2000 AD Online Forum

Just started going through and re-reading a load of stuff from the 700s and the first really great but oft forgotten story is Millar's Silo.

Now I know Mark Millar has a bit of a rubbish reputation amongst many 2000ad fans (and having also re-read the re-worked Robo-hunter I can see why!) but this really is a bit of a hidden gem. Ok so there are a few obivoius movie steels, which are so obivious they could very well be tributes, but overall a really scarey, atmospheric little self contained story. Loved it.

A large part of this might be the Dave D'Antiques which is glorious and also one of the contributing factors to making Brigand Doom, well at least the first story so good. Really enjoyed this one to. Ok so it felt a little derivative of V for Vendetta but still a great little story.

So what on earth happened to Dave D'Antiques? I know he did a few more Brigand Doom stories but this fella was a talent and as far as I can remember didn't do much else in 2000ad certainly?

I appear to have a Silo-shaped hole in my memory, so this seems like a good opportunity to brush the dust off and have a reread.

Quote from: "ctaylor"So what on earth happened to Dave D'Antiques? I know he did a few more Brigand Doom stories but this fella was a talent and as far as I can remember didn't do much else in 2000ad certainly?

I had a look around online a few months back out of curiosity as I loved his style and he could easily have gone on to great things (Mignola and Miller have both taken that... Expressionistic? look on right to the top). However, I found nothing so I'd be interested to hear if anyone knows anything on this.

QuoteI appear to have a Silo-shaped hole in my memory, so this seems like a good opportunity to brush the dust off and have a reread.

I can save you the bother if you like.  You've seen The Shining?  You've seen Die Hard?  Grab a couple of complete scenes from each and relocate them to a nuclear missile silo.  Bingo, you've just remembered Silo. Good art though.

I liked Silo, me. Never copped the Shining influence before, I'd never seen it when I read Silo, but yeah, suppose it does pretty much wear it on its sleeve

Quote from: "TordelBack"I can save you the bother if you like.  You've seen The Shining?  You've seen Die Hard?  Grab a couple of complete scenes from each and relocate them to a nuclear missile silo.  Bingo, you've just remembered Silo. Good art though.

Sadly, pretty much every story you read will be in some way plagerised from other storys. Even Alan Moore's stuff. It is why if you want to be a writer you are advised to be well read.
This annoyingly lets Miller off the hook as if you are going to burn him you have to burn Mills, Moore, Ennis, Morrison or Ellis or any writer you like right next to him.

Ach, I know, and I did enjoy Silo at the time - different for 2000AD, and very atmospheric, 'Black rain will fall forever' is nicely spooky too.  It's just the Die Hard walking-on-glass scene in particular pulled me right out of the story and left me picking other holes... And I make a point of NEVER letting Millar off the hook for anything.

Yeah the walking on glass thing was a bit jarring. That and the repeated typing were so obivious as references that I've kinda decided that they must have been intentional. Millar emphasizing the atmospheric movie qualities of the script, which were certainly supported by the glorious art.

If you're looking bits to have a go at, the think that bugged me was the fact that the repeated typing formed a great (if derivative) cliff hanger at the end of the first part BUT then weren't referenced in the second. Annoying but for me certainly didn't take away too much from a great story.

Quote from: "Tweak72"Sadly, pretty much every story you read will be in some way plagerised from other stories. Even Alan Moore's stuff. It is why if you want to be a writer you are advised to be well read.
This annoyingly lets Miller off the hook as if you are going to burn him you have to burn Mills, Moore, Ennis, Morrison or Ellis or any writer you like right next to him.

Uh... I don't think that's true by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, it's hard to find a topic that's never been touched on in fiction before, but to assume that every story EVER is plagarised from another one? That is, with the greatest respect, Tweak old boy, utter rubbish.

Perhaps the formula is a bit more obvious in Tooth because the original remit was, to some extent, to create strips that 'played' on exisiting popular genres/books/shows, but you're barking if you think that every writer about to create new stories sits down and thinks 'Right then, what can I rip off today?'

Quote from: "Dark Jimbo"Uh... I don't think that's true by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree. Plus, the Millar rip-offs in Silo are breath-taking in their sheer, blatant lack of effort to even conceal the source material - just straight lift-and-transplant. Hardly the same as covering the same themes, or using similar devices ... these are ripped bleeding from the originals and, there is a certain amount of contempt for the audience demonstrated in the assumption that either a) they won't spot it, or b) it doesn't matter.

