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2000 AD => General => Topic started by: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 01:20:30 PM

Title: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 01:20:30 PM
Just musing over Zenith, particularly Phase IV.  There probably aren't any black-and-white answers here but just wondering what other people's opinions are.  I won't include spoiler tags; just don't read on if you haven't read Zenith.


1.  If all superhumans in Zenith's world are coterminous* with the Lloigor, why aren't Zenith and St John Lloigor themselves?  Or is that what is implied at the end of Phase 4?  If so, they still seemed to be pretty unLloigorish in zzzenith.com.

2.  How did Peter St John trap the Lloigor in Chimaera?  It was something connected to Ruby smashing what seemed to be the pyramid, I'm sure.

3.  How did Peyne come to see the events of the Lloigor reaching the edges of the replica universe?

4.  Why didn't Lux, Spook and the rest meet miniature versions of themselves inside Chimaera?  Only Zenith and St John seemed to have been replicated by Chimaera.

5.  If Chimaera is pyramid-shaped, does that mean the actual universe is too?

6.  How did Lux come back to life before Phase 3?  Think I missed that bit (not being sarcastic or anything - I really do think I missed it or can't remember it).

7.  Was the Peyne in Chimaera just a Chimaera creation?  If so, is there another, full-sized Peyne in the 'real' Zenith universe?

8.  Is Zenith's universe (not withstanding the parallel ones) an infinite Russian-doll style set of ever-smaller Chimaeras inside Chimaeras?

Come to think of it, is that what our universe is?  Jesus, Morrison, you've quite the imagination, for a bald Scotch magic knight.

*a word I just learned from looking up Yog Sothoth on Wikipedia.






Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Proudhuff on 06 May, 2013, 02:00:37 PM
yes.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Link Prime on 06 May, 2013, 02:59:13 PM
Like you Jayzus, I'm a huge fan of this story and spent a few teenage nights pondering the same questions (when I obviously should have been pondering more fickle topics).

My take;

1) I always took it that Zenith & St. John are in fact Lloigor too. So why aren't they evil Gods trying to enslave mankind? I dunno. It was always implied that St John was ultimately up to that anyway, just using more Machiavellian means to do so (i.e. through British and therefore global politics).
2) The moment that Ruby destroyed the pyramid is the moment that the switch-er-oo took place, albeit 'off camera'.
3) I took this as just being 'artistic licence'.
4) When they were shunted to the Chimaera universe they 'over-wrote' that version of themselves.
5) Doubt it. I don't know much about astro-physics, but I don't think the word 'shape' could even be applied.
6) Was it ever proven he was dead? Or just somehow that his powers gave him the ability to dimension jump to other parallels?
7) This never actually occurred to me. Only the Lloigor shunted to the Chimaera universe. I'd say yeah- Peyne is alive and well in the 'real' universe.
8) I took it as being one of an infinite number of 'parallels' (similar to almost every comic book universe' idea of parallels.).
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 06 May, 2013, 03:35:25 PM
Aha, my favourite subject!

1) Zenith and St John are just as powerful as the Lloigor, but identify as human rather than Cosmic Superbeings.

2) I think this is deliberately left unexplained.

3) Peyne doesn't but St John does.

4) St John constructed it as a trap. He had plenty of opportunity to alter the Chimera universe to his liking.

5) No.

6) Lux wasn't dead, he just fell through a mirror into an alternate universe.

7) No, that's the real Peyne within the fake universe. The text makes it pretty clear he's been put there by St John.

8) No, it's a DC comics style Multiverse.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 04:17:38 PM
Thanks, folks!  I too love discussing the Zenith universe (hence the thread, I suppose).

Quote3) Peyne doesn't but St John does.

Are you sure?  It seems to be Peyne's voice narrating the weird events.  I took it to mean that this event happens / happened outside of linear time; and Peyne's consciousness as part of Chimaera could perceive it happening.

Quote4) St John constructed it as a trap. He had plenty of opportunity to alter the Chimera universe to his liking.

I thought Chimaera shaped itself; in Zenith's room, without any outside help. St John only learned to use it as a trap. You may well be right, though I prefer Link's explanation:

Quote4) When they were shunted to the Chimaera universe they 'over-wrote' that version of themselves.

Quote6) Lux wasn't dead, he just fell through a mirror into an alternate universe.

I thought this was the case; but I don't remember seeing it anywhere in the story.


Quote7) No, that's the real Peyne within the fake universe. The text makes it pretty clear he's been put there by St John.

Really?  Another bit that went over my head!  Though I do recall Peyne writing about a vague memory of St John visiting him with something in his hand, so your theory makes perfect sense.  Obviously like the Lloigor he had no memory of the event though it was buried somewhere in his unconscious - which also helps to explain number 3.


Quote8) I took it as being one of an infinite number of 'parallels' (similar to almost every comic book universe' idea of parallels.).
Quote8) No, it's a DC comics style Multiverse.

See now, the way I saw it was that the Chimaera events were a sort of explanation as to why there was a Multiverse in Zenith.  Though of course this doesn't explain how they can align as in Phase 3, but then I saw the geometric alignment as only a sort of simplified visual metaphor for what the Lloigor were trying to do.  Much like, I suppose, the pyramid (I know the universe couldn't actually be pyramid-shaped, but that's just how normal people or even superhumans perceived it in Zenith).
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 06 May, 2013, 04:48:12 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 04:17:38 PM
Are you sure?  It seems to be Peyne's voice narrating the weird events.  I took it to mean that this event happens / happened outside of linear time; and Peyne's consciousness as part of Chimaera could perceive it happening.

I just re-read Episode 14 of Phase IV and it's definitely narrated by St John, although due to the big reveal at the end it does try to throw the reader off the scent by hinting it might be Peyne.

In fact, Peyne is already dead by this point, and his memoirs are destroyed on the first page.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 06:04:34 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 06 May, 2013, 04:48:12 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 04:17:38 PM
Are you sure?  It seems to be Peyne's voice narrating the weird events.  I took it to mean that this event happens / happened outside of linear time; and Peyne's consciousness as part of Chimaera could perceive it happening.

I just re-read Episode 14 of Phase IV and it's definitely narrated by St John, although due to the big reveal at the end it does try to throw the reader off the scent by hinting it might be Peyne.

In fact, Peyne is already dead by this point, and his memoirs are destroyed on the first page.

Just re-read it myself - your theory makes sense but I can't quite understand why St John would be oblivious as to who he himself as the narrator is, and why he would feel so distanced and impartial to what's going on. 
Sorry if I'm being thick, but it seems now to me that it's Chimaera speaking; and Chimaera's consciousness includes (though as a very, very small fragment) that of Peyne, despite his being dead (or pre-born, or post-born, or whatever). 
The voice identifies itself as Peyne, then specifies that part of it is Peyne, or that Peyne is just a part of something bigger. 
Hope that makes sense; please do contradict me if it doesn't.  I'm loving this conversation by the way!
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 06 May, 2013, 06:17:20 PM
He sees St John's hands as his own hands so I think we can be fairly certain it's him doing the narrating.

I suspect St John doesn't know who he is immediately because he has a gone a bit transcendental whilst watching events inside Chimera. Also, as I said, it's very important to the story we don't know it's him earlier since he's supposed to have been killed several episodes ago.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 06:38:44 PM
Sorry, I honestly couldn't find anywhere that says it's his own hand!  Also, earlier in the story as I mentioned, Peyne recounts a vague half-memory of Peter St John visiting him with something in his hand.  In part 12, the voice says 'And I finally see what it's holding' - which also leads me to presume that this disembodied voice may well be composed in part of Peyne, who has at last filled in that gap in his memory.  Just my reading of it anyway; as I say I may be wrong.

