, with the American with the underground base full of alien stuff, including the titular Dalek and a cyberman's head.
According to the website, that underground base with the alien collection also existed in that universe. Cybus appropriated the head (suggesting the Mondasian Cybermen also exist in that universe, or possibly crossed dimensions at some point) , and based their own Cybermen on that technology.
The head in the Dalek episode was actually one from an Old-Who episode but maybe it retained a memory of the New Who but older time period design and utilised it for the Cybus Cybermen. (Just my speculation there.)
Of course, the real world explanation for the new-look cybermen in the latest episode is probably simply economical, I. E. it's cheaper to just use the suits available than knock up new ones.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 02 July, 2017, 09:11:26 PM
I thought that was pissin awful. As well as being even more of a blatant LGBT advert than last weeks with all the gender change discussions and gay kiss at the end the Cybermen weren't scary at all.
Plus they had woman Bill being turned into a Cyberman (yet more gender change nonsense) and hanging about in a completely non threatening way. Utter shite!
Ladies and gentlemen, in the days before London Pride (and a whole host of other Pride marches around the world), the case for why we still need to celebrate diversity.
'LGBT advert'?
Sold! I'm now a gay.
It worked.
::)
FFS.
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 03 July, 2017, 01:39:55 PM
'LGBT advert'?
Sold! I'm now a gay.
It worked.
::)
FFS.
And if we all turn gay, how will we perpetuate the human race?
I must vent my bigotry and anger on a social network!!!!!! ;)
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 03 July, 2017, 01:39:55 PM
'LGBT advert'?
Sold! I'm now a gay.
It worked.
::)
FFS.
Welcome to the party, angst and self loathing while you wait.
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 03 July, 2017, 01:39:55 PM
'LGBT advert'?
Sold! I'm now a gay.
It worked.
::)
FFS.
Does FFS stand for Facial Feminisation Surgery? Because if you haven't also become trans now then the advert hasn't worked fully. ;)
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 03 July, 2017, 02:11:09 PM
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 03 July, 2017, 01:39:55 PM
'LGBT advert'?
Sold! I'm now a gay.
It worked.
::)
FFS.
Welcome to the party, angst and self loathing while you wait.
Disappointed. We have that in the heterosexual club too :(
I may take this 'advert' to the trading standards!
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 03 July, 2017, 03:29:31 PM
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 03 July, 2017, 01:39:55 PM
'LGBT advert'?
Sold! I'm now a gay.
It worked.
::)
FFS.
Does FFS stand for Facial Feminisation Surgery? Because if you haven't also become trans now then the advert hasn't worked fully. ;)
I want my money back!
Quote from: dweezil2 on 03 July, 2017, 02:06:57 PM
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 03 July, 2017, 01:39:55 PM
'LGBT advert'?
Sold! I'm now a gay.
It worked.
::)
FFS.
And if we all turn gay, how will we perpetuate the human race?
I must vent my bigotry and anger on a social network!!!!!! ;)
Yes - the human race is in real danger of dying out if we all turn gay from watching Doctor Who! (don't mention the over-population)
Quote from: sheridan on 03 July, 2017, 01:35:26 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, in the days before London Pride... the case for why we still need to celebrate diversity.
One might argue the special goggles a few pints of London Pride provides helps one celebrate diversity more deeply.... although one might regret it in the morning.
Sorry....
Quote from: sheridan on 03 July, 2017, 04:50:50 PM
Quote from: dweezil2 on 03 July, 2017, 02:06:57 PM
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 03 July, 2017, 01:39:55 PM
'LGBT advert'?
Sold! I'm now a gay.
It worked.
::)
FFS.
And if we all turn gay, how will we perpetuate the human race?
I must vent my bigotry and anger on a social network!!!!!! ;)
Yes - the human race is in real danger of dying out if we all turn gay from watching Doctor Who! (don't mention the over-population)
It's a genuine concern apparently! :lol:
I think the writers stated they wanted a Gay companion for a fairer representation. That might be uncomfortable for some viewers, and to this old cynic its a bit of Metro Lite approved minorities box ticking , but they wanted to modernise Dr Who and so the first Gay Companion we have with the masculine name of Bill Potts. I think she's been excellent and bounced off the Doctor well they had some chemistry but the finale despite all the explosions and Cyberman blasting didn't Gel for me though I thought the Direction was magnificent.How come Bill Potts was able to resist the mind conditioning of the Cybermen and remember who she was? It ended a bit quick with a 'moistened bint' playing a Deux Ex Machina. Well, we've got the Christmas special to say goodbye to Capaldi and hello to the new Doctor.
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 03 July, 2017, 09:36:57 PM
.How come Bill Potts was able to resist the mind conditioning of the Cybermen and remember who she was? It ended a bit quick with a 'moistened bint' playing a Deux Ex Machina. Well, we've got the Christmas special to say goodbye to Capaldi and hello to the new Doctor.
Bill's ability to resist the mind conditioning was given a whole scene to explain it. :P Bill's mind was strengthened against any form of mind conditioning after she successfully avoided the mind conditioning of the Monk's earlier in the series.
I'm not sure you can strictly call it a Deus Ex Machina if it's been established way back at the start of the series.
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 03 July, 2017, 09:48:17 PM
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 03 July, 2017, 09:36:57 PM
.How come Bill Potts was able to resist the mind conditioning of the Cybermen and remember who she was? It ended a bit quick with a 'moistened bint' playing a Deux Ex Machina. Well, we've got the Christmas special to say goodbye to Capaldi and hello to the new Doctor.
Bill's ability to resist the mind conditioning was given a whole scene to explain it. :P Bill's mind was strengthened against any form of mind conditioning after she successfully avoided the mind conditioning of the Monk's earlier in the series.
I'm not sure you can strictly call it a Deus Ex Machina if it's been established way back at the start of the series.
How did she avoid the mind conditioning yet be able to resist mind control? That's bad logic from my pov but anyway it is a Deux Ex Machina because a God like being intervened to save her from Cyber imprisonment.
A god like being we've seen before and which has shown it can find Bill anywhere in the universe.
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 03 July, 2017, 09:48:17 PMBill's mind was strengthened against any form of mind conditioning after she successfully avoided the mind conditioning of the Monk
Wait, what? Monk, as in Meddling?
Quote from: Eric Plumrose on 03 July, 2017, 10:48:14 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 03 July, 2017, 09:48:17 PMBill's mind was strengthened against any form of mind conditioning after she successfully avoided the mind conditioning of the Monk
Wait, what? Monk, as in Meddling?
Monk as in the race of creatures who took centre stage in the middle trilogy of this series.
"The next Doc will be younger"
It'd be a real shame if the Beeb attributed a fall in ratings to the age of the lead actor, yet any news site speculating on the identity of the 13th Doctor shoves that in there somewhere.
I have enjoyed the majority of the Moffatt era, he's produces some fantastic stories and introduced 3 of the best Doctors ever but IMO some miscalculations on his part have led to a drop-off in raings and they are exactly the same mistakes that led to the hiatus back in the '8os.
- Making the Doctor unlikeable. Capaldi's Doctor has been brilliant in the last two years - especially this one - but was a right sod in his first year.
- Too dark. The "Please don't cremate me" episode from series 8 and the cyber-hospital from last week were not family viewing. Nor has been the massacre of companions over the past three years.
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 03 July, 2017, 10:20:39 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 03 July, 2017, 09:48:17 PM
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 03 July, 2017, 09:36:57 PM
.How come Bill Potts was able to resist the mind conditioning of the Cybermen and remember who she was? It ended a bit quick with a 'moistened bint' playing a Deux Ex Machina. Well, we've got the Christmas special to say goodbye to Capaldi and hello to the new Doctor.
Bill's ability to resist the mind conditioning was given a whole scene to explain it. :P Bill's mind was strengthened against any form of mind conditioning after she successfully avoided the mind conditioning of the Monk's earlier in the series.
I'm not sure you can strictly call it a Deus Ex Machina if it's been established way back at the start of the series.
How did she avoid the mind conditioning yet be able to resist mind control? That's bad logic from my pov but anyway it is a Deux Ex Machina because a God like being intervened to save her from Cyber imprisonment.
She had to resist the Monk's mind conditioning for six months, something which was constantly trying to influence her mind. It was also stated that the only reason she could manage this was because she was the one who let the Monk's in.
That was the on screen explanation anyway. It certainly requires a certain amount of squinting if ou want to accept it.
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 03 July, 2017, 10:57:40 PM
Monk as in the race of creatures who took centre stage in the middle trilogy of this series.
I've watched one episode only of Capaldi's Doctor. 'The Doctor Falls' would be that episode.
I think we've discovered ABCWarBigot's true identity. (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/07/03/lord-tebbit-its-perfectly-sensible-to-think-gay-acts-are-sinful/?utm_source=PNFB&utm_content=ND)
Quote from: Eric Plumrose on 03 July, 2017, 11:15:26 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 03 July, 2017, 10:57:40 PM
Monk as in the race of creatures who took centre stage in the middle trilogy of this series.
I've watched one episode only of Capaldi's Doctor. 'The Doctor Falls' would be that episode.
Fair enough. If you prefer thinking it was down to the influence of the Meddling Monk though, feel free to do so. ;)
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 03 July, 2017, 11:17:56 PM
I think we've discovered ABCWarBigot's true identity. (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/07/03/lord-tebbit-its-perfectly-sensible-to-think-gay-acts-are-sinful/?utm_source=PNFB&utm_content=ND)
See this is the problem with you people who are so quick to call people bigots and homophobes. You tar everyone with the same brush. I've never said I dpn't like gay people, that I don't believe in gay marriage or I don't think gay people should be in films and tv. I've also never said I don't think there should be a gay character or two in Dr Who. All I've said is that I don't want to see the Doctor involved and I think this Timelord gender change stuff is a load of bollocks plus this season has had probably more LGBT bits in it than even in the days of Russell T. Davies and it feels forced. It feels to me like there's an even more obvious agenda than before. And before any of you bring up that tired old "did the show used to have a straight agenda then". No it didn't. There was no straight agenda.
The shows only agenda used to be about telling stories.
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 02 July, 2017, 10:08:18 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 02 July, 2017, 09:51:55 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 02 July, 2017, 09:31:04 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 02 July, 2017, 09:11:26 PM
As well as being even more of a blatant LGBT advert than last weeks
Or, possibly, this stuff is just normal and TV entertainment should reflect that, and the real problem only exists in your nasty, bigoted little mind?
Being LGBT is normal yes. Using a tv show like Dr Who as a blatant advert for the LGBT lobby isn't. And that was blatant.
You must be pleased they've moved on from when they were shoving Clara's Hetrosexuality down our throats through her relationship with Danny Pink, particularly as that came hot on the heels of Amy and Rory's rampant Hetrosexuality...not to mention the fact that all three characters shoved their cis-gender identities in our faces every second they were on screen.
Utter filth.
Why...when I was young we were mere amoeba, without the need for any of this modern nonsense.
There's been too much straight relationship crap in Nu Who also. That stuff was hardly ever in the classic series and it was all the fuckin better for it too.
The sea was warmer when I was a lad...
QuoteSee this is the problem with you people
"You people"?
You're right, people complaining about bigotry are the real bigots for not accepting other,more bigoted, points of view.
