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Messages - radiator

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Film & TV / Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« on: 20 May, 2019, 10:32:28 pm »
(The Mad King) wasn't just 'genetically evil' because he was a Targaryen

"Every time a Targaryen is born, the world holds its breath and the gods toss a coin."

I get that, but I still think the execution was overly simplistic - as I said before it's like they just flipped a switch. I also think conceptually it's far more interesting having a character wrestle with these kind of impulses and their family legacy than just turn cartoonishly evil on a dime. We already have two other awful Targaryens (Viserys and Aerys) in the story to reflect the dark side of the Targaryen bloodline. Dany turning evil seemed too predictable to be predictable if that makes any sense (probably not :lol:)?

I dunno, it is what it is, but I'm even more rabidly curious to read Winds of Winter now to see what Martin does with Dany.

Second half didn't make much sense. It's not plausible that the Dothraki and Unsullied would meekly accept the verdict of the Westerosi, especially the regicide's own family.

There were so many nagging things like that that just have to be ignored, as we'll never get answers. How can a Stark be king of the realm given that his homeland just seceded from it? Why is there still a Night's Watch? Weren't the Ironborn promised sovereignty? How is Sam Grandmaester when he hasn't even completed his basic maester training? Etc etc.

Film & TV / Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« on: 20 May, 2019, 10:03:04 pm »
Most impressive moment of that episode: stabbing anyone with that ruddy great sword while kissing them. Jon is quite the acrobat.

It was a dagger. He gave his sword to the Unsullied.

Film & TV / Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« on: 20 May, 2019, 09:18:20 pm »
Something else just struck me: the people who say this is completely out of character for Daenerys haven't been paying attention.  Her potential ruthlessness and megalomania has been brewing for a long time.  Her father was a psychopath too.  I just can't see how people missed it.

Can you really not see how there's a fairly sizable logical jump to go from 'potential ruthlessness' to slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children? Its the extreme level of her actions that people have taken issue with, apparently including the actor who plays the character. As for the Mad King, I guess my interpretation is that during his reign he had suffered a long, slow descent into paranoid schizophrenia and wasn't just 'genetically evil' because he was a Targaryen.

As for the finale, It was about as good as I could have hoped given how much I disliked the general direction of the season as a whole. It had some truly outstanding visuals (drogon emerging from the snow, Dany framed by the dragon wings) and it's nice that they at least acknowledged the existence of other houses like the Arryns, Tullys and Martells - one of my main complaints the last season or two is how empty the world has felt relative to the early seasons. I was almost certain we'd never get any more scenes featuring non Stark or Targaryen characters.

I found the first half hour completely devoid of tension given that there was never any doubt (to me, at least) as to which way Jon would go re: Dany. However Jon subsequently going into exile beyond the wall was a great ending for him - a neat inversion of the opening scene of the pilot - life going out into the cold vs death coming out of it. It felt logical, poetic and bittersweet in a way that a lot of the other resolutions didn't.

Film & TV / Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« on: 17 May, 2019, 06:53:25 pm »
Can neither confirm nor deny

Film & TV / Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« on: 17 May, 2019, 05:52:05 pm »
Well disclaimer, I haven't read the books, but GRRM's story will have exactly the same problems to solve as the TV show-runners, i.e. how to smash all these massive armies together in any way that is satisfying on a character level? I plan to read the books when they're all done, so I look forward to discovering his solution. :)

I have a feeling that if it was easy, it wouldn't have taken him eight years (and counting) to write a book (or books) wrapping it all up. The TV producers didn't have the luxury of saying "it'll be ready when it's ready".

I've probably mentioned this already but the delay has taken so long that I've had to go to my happy place of assuming that he'll never publish another GOT book.  He'll die or go senile or just never break through the writer's block.  (Man, my happy place is pretty depressing.)

Yeah. I'd say that there's a 50/50 chance we get Winds, but I'm going with the assumption that Dream will never see the light of day. Tbh with all of the dangling plot threads and sheer number of POV characters I seriously doubt two books would be enough to wrap it all up. My worry is that now the TV show has given away a lot of the ending he's lost his mojo.

I also heard a rumour that Winds was pretty much done and ready for publication a few years back, but that he wasn't happy with it so scrapped much of it and has been rewriting it ever since.

I guess a writer has to follow his muse, but I can't understand why he's wasting time on things like Fire & Blood. I'm a huge ASoIaF nerd, and even I couldn't get through that.