Cheers

Jim

Think what you like but pretty much all writers including the ones I mentioned all say the same thing. The first thing any aspireing writer needs to do is become widely read. So that you become influenced by all that has gone before. Ask your self this: did Pat Mills just come up with the idea of Slàne on his own or was he strongly inflenced by things like The Book of Invasions? Did Alan Moore come up with Watchmen just like that or did he draw on influences of old detective novels? Did Garth Ennis just pull Preacher out of his arse or did he get strongly influenced by storys of true grit from the Wild West? Come on people you have read the same forwards and interviews as I have they ALL say "I was inspired by" this set of books or "I was reading" such and such author or "I thought why dont I do a modern version of that story". Even bloody Tolkin said where he got his ideas from.

Being well read is not the same as watching a few movies and lifting the scenes wholesale from them and almost randomly inserting them into your own story though is it?

Quote from: "Tweak72"Think what you like but pretty much all writers including the ones I mentioned all say the same thing. The first thing any aspiring writer needs to do is become widely read. So that you become influenced by all that has gone before.

Um, I don't mean to be patronising, but do you know what plaigarism actually means?

Quote from: "Tweak72"Come on people you have read the same forewords and interviews as I have they ALL say "I was inspired by" this set of books or "I was reading" such and such author or "I thought why dont I do a modern version of that story".

And? Surely that's what fiction is - a creative response to the influences that have shaped your life, the people you've met, the places you've been to, the books you've read. I don't even see how someone would begin to write a book without any reference to or inspiration from any outside stimuli whatsoever, unless they'd lived all their life trapped in a metal box, fed through a tube. And then it wouldn't really be a book worth reading.

Quote from: "Tweak72"Even bloody Tolkien said where he got his ideas from.

Are you having a laugh now? How can you genuinely equate Tolkein's being inspired by old European myth cycles to craft one of the most important and original fantasy trilogies of all time to Mark Millar's contemptuous scene-for-scene ripping off of blockbuster films?

You can't seriously think that 'having an idea' equals plaigarism?!

Now then lads, keep it civil - this is the internet you know, and we have standards.

The Tolkien thing is interesting, because of (one theory of) how LotR came into being... Middle Earth is a history and location created specifically as somewhere for JRRT's invented languages to live and develop, and the various plots are means to travel around that setting and explore the locales and events that shaped those languages - so even when aspects of the story are lifted from common myth and legend, it's in service to a much greater whole.  That's probably the key to recycling elements, they need to be smoothly reincorporated into something that has an substantial originality of its own - very hard to do if the scenes are verbatim lifts.

QuoteDid Garth Ennis just pull Preacher out of his arse

It's all clear to me now!

The way I look at it, the difference between a story that's been influenced by something else and one that's a total rip-off is this...

A story that borrows another's main idea, (or core concept, if you prefer),  has been heavily influenced by it.

A story that takes another's concept but also takes entire scenes from the story with little or no alterations is a total rip-off.

Quote from: "Dark Jimbo"

Quote from: "Tweak72"Think what you like but pretty much all writers including the ones I mentioned all say the same thing. The first thing any aspiring writer needs to do is become widely read. So that you become influenced by all that has gone before.

Um, I don't mean to be patronising, but do you know what plaigarism actually means?

Quote from: "Tweak72"Come on people you have read the same forewords and interviews as I have they ALL say "I was inspired by" this set of books or "I was reading" such and such author or "I thought why dont I do a modern version of that story".

And? Surely that's what fiction is - a creative response to the influences that have shaped your life, the people you've met, the places you've been to, the books you've read. I don't even see how someone would begin to write a book without any reference to or inspiration from any outside stimuli whatsoever, unless they'd lived all their life trapped in a metal box, fed through a tube. And then it wouldn't really be a book worth reading.

Quote from: "Tweak72"Even bloody Tolkien said where he got his ideas from.

Are you having a laugh now? How can you genuinely equate Tolkein's being inspired by old European myth cycles to craft one of the most important and original fantasy trilogies of all time to Mark Millar's contemptuous scene-for-scene ripping off of blockbuster films?

You can't seriously think that 'having an idea' equals plaigarism?!