It's clear that in your frequent complaints about the "gay agenda" and the show being an "LGBT advert" what you were actually unhappy about is the focus on any relationship and mention of any gender. That's normal.
QuoteI've also never said I don't think there should be a gay character or two in Dr Who.
I don't think that's true...
Quoteall this LGBT stuff is being put in the show as they know loads of kids watch it. So it is a form of brainwashing. Again no problem with a character here and there but it's fairly obvious the show is being used by some people at the BBC for their own political reasons.
Ok I was wrong
Quote from: Richard on 04 July, 2017, 09:29:55 AM
Quote.... the show is being used by some people at the BBC for their own political reasons.
Political bias in the BBC? Shocking revelation.
Sexual. 👏🏻 Equality. 👏🏻 Isn't. 👏🏻 Political.👏🏻
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 04 July, 2017, 12:15:55 PM
Sexual. 👏🏻 Equality. 👏🏻 Isn't. 👏🏻 Political.👏🏻
Yes it is.
I think its great that programs like Doctor Who teach young people to be more understanding/accepting of LGBT people and other minorities. But lets not pretend that LGBT Equality isn't a political debate between two sides. Just because you're right, doesn't mean you're not arguing.
I would say one thing that is overlooked is how sensitive the handling of Missy has been. I really noticed how the Doctor never misgenders her i.e. by calling her The Master or a He. It's really well done.
Honestly, as a flaming Bi AF dude it really isn't a political matter, its no more so than heterosexual relations. What it is is something that transendes politics and media and culture as just pure love between folk. Politics as far as the movement is concerned is more constructed notions like marriage, addoption and the right NOT to be fucking harrased in the street daily. THAT is political.
So yes, back to it. Bill was great theoughout, more gay characters please.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 04 July, 2017, 03:15:06 PM
Honestly, as a flaming Bi AF dude it really isn't a political matter, its no more so than heterosexual relations. What it is is something that transendes politics and media and culture as just pure love between folk. Politics as far as the movement is concerned is more constructed notions like marriage, addoption and the right NOT to be fucking harrased in the street daily. THAT is political.
So yes, back to it. Bill was great theoughout, more gay characters please.
I wouldn't like to see a situation where characters are created on a 'quota' basis. Calling for more 'gay characters' seems like a mistake to me. Let's just call for more great characters, great writers and great show runners and hope that whatever they come up with finds an appreciative audience.
We should have faith that the programme makers will explore diversity in their characters as a facility of the drama, not just to appease some perceived need for a certain number of boxes ticked according to X,Y or Z 'minority'.
Something I find quite interesting is that 30 years ago there may well have been claims that a black or mixed race companion was somehow pushing a certain agenda. Thankfully we seem to be over that.
55 years of production and only, what, 3 or 4 openly LGBT+ characters? Asking for more isn't filling a quota with those numbers.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 04 July, 2017, 03:51:57 PM
55 years of production and only, what, 3 or 4 openly LGBT+ characters? Asking for more isn't filling a quota with those numbers.
But times change and I think it's fair to assume that the show will continue on its current trajectory of increased diversity quite naturally.
Speaking as a comic creator who tends, whenever it's possible to diversify up my cast (I have limited powers in this regard being often just the artist) I can explain my thinking:
I have an agenda. That agenda though isn't "Let's make readers gay! bisexual! transgender! black! white!" it's this:
my kids grew up in a more diverse environment than me - they have more POC friends that I've ever known in my life, they have openly gay relatives (one of whom is due to get married soon) where if there were members of my family that were gay when I grew up, they were probably petrified to reveal themselves.
If I don't make an effort to include different people from different backgrounds then my cast will be ENTIRELY made up with the sort of easy to reach faces that I usually draw - ie, white blokes with broken noses.
While the vast majority of comic creators are white middle aged men, there will be a need to reach beyond their own experience growing up in order to create a cast more representative of the real world as it exists now.
When I see a show without a diverse cast I think "this must look really odd to my kids" (and, being a human with a certain amount of empathy "this must be really despairing to not see anything on tv that represents you just because of your sexuality/race/gender")
To sum up: my agenda. Make something that won't look like a weird bit of fossilised culture and that can feel inclusive and positive for as many people as possible, because the one thing we should all share is empathy.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 04 July, 2017, 03:15:06 PM
Honestly, as a flaming Bi AF dude it really isn't a political matter, its no more so than heterosexual relations. What it is is something that transendes politics and media and culture as just pure love between folk. Politics as far as the movement is concerned is more constructed notions like marriage, addoption and the right NOT to be fucking harrased in the street daily. THAT is political.
So yes, back to it. Bill was great theoughout, more gay characters please.
Your second and third sentences contradict the first. It would be nice if LGBT relations weren't political but historic oppression and enduring discrimination means they are. Matthew Yglesias of Vox had a nice line when he said that for the liberal left to pretend that it wasn't waging a (successful) culture war against social conservatism is gaslighting those that disagree with it.
Quote from: pauljholden on 04 July, 2017, 04:19:04 PM
Speaking as a comic creator who tends, whenever it's possible to diversify up my cast (I have limited powers in this regard being often just the artist) I can explain my thinking:
I have an agenda. That agenda though isn't "Let's make readers gay! bisexual! transgender! black! white!" it's this:
my kids grew up in a more diverse environment than me - they have more POC friends that I've ever known in my life, they have openly gay relatives (one of whom is due to get married soon) where if there were members of my family that were gay when I grew up, they were probably petrified to reveal themselves.
If I don't make an effort to include different people from different backgrounds then my cast will be ENTIRELY made up with the sort of easy to reach faces that I usually draw - ie, white blokes with broken noses.
While the vast majority of comic creators are white middle aged men, there will be a need to reach beyond their own experience growing up in order to create a cast more representative of the real world as it exists now.
When I see a show without a diverse cast I think "this must look really odd to my kids" (and, being a human with a certain amount of empathy "this must be really despairing to not see anything on tv that represents you just because of your sexuality/race/gender")
To sum up: my agenda. Make something that won't look like a weird bit of fossilised culture and that can feel inclusive and positive for as many people as possible, because the one thing we should all share is empathy.
This is a great point, brilliantly made.
And the thing is, the kids really do care.
I remember loads of crappy shows that I clung to as a kid because it featured LGB characters who I could reflect with. I see my Black stepson gravitate to shows that feature Black characters because they look like him.
It's easy to adopt a "great characters are greater characters" if you don't belong to a minority and don't have to deal with invisibility.
Quote from: Will Cooling on 04 July, 2017, 04:24:54 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 04 July, 2017, 03:15:06 PM
Honestly, as a flaming Bi AF dude it really isn't a political matter, its no more so than heterosexual relations. What it is is something that transendes politics and media and culture as just pure love between folk. Politics as far as the movement is concerned is more constructed notions like marriage, addoption and the right NOT to be fucking harrased in the street daily. THAT is political.
So yes, back to it. Bill was great theoughout, more gay characters please.
Your second and third sentences contradict the first. It would be nice if LGBT relations weren't political but historic oppression and enduring discrimination means they are. Matthew Yglesias of Vox had a nice line when he said that for the liberal left to pretend that it wasn't waging a (successful) culture war against social conservatism is gaslighting those that disagree with it.
Being LGBTQ+, not political.
Combatting systemic LGBTQ+ oppression, political.
A literal quota is probably not the way to go, but then blokes tend to write/draw/cast an awful lot of blokes. We see this a lot in film, where men vastly outnumber women across all roles and even in things like crowd scenes. And we see the same in comics. (Count how many female judges there are in an average Dredd that has a number of judges depicted.) And that's gender alone before you get into the thorny issues of race and sexuality.
As for Doctor Who: a very good season, I thought, bar a couple of wobbles. The finale, as ever, felt rushed and could have done with more room and better script editing. A pity if that's Missy's end. And boo hiss if that's the last of my favourite companion from the new run (something I never thought I'd have said after watching the first trailers.)
Problem I have with New Who is that most of the time since Tennant left it seems to be a load of convoluted rubbish.
I find it boring a lot of the time. I never imagined writing these words about Dr Who, being such a mega fan of the 'classic' series and the Ecclestone and Tennant eras. I also absolutely loved Torchwood.
I just really feel Capaldi could have been one of the best Doctors if he had been given better stories.
Who has become like a Soap to me. Fed up of these companions he has since Amy and Rory were introduced. Give me Rose or Martha any day.
That being said i dont mind Bill myself or Lucas character
Quote from: Michael Knight on 04 July, 2017, 11:56:10 PM
Problem I have with New Who is that most of the time since Tennant left it seems to be a load of convoluted rubbish.
I find it boring a lot of the time. I never imagined writing these words about Dr Who, being such a mega fan of the 'classic' series and the Ecclestone and Tennant eras. I also absolutely loved Torchwood.
I just really feel Capaldi could have been one of the best Doctors if he had been given better stories.
Who has become like a Soap to me. Fed up of these companions he has since Amy and Rory were introduced. Give me Rose or Martha any day.
That being said i dont mind Bill myself or Lucas character
What you're basically saying is that you liked RTD's reign and you didn't like Moffat's. The good news is that you have one more episode to get through and then the Torchwood showrunner takes over.
Personally, I thought Moffat has been a very mild improvement over his predecessor, but a massive disappointment after the classic scripts he contributed whilst RTD was in charge. I didn't much like Torchwood, but am willing to giver Chibnall the benefit of the doubt, for now. Especially if he casts [spoiler]Paterson Joseph[/spoiler] as the Doctor.
The previous couple of seasons were disappointing and Capaldi was wasted on some terrible episodes, but this year's run has been brilliant. It's been the first time I've thought about buying the DVD of a series since early Tennant. I'm glad, because Capaldi deserves to be remembered fondly, and now it looks as though he will be.
Quote from: Richard on 05 July, 2017, 05:32:29 PM
The previous couple of seasons were disappointing and Capaldi was wasted on some terrible episodes, but this year's run has been brilliant. It's been the first time I've thought about buying the DVD of a series since early Tennant. I'm glad, because Capaldi deserves to be remembered fondly, and now it looks as though he will be.
I actually think this series has been the best since the shows return in 2005. I'm tempted by the DVD this time around too.
Apart from a story here and there like Blink I don't think Nu Who's been very good since it returned in 2005 full stop. A lot of the stuff in the RTD era was abysmal (Voyage of the Damned, Aliens of London etc were utter shite) and can't say I'm impressed by much stuff in the Moffat era either.
To me the best years of the show is Hartnell to the end of Tom Bakers reign.
Yet you keep watching...
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 06 July, 2017, 06:17:38 AM
Yet you keep watching...
Gotta keep an eye on those gays. You never know what they'll get up to...
"Oh, this Nu Who thing is abysmal! Utter shite! I'm not impressed at all"
/keeps watching for another ten years
Did I say it was all bad? I said there's something good here and there (like the Ice Warriors story recently) but on the whole I don't think it's ever lived up to what it could have been. Not even close.
And just because somebody watches something doesn't mean they like everything about it. Dr Who used to be my favourite show so obviously I'm going to watch it (as long as it doesn't get too bad)
That said it looks like it is going to get bad as it looks like we're getting a female Doctor next. I'll watch one or two episodes out of curiosity and then no more.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 06 July, 2017, 06:36:24 AM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 06 July, 2017, 06:17:38 AM
Yet you keep watching...