Something else just occurred to me about zzzenith.com too (which I really liked; though I know it wasn't for everyone).  Apart from the question as to who would be so fecking stupid as to allow the Chimaera to be sliced in half, does the curious last line of the story mean everybody died?  I know it's deliberately ambiguous.

One mystery that I recently did solve though was where Zenith and St John's final conversation was taken from.  I kind of guessed it was a quote from somewhere, then found this.  It seems to be very well-known, but not to me before now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpq-1B_OTbY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpq-1B_OTbY)
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 06:51:51 PM
Also, having just looked at my first post; I realise it looks like I thought our real universe is pyramid-shaped.  I meant the actual universe in Zenith's world.  I'm not that thick  :-[
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 06 May, 2013, 07:18:59 PM
I have to admit the caption "I am Peyne, or at least part of me is" does lend credence to your interpretation.

My take on it though is that the panel with the words "and I finally see what's it's holding" is a POV shot from St John's own eyes, looking at his own hands holding Chimera.

Oh, and I just re-read zzzenith.com and I am afraid I still hate it. I think it's some sort of parody. That last line you mention is probably just a lame joke, imho, but if you're being very charitable maybe the double meaning you mention was put there deliberately.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 08:07:40 PM
QuoteMy take on it though is that the panel with the words "and I finally see what's it's holding" is a POV shot from St John's own eyes, looking at his own hands holding Chimera.

Fair enough, we'll agree to differ.

QuoteOh, and I just re-read zzzenith.com and I am afraid I still hate it.

Again, fair enough.  It was deliberately nasty in places, that's for sure, but as a fan of Chris Morris, the Drunken Bakers from Viz and some of Irvine Welsh's books, I sometimes find nasty entertaining.  My only real criticism of it was the fact that it ruined the twist ending of Phase 4 by revealing St John's plans.

As for the question of whether or not Zenith and St John are Lloigor, here's an interesting take I've just found at http://www.barbelith.com/topic/18904 (http://www.barbelith.com/topic/18904):

QuoteThis is a problem, but not as big a problem as I think you imagine. The Black Flag/Cloud 9 metahumans do not become Lloigor until they incubate in the sun and "hatch" - so, what used to be Ruby Fox, say, is no longer Ruby Fox outside of Peyne's desire to comprehend and her/its indulgence of it. That's on the linear time model. Because the Lloigor are five-dimensional entities, their existence extends across time - so they exist, from our linear perspective, before they have been created. They, the dark gods, can exist at the same time (from our perspective) as the metahumans they grow from. It's possible that any metahumans could turn into dark gods given the right circumstances, but its also possible that it is some peculiarity in the Cloud 9/Black Flag creation process. Either way, Zenith/Peter St.John are not Lloigor because they don't become dark gods - the breeding programme followed by Peyne/White Heat/Iok Sotot is about creating superhuman bodies, not dark gods - at the time Zenith was conceived, his parents were planning to take over the world, not evolve into dark gods. His son *becomes* Iok Sotot after incubation in the sun.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 09:24:08 PM
Apologies for the double post; but here's the general theory I've cobbled together from the poster Only Nice Things's fascinating speculations on the website I linked to in the last post.  Not saying it's exactly what Grant Morrison was trying to say, but it's definitely food for thought.

The Lloigor only came into existence in Phase 4, within Chimera (not 'Chimaera', as I've also just discovered).  They were 'born' in the Black Sun inside Chimera.  The superhumans had realised that to fulfill their goals of becoming all-powerful, they would need to incubate within whatever the big black circle is.  So from the very start, from Phase 1 in fact, the Lloigor's dark dimension was in fact Chimera.  Look at when Iok Sotot is possessing Masterman.  Chimera, in pyramid form, is there in the room, in plain view. Seriously.  Have a look at it.

Anyways, when David Cambridge talks about having always been the Lloigor, this is because the Lloigor operate outside of time as we perceive it (which, as we know from Einstein, is in a very limited way).  The Lloigor travel 'back' in time (though that is meaningless, it's more like sideways) in Phases 3 and 1.  They have found ways to get out of the Chimera dimension, through those little spheres in Phase 3, but need the alignment to travel freely round the multiverse (i.e. Chimera and all the other parallel universes).  However, as they are beaten by non- or pre-Lloigor superhumans in 3, they can't do it - and therefore ALWAYS end up trapped within the walls of Chimera, no matter how much they travel around space and time beforehand - not that 'beforehand' makes any sense when time is as navigable as space.

ONT also posits that everything that happened involving Lloigor before Phase 4 takes place between the point where they find St John's hand at the edge of their universe, and the point where St John and Zenith go about their daily business.  Iok Sotot's job in assisting the nazis with the superhuman serum was to start the process of creating the superhumans that would become Lloigor, not merely to give the Lloigor bodies to possess.  When they possessed Hotspur, Maximan et al they were already Lux, Ruby, Zenith's son and the other Phase 4 lot, travelling around time.  Iok Sotot was always Zenith's inbred son, which may account for his lack of intelligence.  Probably not though, I doubt genetics had much to do with the incubation process.

Even at the moment their realisation of being trapped, they didn't reckon on St John being so smart and powerful.  So by moving around time, space and dimensions, they are stuck in an infinite loop that again and again ultimately leads to St John outwitting them and trapping them in just one:  Chimera.

Does that make any sense at all?  I've probably left out huge chunks of important stuff and my head hurts, but as I said, it's something to think about.

Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Link Prime on 06 May, 2013, 09:35:01 PM
A small trickle of very dark blood just came out of my left nostril.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 09:43:04 PM
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r153/brnwlsh/BlowUp-page5.jpg) (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/brnwlsh/media/BlowUp-page5.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Link Prime on 06 May, 2013, 09:44:59 PM
 :lol:

Seriously though....I'm re-reading this frickin thing first chance I get!
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: TordelBack on 06 May, 2013, 11:42:01 PM
I think Jayzus himself covers the big one - the superhumans become the Lloigor by choice by incubating in the Sun, and the Lloigor in turn create the superhumans in the 'past' to ensure their own creation.  However, in considering Chimera I think it's important to remember that that it too is a product of the serum, and thus the Lloigor. 

If I was to put a structure on the whole thing, I'd suggest that 'our' Iok Sotot & Co are actually the product of a different universe/parallel, who have achieved their aim: the transcendence of spacetime they seek at the close of Phase IV.  Once they have escaped their universe they enter Zenith's at a point in the past (timetravel not being part of the deal with the Einstein-Rosen Bridge method) to create new versions of themselves, thus propagating themselves across the multiverse.  However in Zenith's universe St. John uniquely uses their own creation Chimera to move them on to a pocket universe before they can gestate, and their plans are foiled by the specifc 'closed' nature of Chimera.

As to why there aren't existing versions of Cloud 9 et al already in Chimera, I'd say there definitely were up to that moment, but Chimera is a perfect copy of universe, and once St. John pops them in there the perfection would be broken, so Chimera simply integrates them as the sole versions. 
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Trout on 07 May, 2013, 12:13:27 AM
No, the nature of the Lloigor is that they are extra-dimensional. That means that - although they were born in a particular dimension - once they ascend they exist outside of spacetime. St John uses Chimera to trap them because it is as powerful as they are.

It's important to understand that Chimera is a universe that can change its shape, so it can decide what's in there. St John contacts it and Chimera agrees to help trap the Lloigor, so it would follow that it creates the necessary conditions.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: TordelBack on 07 May, 2013, 12:31:15 AM
Yeah, the connivance of Chimera as an entity, in effect an elder 'brother' of Cloud 9, is a key point in understanding what's going on.