Film & TV / Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« on: 17 May, 2019, 05:02:10 pm »
I can't justify the expense - especially when you factor in what the entire series would cost - but holy shit this is just gorgeous:


Film & TV / Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« on: 17 May, 2019, 12:47:30 am »
The writers might not have the source material anymore, but they have George's notes and surely they seek his input especially for anything major.

I could be wrong, but the way I understand it is that Martin has had very little to do with the show in recent years (as opposed to the first 4 seasons when he would contribute scripts and presumably spend time in the writers room), and as far as I know his last direct input was a meeting with the show writers 5-6 years ago where he basically gave them a list of loose plot points that make up the ending. Remember that he hasn't actually finished the 6th book in the series yet, so probably only has a relatively loose sketch of how all of the climactic events fit together himself.

I'm guessing that one of the points on that list was 'Danaerys destroys King's Landing', and the last episode was the show writers own interpretation of that. I'm still very much of the opinion that the circumstances of that event in the books will be drastically different to how it goes down in the TV show - likewise with Stannis burning Shireen.

Film & TV / Re: Current TV Boxset Addiction
« on: 16 May, 2019, 05:36:27 pm »
There's an episode midway through season 2 (directed by Hader himself) that is essentially a single location short film that plays out in real time. It's outstandingly good.

Film & TV / Re: Current TV Boxset Addiction
« on: 16 May, 2019, 05:35:13 pm »
The cast are all excellent - Bill Hader, as well as being incredibly funny has serious dramatic chops. The actress who plays Sally is amazing - I gather she doesn't have a lot of screen credits but is a big deal serious stage actress, and it shows. Winkler is great, and Stephen Root is brilliant as ever.

But the clear standout is the guy who plays Hank - never seen him in anything before, but he's one of the most naturally funny performers and characters I've seen in recent years. Almsot everything he says is instantly quotable.

Film & TV / Re: Current TV Boxset Addiction
« on: 16 May, 2019, 01:35:18 am »
BARRY with Bill Hader as a hitman in Hollywood is excellent!

Yep - mentioned this a few pages back. Season 2 is even better.

Off Topic / Re: The awfulness of youtube
« on: 15 May, 2019, 06:52:18 pm »
Youtube video thumbnails are absolutely hilarious. It beats the hell out of me why someone would be more likely to click on, say, a review of a digital camera if the thumbnail is of a guy holding up said camera and gurning in a comically over the top way, but here we are.

Film & TV / Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« on: 14 May, 2019, 07:24:10 pm »
The brutal killing of the innocent non-combatants happens all the time in modern warfare, and so since GoT parallel's our world it shows that grim ugly truth in no uncertain terms.

Well firstly, the show has already made that point pretty bloody thoroughly by now, wouldn't you say? And as I said before, there’s a world of difference between collateral damage and deliberate slaughter. This was the latter, which is why it was so wildly out of character, despite what anyone says.

I never saw her as a benevolent force nor someone who was inherently good. I suspect that aspect has really shocked people, who assumed things would be more black and white (and have somehow forgotten all the shit she’s already done).

To me, the whole retroactive ’Dany was always crazy’ slogan that’s doing the rounds is bunkum, and I think it’s a mistake to judge the actions of characters by modern moral standards when they are operating in a quasi-medieval feudal society. Dany has wielded political violence (as anyone in her position needs to, given the circumstances), and she’s made mistakes for sure, but she has also (mostly) been acting as a force for good in the world and is by and large a protector of the oppressed. I’m curious whether you apply the same moral judgement to Jon, or Ned, or Robb, all three of whom have executed people for breaking oaths, or simply for refusing to obey their orders… What makes their authority or dispensing of justice more legitimate than Dany’s?

I’ve also never seen Dany through the lens of ‘black/white or good/evil’. Many characters in the series do terrible things for noble reasons and vice/versa. If anything, my issue is with the show is precisely for having a rather binary mindset, as evidenced by flipping Dany’s ‘evil’ setting to ‘on’ in an incredibly jarring way. Do I think Dany's relentless pursuit of power will ultimately result in disaster in the books? Yes. Do I think she will suddenly flip to being a psychopathic mass murderer because she gets a bit upset? No. Never.

A key part of Game of Thrones appeal to me is that it feels like a real world.  Heroes die ignobly. Villains carry out atrocities but then gain our sympathy.  We follow power hungry egomaniacs and feel betrayed when we realize what they are.  Innocents die.  It's not a neat Hero's Quest.