Gotta keep an eye on those gays. You never know what they'll get up to...
Typical stupid knee jerk answer.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 07:22:56 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 06 July, 2017, 06:36:24 AM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 06 July, 2017, 06:17:38 AM
Yet you keep watching...
Gotta keep an eye on those gays. You never know what they'll get up to...
Typical stupid knee jerk answer.
You are Steve Bannon, I claim my reward.
Rewatched the finale last night, like it a great deal indeed! The Pilot feels like a satisfying way to tie up the series without feeling too deus ex machina, and a resoundungly satisfying if sad conclusion to Bills arc. I'll miss Pearl greatly, she's been superb.
I refuse to watch the next season unless the Doctor regenerates into a black Jewish lesbian socialist.
Well...maybe just a couple.
They do have an 'out' for Bill, in that her alien girlfriend can convert her back to human if she asks (although the suggestion was she'd then be left alone on Earth), but it seems Chris Chibnall wants a clean slate.
the master to missy, so prepared for olivia coleman to be the next doctor
As long as the character is; mysterious, clever and alien - i don't mind about the sexual orientation [name of my sex-tape?!]
Quote from: zombemybabynow on 06 July, 2017, 09:49:18 AM
the master to missy, so prepared for olivia coleman to be the next doctor
As long as the character is; mysterious, clever and alien - i don't mind about the sexual orientation [name of my sex-tape?!]
That'll be the final nail in the coffin for me and I suspect many others. Load of rubbish!
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 09:12:06 PM
Quote from: zombemybabynow on 06 July, 2017, 09:49:18 AM
the master to missy, so prepared for olivia coleman to be the next doctor
As long as the character is; mysterious, clever and alien - i don't mind about the sexual orientation [name of my sex-tape?!]
That'll be the final nail in the coffin for me and I suspect many others. Load of rubbish!
So it's not all about entertaining stories well told then? You'll ditch the show if it's a female Doctor regardless of quality? .
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 09:12:06 PM
Quote from: zombemybabynow on 06 July, 2017, 09:49:18 AM
the master to missy, so prepared for olivia coleman to be the next doctor
As long as the character is; mysterious, clever and alien - i don't mind about the sexual orientation [name of my sex-tape?!]
That'll be the final nail in the coffin for me and I suspect many others. Load of rubbish!
Hmm...just trying to remember when was the last time the Doctor saved the day through use of his penis.
Well he does wave that sonic screwdriver around a fair bit.
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 09:45:03 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 09:12:06 PM
Quote from: zombemybabynow on 06 July, 2017, 09:49:18 AM
the master to missy, so prepared for olivia coleman to be the next doctor
As long as the character is; mysterious, clever and alien - i don't mind about the sexual orientation [name of my sex-tape?!]
That'll be the final nail in the coffin for me and I suspect many others. Load of rubbish!
Hmm...just trying to remember when was the last time the Doctor saved the day through use of his penis.
So is he going to save the universe with his tits now?
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 10:16:12 PM
So is he going to save the universe with his tits now?
Perhaps unsurprisingly, reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your greatest strength.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 10:16:12 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 09:45:03 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 09:12:06 PM
Quote from: zombemybabynow on 06 July, 2017, 09:49:18 AM
the master to missy, so prepared for olivia coleman to be the next doctor
As long as the character is; mysterious, clever and alien - i don't mind about the sexual orientation [name of my sex-tape?!]
That'll be the final nail in the coffin for me and I suspect many others. Load of rubbish!
Hmm...just trying to remember when was the last time the Doctor saved the day through use of his penis.
So is he going to save the universe with his tits now?
That may just happen to be my point.
Well it doesn't matter about his/her private parts. Turning the Doctor female will turn the show into a complete fucking joke full stop.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 10:29:36 PM
Well it doesn't matter about his/her private parts. Turning the Doctor female will turn the show into a complete fucking joke full stop.
Based on what...women being inferior to men?
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 10:40:01 PM
Based on what...women being inferior to men?
Some of them sleep with men, you know, like those gays do. Clearly some kind of agenda.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 06 July, 2017, 11:38:55 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 10:40:01 PM
Based on what...women being inferior to men?
Some of them sleep with men, you know, like those gays do. Clearly some kind of agenda.
I believe some of them are even gay themselves now. Probably through watching Doctor Who. :P
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 10:40:01 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 10:29:36 PM
Well it doesn't matter about his/her private parts. Turning the Doctor female will turn the show into a complete fucking joke full stop.
Based on what...women being inferior to men?
Based on the fact that the Doctor's always been a man and that I don't want to see a female Doctor and probably the same with many other people too.
I didn't want a female doctor either, until today. But now I want it to happen just because it will annoy ABCsnoreBOT so much.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 11:50:59 PM
Based on the fact that the Doctor's always been a man
Once upon a time, judges were always men, MPs were always men, firefighters and the police were always men... this is a very long list. Shall I go on, or do you want to make a point that doesn't make you sound like an idiot?
Of course, one upon a time the Doctor had always been William Hartnell. He changed, you didn't. :P
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 07 July, 2017, 12:19:34 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 11:50:59 PM
Based on the fact that the Doctor's always been a man
Once upon a time, judges were always men, MPs were always men, firefighters and the police were always men... this is a very long list. Shall I go on, or do you want to make a point that doesn't make you sound like an idiot?
So what are you trying to say? Are you saying that if someone doesn't want a female Doctor that makes them an idiot and a sexist?
Quote from: Richard on 07 July, 2017, 12:11:16 AM
I didn't want a female doctor either, until today. But now I want it to happen just because it will annoy ABCsnoreBOT so much.
I bet you've always wanted a female Doctor.
I don't think a Doctor with a vagina would be that big of a deal.
A Doctor with good scripts and plots that made sense, that would be revolutionary
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 01:28:04 AM
So what are you trying to say? Are you saying that if someone doesn't want a female Doctor that makes them an idiot and a sexist?
No. I'm trying to say that someone who says a role can only be fulfilled by a man because it has previously only been fulfilled by men, even though there is no reason why a woman couldn't do it, is an idiot and a sexist. If you disagree that the described position is sexist, you need a better dictionary.
What were you trying to say?
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 11:50:59 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 10:40:01 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 10:29:36 PM
Well it doesn't matter about his/her private parts. Turning the Doctor female will turn the show into a complete fucking joke full stop.
Based on what...women being inferior to men?
Based on the fact that the Doctor's always been a man and that I don't want to see a female Doctor and probably the same with many other people too.
The Master had always been a man too and in my opinion we just had the best incarnation of The Master ever. Just happened to be a woman. And she was brilliant.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 11:50:59 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 10:40:01 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 10:29:36 PM
Well it doesn't matter about his/her private parts. Turning the Doctor female will turn the show into a complete fucking joke full stop.
Based on what...women being inferior to men?
Based on the fact that the Doctor's always been a man and that I don't want to see a female Doctor and probably the same with many other people too.
Right you don't want to see a female Doctor, & a lot of other people probably don't to. But you still haven't answered the question of how, in real terms, it will turn the show into a joke?
Did Missy turn the show into a joke? The Master has always been a man.
Times change, get with it daddio! Stop being an L7!
It's like those Bugs Bunny cartoons where everyone piles on top of the Rabbit! ABCwarBOT feels a Lady Time Lord would be off-putting for a lot of viewers and you could argue that he has a point. Don't we tend to associate men with Authority more than women? That might sound awful to modern ears who believe in equality, but the politicians we elect overwhelmingly are men despite protest from the woman and justice advocates for 50% male/female candidates. I, think Doctor Who has run out of steam with audiences, over-familiarity has done for it and there's little anyone can do to resurrect the programme from lower ratings. A female Doctor will just be a novel distraction, and we've already had a grim lesson from the world of Cinema that no amount of 'star power' can save a poor story. Universal Studios tried to relaunch it's Monster Franchise with a major star in Tom Cruise, but even his status could do little to keep The Mummy from ironically dying at the box office.
The long ABCWarBot speaks the more i'm convinced he's a errant Daily Mail comment that developed rudimentary intelligence and went walk abouts.
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 07 July, 2017, 09:41:42 AM
It's like those Bugs Bunny cartoons where everyone piles on top of the Rabbit! ABCwarBOT feels a Lady Time Lord would be off-putting for a lot of viewers and you could argue that he has a point. Don't we tend to associate men with Authority more than women? That might sound awful to modern ears who believe in equality, but the politicians we elect overwhelmingly are men despite protest from the woman and justice advocates for 50% male/female candidates. I, think Doctor Who has run out of steam with audiences, over-familiarity has done for it and there's little anyone can do to resurrect the programme from lower ratings. A female Doctor will just be a novel distraction, and we've already had a grim lesson from the world of Cinema that no amount of 'star power' can save a turkey. Universal Studios tried to relaunch it's Monster Franchise with a major star in Tom Cruise, but even his status could do little to keep The Mummy from ironically dying at the box office.
I don't associate men with authority more than women. & even if a lot of people do shall the world of fiction sit back & do nothing to combat that? Also all this talk about ratings completely ignores the international fanbase of the show which has never been higher! Comparisions with The Mummy are therefore redundant.
I think the opposite about the authority point, at least as far as Olivia Colman is concerned. She looks like a teacher or someone's mum, and if I was still at school I don't think I'd want to watch Dr Who with her in the lead.
That doesn't mean no woman could do it though. Missy was the best Master.
I suspect that a significant part of the show's core demographic - young boys - would probably switch off if the Doctor was female. Rightly or wrongly, I think they would struggle with the idea of a woman in the role (much as younger audiences in general undoubtedly struggled with an older Doctor.)
Quote from: Greg M. on 07 July, 2017, 09:56:18 AM
I suspect that a significant part of the show's core demographic - young boys - would probably switch off if the Doctor was female. Rightly or wrongly, I think they would struggle with the idea of a woman in the role (much as younger audiences in general undoubtedly struggled with an older Doctor.)
Possibly, although I would like to see real evidence for that, for example did Missy impact negatively on the show. But even if that were the case why not give it a go? The show has been going for over 50 years & I for one find it quite ludicrious that we are still having white men as the lead character.
I am not accusing you of this but I do think that some people use the argument that young boys (even though the fanbase has quite obviously grown beyond that as evidenced at conventions - as an aside an interesting comparision with 2000AD whose fanbase still seems to consist of middle aged white men) would be turned off by it as an excuse to cover their blatent sexism.
Quote from: JLC on 07 July, 2017, 10:03:18 AM
Possibly, although I would like to see real evidence for that, for example did Missy impact negatively on the show.
Can't give you real evidence, I'm afraid. I've been a teacher for a long time now and as such I feel I have a pretty good handle on the way young lads think - but hey, I could be wrong. In regards to Missy, I'd say you have more flexibility with supporting characters in a way that you don't with the lead.
Quote from: JLC on 07 July, 2017, 10:03:18 AM
The show has been going for over 50 years & I for one find it quite ludicrious that we are still having white men as the lead character.
Even if it was only for a single season, I'd pay cold, hard cash to see Idris Elba or Chiwetel Ejiofor take a crack at it...
Quote from: Greg M. on 07 July, 2017, 10:10:56 AM
Quote from: JLC on 07 July, 2017, 10:03:18 AM
Possibly, although I would like to see real evidence for that, for example did Missy impact negatively on the show.