As to the Lloigor existing outside of spacetime - isn't this state exactly what 'our' versions, Peyne's superhumans and their descendants and contemporaries from other parallels, were still only heading towards at the end of Phase IV, when their journey was cut short? 
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Trout on 07 May, 2013, 02:05:37 AM
My head hurts. Will someone ask Grant, please?  :lol:
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 07 May, 2013, 08:22:48 AM
I like cake.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: 13school on 07 May, 2013, 09:08:41 AM
I thought their location outside space & time was also their location inside Chimera - the bit where the Llogior are racing towards the end of the universe right before they discover they're trapped seems to suggest they pretty much trash their whole universe behind them, creating a place where time and space no longer apply. Inside Chimera is totally separate from our universe, so from there they can get to our universe at any point in time.

Put another way, St John traps the soon-to-be-Llogior in a pocket universe which - for reasons that are never explained - their "original" space monster forms don't notice is a pocket universe (let alone remember how they were created and trapped in the first place). So when Cloud 9 fly off from the (pocket universe's) Earth to join with their original forms that have seeded / formed a gateway in the sun, they're really just joining with their original forms inside the pocket universe / trap where they've always been.

As they need to join with their original forms to be able to enter the "real" world, having Cloud 9 being inside the pocket universe pulls them into the pocket universe. Where, really, they've always been anyway.

I think.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 07 May, 2013, 10:47:05 AM
Quote from: Trout on 07 May, 2013, 12:13:27 AM
It's important to understand that Chimera is a universe that can change its shape, so it can decide what's in there. St John contacts it and Chimera agrees to help trap the Lloigor, so it would follow that it creates the necessary conditions.

Highly plausible, I think you've nailed it!
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: TordelBack on 07 May, 2013, 03:17:15 PM
Having a one-volume Tyger Files: the Complete Zenith on one's desk would make this discussion much easier...
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 07 May, 2013, 07:10:43 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 07 May, 2013, 10:47:05 AM
Quote from: Trout on 07 May, 2013, 12:13:27 AM
It's important to understand that Chimera is a universe that can change its shape, so it can decide what's in there. St John contacts it and Chimera agrees to help trap the Lloigor, so it would follow that it creates the necessary conditions.

Highly plausible, I think you've nailed it!

Aye, I believe so.  Also I think I've worked out why Chimera is a pyramid - The Alignment of Phase 3 was supposed to be an omnihedron, so it figures that each seperate universe is tetrahedral.  Therefore Chimera, in copying an individual universe, has to be tetrehedral too.
Or at least tetrahedral to our very limited human perception.

Thirdly, I've found the bit where David Cambridge resurrects - Peyne explains that the disintegrated body found in the hotel room was not Lux at all, but a human substitute.  I'd forgotten about the interlude with the parallel Australia.
Jesus wept, Grant Morrison is even smarter than I thought.  My mind's blown by Zenith all over again now that we're filling in the gaps.  I've heard it said that Phase 4 seems tacked-on and unnecessary - I didn't agree then and I agree even less now; it's what binds the whole story together by explaining the true identity of the Lloigor, their origin and the reasons for their quest for ascension.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 07 May, 2013, 07:52:31 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 07 May, 2013, 07:10:43 PM
I've heard it said that Phase 4 seems tacked-on and unnecessary - I didn't agree then and I agree even less now; it's what binds the whole story together by explaining the true identity of the Lloigor, their origin and the reasons for their quest for ascension.

Phase IV is awesome, and completes the story beautifully. I know Morrison wasn't keen to write it - he was more interested in his American work - but the arm-twisting done to get it on the page does not come through at all.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 07 May, 2013, 07:52:40 PM
Gents, I can clear it all up in six panels. (Sorry, but I am disproportionally proud of this).


(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g174/daveycandlish/JikanWitchFires002.jpg)

Taken from this old thread:

https://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php/topic,27644.0.html (https://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php/topic,27644.0.html)


And can I add that Davey C's attention to detail is superb.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 07 May, 2013, 07:59:44 PM
I remember that one.  Nice work, sir! 
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 07 May, 2013, 08:09:41 PM
That is indeed Zenith in 6 panels. Bravo!
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 07 May, 2013, 08:12:02 PM
Oh, and...

QuoteAs to the Lloigor existing outside of spacetime - isn't this state exactly what 'our' versions, Peyne's superhumans and their descendants and contemporaries from other parallels, were still only heading towards at the end of Phase IV, when their journey was cut short?

Hmmm. Good point.  I thought they were already timeless though; the point of ascension was to be able to move freely around parallels and spacetime.  Before ascension they can still move about spacetime - they do it within the Chimera universe - but they can't travel freely from universe to universe without using hosts.  Hence the attempts at ascension in Phase 3.  Which is both before and after Phase 4.  Kind of thing.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Link Prime on 07 May, 2013, 08:39:26 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 07 May, 2013, 07:52:31 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 07 May, 2013, 07:10:43 PM
I've heard it said that Phase 4 seems tacked-on and unnecessary - I didn't agree then and I agree even less now; it's what binds the whole story together by explaining the true identity of the Lloigor, their origin and the reasons for their quest for ascension.

Phase IV is awesome, and completes the story beautifully. I know Morrison wasn't keen to write it - he was more interested in his American work - but the arm-twisting done to get it on the page does not come through at all.

Didn't know Morrison wasn't keen to write it...interesting.
Like you guys, I loved it by the way.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 07 May, 2013, 08:48:33 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 07 May, 2013, 08:39:26 PM
Didn't know Morrison wasn't keen to write it...interesting.

I got that from Thrill Power Overload (or to be more accurate, I got that from Wikipedia who said they got it from Thrill Power Overload).
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Buttonman on 24 May, 2013, 11:58:18 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 09:24:08 PM
Chimera, in pyramid form, is there in the room, in plain view. Seriously.  Have a look at it.


He's not wrong you know...

(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c118/button71/zenith-2_zps326b7355.png)

It is great Zenith - see something new every time. Strange how little Zenith actually contibutes though - guess they couldn't sell the Heseltine like St.John as the hero.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Sideshow Bob on 26 May, 2013, 07:07:24 PM
Couldn't find this thread earlier so posted a new thread in the Classifieds section today....
Link to ebay below.....

Just to let anyone who is interested know that there are several Zenith comics and two Zenith Phase 1 graphic Novels for sale on eBay...
Book 1 : For sale starting at £1.04
Book 1 : ( Brand New) Starting at £7...

There is also a Book 2, although this starts at £30...

Ps :  These are not mine, just saw them when perusing eBay and thought some of you guys might be interested...
Cheers..

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121115863774 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121115863774)
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330929233896 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330929233896)
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 31 May, 2013, 01:41:11 PM
QuoteStrange how little Zenith actually contibutes though - guess they couldn't sell the Heseltine like St.John as the hero.

Yeah, that's what I loved about Zenith as a character.  He never undergoes any kind of cliched Damascene epiphany, he just gets smugger, nastier and lazier as the serious goes on - eventually he isn't even a reluctant hero; he's just not a hero at all.
St John was always a brilliant character too - maybe it stretches credibility a little bit to see a (presumably) anarchist hippy become one of Thatcher's lackeys in less than 20 years, but as the MP he becomes he's totally convincing.
I also consider the dialogue of the story to be the most convincing that 2000ad has ever published.  That one frame where the kid pitifully cries that the Lloigor killed his mum is absolutely heartbreaking, even without any prior knowledge of the character speaking.  Better than any 'They killed my parents.  Now they gotta pay' nonsense any day.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Frank on 31 May, 2013, 02:00:23 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 31 May, 2013, 01:41:11 PM
St John was always a brilliant character too - maybe it stretches credibility a little bit to see a (presumably) anarchist hippy become one of Thatcher's lackeys in less than 20 years, but as the MP he becomes he's totally convincing.

It's a well-trodden path.