Plagiarism is the use or close imitation of anothers ideas and passing them off as ones own work. Good enough for you?

And so my point is if you are going to have a go at Miller using the idea in Silo of some one having to deal with lots of broken glass and no shoes then you have to do the same with every other writer.
For example Pat Mills should be held to account for stealing the mostly unnamed and long dead people who wrote the poems that make up the Book of Invasions and large parts of Conan the Cimmerian (which was also "based on" a lot of "Celtic" mythos). Because the book of Invasions is what he based Slane on. Just because the people who first sang these tales all died centuries ago does not mean they didnt have large parts of ideas "closely imitated". And I do not for a minute believe that Mills never read Robert E. Howard's work. While I think Slane is awesome I can see that it is a "close imitation" of work that has gone before Mills has even said the book of invasions was a massive influence

And so Tolkien wanted to write his own epic legends as he was greatly influenced by stories such as Beowulf and was a Professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford wrote papers on these storys and is quoted in these essays as saying "Beowulf is among my most valued sources," you can see if you know those tails how things like the battle of helms deep is such a close imitation of these tales.

If you are widely enough read you could pick any story by anyone and see how much of said story is infulenced by older work some would of course be more blatant then others but everyone who writes does it. And my point was (as much as I would like any one o be able to because for the most part he annoys me as well) don't slag Miller off for it because you will have to do the same for all the rest.

I think with Slaine you could argue the case that it's more of an adaptation than a rip-off.

There are about 20 different primary plots:

http://www.tennscreen.com/plots.htm (http://www.tennscreen.com/plots.htm)

and most stories will fit somewhere into one or more of these points. The real skill is in the way that the plot elements are handled. For example, Raymond Chandler has a wonderful way of explaining how his main charcter Philip Marlowe does the most mundane of tasks during the developement of a story.
The sequential art form is slightly different, of course, in that some parts of the narrative have to be carried by image alone (An aside: has anyone put together a list of common comic uses of art, such as the splash page? I'd be interested to read that).

I personally think that Silo is a good tale although what I know about real missile silo's jars with what is seen in the plot. It's my personal opinion that the writer did take the glass scene from Die Hard and add this as a plot element. If this were a film short and it had come out around the time that it did I am sure that some reviews would have a similar opinion. But this isn't plagiarism as the underlying story is different. Writing 'Barry Topper and the secret stone' and including many of the elements and segments of Rowlings work; that is plagiarism.

-Bouwel-

I think as Jim may have implied, it has a lot to do with the writer's intent. As disdainful sometimes as he can be of their attitudes as he perceives them, Mills unlike Millar has never given me the impression from his stories nor from the interviews he's given that he has contempt for his readership's intelligence.

Quote from: "Eric Plumrose"I think as Jim may have implied, it has a lot to do with the writer's intent. As disdainful sometimes as he can be of their attitudes as he perceives them, Mills unlike Millar has never given me the impression from his stories nor from the interviews he's given that he has contempt for his readership's intelligence.

... As long as they agree with him and his point of view of course. If not then are they (we?) not classed as some kind of shadowy deranged forces of fandom by Mills? Or was that a rant by another writer?

Bouwel, nice link and point BTW was exactly where I was going.

Quote from: "Tweak72"... As long as they agree with him and his point of view of course. If not then are they (we?) not classed as some kind of shadowy deranged forces of fandom by Mills? Or was that a rant by another writer?

. . . Which is the exact knee-jerk reaction to Mills that only serves to foster the perception he seems to have of 2000 AD's readership, or at least elements of it.

LOL.

In all seriousness I, like many, have always thought that Miller is a bit of a w@nker. But I cannot in really fault him that much as he has not done anything any other writer has done.
Yes, he has often done it with all the subtlety of atomic explosion.
Yes, he has often done it with the same reverence and respect for the history of what ever he is written about as a Sheep rapist back stage at a One man and his dog show. (unlike say Warren Ellis or Garth Ennis who have while having a reputation for giving things a real twisted egde have re written several old style comic books and done an excellent job).
And yes, he does seem to come across as an egomaniac in interviews but as Warren Ellis has said "he is playing the game"

Quote from: "Tweak72"But I cannot in really fault him that much as he has not done anything any other writer has done.