Can't give you real evidence, I'm afraid. I've been a teacher for a long time now and as such I feel I have a pretty good handle on the way young lads think - but hey, I could be wrong. In regards to Missy, I'd say you have more flexibility with supporting characters in a way that you don't with the lead.
Maybe, but I do think the fanbase is a lot more diverse than it was back in the old days.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 07 July, 2017, 10:13:23 AM
Quote from: JLC on 07 July, 2017, 10:03:18 AM
The show has been going for over 50 years & I for one find it quite ludicrious that we are still having white men as the lead character.
Even if it was only for a single season, I'd pay cold, hard cash to see Idris Elba or Ortake a crack at it...
I would love Adrian Lester in the role, which I think was rumoured some time ago.
Or, imagine a female Doctor going up against Chiwetel Ejiofor as The Master!
Quote from: JLC on 07 July, 2017, 10:22:19 AMMaybe, but I do think the fanbase is a lot more diverse than it was back in the old days.
Also, seeing all those little girls dressing up as Ghostbusters now makes me wish more properties would take a risk with female casting. The Doctor, in particular, could do this with relative ease. That said, I'm not sure
who I'd like in the role. (Coleman doesn't sit right with me, and nor do many of the other often-mooted women for the role. It won't be Phoebe Waller-Bridge, but that could have been interesting casting.
As for non-white people, hasn't Chiwetel Ejiofor long been rumoured as the cast black man who turned down the role? A younger Paterson Joseph would have been pretty great to my mind. Possibly even Danny John-Jules.
My guess: it's going to be a white bloke in his 30s or early 40s. (Frontrunner Kris Marshall, though, seems oddly old at 44, if they're reeling from Capaldi looking a bit granddad.)
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 07 July, 2017, 10:13:23 AM
Even if it was only for a single season, I'd pay cold, hard cash to see Idris Elba or Chiwetel Ejiofor take a crack at it...
Excellent choices, I'd be delighted with either.
Personally, I think Olivia Colman would be a disaster, but then I thought Christopher Eccleston was a disaster, and they strike me as being a similar type of actor.
If we're going to go female Doctor we have to go all in or else the idea will be discredited forever. So, we ring up Tilda Swinton's agent, find out how much money she wants, and just pay it.
I like Swinton, but at 56, isn't that just swapping one oldish person for another? I can't see that helping in terms of merch.
Oh pish posh! 56 is nothing these days (sure some seasoned borders will disagree)...
Personally i thought Missy was much better Master than John Simm.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 07 July, 2017, 02:40:20 PM
Oh pish posh! 56 is nothing these days (sure some seasoned borders will disagree)...
I'd be happy with 56-year-old Swinton in the role, but if the general thinking is Capaldi – who was younger than that when he took on the role – is too old, casting someone even older would be an odd decision.
Quote from: JLC on 07 July, 2017, 09:48:02 AM
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 07 July, 2017, 09:41:42 AM
It's like those Bugs Bunny cartoons where everyone piles on top of the Rabbit! ABCwarBOT feels a Lady Time Lord would be off-putting for a lot of viewers and you could argue that he has a point. Don't we tend to associate men with Authority more than women? That might sound awful to modern ears who believe in equality, but the politicians we elect overwhelmingly are men despite protest from the woman and justice advocates for 50% male/female candidates. I, think Doctor Who has run out of steam with audiences, over-familiarity has done for it and there's little anyone can do to resurrect the programme from lower ratings. A female Doctor will just be a novel distraction, and we've already had a grim lesson from the world of Cinema that no amount of 'star power' can save a turkey. Universal Studios tried to relaunch it's Monster Franchise with a major star in Tom Cruise, but even his status could do little to keep The Mummy from ironically dying at the box office.
I don't associate men with authority more than women.
Nope, me neither. My last four bosses were women and were all excellent at their jobs.
And as for the home life...Well, I know who's in charge around here and it ain't me.
I'd much rather see Coleman in the role than Swinton.
And I would prefer them both to Kris Marshall.
My pick for a female Doctor would be Vicky McClure because she's fucking brilliant in everything.
I've always hankered after a punk Doctor (the Doctor should be anti-establishment and nothing says that more than a safety pin through the nose and a home made t-shirt). She's already pulled off Skinhead and could easily do punk.
Quote from: JamesC on 07 July, 2017, 04:14:52 PM
My pick for a female Doctor would be Vicky McClure because she's fucking brilliant in everything.
I've always hankered after a punk Doctor (the Doctor should be anti-establishment and nothing says that more than a safety pin through the nose and a home made t-shirt). She's already pulled off Skinhead and could easily do punk.
I've never, not even for a second, thought about her and now I think you came up with the best idea ever.
Nothing says "anti-establishment" more than being Lord President of Gallifrey. Twice.
Quote from: Richard on 07 July, 2017, 06:57:11 PM
Nothing says "anti-establishment" more than being Lord President of Gallifrey. Twice.
Not in the Vicky McClure punk persona mate!
Quote from: JLC on 07 July, 2017, 09:39:43 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 11:50:59 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 10:40:01 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 10:29:36 PM
Well it doesn't matter about his/her private parts. Turning the Doctor female will turn the show into a complete fucking joke full stop.
Based on what...women being inferior to men?
Based on the fact that the Doctor's always been a man and that I don't want to see a female Doctor and probably the same with many other people too.
Right you don't want to see a female Doctor, & a lot of other people probably don't to. But you still haven't answered the question of how, in real terms, it will turn the show into a joke?
Did Missy turn the show into a joke? The Master has always been a man.
Times change, get with it daddio! Stop being an L7!
Yes I do think Missys turned the show into a joke. Not only is this gender change Timelord stupid and pointless but she was like Mary Poppins on speed.
Quote from: Greg M. on 07 July, 2017, 09:56:18 AM
I suspect that a significant part of the show's core demographic - young boys - would probably switch off if the Doctor was female. Rightly or wrongly, I think they would struggle with the idea of a woman in the role (much as younger audiences in general undoubtedly struggled with an older Doctor.)
And not only that but I bet the main core of the audience is like what it's always been ----
overwhelmingly male. Young boys, teenage boys and older men.
Now some of them might be ok with a female Doctor but I bet most won't like it at all.
I'm not sure whether audieces struggled with an older Doctor though. Up until Peter Davidson the Doctorwas always an older male especially the first original Doctor and at least Capaldi's been impressive.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: JLC on 07 July, 2017, 09:39:43 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 11:50:59 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 10:40:01 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 10:29:36 PM
Well it doesn't matter about his/her private parts. Turning the Doctor female will turn the show into a complete fucking joke full stop.
Based on what...women being inferior to men?
Based on the fact that the Doctor's always been a man and that I don't want to see a female Doctor and probably the same with many other people too.
Right you don't want to see a female Doctor, & a lot of other people probably don't to. But you still haven't answered the question of how, in real terms, it will turn the show into a joke?
Did Missy turn the show into a joke? The Master has always been a man.
Times change, get with it daddio! Stop being an L7!
Yes I do think Missys turned the show into a joke. Not only is this gender change Timelord stupid and pointless but she was like Mary Poppins on speed.
Thanks...I'll just go and tell all my transgender friends that they're stupid and pointless people.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 07 July, 2017, 09:47:21 AM
The long ABCWarBot speaks the more i'm convinced he's a errant Daily Mail comment that developed rudimentary intelligence and went walk abouts.
LOL! I was just waiting for the usual "Daily Mail" reader thing. Don't tell me I'm a Tory who hates them bloody foreigners and welfare claimants too?
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: JLC on 07 July, 2017, 09:39:43 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 11:50:59 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 10:40:01 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 10:29:36 PM
Well it doesn't matter about his/her private parts. Turning the Doctor female will turn the show into a complete fucking joke full stop.
Based on what...women being inferior to men?
Based on the fact that the Doctor's always been a man and that I don't want to see a female Doctor and probably the same with many other people too.
Right you don't want to see a female Doctor, & a lot of other people probably don't to. But you still haven't answered the question of how, in real terms, it will turn the show into a joke?
Did Missy turn the show into a joke? The Master has always been a man.
Times change, get with it daddio! Stop being an L7!
Yes I do think Missys turned the show into a joke. Not only is this gender change Timelord stupid and pointless but she was like Mary Poppins on speed.
Or...like Norman Wisdom on acid http://youtu.be/tF2fN4MmMAY
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 07 July, 2017, 08:54:36 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: JLC on 07 July, 2017, 09:39:43 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 11:50:59 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 10:40:01 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 10:29:36 PM
Well it doesn't matter about his/her private parts. Turning the Doctor female will turn the show into a complete fucking joke full stop.
Based on what...women being inferior to men?
Based on the fact that the Doctor's always been a man and that I don't want to see a female Doctor and probably the same with many other people too.
Right you don't want to see a female Doctor, & a lot of other people probably don't to. But you still haven't answered the question of how, in real terms, it will turn the show into a joke?
Did Missy turn the show into a joke? The Master has always been a man.
Times change, get with it daddio! Stop being an L7!
Yes I do think Missys turned the show into a joke. Not only is this gender change Timelord stupid and pointless but she was like Mary Poppins on speed.
Thanks...I'll just go and tell all my transgender friends that they're stupid and pointless people.
I see. So just because I think that all this Timelord gender change stuff in the show is stupid and pointless that means I think transgender people are stupid and pointless?
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 08:52:28 PM
I'm not sure whether audieces struggled with an older Doctor though.
I'm pretty sure younger audiences, whose primary experience of the series was NuWho, had difficulty with Capaldi. Again, I can only speak based on my own observations, but in terms of the many young people I've worked with, interest in Doctor Who seemed to drop off a cliff as soon as Capaldi took the role on.
Quote from: JamesC on 07 July, 2017, 08:57:25 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: JLC on 07 July, 2017, 09:39:43 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 11:50:59 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 10:40:01 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 10:29:36 PM
Well it doesn't matter about his/her private parts. Turning the Doctor female will turn the show into a complete fucking joke full stop.
Based on what...women being inferior to men?
Based on the fact that the Doctor's always been a man and that I don't want to see a female Doctor and probably the same with many other people too.
Right you don't want to see a female Doctor, & a lot of other people probably don't to. But you still haven't answered the question of how, in real terms, it will turn the show into a joke?
Did Missy turn the show into a joke? The Master has always been a man.
Times change, get with it daddio! Stop being an L7!
Yes I do think Missys turned the show into a joke. Not only is this gender change Timelord stupid and pointless but she was like Mary Poppins on speed.
Or...like Norman Wisdom on acid http://youtu.be/tF2fN4MmMAY
LOL! :lol: Yes. I haven't seen those 2 on tv for ages.
Quote from: Greg M. on 07 July, 2017, 09:02:58 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 08:52:28 PM
I'm not sure whether audieces struggled with an older Doctor though.
I'm pretty sure younger audiences, whose primary experience of the series was NuWho, had difficulty with Capaldi. Again, I can only speak based on my own observations, but in terms of the many young people I've worked with, interest in Doctor Who seemed to drop off a cliff as soon as Capaldi took the role on.