(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSuL996uPhXMmviWqayHajh5tHLncOVV_8Irvh5_aXaadRuVjSbcg)(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR4Uz3X0M9Tu5dAC_8OZbvK_iBrlmR716mbgupmEHL33NSSwMMq7w)(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQRpP6jX4a-gUREd66sTmTE_SidgzOTULhFBRp1zXQr5ekPW2z5)

Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 31 May, 2013, 07:20:23 PM
Fair point.  Who's the middle chap, though? I have a feeling I'll be appalled at the answer.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Frank on 31 May, 2013, 08:17:48 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 31 May, 2013, 07:20:23 PM
Fair point.  Who's the middle chap, though? I have a feeling I'll be appalled at the answer.

That's understandable; he wasn't your responsibility and I chose the most Syd Barret (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTdCLEh5bXdfzzFNqizsSkzug-pEGz6tPYNGBHZEMu10WUQGbVR)-y image I could find:

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRMS6mQPpFJCO9iCFXJquVPk2zZ4JSPrB3URY-BNHb0OtlgKBR0)

No wonder Thatcher described Blair as her greatest achievement (http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2008/04/making-history.html). When I found out about Anthony's past as a wannabe psych-rocker I became even more impressed with Morrison's abilities as a seer, and that bit where St John's asked to use his powers to get rid of a troublesome political opponent with a heart condition is interesting in light of the way Blair came to lead his party (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/7976017/Tony-Blair-predicted-John-Smiths-early-death.html).

All the free-spirited Love Children (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=c2yQLXTuctA#t=16s) of the sixties and seventies who didn't choke on their own puke had become money-grubbing corporate rockers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1b8AhIsSYQ) by the time I was old enough to realise who they were and where they came from. If you think about it, there's a direct route from the Me Generation's monomaniac pursuit of personal fulfilment to the individualism and self-interest of Reaganomics/Thatcherism.

Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 31 May, 2013, 09:49:09 PM
My word.  As I said, I expected to be appalled, but this was off the scale.  Also, if poor old Syd hadn't lost his way in life, he probably would have ended up privatising things willy-nilly and dying in a closet with an orange in his mouth.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 03 June, 2013, 07:45:02 PM
QuoteStrange how little Zenith actually contibutes though - guess they couldn't sell the Heseltine like St.John as the hero.

I'm going to quote you again here, because I've been thinking about this way too much.  Having given a bit more consideration to the whole thing, I've reached the conclusion that Zenith is pretty much the most important character in the story.  Not because he has any idea as to how to win the day or gives a shite anyway, but because he's pretty much the cause of the whole Lloigor clusterfuck in the first place.

Why? Firstly, because he's the first pure-bred superhuman in history.  He's what the Lloigor have been waiting for in order to take over the universe.  Secondly, because he shags clones of his mother and Ruby and conceives the second pure-bred superhuman.

Zenith, although like all superhumans a larval dark god, may not become a Lloigor, but his son incubates in the black sun to become the most prominent Lloigor of all, Iok Sotot.  It's Iok Sotot who travels back to kickstart the whole Nazi superhuman programme, thus giving rise to superhumans /larval Lloigor, which give birth to Zenith, who gives birth to Iok Sotot, who travels back to Nazi times, and so on in-extra-temporal-finitum.

And all because of Zenith, the irresponsible little motherf-cker.  Almost quite literally, to quote Viz.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Buttonman on 03 June, 2013, 09:16:24 PM
Yeah I agree he's the pivot on which the whole thing turns but for the most part he's a bystander who, like you say, stays true to form with the shagging and bumbling throughout.

I missed the bit about Zenith's kid travelling back to be Iok Sokot is that not like the old paradox about going back in time and killing your grandfather?

Ultimately it would prabably be explained in Phase 10 where all the readers are a fly in amber on St John's desk who watch helplessly as cosmic gods eat their £100 bound editions.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Matt Timson on 03 June, 2013, 10:11:51 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 06 May, 2013, 07:18:59 PM
I have to admit the caption "I am Peyne, or at least part of me is" does lend credence to your interpretation.

My take on it though is that the panel with the words "and I finally see what's it's holding" is a POV shot from St John's own eyes, looking at his own hands holding Chimera.



Hmmm... Except for the fact that it's obviously not a POV shot from St. John's own eyes. Sorry.

I must admit, I've never once even entertained the idea that it might be St. John who's narrating at the end and having just read it again (because you never know), I still don't.

I always assumed that Peyne became a part of Chimera (he mentions being part of something else), rather than just fading away to nothing- but it could just as easily be Peyne's 'spirit' (or whatever it is that Grant thinks happens to the mind after death of the body) narrating the story.

People tie themselves in all sorts of knots over what happens at the end of Phase IV, but it always seemed pretty straightforward to me: Peter St. John asks Chimera for help with Cloud 9/The Horus Group and Chimera obliges by absorbing them (along with Peyne, and Peyne's super-humans). St. John's primary abilities are telepathy and mind control, which is why the others aren't aware of what's happened until it's too late.

Still my favourite 2000ad story, bar none.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Matt Timson on 03 June, 2013, 10:13:12 PM
I might even spend 100 quid on it.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 03 June, 2013, 10:31:31 PM
Quote from: Matt Timson on 03 June, 2013, 10:11:51 PM

Hmmm... Except for the fact that it's obviously not a POV shot from St. John's own eyes. Sorry.

I must admit, I've never once even entertained the idea that it might be St. John who's narrating at the end and having just read it again (because you never know), I still don't.

I always assumed that Peyne became a part of Chimera (he mentions being part of something else), rather than just fading away to nothing- but it could just as easily be Peyne's 'spirit' (or whatever it is that Grant thinks happens to the mind after death of the body) narrating the story.

Why is it obviously not a POV shot?

I don't like either of your alternative explanations, but I guess the former does sort of fit, whereas the latter would just be a bizarre, unnecessary Sunset Blvd tribute.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 03 June, 2013, 10:34:26 PM
Quote from: Buttonman on 03 June, 2013, 09:16:24 PM
I missed the bit about Zenith's kid travelling back to be Iok Sokot is that not like the old paradox about going back in time and killing your grandfather?

It's also suggested that the Lloigor caused themselves to be created by Peyne. Everyone loves a paradox.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost MacRoth on 03 June, 2013, 10:39:33 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 01:20:30 PM

Come to think of it, is that what our universe is?  Jesus, Morrison, you've quite the imagination, for a bald Scotch magic knight.

You believe him to be derived from whiskey? 

Or have you just gotten confused between the SCOTS a nation of people, and SCOTCH an alcoholic beverage? 
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Matt Timson on 03 June, 2013, 10:56:54 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 03 June, 2013, 10:31:31 PM
Quote from: Matt Timson on 03 June, 2013, 10:11:51 PM

Hmmm... Except for the fact that it's obviously not a POV shot from St. John's own eyes. Sorry.

I must admit, I've never once even entertained the idea that it might be St. John who's narrating at the end and having just read it again (because you never know), I still don't.

I always assumed that Peyne became a part of Chimera (he mentions being part of something else), rather than just fading away to nothing- but it could just as easily be Peyne's 'spirit' (or whatever it is that Grant thinks happens to the mind after death of the body) narrating the story.

Why is it obviously not a POV shot?


Because it's not.

Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Matt Timson on 03 June, 2013, 10:57:55 PM
That last pic is a POV shot. Technically, the middle one is as well- but nobody would hold anything like that.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Matt Timson on 03 June, 2013, 11:01:54 PM
Anyway- that aside, it just doesn't read as being St. John to me and never will. To be honest, it makes even less sense to me than the Sunset Boulevard idea.

Sorry.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Link Prime on 03 June, 2013, 11:05:52 PM
I need a double Scots.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost MacRoth on 03 June, 2013, 11:08:38 PM
With Icelandics?

