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2018: forthcoming thrills..

Started by janus stark, 05 January, 2018, 12:39:55 PM

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IndigoPrime

Quote from: Steve Green on 10 July, 2018, 03:18:22 PMThere are plenty of half-finished series/plotlines littering the past few years not by John Smith.
Sure, but with Indigo Prime, Rebellion already had (and has presumably paid for) a chunk of script. So that wasn't so much a dangling plot thread as content that could only be used if someone finished it.

The Amstor Computer

I could be wrong, but from memory of the various postings here and elsewhere, John Smith had completed the first two episodes and was working on another after a long hiatus. I believe Lee Carter had completed his art for those episodes too, so I'm assuming Tharg was left with a dozen pages of complete story and a tough choice to make between binning the whole lot, proceeding without Smith, or waiting and hoping that the whole story could be completed at some point by Smith.

Beyond that, I've no idea what's happened between Tharg/Rebellion and Smith, but hopefully it doesn't preclude a return for him at some point - he's one of my favourite voices in the prog, and I'd like to see more by him at some point. That new writers have taken over on Devlin Waugh and Tyranny (though perhaps that latter will be a one-off, rather than an ongoing thing) suggests a more major breakdown, but we'll see.

re: Pat's complaint about Rico. Eh... I'm a little iffy on that one. Yes, he's Pat's (and Mick's) creation and the story is relatively important in the development of Dredd, but it feels a little off for a writer who has essentially had nothing to do with Dredd (barring some half-dozen or so episodes?) for decades to erupt about another freelancer exploring the character (especially for a strip that is, now Wagner has stepped back significantly, more of a corporate strip). I remember the blow-up about Satanus and I had a little more sympathy for that, as Pat had returned to the old dino several times and had crossed him over to his other strips (that said, it had been quite some time since anything had happened with Satanus at that point, and he wasn't as clearly a "Pat Mills" character as someone like Nemesis or Hammerstein, so I could see how editorial and all involved had gone forward with Satanus Unchained expecting no issues).



Frank

Quote from: Steve Green on 10 July, 2018, 02:42:13 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 10 July, 2018, 03:30:07 PM
Quote from: Steve Green on 10 July, 2018, 03:18:22 PM
There are plenty of half-finished series/plotlines littering the past few years not written by John Smith. I have some sympathy about getting someone in to finish one already started (Indigo Prime), but handing over Devlin Waugh and Tyranny Rex?

Agreed - not to mention Revere, whose appearance, whilst possibly intended as tribute to Smith, jarred horribly. For the most part, I'd rather new creators came up with their own unique stories.

In general, with a couple of exceptions, having other writers take over characters doesn't have a great track record.

Quality is the strongest argument against treating stories like shoes at a bowling alley.

Mills has a solution that addresses Bolt's concern for artists by compensating creators for all exploitation of characters and strips they originate in exactly the same way Rebellion already do with regard to merchandise. *

If anyone else uses something you created, you're paid a fixed percentage. Giving originators a stake in this way incentivises originality in new creators and publishers alike.

For the avoidance of further misunderstanding, Mills recently posted that he's sought and received assurances that nobody else will be writing characters he created.



* Full details here, outlined by Mills's own Nemesis, Dark Dave Bishop, in a guide to running 2000ad that's well worth reading in its own right:

"Egmont Fleetway pays creators 10% of our net revenue from sales. This is split equally – 5% to the writer, 5% to the artist. However, if the item is drawn by someone other than the original artist creator, we split the 5% art royalty 80/20 – the artist whose work is being sold gets 4%, the character's creator gets 1%.

In the case of the Prog 2000 t-shirt, this gets even more complicated because it features five characters. The writer split is fairly straight forward, going to Pat Mills (1% as creator of Nemesis), Robbie Morrison (1% as creator of Nikolai Dante), Gerry Finley-Day (1% as creator of Rogue Trooper),  and John Wagner (2% as creator of Judge Dredd and Strontium Dog).