Could well be with some people but I'd be surprised on the whole as even though we've had younger Doctors (too young in Matt Smiths case for me) the overall image of the Doctor is this slightly eccentric male professor and many professors are obviously older. When I was a kid I actually wanted the Doctor to be much older than me. I think there's some people around though who are blaming Capaldi as being a problem when it's not him who's the problem. Capaldi to me is one of the best things about Nu Who. And none of the other Nu Who Doctors have had that much needed gravitas that he has.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 09:14:17 PM
Could well be with some people but I'd be surprised on the whole as even though we've had younger Doctors (too young in Matt Smiths case for me) the overall image of the Doctor is this slightly eccentric male professor and many professors are obviously older.
Yes, but young folk who haven't seen old Who have a different understanding of the Doctor - for them he's a young, quirky, good-looking, energetic man who straddles the line between cool and geeky, in the vein of Tennant and Smith. And whilst Capaldi fits in well with
our view of the Doctor, he doesn't fit in with theirs.
Quote from: Greg M. on 07 July, 2017, 09:24:41 PM
And whilst Capaldi fits in well with our view of the Doctor, he doesn't fit in with theirs.
Quite. And if the show is going to have a future, it needs to be for them, not us. Sure, throw us oldies a knowing reference or an Easter egg here and there, but Moffat's miring of the show in continuity stuff that a small number of middle-aged nerds care about has not been to its benefit.
Cate Blanchett.
Come on, what more would you want?!
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 08:58:27 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 07 July, 2017, 08:54:36 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: JLC on 07 July, 2017, 09:39:43 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 11:50:59 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 10:40:01 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 10:29:36 PM
Well it doesn't matter about his/her private parts. Turning the Doctor female will turn the show into a complete fucking joke full stop.
Based on what...women being inferior to men?
Based on the fact that the Doctor's always been a man and that I don't want to see a female Doctor and probably the same with many other people too.
Right you don't want to see a female Doctor, & a lot of other people probably don't to. But you still haven't answered the question of how, in real terms, it will turn the show into a joke?
Did Missy turn the show into a joke? The Master has always been a man.
Times change, get with it daddio! Stop being an L7!
Yes I do think Missys turned the show into a joke. Not only is this gender change Timelord stupid and pointless but she was like Mary Poppins on speed.
Thanks...I'll just go and tell all my transgender friends that they're stupid and pointless people.
I see. So just because I think that all this Timelord gender change stuff in the show is stupid and pointless that means I think transgender people are stupid and pointless?
That's certainly how you've come across in this thread...hence why people have been making the Daily Mail comments.
Wot Jim and Greg said.
It's been nigh on 30 years since the Doc was an older bloke. 10 year olds don't know him as an older lead and only the middle aged viewers have enjoyed Capaldi.
TBH if you aren't enjoying it anymore just stop watching. Or is that too sensible?
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 07 July, 2017, 10:02:45 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 08:58:27 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 07 July, 2017, 08:54:36 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: JLC on 07 July, 2017, 09:39:43 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 11:50:59 PM
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 06 July, 2017, 10:40:01 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 06 July, 2017, 10:29:36 PM
Well it doesn't matter about his/her private parts. Turning the Doctor female will turn the show into a complete fucking joke full stop.
Based on what...women being inferior to men?
Based on the fact that the Doctor's always been a man and that I don't want to see a female Doctor and probably the same with many other people too.
Right you don't want to see a female Doctor, & a lot of other people probably don't to. But you still haven't answered the question of how, in real terms, it will turn the show into a joke?
Did Missy turn the show into a joke? The Master has always been a man.
Times change, get with it daddio! Stop being an L7!
Yes I do think Missys turned the show into a joke. Not only is this gender change Timelord stupid and pointless but she was like Mary Poppins on speed.
Thanks...I'll just go and tell all my transgender friends that they're stupid and pointless people.
I see. So just because I think that all this Timelord gender change stuff in the show is stupid and pointless that means I think transgender people are stupid and pointless?
That's certainly how you've come across in this thread...hence why people have been making the Daily Mail comments.
So if someone doesn't want a female Doctor and they don't like the Timelords being able to change gender (which is a Nu Who thing) they're an idiot, a sexist and a transphobe?
Quote from: Daveycandlish on 07 July, 2017, 10:10:24 PM
Wot Jim and Greg said.
It's been nigh on 30 years since the Doc was an older bloke. 10 year olds don't know him as an older lead and only the middle aged viewers have enjoyed Capaldi.
TBH if you aren't enjoying it anymore just stop watching. Or is that too sensible?
How do you know it's only middle aged viewers who enjoyed Capaldi?
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 11:25:49 PM
How do you know it's only middle aged viewers who enjoyed Capaldi?
Viewing figures slumped and toy sales fell off a cliff. That says that kids aren't enjoying it.
Here's a leftfield suggestion. Maisie Williams, Arya Stark from off of outta Game of Thrones. A young actress playing a grumpy granny Doctor could be interesting.
Although a female Doctor would be a big lezzer after centuries of being a man. That would just turn all the female viewers into big lezzers and then I'd never get proper sex wiff gurls...
*shakes fist at clouds*
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 07 July, 2017, 11:43:26 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 07 July, 2017, 11:25:49 PM
How do you know it's only middle aged viewers who enjoyed Capaldi?
Viewing figures slumped and toy sales fell off a cliff. That says that kids aren't enjoying it.
If that's the case then how do you know that's because kids aren't enjoying it? For a start a huge chunk of the audience are older males and they probably buy just as much toys and merchandise as the kids (who are probably mainly and overwhelmingly young boys). In fact I'd argue that something like Missy's put a lot of people off the show.
I bet most males of all ages can't stand the silly Mary Poppins like character.
I doubt it.
And if Mary Poppins had murdered people then it would have been a much better film.
Quote from: Richard on 08 July, 2017, 01:00:17 AM
I doubt it.
And if Mary Poppins had murdered people then it would have been a much better film.
So you think boys and men who are probably the biggest chunk of the audience by far would not watch the show because of a good solid Doctor?
You think most of them would like a highly camp, annoying Mary Poppins lookalike?
Ya know come to think of it ---- Forget the Doctor and the monsters I can really imagine young boys in the playground pretending to be missy with her umbrella.
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 07 July, 2017, 09:41:42 AM
It's like those Bugs Bunny cartoons where everyone piles on top of the Rabbit! ABCwarBOT feels a Lady Time Lord would be off-putting for a lot of viewers and you could argue that he has a point. Don't we tend to associate men with Authority more than women? That might sound awful to modern ears who believe in equality, but the politicians we elect overwhelmingly are men despite protest from the woman and justice advocates for 50% male/female candidates.
Speak for yourself. My boss is female, her boss is female and
her boss is female.
Also - last time I looked at a ballot paper most of the names on it were male. In fact, just checked, 80% of the choices were men. As you point out, if 50% of the candidates were female maybe there would be more balance in those who actually get elected?
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 08 July, 2017, 12:45:35 AM
I bet most males of all ages can't stand the silly Mary Poppins like character.
Among my friends and family that are male and watch Doctor Who nearly all of them thought Missy was fantastic and often the highlight of the show.
QuoteI bet most males of all ages can't stand the silly Mary Poppins like character.
I'm a 37 year of old male, and I think she was the highlight of the season. I don't think I've heard anyone say anything negative about her until now.
Show of hands? Who disliked Missy?
Quote from: Modern Panther on 08 July, 2017, 10:16:15 AM
Show of hands? Who disliked Missy?
Me. I think she's absolutely awful - a relentlessly annoying character, up there with River Song in the irritating stakes. Would I have felt that way if she wasn't supposed to be the Master? Yep. Fair play to those of you who loved her though.
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 08 July, 2017, 07:46:01 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 08 July, 2017, 12:45:35 AM
I bet most males of all ages can't stand the silly Mary Poppins like character.
Among my friends and family that are male and watch Doctor Who nearly all of them thought Missy was fantastic and often the highlight of the show.
I liked her, but TBH people seem to be annoyed with Clara and I liked her as well, and River Song, and most of the female cast (I struggled with Martha Jones but ended up with some sentiment for her too).
I really didn't like Missy at all in the previous series but she was much better in this one. Same goes for John Simm.
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 08 July, 2017, 07:46:01 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 08 July, 2017, 12:45:35 AM
I bet most males of all ages can't stand the silly Mary Poppins like character.
Among my friends and family that are male and watch Doctor Who nearly all of them thought Missy was fantastic and often the highlight of the show.
Well I know one person who thinks she's 'ok' and all my other friends both male and female can't stand the character.
Quote from: JamesC on 08 July, 2017, 01:43:07 PM
I really didn't like Missy at all in the previous series but she was much better in this one. Same goes for John Simm.
She was possibly less manic in the recent series (maybe they finally realised how annoying she was) but I still can't stand the character and this Timelord gender change nonsense.
Not forgetting the downright awful regeneration where an older white dude turns into a young black female. It was so bad I found myself laughing in disbelief.
Quote from: Greg M. on 08 July, 2017, 10:36:01 AM
Quote from: Modern Panther on 08 July, 2017, 10:16:15 AM
Show of hands? Who disliked Missy?
Me. I think she's absolutely awful - a relentlessly annoying character, up there with River Song in the irritating stakes. Would I have felt that way if she wasn't supposed to be the Master? Yep. Fair play to those of you who loved her though.
I think relentlessly annoying sums her up well. Whenever I watch I'm just waiting for her to pop up like that Harry Enfield character "Only Me!". And then proceed to talk a load of manic rubbish.
We heard you the first time.
QuoteShow of hands? Who disliked Missy?
Two then, two and a half possibly. Only one of whom seems to have an issue with gender. In fact, seems absolutely focussed on the idea that the silliest thing about the time lords - a race of super intelligent time travelling aliens who can live forever and transform their DNA at will - is that they might sometimes be allowed to change race and gender. It must be silly, because it didn't happen in the old days, when life was simplier and women didn't headline TV shows and gay people appeared rarely and only really as figures of fun, and any attempt at addressing that is a gay-agenda attempt at brainwashing kids into accepting that people exist in a spectrum and that's okay.
Can I respectfully suggest that you just stop watching if the modern world disturbs you so much.
He's basically just trolling now, I feel.
Quote from: Modern Panther on 09 July, 2017, 09:07:55 AM
QuoteShow of hands? Who disliked Missy?
Two then, two and a half possibly. Only one of whom seems to have an issue with gender. In fact, seems absolutely focussed on the idea that the silliest thing about the time lords - a race of super intelligent time travelling aliens who can live forever and transform their DNA at will - is that they might sometimes be allowed to change race and gender. It must be silly, because it didn't happen in the old days, when life was simplier and women didn't headline TV shows and gay people appeared rarely and only really as figures of fun, and any attempt at addressing that is a gay-agenda attempt at brainwashing kids into accepting that people exist in a spectrum and that's okay.
Can I respectfully suggest that you just stop watching if the modern world disturbs you so much.
Well I will stop watching it if they make the Doctor female. Nobody has to justify why they don't want to see a female Doctor. I don't want to see one and that doesn't make me sexist or transgender phobe but we all know there's people who will twist things round to suit their arguments.
And the number of people who dislike missy might be outnumbered in this thread but that doesn't mean they are outside of this thread. And it was as I pointed out RTD himself who said he had a gay agenda with the show on News 24. I've alkso never said gay people shouldn't be in the show so stop twisting things round.
Quote from: GordonR on 09 July, 2017, 09:33:46 AM
He's basically just trolling now, I feel.
Just like the word homophobe trollling is often flung about by people who don't like others with different views to theirs and want to shut free speech down. My arguments have been perfectly valid.