;)
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Link Prime on 03 June, 2013, 11:24:28 PM
And maybe a dash of Canadian Dry!
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Trout on 03 June, 2013, 11:47:09 PM
Yeah, that's not St John's POV. I always read that "voiceover" as being Chimera speaking. I need to re-read the story, though.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Buttonman on 04 June, 2013, 12:15:44 AM
Given that Chimera is evidentially present when that German Lady summons the LLogior to inhabit the Maxi-man twin couldn't they all have been sucked up then, with all the events we witness happening in the bottle world? I don't think there is enough evidence for a definitive answer and that's really the joy of things.

Something else I wondered is whether our alternative ever seen? Obviously we don't have superheroes so Alternitive 220 where Zenith lives can't be us - are we ever given a nod? Only thought of this after my re-read so I wasn't looking for clues.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 04 June, 2013, 01:13:00 AM
Quote from: Ghost MacRoth on 03 June, 2013, 10:39:33 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 06 May, 2013, 01:20:30 PM

Come to think of it, is that what our universe is?  Jesus, Morrison, you've quite the imagination, for a bald Scotch magic knight.

You believe him to be derived from whiskey? 

Or have you just gotten confused between the SCOTS a nation of people, and SCOTCH an alcoholic beverage?

Neither.  I was just winding you up.  Just like Zenith's Scotch agent Eddie was wound up by the same word in Phase 2.
Anyway, I prefer Ireland whiskey.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 04 June, 2013, 07:03:21 AM
Quote from: Matt Timson on 03 June, 2013, 10:56:54 PM

Because it's not.

Ah well. Peyne/Chimera it is then.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: credo on 04 June, 2013, 03:52:23 PM
My take on it has always been that the events in the previous 3 Phases are dependent upon the resolution of Phase 4. So, here goes ...

1. The Lloiger exist outside of space-time, but are trapped in a manner that means they can't interact with the physical realm using their super-magic world-warping power of turning people into fist-heads.
2. That trap is Chimera, so they spend the entirety of their existence (forever, or at least all time at the same time), trying to break out of that trap.
3. Their main method of doing that is by interacting with, and encouraging the development of, superhuman bodies, which can act as hosts for their powers (Pre-Phase 1, Phase 1 and Phase 3).
4. The pyramid in Phase 1 isn't Chimera, but looks like her for some kind of mystical resonance reason that allows the Lloiger to interact with the dormant superhuman body.
5. The alignment of the omnihedron in Phase 3 is the means that will break the Lloiger free of Chimera.
6. The superhumans became the Lloiger in Phase 4 when they were already trapped.

.. and, depending on your notion of pre-determinacy, the big issue.

7. The actions that led to the birth of the Lloiger were all determined by their trapped status, thus ensuring an inescapable chain of events from birth to realisation of trap to failed attempts to break free to birth ... but in some weird parallel multiverse (a parallel of parallels) one of these Lloiger attempts may just work, so perhaps that's what they're looking for.

Oh and I'd definitely say it's Peyne's narration as some kind of restored spiritual part of Chimera (she's the ultimate power remember, not the Lloiger, so his existence is dependent on her, not them).
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 04 June, 2013, 04:53:23 PM
With you all the way there, credo.  Though I've only realised it in the last month. Nice work, Zenith Phase 4:  Blowing my mind twice in with a 22-year gap in between
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Matt Timson on 04 June, 2013, 05:11:29 PM
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 04 June, 2013, 07:03:21 AM
Quote from: Matt Timson on 03 June, 2013, 10:56:54 PM

Because it's not.

Ah well. Peyne/Chimera it is then.

This is the internet- you're doing it wrong. Can I suggest multiple POV photos of yourself handling objects in a clearly painful way, while claiming that this is how you always hold stuff?

;)
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Matt Timson on 04 June, 2013, 05:18:01 PM
Quote from: credo on 04 June, 2013, 03:52:23 PM

4. The pyramid in Phase 1 isn't Chimera, but looks like her for some kind of mystical resonance reason that allows the Lloiger to interact with the dormant superhuman body.


That was my take too- or just a bit of window dressing (like there not being a need for a sacrifice, but making one of Doctor Driesch anyway). Take your pick.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 04 June, 2013, 05:43:03 PM

Quote4. The pyramid in Phase 1 isn't Chimera, but looks like her for some kind of mystical resonance reason that allows the Lloiger to interact with the dormant superhuman body.

Ah yes, apart from this bit.  I think I'll do the internet wrong too and change my mind.  Now that I think of it, I doubt Grant Morrison had the big picture formulated in its entirety when this happened.  I'd love to think it was indeed Chimaera, but I think more would have been made of it if it had would of have had of have been.

But again I say:  Tetrahedral universes aligned would fit together to make an Omnihedral multiverse; which is why Chimaera is a pyramid and makes a nifty paperweight.  He has quite the imagination, that Morrison chap.  Millar never had a look in.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 04 June, 2013, 05:50:22 PM
Chimera, even.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jikan on 15 October, 2013, 11:09:22 AM
Lots of interesting stuff there but one question I've been left scratching my head over is why the alternate Maximan is interested in Zenith? In the interlude story before Phase 3 he has Mantra recount Zenith's life story then tells her he may be their last or only hope (forget which) as the Alignment approaches. In Phase 3, however, Maximan neither meets nor mentions Zenith and Zenith only ever has a peripheral role in things. How could he have been seen as important to either of Maximan's plans (the fake one or the real one)?
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 15 October, 2013, 12:45:48 PM
Excellent question. I guess Alternate Maximan and chums view Zenith as super-powerful because he's the offspring of two super-humans, but they don't get as far as actually doing anything with him to exploit that.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Greg M. on 15 October, 2013, 01:08:36 PM
That interlude's always been an odd one - Morrison evidently hadn't quite decided on the 'word-salad' version of Maximan at that stage, so version there and the one in Phase 3 don't quite tie up.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Daveycandlish on 15 October, 2013, 07:28:02 PM
Quote from: Jikan on 15 October, 2013, 11:09:22 AM
How could he have been seen as important to either of Maximan's plans (the fake one or the real one)?

I can't answer your question, I just wanted to say... cool forum name!  :)
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 15 October, 2013, 09:43:33 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 15 October, 2013, 01:08:36 PM
That interlude's always been an odd one - Morrison evidently hadn't quite decided on the 'word-salad' version of Maximan at that stage, so version there and the one in Phase 3 don't quite tie up.

Maybe he wasn't possessed when he was speaking normally?  Or maybe that makes no sense; it's a while since I read it.

I remember reading Paul Auster's City of Glass years ago, and being delighted to find that one of his characters used exactly the same type of 'word-salad' as Maximan. 
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jikan on 16 October, 2013, 10:25:55 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 15 October, 2013, 09:43:33 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 15 October, 2013, 01:08:36 PM
Maybe he wasn't possessed when he was speaking normally?  Or maybe that makes no sense; it's a while since I read it.