Balls, Tweak. I get the impression that you're arguing this point for the toss of it, but you really are stretching it a bit thin.

It's one thing -- as already mentioned -- to be open to a wide range of influences and to bring those influences to whatever project you're working on, and no bad thing at that. It's quite another to just rip chunks out of other people's work and shoe-horn them into your own.

You simply can't draw a direct equivalence between, say, Morrison looking at Jan Svankmajer's work and saying to himself "Let's see if I can't find some way to get some of this surrealism and menace into Doom Patrol" and Millar lifting one of cinema's greatest reveals wholesale to use as a cheap cliffhanger which you then throw away in subsequent episodes.

Well, all right, you can, but you'd be wrong.

Cheers

Jim

I always saw Silo as Millar's own attempt at his mate Grant Morrison's idea of 'sampled' comics. He just wasn't as good at it. But I quite liked Silo regardless.
I never used to think he was a wanker, I just thought he did shit Dredds. The Robo Hunters I actually didn't mind, not being able to remember the real ones at the time (and I've just put on my armour and raised my riot shield).
Since I read the Alan Grant interview in the Megazine, though, I do think Millar is a wanker now.

Having never seen Die Hard (and still unlikely to ever do so) and not being a fan of The Shining at all, I utterly loved Silo. It's still up in the top twenty or so Thrills I list to myself in the dead of night inbetween the bouts of crying and frantic, guilty onanism.

Dave D'Antiques inspired a whole ream of correspondance back in the days of pen-pallage, when I was at university. My friend and I used to send letters back and forth with increasingly obscene addressee names. Inspired by a reading of Silo one night, he received one a few days later addressed to "Mr A N'Alantiques" (Mr Anal Antics). Oh we did laugh.

But yes, loved his work. It even made Brigand Doom readable.

Steev

Tangential I know, but this looks as good a place as any to register something that's vaguely bothered me for a while: two of Alan Moore's Future Shocks seem to have been lifted almost wholesale from jokes in THE HITCH-HIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY. Namely, AN AMERICAN WEREWOLF IN SPACE! (= Golgafrinchan B-Ark) and THE HYPER-HISTORIC HEADBANG! (= the reported antics of Disaster Area).

Also, Moore's THE TIME MACHINE (in which a man 'travels through time' by having his life flash before his eyes prior to the moment of his death) is *quite* similar to Douglas Adams' unrealised concept of basing a Hitchhikers' novel around Arthur Dent needing to remember something terribly important, so jumping off the highest place he can so that his life will flash before his eyes enabling him to 'travel through time' (it was in that DON'T PANIC book by Neil Gaiman, my copy of which I have lost).

But Alan Moore is still great. And I quite liked SILO. Tangent ends

All true lborl, and you were good enough not to bring non-Adams steals such as DR & Quinch into proceedings too.  Moore has made a career of grabbing other people's characters and stories and making them his own - however, he's so bloody good at it that his versions are often better than the originals (although Adams himself was of course brilliant), or where his borrowings are more honest, build upon or develop aspects of the source material.

The first two are quite similar, but they do do something with the concepts - the third, well if it was unused, you can hardly say he stole it, surely?  And of course, therein lies the nature of this kind of thing - some of it might be appropriated, and some of it might just be coincidence.  

Of course, Moore also has the Stephen King sentient cars thing in his future Shocks hall of shame too, as well as one of the Abelard Snazz's being a lift of something or other?   I seem to recall that the intros to the old titan books had Moore addressing this very subject.

Was it Moore that wrote the Future Shock which had a man traveling backwards in time from his death to his birth?
I'm sure that when I read that all those years ago I was positive that I had read the premise as a short story. Time may have blurred things for me though.

-Bouwel-

i remember a Grant Morrison Future Shock, about a letter that somehow ended up in space and caused a war, that shamelessly ripped  off the Hitch Hiker's Guide almost word-for-word. Still, he hasn't done too badly out of it

And I feel that these last few posts have rather proved my point.

Don't slag off Mark Miller for doing something all writers do. Even Alan Moore. Just because you don't like him.

And TBH some of the early tooth stuff Moore did this kinda stuff with was not that slickly done or at least as clumsily done as some parts of Millers Silo , which is generally agreed it seems, as one of his better works, as they where both pretty young writers at the time.