'Inbred yokal voice'
Aahh nah! Mah freedum of speech! Dem damn dirty gays!
::)
So anyway did anyone listen to Spare Parts yet? Bloody good innit?
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 09 July, 2017, 09:40:39 PM
'Inbred yokal voice'
Aahh nah! Mah freedum of speech! Dem damn dirty gays!
::)
So anyway did anyone listen to Spare Parts yet? Bloody good innit?
Very funny. If anyone wants to see what I mean just read some of the posts on here like this. Totally intolerant to people with different views, words like homophobe flung about so much they don't have any meaning (the word originally meant fear of gay people but it's been twisted over the years to mean virtually anything) and they even make things up like "Dem damn dirty gays". Where've I spoken about gay people like that or even implied it?
Says it all really.
I just watched the last episode. I'm quite looking forward to the Christmas tale. But I fear it will go down like a lead balloon with my kids because there are two old Doctors in it.
And that is the problem with Nu Who. It's been around so long that we are falling into the same cycle of contempt (familiarity and all that). It's better than a lot of BBC sci-fi (Atlantis, anyone?) and I would like it to continue to succeed. That means a chirpy young chap in the lead role to appeal to 8 year old boys.
Bugger the 8 year old boys!
...wait, that came out wrong.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 09 July, 2017, 09:52:19 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 09 July, 2017, 09:40:39 PM
'Inbred yokal voice'
Aahh nah! Mah freedum of speech! Dem damn dirty gays!
::)
So anyway did anyone listen to Spare Parts yet? Bloody good innit?
Very funny. If anyone wants to see what I mean just read some of the posts on here like this. Totally intolerant to people with different views, words like homophobe flung about so much they don't have any meaning (the word originally meant fear of gay people but it's been twisted over the years to mean virtually anything) and they even make things up like "Dem damn dirty gays". Where've I spoken about gay people like that or even implied it?
Says it all really.
I think it may well be your stinking attitude, from your first post on this thread, that has got people's backs up.
No it's not transphobic to say you don't want a female Doctor...but when you've spent the entirety of the thread whining like a bitch then people aren't going to cut you any slack.
Quote from: Taryn Tailz on 09 July, 2017, 11:12:30 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 09 July, 2017, 09:52:19 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 09 July, 2017, 09:40:39 PM
'Inbred yokal voice'
Aahh nah! Mah freedum of speech! Dem damn dirty gays!
::)
So anyway did anyone listen to Spare Parts yet? Bloody good innit?
Very funny. If anyone wants to see what I mean just read some of the posts on here like this. Totally intolerant to people with different views, words like homophobe flung about so much they don't have any meaning (the word originally meant fear of gay people but it's been twisted over the years to mean virtually anything) and they even make things up like "Dem damn dirty gays". Where've I spoken about gay people like that or even implied it?
Says it all really.
I think it may well be your stinking attitude, from your first post on this thread, that has got people's backs up.
No it's not transphobic to say you don't want a female Doctor...but when you've spent the entirety of the thread whining like a bitch then people aren't going to cut you any slack.
So now it's my atitude? Some people might say the atitude of some other people on here stinks too. Calling people homophobes and whatever (plus doing their own fair share of "whining like bitches").
Of course I'm gonna react if people start throwing those things at me. At least you acknowledge that saying you don't want a female doctor isn't transphobic though.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 09 July, 2017, 10:39:32 PM
I just watched the last episode. I'm quite looking forward to the Christmas tale. But I fear it will go down like a lead balloon with my kids because there are two old Doctors in it.
And that is the problem with Nu Who. It's been around so long that we are falling into the same cycle of contempt (familiarity and all that). It's better than a lot of BBC sci-fi (Atlantis, anyone?) and I would like it to continue to succeed. That means a chirpy young chap in the lead role to appeal to 8 year old boys.
All those kids in the 60s and 70s must have hated those old geezers like Hartnell and Pertwee as the Doctors.
Things were different in sixties and seventies. A lot less choice in general and specifically a lot less genre tv. If you wanted to see space monsters, sixties and seventies Doctor Who was one of the few options available. Now they exist in thousands of shows and films and even adverts. So I don't think that's a valid argument.
QuoteMy arguments have been perfectly valid.
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, and if you post them on the internet people are entitled to tell you how stupid those opinions are.
However, pretty your only contribution has been to complain about the inclusion of gay characters, while telling everyone you are definitely not homophobic and don't mind the inclusion of gay characters. People who are not homophobic don't complain about "LGBT brainwashing" - they accept that gay people exist and should be included in the same way as everyone else.
You are determined that the Doctor must be male, but are unable to explain why, other than "it was better in the old days" - in which case it should be filmed in black and white and star William Hartnel.
You make sweeping statements about how almost the entire fan base agrees with you, when clearly they do not.
The whole "you're bigots for not accepting my opinion" is tired and boring. The opinions you have repeatedly expressed, not just on this thread but on others, are singular and small minded and other boarders are allowed to point that out. That doesn't make them bad people for disagreeing with your limited view of the world.
The gender or sexuality of a character is irrelevant, unless their gender or sexuality is a defining aspect. James Bond is always male, because the whole point in the character is that he is a view of toxic, aggressive masculinity. The Doctor is pretty much asexual and genderless. What matters are the personality traits of the character and the talent of the actor involved. I'm sorry you can't accept that and agree that you shouldn't watch any more, or indeed continuing posting about the show here.
Quote from: Modern Panther on 10 July, 2017, 08:08:32 AM
The Doctor is pretty much asexual and genderless.
I dunno about that - it's not that the Doctor has any one trait that is exclusively male, but the combination thereof, and the way they are expressed, seem to me intrinsically masculine. (Yes, the character changes with the actor, but the changes are generally pretty surface-level.)
Modern Panther keeps it real.
I'm going to agree with ABCwarBOT on one specific point.
I think an older Doctor is still fine. Agree it's likely the BBC blame the ratings decline on Capaldi's age, but I prefer to ascribe it to a combination of poor scripts, poor scheduling and top brass generally not giving the show enough love.
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 10 July, 2017, 06:54:35 PM
I think an older Doctor is still fine. Agree it's likely the BBC blame the ratings decline on Capaldi's age, but I prefer to ascribe it to a combination of poor scripts, poor scheduling and top brass generally not giving the show enough love.
All those things were demonstrably true, arguably more so, during Smith's tenure which makes it hard to avoid the conclusion that Capaldi's Doctor specifically has failed to connect with a chunk of Nü Who's audience; the chunk that isn't fuelled by nostalgia for the 70s/80s incarnation of the series.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 10 July, 2017, 07:10:31 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 10 July, 2017, 06:54:35 PM
I think an older Doctor is still fine. Agree it's likely the BBC blame the ratings decline on Capaldi's age, but I prefer to ascribe it to a combination of poor scripts, poor scheduling and top brass generally not giving the show enough love.
All those things were demonstrably true, arguably more so, during Smith's tenure which makes it hard to avoid the conclusion that Capaldi's Doctor specifically has failed to connect with a chunk of Nü Who's audience; the chunk that isn't fuelled by nostalgia for the 70s/80s incarnation of the series.
Matt Smith had a really strong introduction though, alongside Amy. The whole 'fish fingers and custard' thing endeared both characters to audiences immediately. Also, affectations like the 'bow ties are cool' and fez wearing have nothing to do with age but certainly contributed to that Doctors quirky appeal. I think they tried to do something similar with Capaldi (sunglasses and electric guitar) but it was miscalculated.
If Capaldi had the benefit of a stronger opening story/series (and a more charismatic companion with better chemistry) I suspect things could have gone very differently.
Quote from: JamesC on 10 July, 2017, 07:32:22 PM
If Capaldi had the benefit of a stronger opening story/series (and a more charismatic companion with better chemistry) I suspect things could have gone very differently.
Well, we're never going to know, are we? The unavoidable fact now is that the kids aren't watching, as demonstrated by Panini's younger-aimed Dr Who comic going 'on hiatus' with a possible return next year, i.e.: when they see if the viewing figures turn round with a new Doctor.
Please note that I say this with no small amount of sadness, since Capaldi is
comfortably my favourite Doctor of the modern Who era, and places pretty high in my all-time rankings...
Quote from: JamesC on 10 July, 2017, 07:32:22 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 10 July, 2017, 07:10:31 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 10 July, 2017, 06:54:35 PM
I think an older Doctor is still fine. Agree it's likely the BBC blame the ratings decline on Capaldi's age, but I prefer to ascribe it to a combination of poor scripts, poor scheduling and top brass generally not giving the show enough love.
All those things were demonstrably true, arguably more so, during Smith's tenure which makes it hard to avoid the conclusion that Capaldi's Doctor specifically has failed to connect with a chunk of Nü Who's audience; the chunk that isn't fuelled by nostalgia for the 70s/80s incarnation of the series.
Matt Smith had a really strong introduction though, alongside Amy. The whole 'fish fingers and custard' thing endeared both characters to audiences immediately. Also, affectations like the 'bow ties are cool' and fez wearing have nothing to do with age but certainly contributed to that Doctors quirky appeal. I think they tried to do something similar with Capaldi (sunglasses and electric guitar) but it was miscalculated.
If Capaldi had the benefit of a stronger opening story/series (and a more charismatic companion with better chemistry) I suspect things could have gone very differently.
Yes the opening episode, Deep Breath was terrible. Most of it was Clara moaning about Doctor Who being old, even the 11th mentioned it! Really bad idea to draw attention to it & Clara of all the companions should not be the one bothered by it. I only wish all Capaldi's seasons had been like the one that's just finished.
Capaldi was initially poorly directed and his Doctor's character took a while to settle down. He was, initially, too distant and alien. It might have made for a nice contrast for grown-ups, but I can see why younglings didn't generally warm to him. By this last series, it had all settled down and it was, for me, probably the best new-Who on balance. I'm happy he's gone out on a high at least.
I don't think any drop in ratings or toy sales has got anything to do with Capaldi though no doubt some will seek to blame his age. Many older fans (who are a big chunk of the audience) thought Matt Smith was way too young so it probably balances itself out. Again kids didn't stop watching the classic series because the first 4 Doctors were older.
Also I go round many stores and there didn't appear to be a drop in toy sales...........they just seemed to disappear overnight. Which was odd.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's people who can't wait to see Capaldi supposedly fail so they can bring in a much younger Doctor especially a female one.
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 10 July, 2017, 06:54:35 PM
I'm going to agree with ABCwarBOT on one specific point.
I think an older Doctor is still fine. Agree it's likely the BBC blame the ratings decline on Capaldi's age, but I prefer to ascribe it to a combination of poor scripts, poor scheduling and top brass generally not giving the show enough love.
Of course an older Doctor is still fine and agree they'll probably blame him even though it's probably other things.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 10 July, 2017, 09:37:30 PMbring in a much younger Doctor especially a female one.
I hope so x
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 10 July, 2017, 09:37:30 PM
I don't think any drop in ratings or toy sales has got anything to do with Capaldi though no doubt some will seek to blame his age.
Despite a massive pile of evidence to support that contention. Meanwhile, ABCwarBOT will continue to assert his position without so much as a shred of evidence to justify his belief that he speaks for 'real' Dr Who fans.
You really are the most feeble little bigoted troll to blight this forum for quite a long time.