Maybe but when he tells Mantra she's quiet she replies: 'You make me nervous.' I know in Phase 3 she gushes about how powerful and generally ace he is to Zenith and Peter but I wonder if you can also take that interlude comment as her intuiting, on some level, that there's something not right about him?
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jikan on 17 October, 2013, 11:11:27 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 15 October, 2013, 09:43:33 PM
Maybe he wasn't possessed when he was speaking normally?  Or maybe that makes no sense; it's a while since I read it.
That's better - I have the hang of the quote function now! As I said, that's a possibility but when Maximan tells Mantra she doesn't say much she replies: 'You make me nervous.' In Phase 3 she gushes about how powerful and generally ace Maximan is to Zenith and Peter but I wonder if you can also take that interlude comment as her intuiting, on some level, that there's something not right about him?
With some of the other stuff discussed here I think the ambiguity can be the point - that sense of indeterminacy or lack of definite meaning is something powerful that keeps pulling you back. But this issue about Zenith being named as the last/only hope is the one thing that really grated with me given the way Phase 3 then pans out.
I too think the Maximan interlude is an odd one but at the same time it's Grant writing and even if the word-soup version of Maximan hadn't been arrived at he must have had a firm idea of the impending story arc. Is Maximan trying to focus attention on Zenith as a red herring, as he is obviously never going to save the day (which, in the end, Vertex does). How would that aid him? He does ultimately need both alternate Earths to be destroyed.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: vzzbux on 17 October, 2013, 09:25:29 PM
Quote from: Jikan on 15 October, 2013, 11:09:22 AM
Lots of interesting stuff there but one question I've been left scratching my head over is why the alternate Maximan is interested in Zenith? In the interlude story before Phase 3 he has Mantra recount Zenith's life story then tells her he may be their last or only hope (forget which) as the Alignment approaches. In Phase 3, however, Maximan neither meets nor mentions Zenith and Zenith only ever has a peripheral role in things. How could he have been seen as important to either of Maximan's plans (the fake one or the real one)?
You have to remember that Zenith's universe was point Zenith. In the interlude blind Maximan was going through the events of that universe to 93 Mantra, but on the whole was talking of the importance of destroying universe Zenith. Roberts Pesudonym 'Zenith' was just conincidence to point Zenith... I think.
Our universe doesn't contain Super Humans because it holds no importance to the alignment and needs no influence or control, along with many thousands of others.
Definitely need a re-read as it has been ages.



V
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: RaggedMan on 18 October, 2013, 07:01:51 PM
It's been a while since I read the interlude but post Phase III I'd assumed it was some sort of weird misinterpreted future echo. Vertex bringing the bomb and destroying the alternative (we did call spoilers right? sorry if I've just ruined that!) echoing back through time and reaching Maximan as a confused vision of 'Zenith is important'.
Or it was something to do with him fathering Iok Sotot.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: 13school on 03 November, 2013, 09:57:23 AM
I always just assumed it was the equivalent of a movie teaser trailer hyping up what was to come. Saying "Zenith is the most important thing ever!" is a much better way to build excitement for the upcoming Zenith series than "Zenith will play no real part in upcoming events at all!"

If it's not drawn by Steve Yeowell it's not "real" Zenith in my book.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 03 November, 2013, 07:27:03 PM
Quote from: RaggedMan on 18 October, 2013, 07:01:51 PM
Or it was something to do with him fathering Iok Sotot.

That makes sense.  If Maximan is already possessed at this point, Zenith is indeed crucial to Lloigor plans precisely because he spawned Iok Sotot; the first Lloigor to break out of the Chimera universe back at the beginning of Phase 1 and the Dark God who paved the way for the Alignment.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: ted5536 on 04 November, 2013, 09:18:57 PM
Just finished Zenith for the first time and mind was blown, read this thread cleared some stuff up and going in for the second reading. Thought Phase IV was a good way to wrap up the story but defiantly a book that requires multiple readings.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jikan on 12 November, 2013, 10:59:51 AM
Quote from: 13school on 03 November, 2013, 09:57:23 AM
If it's not drawn by Steve Yeowell it's not "real" Zenith in my book.

I agree! The Belardinelli-influenced art on that interlude sits awkwardly amongst Yeowell's pages.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Jikan on 12 November, 2013, 11:05:04 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 03 November, 2013, 07:27:03 PM
That makes sense.  If Maximan is already possessed at this point, Zenith is indeed crucial to Lloigor plans precisely because he spawned Iok Sotot; the first Lloigor to break out of the Chimera universe back at the beginning of Phase 1 and the Dark God who paved the way for the Alignment.
Yes, that definitely rings right. The first pure-bred as opposed to engineered superhuman, who fathered the incredibly powerful Iok Sotot. When Sotot arrives to take on the Masterman twin's body in Phase 1 the doctor does comment about him being much stronger/more powerful (something to this effect) than the Lloigor who had visited her previously.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Colin Zeal on 12 November, 2013, 12:24:32 PM
I'm a bit confused by this talk that Zenith fathered Iok Sotot. I assume it's a reference to the bit in Phase IV where Iok Sotot calls him father. I always assumed that this was just because Iok had possessed the body of Zenith's son. Is this not the case and Zenith somehow really was his father?
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: IndigoPrime on 12 November, 2013, 12:32:21 PM
Zenith shags the clones, one of which gives birth to his son, which becomes/always was Iol Sotot (who's also powerful but dim, thereby rather taking after his father).
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Colin Zeal on 12 November, 2013, 03:10:11 PM
But isn't Zenith's son just the shell used by Iok Sotot to manifest himself on this plane? Such as the Masterman body was during WWII? I thought I understood all of this but maybe not.

just to add: that's basically the same question I asked previously isn't it? so is this down to the Many-angled ones existing outside of normal time and space? So iok Sotot can be thousands of years old and also meet his father in Phase 1 before he is born sometime between Phase II and Phase IV?
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Dandontdare on 12 November, 2013, 03:46:41 PM
I must dig out my old progs for a re-read - this story seems to be far more complicated than I remember it being!
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: IndigoPrime on 12 November, 2013, 04:19:28 PM
Quote from: Colin Zeal on 12 November, 2013, 03:10:11 PMBut isn't Zenith's son just the shell used by Iok Sotot to manifest himself on this plane? Such as the Masterman body was during WWII? I thought I understood all of this but maybe not.
Maybe. It's been a long time since I read Zenith; however, I seem to recall the superhumans 'gestating'/'ascending' in Phase IV and becoming everywhen at that point.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 13 November, 2013, 10:32:16 AM
Quote from: Colin Zeal on 12 November, 2013, 03:10:11 PM
But isn't Zenith's son just the shell used by Iok Sotot to manifest himself on this plane? Such as the Masterman body was during WWII?

No.  Though He may not have been given that name, Zenith's son was Iok Sotot from the minute he was conceived; just as every other superhuman was a larval Lloigor.  The Black Sun was where they gestated into their horrific mature forms.  Zenith and St John simply chose not to gestate (and I don't blame them), and therefore remained in their larval forms.

Fully mature Lloigor, such as Iok Sotot and whatever it was Lux and Ruby turned into, could travel through time and space to possess superhumans, but this was unconnected to the fact that all superhumans were essentially ungestated Lloigor, whether they were aware of the fact or not.

Here's my earlier post on it, cobbled together from the opinions of someone on another message board who is clearly as unhealthily obsessed with Zenith as I am:

http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php/topic,38501.msg760692.html#msg760692


Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: AlexF on 13 November, 2013, 01:59:04 PM
I've just finished reading the £100 giant and have to get my thoughts out – this thread seemed as good a place as any! Whopping great post coming up here, be warned...

It's probably the second or third time I've read the series (only read it in the progs before, and never all in one go). As evidenced by this 6-page thread, it's a pretty complex story and while it felt satisfying I'm damned if I could explain what's going on in it. And frankly this helps with my enjoyment a lot - if it made sense, I doubt it'd reward so many re-readings. I certainly didn't pick up on Chimera being a person, let alone specifically female, or on notice anything about time-travelling Lloigor being trapped in a loop of failure – something to look forward to next time I have a read!

As a youngster reading the Prog I hated Zenith, to the point that I gave up on Phase I around the time Red Dragon dies, and didn't read phases II or III. By the time Phase IV rolled around I was a bit older (I'd have been 14) and I actually quite enjoyed it, even though I had no clue about the wider story. I especially liked the chapters with Peyne ageing backwards. Sure, that trick had been done before but I thought Morrison's version of it was compelling. I think part of my initial reluctance to read was that Yeowell's art, great throughout, felt very grown up at the time, and not something I was drawn to as a 10 year old; (curiously I'd rate him as one of the more child-friendly 2000AD artists of today.)

