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Science is Drokking Fantastic Because...

Started by The Legendary Shark, 21 July, 2011, 11:05:57 PM

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TordelBack

Quote from: bikini kill on 12 August, 2012, 02:08:26 PMWhen they're applying their understanding of game theory and the copula function to create collateralized debt obligations and credit default swaps, it's a different kind of matter entirely- and one with much greater gravity.

Le mot juste!

TordelBack

Quote from: pops1983 on 06 August, 2012, 11:53:53 AMWhat do they think they're doing giving money to intelligent people? This money could have been spent on banking bonuses, or making another reality TV show.

The realisation that Curiosity cost less than the amount of dosh the RoI citizenry are probably going to have to stump up just to cover the gambling debts of insurance conman Sean Quinn makes me sick to my stomach.  We could have sent a robot to Mars, you worthless motherfucking asshole.

Definitely Not Mister Pops

True Colour images of Saturn from the Cassini Spacecraft

The images are high def and much too big to be posted here, so follow the above link. Look at the first one; add 2 eyes and it looks like a sad clown
You may quote me on that.

Mikey

Lush!

But back to Dark Matter-it might not be directly measureable but it's effects are there in yer sums,so arguably it's detectable. Or is that daft?

M
To tell the truth, you can all get screwed.

O Lucky Stevie!

#304
Arguably the most momentous event in the history of our species

Voyager 1 crosses into interstellar space
"We'll send all these nasty words to Aunt Jane. Don't you think that would be fun?"

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: Mikey on 01 September, 2012, 08:47:42 AM
But back to Dark Matter-it might not be directly measureable but it's effects are there in yer sums,so arguably it's detectable. Or is that daft?

Well, yes and no. Basically, there is a theoretical model for how the universe should behave if we understand things like gravity correctly. Except that the universe is not expanding at the rate or in the manner that the model predicts, leaving two possibilities:

1) 80% of the matter in the universe is unaccounted for.

2) The theory is, in some way, flawed.

If you assume that there is something out there that has mass but cannot be seen or otherwise detected, and that it makes up about 80% of the matter in the universe then —lo and behold!— the sums work again. There is, as I understand it, no direct evidence for the existence of dark matter beyond the fact that it must exist if the model is correct.

Start from the other end (remember that science should always be about developing theories that explain the results, not modifying results to fit the theory) and dark matter, to my (admittedly unqualified) mind looks like a fudge.

Given that (again, to my limited understanding) we don't even understand exactly how gravity propagates, this insistence that our model for universal expansion must be correct seems antithetical to the most fundamental principles of science.

(Note, however, that I am prepared to consider the possibility that I am just not clever enough to understand this issue properly.)

Cheers

Jim
Stupidly Busy Letterer: Samples. | Blog
Less-Awesome-Artist: Scribbles.

Mikey

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 10 September, 2012, 08:17:20 AM
Start from the other end (remember that science should always be about developing theories that explain the results, not modifying results to fit the theory) and dark matter, to my (admittedly unqualified) mind looks like a fudge.

I'd say it's more than acceptable to start with a theory then test it! If the results then test the theory the theory is modified etc. As far as I understand it the theories haven't been busted yet as there's no way, as you point out, to observe the stuff but some of the theory which is right about other stuff can accomodate it.

This is all, quite literally, Space Maths so it's well beyond my ken and makes my head hurt a bit. I tried this here and it didn't help.

M.
To tell the truth, you can all get screwed.

NapalmKev

Science is Drokking fantastic because... It disproves a lot of Religious Hokem.

:)
"Where once you fought to stop the trap from closing...Now you lay the bait!"

Definitely Not Mister Pops

Quote from: NapalmKev on 10 September, 2012, 02:51:19 PM
Science is Drokking fantastic because... It disproves a lot of Religious Hokem.

:)

I don't want to get into this, I'll just say that science should be a tool to improve your understanding of the world around you. It's not a tool for attacking others beliefs.

As for the whole dark matter debate, I might weigh into this when I get home to a proper keyboard, and don't have to type my long boring response into my tiny intelligent phone machine with my big clumsy cartoon fingers.
You may quote me on that.

NapalmKev

Quote from: pops1983 on 10 September, 2012, 04:04:49 PM
Quote from: NapalmKev on 10 September, 2012, 02:51:19 PM
Science is Drokking fantastic because... It disproves a lot of Religious Hokem.

:)

I don't want to get into this, I'll just say that science should be a tool to improve your understanding of the world around you. It's not a tool for attacking others beliefs.




I probably sounded a bit glib, but it's not an attack. You're all talking about science-how much further do you the Human race would be now if for instance: The Christians didn't destroy knowledge in the Dark Ages; (this is not an attack on Christians it's an observation).   :)
"Where once you fought to stop the trap from closing...Now you lay the bait!"