I also note with interest that you failed to address this:
QuoteI'm trying to say that someone who says a role can only be fulfilled by a man because it has previously only been fulfilled by men, even though there is no reason why a woman couldn't do it, is an idiot and a sexist. If you disagree that the described position is sexist, you need a better dictionary.
Which, I would suggest, rather neatly illustrates my point.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 10 July, 2017, 11:33:37 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 10 July, 2017, 09:37:30 PM
I don't think any drop in ratings or toy sales has got anything to do with Capaldi though no doubt some will seek to blame his age.
Despite a massive pile of evidence to support that contention. Meanwhile, ABCwarBOT will continue to assert his position without so much as a shred of evidence to justify his belief that he speaks for 'real' Dr Who fans.
You really are the most feeble little bigoted troll to blight this forum for quite a long time.
I also note with interest that you failed to address this:
QuoteI'm trying to say that someone who says a role can only be fulfilled by a man because it has previously only been fulfilled by men, even though there is no reason why a woman couldn't do it, is an idiot and a sexist. If you disagree that the described position is sexist, you need a better dictionary.
Which, I would suggest, rather neatly illustrates my point.
What "massive pile of evidence"? If I'm a feeble little bigoted troll then so are you. You just epitomise this nasty SJW type of idiot who blights many forums. I've seen idiots like you on other sites and you're only interest is in shouting people down who you don't agree with. All or nothing with clowns like you. Everything's black and white isn't it?
And yes I'll address that stupid, pathetic point. Of course a female could be made as the Doctor or any other previously male character. Some twat of a writer could make a piece of scrap metal be the Doctor or a 12 year old boy.....but that doesn't mean they should.
I don't want to see a piece of scrap metal or a 12 year old boy being the Doctor. So does that mean I'm a scrapmetalist or a scrapmetalophobe. Does that mean I'm a 12yearoldist or 12yearoldphobe?
Ooohh booy, your further down the crazy right winger rabbit hole than I thought.
Eat a snickers and jog on elsewhere, boyo.
Actually, if it was well written and acted, I reckon a boy Doctor could work. A sort of 'accident with the regeneration' story might be quite good. The 'old mind in a young body' trope has been used plenty of times in Sci-Fi and horror (mainly vampire stories) so I'd certainly be willing to give it a chance on Doctor Who.
I'd worry about them pulling it off, particularly in the acting stakes, but there's potential that the idea could work.
Not sure about the piece of scrap metal though. It'd have to be something quirky - perhaps the near-side wing of a 2CV or something? :lol:
Quote from: JamesC on 11 July, 2017, 06:25:40 AM
Not sure about the piece of scrap metal though. It'd have to be something quirky - perhaps the near-side wing of a 2CV or something? :lol:
Actually, 2CVs are French and their word for car is feminine so maybe that's not such a good idea! :lol:
Quote from: JamesC on 11 July, 2017, 06:25:40 AM
Actually, if it was well written and acted, I reckon a boy Doctor could work. A sort of 'accident with the regeneration' story might be quite good. The 'old mind in a young body' trope has been used plenty of times in Sci-Fi and horror (mainly vampire stories) so I'd certainly be willing to give it a chance on Doctor Who.
I'd worry about them pulling it off, particularly in the acting stakes, but there's potential that the idea could work.
Not sure about the piece of scrap metal though. It'd have to be something quirky - perhaps the near-side wing of a 2CV or something? :lol:
Yeah the scrap metal probably wouldn't work. :) Agree that a boy Doctor could probably work for an episode or two where he gets regenerated back to being young but I certainly wouldn't want to see a 12 year old permanently. A lot of people have complained there's been too many kids in Nu Who anyway.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 11 July, 2017, 05:46:27 AM
Ooohh booy, your further down the crazy right winger rabbit hole than I thought.
Eat a snickers and jog on elsewhere, boyo.
Careful now Mr SJW. If I was Welsh I could be insulted by your use of the word "boyo" and call you a racist
As I said. I'm obviously a right wing Tory who hates benefit claimants, foreigners and reads the Daily Mail.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/bS3QQjYp39gXK/giphy.gif)
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 11 July, 2017, 02:12:20 AM
—angry rant snipped—
...And I think that's a full house on the Spot The Daily Mail Reader Bingo Card.
I haven't shouted you down, I've tried to clearly and concisely explain why the things you're saying make you sound like a homophobe and a sexist. At any point, you could have clarified or modified your position, but every time you chose to double down on the stupid option. If you say close-minded and bigoted things, you don't get to complain when people call you out on them. If that's not what you meant, it's incumbent on you to make your position clear; if it
is what you meant, than you have to expect the consequences.
Your telling use of 'SJW' is the icing on the cake. Am I happy that a mainstream TV show should use a tiny fraction of its reach to tell kids that it's really ok if they're gay? That maybe, just maybe, one depressed or suicidal teen might take heart from that message? If that makes me an 'SJW', if thinking that a woman should be able to have a job if she can do it as well as a man makes me an SJW, well, fuck it, I'm not offended. I'll take that badge and I'll wear it with pride, thank you very much.
You're clearly never going to see why other people might have issues with some of the things you've said here, so I'll stop trying. Modern Panther is right though -- maybe you should stop watching the show. I don't think it's very good for your blood pressure. This conversation certainly isn't much good for mine.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 11 July, 2017, 07:01:24 AM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/bS3QQjYp39gXK/giphy.gif)
Great film but maybe some people might think you and one or two other people on here are loony's.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 11 July, 2017, 07:02:49 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 11 July, 2017, 02:12:20 AM
—angry rant snipped—
Your telling use of 'SJW' is the icing on the cake. Am I happy that a mainstream TV show should use a tiny fraction of its reach to tell kids that it's really ok if they're gay? That maybe, just maybe, one depressed or suicidal teen might take heart from that message? If that makes me an 'SJW', if thinking that a woman should be able to have a job if she can do it as well as a man makes me an SJW, well, fuck it, I'm not offended. I'll take that badge and I'll wear it with pride, thank you very much.
You're clearly never going to see why other people might have issues with some of the things you've said here, so I'll stop trying. Modern Panther is right though -- maybe you should stop watching the show. I don't think it's very good for your blood pressure. This conversation certainly isn't much good for mine.
This.
I'm flamming gay AF and i'll never apologise for wanting more positive representation in media, god knows we need it.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 11 July, 2017, 07:02:49 AM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 11 July, 2017, 02:12:20 AM
—angry rant snipped—
...And I think that's a full house on the Spot The Daily Mail Reader Bingo Card.
I haven't shouted you down, I've tried to clearly and concisely explain why the things you're saying make you sound like a homophobe and a sexist. At any point, you could have clarified or modified your position, but every time you chose to double down on the stupid option. If you say close-minded and bigoted things, you don't get to complain when people call you out on them. If that's not what you meant, it's incumbent on you to make your position clear; if it is what you meant, than you have to expect the consequences.
Your telling use of 'SJW' is the icing on the cake. Am I happy that a mainstream TV show should use a tiny fraction of its reach to tell kids that it's really ok if they're gay? That maybe, just maybe, one depressed or suicidal teen might take heart from that message? If that makes me an 'SJW', if thinking that a woman should be able to have a job if she can do it as well as a man makes me an SJW, well, fuck it, I'm not offended. I'll take that badge and I'll wear it with pride, thank you very much.
You're clearly never going to see why other people might have issues with some of the things you've said here, so I'll stop trying. Modern Panther is right though -- maybe you should stop watching the show. I don't think it's very good for your blood pressure. This conversation certainly isn't much good for mine.
Well you've tried to shout me down haven't you. That doesn't work with me and neither does the misuse and overuse of the words homophobe or sexist (like you SJW types like to fling about like there's no tomorrow). As I said I've seen this on other film sites where someone might have the audacity to say something like they don't want to see a characters gender changed or something that is wrongly perceived as hate and they all come out of the woodwork like a pack of wolves and try to bully said person into submission.
And I don't make any apologies for using that "icing on the cake" phrase as you and 1 or 2 other people on here fit that description very well. As I've pointed out time and time again I don't have a problem with an LGBT character here and there....just not involving the Doctor. Yet as usual it's all homophobia and sexism to you isn't it. And it's also not a case of just being whether a woman can do the job of being a Doctor just as well as a man.
Hey maybe it's a case of..........I dunno........."I or plenty of other people don't want to see a female Doctor full stop" And that ain't automatically being sexist. There's no written rule that means people have to want a female Doctor and there's also not even a written rule that says people have to like any LGBT stuff in the show either. And that doesn't automatically make them a flippin homophobe.
And funnily enough. I don't read the Daily Mail and I voted for Jeremy Corbyn in the last election. So put that in yer pipe and smoke it.
Okay, here's the thing...
I think that there are two issues being conflated here. One which is actually important and the other which really isn't:
You don't want a woman to play a character in a tv show. Fine. I personally don't give a fig. I think you're wrong, and limited in your thinking, but really, don't care.
The more important issue is the way you've spoken about the representation of gay people, seem keen on limitations on women in the media, and then play the victim when people point out your views are openly discriminatory.
I started reading 2000ad when I was eleven. Now, Al Gore hadn't invented the internet at that stage, but if he had, I'd certainly be on this forum, reading the views of middle aged comic fans. Those are formative years, when many young people are coming to terms with who they are. What is said here, and what is accepted as the norm, has an effect.
You might not like it, but some of your comments have been homophobic. I appreciate that you maybe didn't mean it that way, but the idea that including gay characters is a form of "brainwashing" is a nasty thing to believe, which people who are gay and have fought for acceptance their whole lives are certain to take as an insult.
And frankly, you can piss off with the whole "sjw" thing. I don't care what paper you read or party you vote for, it's a term used by small minded people to insult anyone who questions their smallmindedness.
Plus "I don't have a problem with an LGBT character here and there....just not involving the Doctor". Urgh.
Estimates suggest anything from 5–10 per cent of the population is gay; a higher percentage is not CIS. "Here and there!" Beyond that, we have – as Geena Davis pointed out – truly absurd situations in film and television, where people see crowd scenes that are wildly biased towards men as being even, and when the ratio hits 50/50, men lose their shit.
Things do need to change, but the wailing entitlement of white, straight men is going to hold up those barriers for as long as possible. And I say that as as white, straight man. But I'm fucking sick of it, and this thread, for that matter, which appears to have been derailed from a nice discussion about a TV show to regular posters yelling at what comes across like a sentient Daily Mail comments thread.
ABCwarBOT: please consider some of your words more carefully, and if you wish to engage with those arguing with you, please do so constructively, rather than flinging back the same retorts time and again. (On evidence of the drop in support for Doctor Who, I assume you realise one of the people you were arguing with has been directly involved in making Doctor Who merchandise? He might therefore have a good insight into what's going on. And as another noted, the main Doctor Who mag for kids is now on hiatus for low sales.)
Everyone else: please refrain from insults and interact constructively.
I really don't have the motivation to tear this thread in two (and I'm not even sure that's possible), but that might be required soon, I think.
I had to look up what SJW meant :-[
SJW? I think it means "I treat people with equal respect!". I don't understand why anyone would hurl it around like an insult.