But when it comes to the art split, the headaches really begin. The artist, Brian Bolland, will get 4% of our net revenue. The other 1% of the art royalty is split between Kevin O'Neill (0.2% as creator of Nemesis), Simon Fraser (0.2% as creator of Nikolai Dante), Dave Gibbons (0.2% as creator of Nemesis), and Carlos Ezquerra (0.4% as creator of Judge Dredd and Strontium Dog)."

http://viciousimagery.blogspot.com/2017/02/loving-alien-guide-to-running-2000ad.html

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: Frank on 10 July, 2018, 07:47:20 PM
For the avoidance of further misunderstanding, Mills recently posted that he's sought and received assurances that nobody else will be writing characters he created.

That's from 19th of May and considerably predates this latest Rico kerfuffle, though, suggesting the issue might not be completely settled.
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IndigoPrime

QuoteI had to discourage a serious attempt by the Phoenix to do a young Slaine about four years ago, so my concern about these new writers is real. If the Phoenix project had gone ahead it would have been a watered down Slaine for the middle classes. Eugh!
I'm thinking "Eugh!" at this point, too, but not at the Phoenix. FFS.

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 10 July, 2018, 08:26:31 PM
I'm thinking "Eugh!" at this point, too, but not at the Phoenix. FFS.

Given that it wouldn't have been 'Young Slaine', unless there was a serious proposal to license the character to The Phoenix I never heard about, is Pat now claiming to have ownership over 'all barbarian stories with a Celtic flavour'...?!
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IndigoPrime

Perhaps he invented Conan the Barbarian in 1932.

The Amstor Computer

That revenue split sounds like a reasonable approach, though one that has some wrinkles that would be interesting to see dealt with.

The link to Pat's "keep off the grass" statement is interesting - there's a fair amount in there I agree with, and Pat's position on strips like Slaine is entirely understandable and seems to be respected by Rebellion. That said... M.A.C.H. 1? The strip even Pat has said was a direct rip-off of The Six Million Dollar Man? Like a whole host of strips at the time, it was clearly a comic response to a popular series in other media, and while it had a 2000AD spin put on it, it's hard not to have some sympathy with the idea that it was Steve Austin with the serial numbers filed off. John Probe was also almost a "house character" from the off (writing credits alone on the strip run to Pat, John Wagner, Roy Preston, Nick Allen, Charles Herring, Alan Hebden, Robert Flynn and Steve MacManus across the life of the strip) and while Pat has clearly staked his claim here with his sequel/reimagining, Greysuit, the "ownership" of M.A.C.H. 1 doesn't feel as clear-cut as something like Nemesis, Slaine et al. I wonder if he would have been quite as protective about John Probe if he hadn't mined M.A.C.H. 1 for a reimagining of his own?

Frank

Quote from: The Amstor Computer on 10 July, 2018, 08:34:12 PM
That revenue split sounds like a reasonable approach, though one that has some wrinkles that would be interesting to see dealt with.

The link to Pat's "keep off the grass" statement is interesting - there's a fair amount in there I agree with, and Pat's position on strips like Slaine is entirely understandable and seems to be respected by Rebellion. That said... M.A.C.H. 1? The strip even Pat has said was a direct rip-off of The Six Million Dollar Man? Like a whole host of strips at the time, it was clearly a comic response to a popular series in other media, and while it had a 2000AD spin put on it, it's hard not to have some sympathy with the idea that it was Steve Austin with the serial numbers filed off. John Probe was also almost a "house character" from the off (writing credits alone on the strip run to Pat, John Wagner, Roy Preston, Nick Allen, Charles Herring, Alan Hebden, Robert Flynn and Steve MacManus across the life of the strip) and while Pat has clearly staked his claim here with his sequel/reimagining, Greysuit, the "ownership" of M.A.C.H. 1 doesn't feel as clear-cut as something like Nemesis, Slaine et al. I wonder if he would have been quite as protective about John Probe if he hadn't mined M.A.C.H. 1 for a reimagining of his own?