Later re-reads didn't help much, although I did come to rate Phase II for actually being a nice little self-contained story that is easy to understand without being empty of content. Phase III always frustrated the hell out of me, until a couple of years ago when someone somewhere made the point that it was Morrison's take on 'Crisis on Infinite Earths', a series I've still not actually read. I understand it's many people's favourite, but frankly they're all wrong. (I'd agree Yeowell's art is at its experimental peak in phase III, though)

Basically, I have always been frustrated that Zenith, the series, was never, as young me wanted it to be, a story about a superhero who just wanted to be a popstar. I always loved the first episodes of each phase, and indeed tolerated most of zzzzenith.com, in which the boorish popstar angle is at its most prominent, and in which we get to see Yeowell's spot-on reinventions and subtle ageing of his lead. Eddie MacPhail is a great character, too.

So, on this latest read of the whole thing in one go, I approached the strip as a long-form tale about many-angled dark gods and superhumans in general, not Zenith in particular, which certainly helped me to enjoy it more, although I'm still sad there were never any one-off tales about Zenith doing his thing as a popstar first and incidental superhero second. I was very surprised to note how fluidly the whole thing read – Morrison seems to have written it as a continuous story, although he does a decent job on the whole of creating neat 5-6 page chunks.

I had hoped that reading Phase III in one go (never attempted before what with all the Progs being scattered) would make me see its value but no, it was still pretty tedious – I'd have liked to know what it was that made some superhumans choose to turn bad while others stayed good, if indeed there was any logic to it at all. I'm also generally unsatisfied by superhuman fights that revolve around the winner just being stronger/more powerful/a better telepath (classic Mark Millar traits all), rather than there being some kind of outsmarting or hitherto unguessed application of a power – problems that affect Phases I and III more than the others.

For what it's worth, I'm of the belief that the ending of Phase IV, where Peter St John's (side note, do you say 'Saint John' or 'Sinjon' when you read it?) eyes go white, is purely generic convention – you know, did the evil creatures really win in the end or not – there is no true answer, just what answer you want there to be, or, in fact, no answer at all. (see also Inception, and indeed any film set in dream world, where the only possible way to end is on an uncertainty – is it still a dream, or is it reality?)

Ultimately, my hat is off, at long last, to Morrison and Yeowell's Zenith, a satisfying puzzle with no solution and therefore all the more shelf-life.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: IndigoPrime on 13 November, 2013, 03:37:11 PM
QuoteI'd have liked to know what it was that made some superhumans choose to turn bad while others stayed good, if indeed there was any logic to it at all.
Weren't most of the ones who turned bad possessed, and those that weren't just aching for the promises of power?
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: TordelBack on 13 November, 2013, 07:48:50 PM
Zenith speculation/interpretation is the spinechat or shelfporn of actually reading comics: always welcome, always fascinating.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Cactus on 13 November, 2013, 08:21:51 PM
I've just read this whole thread and the one JBC linked to in an *ahem* enhanced state of mind, with the collected edition to hand, and I think I need to have a little lie down.

It's a bloody brilliant comic though.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 13 November, 2013, 09:38:53 PM
QuoteI'm still sad there were never any one-off tales about Zenith doing his thing as a popstar first and incidental superhero second

I know what you mean; though there were quite a few drunken pop-brat related bits in Phases 1 and 4 (talking on the South Bank show about his switch to decent rave-inspired indie, shagging Naomi Campbell and apparently partying with Robert Smith, for example), and there was also one of the 2000ad specials that showed him partying with a host of other celebrities.  And there was some other actual music magazine (linked to in this thread?) that had a proper, pop-mag style interview with the obnoxious little twit.

QuoteI'd have liked to know what it was that made some superhumans choose to turn bad while others stayed good
Most definitely possession by Lloigor.  On the other hand there were a few shady things of a different nature going on behind the scenes in David Cambridge, Penelope Moon and Ruby Fox's cases; I see that as their preparing to put the Plan into place; and slowly beginning to realise how in order to do so, they themselves would soon pupate into the very same dark gods they were fighting.

QuoteI'm also generally unsatisfied by superhuman fights that revolve around the winner just being stronger/more powerful/a better telepath (classic Mark Millar traits all), rather than there being some kind of outsmarting or hitherto unguessed application of a power – problems that affect Phases I and III more than the others.

Not sure that can apply to Phase 1 - while it's not quite Watchmen-like in its intricacy (sorry, Grant), there was the nice little touch of Saint John implanting the telepathic switch in Masterman's mind in the Houses of Parliament, which was only revealed in the final stages of the fight against Iok Sotot.  It's not as complex as later Phases and I don't think the whole Zenith universe (multiverse?) was quite fleshed out in its entirety at that point, but the only real problem I had with it is that Grant Morrison depicted drunk characters while seeming to have no idea of how drunk people behave - though apparently he started getting pissed a lot in his thirties, so fair play to him for putting in the research.

Quoteside note, do you say 'Saint John' or 'Sinjon' when you read it?
Always the former - at the time, Greavesie's co-host was my only point of reference.

QuoteI've just read this whole thread and the one JBC linked to in an *ahem* enhanced state of mind,

Though I'm getting a bit too old myself for such enhanced states of mind and very rarely dabble in anything of the sort, I've always meant to read The Invisibles under the influence of something mind-altering.  I love Grant Morrison's stuff but I think I missed something there; seems like everyone gets it but me. 


Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: hippynumber1 on 14 November, 2013, 08:33:29 AM
All you need to do in order to 'get' The Invisibles is insert your head as far up your own arse as possible! I enjoyed a lot of it but, by Grud, there's a lot of pretentious wank in there!
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 14 November, 2013, 09:12:41 AM
Quote from: hippynumber1 on 14 November, 2013, 08:33:29 AM
All you need to do in order to 'get' The Invisibles is insert your head as far up your own arse as possible! I enjoyed a lot of it but, by Grud, there's a lot of pretentious wank in there!

Ha!  My flatmate claims he experienced some profound changes in his life while reading The Invisibles.  Maybe he grew an extra few vertebrae, as you suggest
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Link Prime on 14 November, 2013, 11:09:14 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 14 November, 2013, 09:12:41 AM
Quote from: hippynumber1 on 14 November, 2013, 08:33:29 AM
All you need to do in order to 'get' The Invisibles is insert your head as far up your own arse as possible! I enjoyed a lot of it but, by Grud, there's a lot of pretentious wank in there!

Ha!  My flatmate claims he experienced some profound changes in his life while reading The Invisibles.  Maybe he grew an extra few vertebrae, as you suggest

Sometime on the late 90's I was walking out of Sub City (a Dublin based comic shop) with my monthly haul of funnybooks, including a couple issues of The Invisibles.
I was followed out the door by wannabe-Neo plank in a full length leather jacket, who started asking me questions along the lines of "Is there a reason you're reading that?"
And yes, he had the plain white badge on his jacket.

Embarrassed for both of us I simply smirked and got the hell out of there.
Wasn't your flat-mate by any chance Jayzus????

Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 14 November, 2013, 12:21:41 PM
Funnily enough I recently read the first three Invisibles TPBs for the first time and reviewed them on the most rrecent page of the '...what are you reading?' thread. It is a bit pretentious, innit?
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 14 November, 2013, 04:56:38 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 14 November, 2013, 11:09:14 AM
I was followed out the door by wannabe-Neo plank in a full length leather jacket, who started asking me questions along the lines of "Is there a reason you're reading that?"
And yes, he had the plain white badge on his jacket.