Agreed, however the TV show has a nihilistic streak to it that the books do not have, and that nihilism has now completely overtaken the narrative. I, like millions of others, love these characters., and I want more from an ending to their respective stories than just speculating on which of them will kill the other. And that’s pretty much all the show has been reduced to now… My worry is without the romanticism and idealism of the books, you’re left with nothing to balance out the bleakness and cynicism, and if so, what was actually the point of it all?

If anyone’s interested, this video, a few years old now, perfectly nails the fundamental difference between the philosophy of the show and the books: https://youtu.be/ek2O6bVAIQQ

Film & TV / Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« on: 14 May, 2019, 01:36:01 am »
I like fictional violence just fine. Doesn't mean I want to watch a solid hour of it. The latest episode felt wildly excessive to me, and in service of what, exactly? What is the point or message of this story? All that brilliant worldbuilding and character work early on, and this is all it comes down to? Violence begetting more violence and so on and so on.... It all just made me feel exhausted, a bit sad and a little bored, tbh. I expected a lot more from the ending to this story.

Film & TV / Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« on: 13 May, 2019, 10:51:19 pm »
There’s a line between horror and porn. This crossed that line by many minutes.

Hyperbole much?  I'm fairly secure in assuming that the dictionary definition of porn doesn't come into play here. 

How does one get across the feeling of relentless bombardment without it being ... relentless?  See also: "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit" in Lord of the Rings.  We feel a strong empathy with the long trail of trials that Frodo, Sam and Gollum face partly because we spend a long time on the trail with them.  Or is that just quest porn?

For me, with Hardhome, the Battle of the Bastards, then the loot train battle, then The Long Night, and now this latest episode I just feel deadened by all the senseless slaughter. It's all just so one-note. Is that really all this was leading to? Just watching thousands of extras get mowed down week in, week out?

And that's not to say that all of those battles weren't incredibly well-exectued on a technical level. I just wasn't anywhere near as invested or on edge as I was say during the fight between the Mountain and the Viper back in season 4 where the emotional stakes felt so much higher.

Film & TV / Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« on: 13 May, 2019, 10:41:49 pm »
For me it's the best of the season, yeah still rushed but the Mad Queen has been teased for so long.

Now she's lost her claim to the throne, two dragons and all her close advisers who in previous episodes have held back her more murderous instincts. This carnage was the logical conclusion.

The setup for Dany’s heel turn was woefully inadequate as far as I’m concerned. The way the show set it up I could totally see her burning down a path to the Red Keep with no regard for bystanders, but there is a monumental difference between that and actively deciding to genocide an entire city of innocent men, women and children just because. I will never, ever buy it as a logical storytelling choice.

I don't doubt that 'Dany burns down King's Landing' is a plot point that came from Martin. Dany going full-on conqueror is her pretty much signposted by her last chapter in the last published book. However, it is also widely speculated that following the disaster at KL (which will most likely largely be due to Dany inadvertently igniting the wildfire caches buried under the city) she will be wracked with guilt and abandon her hopes of claiming the throne, eventually finding redemption by heading north to fight the army of the dead alongside Jon Snow and (probably) Stannis, a battle in which she will one way or another end up giving her life and the lives of the dragons.

To me, that’s an immensely more satisfying and logical conclusion to her arc, and the saga as a whole, and really fits the ‘bittersweet’ theme that Martin describes. You get the pathos, the moral ambiguity, and you still get a dragon raining firey death over King’s Landing, but you get it without throwing Dany’s entire arc under the bus. The way it played out in the show is a miserable nightmare with no hope of resolution or redemption. Yeah - Arya’s gonna kill her next episode. Honestly, who gives a shit? How depressing. Are we supposed to glean some kind of satisfaction from that? If you’d have told me five years ago that this is how the story would end, I’d have laughed out loud. It’s like they let a teenage edgelord write it; 'And then this happens, and then this happens, and then this guy kills this and this guy and then this guys blows this thing up, and then...'.

I also cannot fathom the degree to which Jon Snow has been sidelined this final season. He is arguably the central protagonist of the entire saga - the literal embodiment of the ‘Ice and Fire’ in the title of the series, and he’s been given almost nothing to do.

All I can is that I hope this travesty reignites Martin’s interest in wrapping up the book series, because he surely can’t be happy with this being the official ending of the saga.

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