I don't imagine Mills has much time for Frank Miller or his work, but he'd do well to heed Dwight's advice about the importance of choosing the ground upon which you fight[1].

Mills & McMahon are undeniably the creators of Rico[2], but arguing that only they should decide when or how that character is used seems more like dogged determination to follow a point of principle to its logical conclusion than heartfelt anguish.

On the other hand, Slaine, ABC Warriors, Nemesis, Finn, and Defoe - the starting points for that line of logic - I'm happy to watch disappear over the horizon alongside their creators[3].


[1] To be fair to Mills, the Mach-1 comments were in response to Whatabouttery from Jay Gunn.

[2] ... and, therefore, under the terms described above, would be entitled to a tiny stake in any future exploitation of the character. Mills & McMahon would receive a credit on any film or TV show that made use of the character. Few would argue that shouldn't involve financial compensation, so it seems strange to argue that exploitation of the character in other media should be any different.

[3] ... or, as Mills would presumably agree, for Alex Di Campi to weigh her desire to write Slaine against her willingness to send 1% off to Torremolinos every week, marked 'paid with thanks'

Steven Denton

I like a lot of stories written by people other than the original creators of strips but I do think the original creators deserve recognition and compensation and I think Mills has a point about the creators wishes about other writers working on their strips being respected. I also think that there is a good argument that rights were sold too cheaply because the system demanded it in the past. creators had no choice other than to sell their entire stake in something and have no guarantee of a credit if they wanted to work in UK comics up until the late 1970's Rebellion Bought the IP, they can respect Mills wishes or not as a gentleman's agreement, the only way to guarantee the creators rights is to transfer some ownership back to them. If they were to sell their IP there is no guarantee that any subsequent owner would uphold the same agreement. If the agreements were part of the sale than the IP would be worth less then if the new IP holder was free to act however they whished.

Characters created for someone else's strip or a corporate strip are a more complicated issue. The originator is already working within someone else's sand box so the ideas can only ever be so original, and if no one else can use them in a shared universe there probably isn't a compelling reason to let them be created in the first place. Dredd had a bit of an issue (also an issue with Dredd and Anderson) where different writers tell complex and far reaching stories that have absolutely no effect on each other, it seems at times like they exist in small unconnected bubble universes within the comic. 

For a real mess though, I present to you; Friday. Friday is a re-boot of Rogue Trooper Gerry Finley-Day and Dave Gibbons created RT but Gibbons and Will Simpson created Friday, but Friday is basically Rogue so was he actually created by Finley-Day Gibbons & Simpson? Maybe not. Gibbons IIRC made Friday how he thought RT should be, essential expunging Finley-Days input so maybe it is just Gibbons and Simpson. Friday then becomes Tor Cyan under Kev Walker and John Tomlinson... but does that make Tor created by Finley-Day Gibbons Walker and Tomlinson?

M.I.K.

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 10 July, 2018, 08:26:31 PM
QuoteI had to discourage a serious attempt by the Phoenix to do a young Slaine about four years ago, so my concern about these new writers is real. If the Phoenix project had gone ahead it would have been a watered down Slaine for the middle classes. Eugh!
I'm thinking "Eugh!" at this point, too, but not at the Phoenix. FFS.

Whenever Pat Mills says anything about middle class folk it reminds me of those vehemently homophobic politicians who turn out to have a profile on Grindr.

Also, WTAF is he on about? What has class got to do with anything in this instance? Is it just 'cos they (apparently) sell the comic in Waitrose?

IndigoPrime

God knows. You'd think he'd be supportive of a comic full of original strip that, against all the odds, has managed to survive and thrive in the current climate, rather than dismissing it with a sneer. And, like Jim said, why shouldn't they do a barbarian strip? Sláine isn't exactly unique in the world.

Steve Green


Jim_Campbell

Quote from: Steve Green on 11 July, 2018, 03:45:18 PM
Supportive like this thread you mean?

How is that in any way relevant to the subject under discussion?
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Steve Green

Ah, it's the wrong product we're being supportive of then?