Embarrassed for both of us I simply smirked and got the hell out of there.
Wasn't your flat-mate by any chance Jayzus????

Haha!  I doubt it; it doesn't quite fit his description.  That said, it kind of fits the description of pretty much everyone else that goes into any comic shop in Dublin...
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Link Prime on 17 November, 2013, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 14 November, 2013, 04:56:38 PM
That said, it kind of fits the description of pretty much everyone else that goes into any comic shop in Dublin...

A few less pony-tails these days!
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: TordelBack on 17 November, 2013, 02:29:33 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 17 November, 2013, 12:49:31 PM
A few less pony-tails these days!

Recession's good for something.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 18 November, 2013, 01:30:18 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 November, 2013, 02:29:33 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 17 November, 2013, 12:49:31 PM
A few less pony-tails these days!

Recession's good for something.

I like to think of my 'do as a samurai topknot.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Link Prime on 18 November, 2013, 10:27:02 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 18 November, 2013, 01:30:18 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 November, 2013, 02:29:33 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 17 November, 2013, 12:49:31 PM
A few less pony-tails these days!

Recession's good for something.

I like to think of my 'do as a samurai topknot.

Well you're alright Jayzus.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 18 November, 2013, 01:16:15 PM
On the other hand I have exactly two hairs on my chest.  I have the chestal equivalent of Homer Simpson's head.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 18 November, 2013, 06:54:52 PM
Veering back to the topic - did anybody else cop that Eddie McPhail was gay?  Grant Morrison confirms it in Supergods.  If so, how did you realise that?  I certainly didn't.  I've heard it said that he was camp but even while rereading it as an adult it never occurred to me. 

Would that have made him the first gay character in 2000ad?  Though there was some actor guy in Strontium Dog:  Rage whose homosexuality was at least heavily alluded to.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Greg M. on 18 November, 2013, 07:13:55 PM
It was always pretty implicit - Phaedra calls him an 'old Scotch fairy' in Phase II, to which Eddie only gets offended by her use of 'Scotch' instead of 'Scottish'. Similarly, Zenith makes a few comments to him that indicate Eddie's sexuality is no secret. Eddie himself confirms it in zzzzenith.com when he claims he's "just about turned straight with boredom" waiting for Zenith to show up. I love Eddie - he gets almost all the best lines in the series.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 18 November, 2013, 07:39:22 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 18 November, 2013, 07:13:55 PM
It was always pretty implicit - Phaedra calls him an 'old Scotch fairy' in Phase II, to which Eddie only gets offended by her use of 'Scotch' instead of 'Scottish'. Similarly, Zenith makes a few comments to him that indicate Eddie's sexuality is no secret. Eddie himself confirms it in zzzzenith.com when he claims he's "just about turned straight with boredom" waiting for Zenith to show up. I love Eddie - he gets almost all the best lines in the series.

Me too; he's a legend.  'Away and make friends with the toaster or something.'

I thought the 'turned straight' thing was some Scottish expression I wasn't familiar with; I didn't know he actually meant 'turned hetero'. 
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Greg M. on 18 November, 2013, 07:58:59 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 18 November, 2013, 07:39:22 PM

I thought the 'turned straight' thing was some Scottish expression I wasn't familiar with; I didn't know he actually meant 'turned hetero'.

It's certainly possible - I'm an Aberdonian, and hence not so familiar with all the Glasgow patter used by Central Belters like MacPhail and Morrison - but I certainly read it as the above.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: AlexF on 19 November, 2013, 11:35:45 AM
I definitely got the vibe that MacPhail was gay - although I recall having a basic assumption that unless explicitly told otherwise, any and all characters written by Morrison, Smith and Milligan (aka 2000 AD's second wave) were gay. Where I got this assumption from I've no idea; probably a combination of young me being a)prone to stereotyping what it meant to be gay and b) desperately wanting 2000 AD to be hip enough to have gay characters in without having to make it a big deal. (Which I actually think they have a pretty decent track record of)

I don't know if it's come up on another thread, but does anyone read comics analysis site Sequart? Colin Smith is currently trashing his way through Mark Millar's 2000AD output, making the point that the poor man tries so hard to be anti-homophobic that he comes across as a raging homophobe.

Another contributor Tim Callahan ran a pretty exhausting but fascinating series on Zenith (and other early Morrison) a few years back. I believe it's since been published as a book, although I've never seen a copy.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 19 November, 2013, 05:46:21 PM
QuoteColin Smith is currently trashing his way through Mark Millar's 2000AD output, making the point that the poor man tries so hard to be anti-homophobic that he comes across as a raging homophobe.


The only instance I can think of is Big Dave, and you'd want to be pretty thick not to see that the writers were knocking homophobes rather than gays.  There was Ducky the camp insect in Robohunter too I suppose, but all pretty harmless as far as I could see. 
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: AlexF on 20 November, 2013, 11:32:59 AM
Yeah, I think Smith sometimes wades so deep into his analysis that he forgets to take a step back and remember the context of who is/was actually reading 2000AD and how they respond to the strips within. Millar may be hamfisted in much of his scrpting, especially when it comes to his attempts at satire, but I can't believe many readers came away from his Robohunter or Big Dave thinking 'yes, aren't gay stereotypes hilarious'; mostly they;'d have been thinking, 'gosh, this isn't at all funny, but it's clearly trying to be funny'. (To be fair, about 30% of Big Dave is actually funny, a lot of it down to Parkhouse.)
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 20 November, 2013, 03:26:28 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 20 November, 2013, 11:32:59 AM(To be fair, about 30% of Big Dave is actually funny, a lot of it down to Parkhouse.)

I thought a lot of it was funny, and it got a few of my Viz-reading friends into 2000ad at the time.  It was breath-takingly tasteless and even disturbing in places, but I genuinely found it funny.  It helped to have mates who'd look at it with me and share the laughs, of course.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: Frank on 03 October, 2017, 08:44:33 PM

Eddie was clearly based on Eddie Clockerty (clue's in the name), the manager of the band in John Byrne's BBC Scotland six part comedy drama, Tutti Frutti*. Richard Wilson played Clockerty as camp and prissy, but I can't remember whether his sexuality was a plot point.

As well as Victor Meldrew, the adaptation featured the star of BBC Scotland's ill starred Bogie Man adaptation and the warden of Aspen prison:

https://youtu.be/zUfyErRU9ro


Regarding the Lloigor/Chimera, everything inside Chimera is Chimera, so the shift from Peyne's narration to Chimera's narration is really only a switch from Chimera experiencing itself as Peyne** to Chimera experiencing itself without a focalising identity.

Phase IV makes it clear that the black sun is a gateway that allows the Lloigor to 'reunite with their primal selves'. While the Lloigor are humans from the late twentieth century, I think they're also just ideas - like Jungian archetypes - that have always existed and always will, outside time and space.

Though they manifest inside Chimera as 'pure being', I don't think their 'primal selves' are any more trapped inside Chimera than Iok Sotot was trapped on Earth when he possessed Maximan. I think their 'primal selves' are still out there in over space.


* It doesn't seem well known in the rest of the country, but everyone in late eighties Scotland thought it was fucking brilliant that we'd managed to make some telly that wasn't Thingummyjig or Take The High Road.

** In the same way the Judeo-Christian deity, Jehova, used a Nazarean carpenter as a focalising point  to experience itself from within.
Title: Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 03 October, 2017, 08:59:47 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 13 November, 2013, 09:38:53 PM
QuoteI've just read this whole thread and the one JBC linked to in an *ahem* enhanced state of mind,

Though I'm getting a bit too old myself for such enhanced states of mind and very rarely dabble in anything of the sort,

God almighty, some things have changed since then