NapalmKev

Science used to be fantastic until it became corporate controlled. Genetics have become patented/trademarked, all good automotive ideas have been bought and hidden away, and every discovery seems to come hand in hand with profiteering and keeping the general public in the dark.

Science used to be Drokking fantastic-a lot of it now seems like stomm!

You don't have to agree of course but then you also don't need to comment on what I've said.

Peace to all!  ;)
"Where once you fought to stop the trap from closing...Now you lay the bait!"

Mikey

Quote from: pops1983 on 10 September, 2012, 04:04:49 PM
As for the whole dark matter debate, I might weigh into this when I get home to a proper keyboard, and don't have to type my long boring response into my tiny intelligent phone machine with my big clumsy cartoon fingers.

Hurray!

Quote from: NapalmKev on 10 September, 2012, 04:56:11 PM
Science used to be Drokking fantastic-a lot of it now seems like stomm!

You should start a thread. It'd be great.

M.
To tell the truth, you can all get screwed.

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: pops1983 on 10 September, 2012, 04:04:49 PM
As for the whole dark matter debate, I might weigh into this when I get home to a proper keyboard, and don't have to type my long boring response into my tiny intelligent phone machine with my big clumsy cartoon fingers.

I very much look forward to it.*

Cheers

Jim

*Not sarcasm.
Stupidly Busy Letterer: Samples. | Blog
Less-Awesome-Artist: Scribbles.

Definitely Not Mister Pops

Okay, I've got a proper keyboard now. A touch screen just doesn't have the tactile definition of a good old fashioned keyboard. Ye have to look at a touch screen to find at where the buttons are.

Quote from: Mikey on 10 September, 2012, 02:02:09 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 10 September, 2012, 08:17:20 AM
Start from the other end (remember that science should always be about developing theories that explain the results, not modifying results to fit the theory) and dark matter, to my (admittedly unqualified) mind looks like a fudge.

I'd say it's more than acceptable to start with a theory then test it! If the results then test the theory the theory is modified etc.

I think the word you're looking for is Hypothesis. The whole dark matter idea is, just that at the minute, an idea. A hypothesis that needs testing. And the difficulty with testing an idea like dark matter, is that you, by definition, can't see it. It doesn't interact with light, with the entire spectrum, at all. And the electromagnetic spectrum is all we have to probe the far reaches of the universe. Apparently Dark Matter only interacts with gravity.

Conceptually, the whole thing is incredibly fantastical. We've evolved the ability to collect process the insanely complex arrangements of photons that gather in the backs of our eyeballs. Granted we can only deal with a small section of the electromagnetic spectrum, but the fact that we can do it at all is astounding.

But when it comes to gravity, we're pretty much in the dark (ZING). We haven't evolved to process gravity to the same level of complexity. We have what? A sense of balance and a healthy respect hor heights? If we want to know how much mass something has, we need to pick it up and weigh it, or use either Newtonian Mechanics or Einstein's General Relativity. Basically, we need to use maths.

When we see things, we give names to the colours, describe them as big or small. We we hear things, they're loud or soft, harmonic or droning. things we touch can also be hard and soft. For things our 5 basic senses can process, we use adjectives. For everything else there's maths. Have you ever been in an MRI machine? Maths tells us that they produce a magnetic field several orders of magnitude greater than the magnetic  field of the entire fucking planet. You won't notice though, your body has no way of telling you.

The long and the short of it is, if Dark matter is out there, it's going to be a bitch to find. Fortunately some very clever men think they know what to look for. Their idea accepts Einstein's Theory of Relativity, and it's two basic postulates:

1)The speed of light in a vacuum is a universal constant.
2)The laws of physics will behave the same in every relative frame of reference
(I know science me)

Actually screw this, the whole things free from the Gutenberg Project, here:http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5001, go read that.

You read it? Good. Now you understand that gravity doesn't bend light, as is often mis-reported, but gravity bends space, and the light travelling in that space appears bent.

So if you're looking for Dark Matter, even though it doesn't interact with light, it bends the space through which the light is travelling. It's called Gravitational Lensing. Google it. There have been some tantalizing observations, but as is always the case with astro-physics, we need bigger and better telescopes.

So at the minute, the best we can hope to do is to prove that dark matter is (or isn't) there. We're in no real position to comment on its nature. Would it be just one type of non-baryonic particle, or a whole series of them with their own periodic table of Dark Matter elements.

There are other ideas, ideas that slightly modify or completely reject Einstein, but I think Dark Matter gets the lions share of mainstream coverage because it sounds sexy. For a science term I mean.

That's how I see it anyway.

Also, HAPPY BIRTHDAY STAR TREK

You may quote me on that.

Mikey

Cheers pops-that's really helpful. And yes,I should have said hypothesis...

M
To tell the truth, you can all get screwed.