From Wikipedia:
Quote"Social justice warrior" (commonly abbreviated SJW) is a pejorative term for an individual promoting socially progressive views,[1] including feminism,[1][2] civil rights,[1] multiculturalism,[1] and identity politics.[3] The accusation of being an SJW carries implications of pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction,[4] and being engaged in disingenuous social justice arguments or activism to raise personal reputation, also known as virtue signalling.[5]
File with "do-gooder" (How dare people try to do good?)
I've scrolled through several pages of that ridiculous argument and have nothing to add.
My two penn'orth on the new doc - Phoebe Waller Bridge would be great for the role, but I don't think it would be good for her - she's red-hot after fleabag but between inevitable typecasting and dicks like ABCwarbot it could derail her career. Swinton may be 56 ( really? :o) but she's got that weird ethereal otherworldly agelessness going on, so she'd be fine.
Or it could be Kris Marshall! (Unlike many people, I actually don't have it in for Marshall. I really liked his stint on Death in Paradise, which is, to my mind, a very under-rated show among people who instantly dismiss mainstream programming. But he'd be the magnolia option in casting for this particular show – inoffensive and unimaginative.)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 11 July, 2017, 01:53:08 PM
But he'd be the magnolia option in casting for this particular show – inoffensive and unimaginative.
Arguably, the programme is not in a position where it can afford to take risks.
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 11 July, 2017, 01:23:16 PM
I had to look up what SJW meant :-[
Ban in my day it meant Shonen Jump Weekly! ;)
Quote from: Greg M. on 11 July, 2017, 02:04:03 PMArguably, the programme is not in a position where it can afford to take risks.
Casting someone like him might in itself be a risk, unless he did
really well in the audition.
Idris Elba or Ray Winstone for me.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 11 July, 2017, 02:50:45 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 11 July, 2017, 02:04:03 PMArguably, the programme is not in a position where it can afford to take risks.
Casting someone like him might in itself be a risk, unless he did really well in the audition.
The show badly needs to regain the mainstream audience - can't see too much risk in casting a decent, quirky, mainstream actor like Marshall to do the job. (Like yourself, I still suspect they'll go younger - the Luke Treadaway type.)
I think there are plenty of youngish handsome blokes who could do a decent job if that's what the BBC are looking for.
Damien Molony would be good - he played the vampire Hal in later series of Being Human. I thought he did a good job of flipping between vulnerable and threatening.
Quote from: Old Tankie on 11 July, 2017, 03:00:56 PM
Idris Elba or Ray Winstone for me.
60 year-old Ray 'one note' Winstone.
Gawd, yes, that'll bring the kids flocking back.
I did say for me. I haven't got a clue who the kids would want!
Quote from: GordonR on 11 July, 2017, 03:27:21 PM
Quote from: Old Tankie on 11 July, 2017, 03:00:56 PM
Idris Elba or Ray Winstone for me.
60 year-old Ray 'one note' Winstone.
Gawd, yes, that'll bring the kids flocking back.
The slags!
Radio Times headline
Who is the daddy.
Leave it out guv! I think he would be a great Doc.
Ye'd need a Ray Winstone constitution to wade through the past dozen or so pages of this thread.
Now shuut it you facking cants!
*Disappears into background crowd of 85% blokes*
Quote from: JamesC on 07 July, 2017, 04:14:52 PM
My pick for a female Doctor would be Vicky McClure because she's fucking brilliant in everything.
Wasn't mad on any of the potential actresses mooted for the role so far, but she would be
great.
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 11 July, 2017, 01:23:16 PM
I had to look up what SJW meant :-[
So did I. The actual words themselves 'Social Justice Warior' seem like a good thing to be, although it's associated with something negative..
Back after holiday and finally see it. Loved it!
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 02 July, 2017, 09:11:26 PM
I thought that was pissin awful. As well as being even more of a blatant LGBT advert than last weeks with all the gender change discussions and gay kiss at the end the Cybermen weren't scary at all.
Plus they had woman Bill being turned into a Cyberman (yet more gender change nonsense) and hanging about in a completely non threatening way. Utter shite!
Just read all your posts, what a nasty troll. You don't like women and gay? Feelings sorry for your hating life.
Quote from: Mardroid on 11 July, 2017, 06:06:41 PM
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 11 July, 2017, 01:23:16 PM
I had to look up what SJW meant :-[
So did I. The actual words themselves 'Social Justice Warior' seem like a good thing to be, although it's associated with something negative..
Yep, it is a good thing. Unless you are a horrible bigot like ABCwarBOT!
The troll grows fatter and fatter...
My vote for next Who is Naomie Harris, she has the chops but sadly has been in a few duds recently, so a rebound iconic role is in much need.
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 11 July, 2017, 07:05:33 PM
The troll grows fatter and fatter...
My vote for next Who is Naomie Harris, she has the chops but sadly has been in a few duds recently, so a rebound iconic role is in much need.
A few duds like Moonlight?
Quote from: Goaty on 11 July, 2017, 06:12:42 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 02 July, 2017, 09:11:26 PM
I thought that was pissin awful. As well as being even more of a blatant LGBT advert than last weeks with all the gender change discussions and gay kiss at the end the Cybermen weren't scary at all.
Plus they had woman Bill being turned into a Cyberman (yet more gender change nonsense) and hanging about in a completely non threatening way. Utter shite!
Just read all your posts, what a nasty troll. You don't like women and gay? Feelings sorry for your hating life.
If anyone wants to see a great example of what I mean just read this idiotic post.
Quote from: JLC on 11 July, 2017, 06:33:43 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 11 July, 2017, 06:06:41 PM
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 11 July, 2017, 01:23:16 PM
I had to look up what SJW meant :-[
So did I. The actual words themselves 'Social Justice Warior' seem like a good thing to be, although it's associated with something negative..
Yep, it is a good thing. Unless you are a horrible bigot like ABCwarBOT!
And another one.
And Goaty it doesn't surprise me you've jumped on the bandwagon as well. You were one of the most vocal about any criticisms of Dredd and you were quite nasty about it.
Wasn't your name in the film or something?
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 11 July, 2017, 09:30:42 PM
Quote from: JLC on 11 July, 2017, 06:33:43 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 11 July, 2017, 06:06:41 PM
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 11 July, 2017, 01:23:16 PM
I had to look up what SJW meant :-[
So did I. The actual words themselves 'Social Justice Warior' seem like a good thing to be, although it's associated with something negative..
Yep, it is a good thing. Unless you are a horrible bigot like ABCwarBOT!
And another one.
Yep. Saying it as I see it based on your views >:(
Quote from: JLC on 11 July, 2017, 09:41:22 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 11 July, 2017, 09:30:42 PM
Quote from: JLC on 11 July, 2017, 06:33:43 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 11 July, 2017, 06:06:41 PM
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 11 July, 2017, 01:23:16 PM
I had to look up what SJW meant :-[
So did I. The actual words themselves 'Social Justice Warior' seem like a good thing to be, although it's associated with something negative..
Yep, it is a good thing. Unless you are a horrible bigot like ABCwarBOT!
And another one.
Yep. Saying it as I see it based on your views >:(
Like I said. A pack of wolves trying to bully someone into submission. And talking utter shite too.
Quote from: JLC on 11 July, 2017, 08:58:50 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 11 July, 2017, 07:05:33 PM
The troll grows fatter and fatter...
My vote for next Who is Naomie Harris, she has the chops but sadly has been in a few duds recently, so a rebound iconic role is in much need.
A few duds like Moonlight?
I said a few, mostly refering to Spectre and Collateral Beauty.
MOONLIGHT was superb in everyway.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 11 July, 2017, 09:48:29 PM
Quote from: JLC on 11 July, 2017, 09:41:22 PM
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 11 July, 2017, 09:30:42 PM
Quote from: JLC on 11 July, 2017, 06:33:43 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 11 July, 2017, 06:06:41 PM
Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 11 July, 2017, 01:23:16 PM
I had to look up what SJW meant :-[
So did I. The actual words themselves 'Social Justice Warior' seem like a good thing to be, although it's associated with something negative..
Yep, it is a good thing. Unless you are a horrible bigot like ABCwarBOT!
And another one.
Yep. Saying it as I see it based on your views >:(
Like I said. A pack of wolves trying to bully someone into submission. And talking utter shite too.
Trying to act the victim. Hilarous if it didn't come across as so pathetic.
Quote from: Tjm86 on 11 July, 2017, 01:43:00 PM
From Wikipedia:
Quote"Social justice warrior" (commonly abbreviated SJW) is a pejorative term for an individual promoting socially progressive views,[1] including feminism,[1][2] civil rights,[1] multiculturalism,[1] and identity politics.[3] The accusation of being an SJW carries implications of pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction,[4] and being engaged in disingenuous social justice arguments or activism to raise personal reputation, also known as virtue signalling.[5]
Stand up for somebody else, without any personal gain - I can see why some people would find it difficult to believe anybody would do that (contrast with 'white-knighting').
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 11 July, 2017, 07:28:11 AM
And funnily enough. I don't read the Daily Mail and I voted for Jeremy Corbyn in the last election. So put that in yer pipe and smoke it.
Completely aside from any discussion on a) Doctor Who and b) other things that have arisen in this thread - if you voted for JC you must live pretty close to me (I'm in JC's constituency as well).
Quote from: sheridan on 11 July, 2017, 10:03:00 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 11 July, 2017, 01:43:00 PM
From Wikipedia:
Quote"Social justice warrior" (commonly abbreviated SJW) is a pejorative term for an individual promoting socially progressive views,[1] including feminism,[1][2] civil rights,[1] multiculturalism,[1] and identity politics.[3] The accusation of being an SJW carries implications of pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction,[4] and being engaged in disingenuous social justice arguments or activism to raise personal reputation, also known as virtue signalling.[5]
Stand up for somebody else, without any personal gain - I can see why some people would find it difficult to believe anybody would do that (contrast with 'white-knighting').
Nothing wrong with standing up for somebody without any personal gain (as long as it's not someone who's been proved to have done something like abused kids etc) but that's not an SJW.
Here's a good description of yer typical SJW........
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=social%20justice%20warrior
In my day we called them SMAs - Straw Man Arguments.
Quote from: ABCwarBOT on 11 July, 2017, 10:13:51 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 11 July, 2017, 10:03:00 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 11 July, 2017, 01:43:00 PM
From Wikipedia:
Quote"Social justice warrior" (commonly abbreviated SJW) is a pejorative term for an individual promoting socially progressive views,[1] including feminism,[1][2] civil rights,[1] multiculturalism,[1] and identity politics.[3] The accusation of being an SJW carries implications of pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction,[4] and being engaged in disingenuous social justice arguments or activism to raise personal reputation, also known as virtue signalling.[5]
Stand up for somebody else, without any personal gain - I can see why some people would find it difficult to believe anybody would do that (contrast with 'white-knighting').
Nothing wrong with standing up for somebody without any personal gain (as long as it's not someone who's been proved to have done something like abused kids etc) but that's not an SJW.
Here's a good description of yer typical SJW........
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=social%20justice%20warrior
[/quote
Resorting to the Urban Dictionary! :lol:
That description makes rather rash & baseless accusations about people here who, as far as I can tell, simply believe in equality. Something your apparent homophobic & misogynistic comments imply that you sir do not. NOT AT ALL SIR!
This thread is now closed due to on-going unacceptable behaviour and language. Further discussion along these lines on other threads will result in closure of those threads and temporary bans to those involved.