Now, if you want to slag Miller off for being a self serving egocentric opportunist who uses what ever long running comic he is working on at the moment to further himself and his ego to the next 'big thing' via interviews with a 'scorched earth' mentality for what ever he was working on and just because you don't like him, then I have absolutely no objections at all.

Oh and whilst we are giving him the kicking for the reason he deserves you may want to read the DC Elseworlds Book Red Son. It's annoyingly good.

Quote from: "Tweak72"you may want to read the DC Elseworlds Book Red Son. It's annoyingly good.

It's bloody marvelous is what it is! Until I found this forum, I had no idea there was such anti-millar feeling out there. Don't get it myself, there has been a great deal more heaps of doodoo in the prog over the years than Mr M's efforts!
*cough*greysuit*cough*

Quote from: "Tweak72"And I feel that these last few posts have rather proved my point.

Don't slag off Mark Miller for doing something all writers do. Even Alan Moore. Just because you don't like him.

But we dont like him cos he's rubbish at ripping stuff off! Basically, if you can bring something new to it, then go ahead - if all you can do is parrot a famous scene in your own work irrespective of the sense of it (were there fishtanks in the nuclear bunker?  and type writers?) then don't.  It's not that you can't borrow themes or even core ideas - its snatching a complete scenario and pasting it into your own.  Its a bit like cutting and pasting a Dredd strip out of old McMahon images, or drawing in a heavily influenced style.

I like his run on The Authority an awful lot, it was that, Planetary and ABC that got me back into comics after a while out.

The Authority was not so good, The Jenny Sparks thing was OK but after that was MEH! Like I said Red Son was so good I didn't think It was Mark Miller till I rechecked the cover. This is so good I almost forgave him for Dig Dave! The Ultimates was also awesome. Finally all the attempted "witty banter" and just slightly this side of wrong happenings he had failed at in 2000ad and The Authority worked. Really well! Add this to his other Ultimate line stuff INCLUDING starting off Marvel Zombies in Ultimate FF and I am starting to think the whole 2000ad thing was just down to just being an inexperienced writer.

Then I read the end of Civil War.

What a W@nker! What a compete GIT! What was he playing at?? [spoiler]Why the FCUK did he get one of the main characters who was fighting the idea of hero registration and such TO TELEPORT EVERY FIGHTING HERO RIGHT IN TO THE MIDDLE OF MANHATTAN??![/spoiler] Right away Miller is again on the top of my hate list! A mouth full of turds is just almost too good a punishment for him. Almost!

So I am not defending him because I like him. I just don't think he did that much wrong with Silo.

Well since we've turned to an examination of Millar much as a lot of what he writes I think is pretty over rated (His FF run, well the first four issues I read, was terrible). Having just read the second 'reboot' Robohunter which I thought was truely terrible, as a Robo-hunter story at the very least I'll try to find some positives.

Has anybody read the 1985 mini from last year. That was truely superb I thought.

Oh and I loved Civil War as well.

Quote from: "ctaylor"Oh and I loved Civil War as well.

For the most part it was pretty awesome. So much so that I was even expecting a brilliant twist at the end or some Ellis-esk ending but [spoiler]having Cloak dump a shed load of fighting, Super Powered idiots in to the middle of New York at rush hour was such a daft thing to do[/spoiler] and was the biggest Shark jump in comics in recent years. Not even recent issues of Tarot have matched it.

But then DC and Marvel have wasted so many good stories and characters in sacrifice to the Cross Over God in the last few years (Green Arrow for a start). And with all these cross over after cross over heaps of crap that I barley read ether of them any more [spoiler]Batman's dead? who cares?[/spoiler]. mostly its publishers like Dark Horse, IDW that keep my attention.
But I read now that Image are doing a massive cross over thing which gives me the heebie jeebies. Even if it is going to be done by Robert Kirkman.

 

Quote...was the biggest Shark jump in comics in recent years. Not even recent issues of Tarot have matched it.

I thought Tarot was about a team of professional Shark Jumpers, and set in a carnivorous fish/water activity theme park, with occasional guest appearances from the Fonz?  So it doesn't really count.

Quote from: "ctaylor"Oh and I loved Civil War as well.

I've not actually read Civil War, but I refuse to believe that the reality could be better than Mightygodking's rewrite.

//http://mightygodking.com/index.php/i-dont-need-your-civil-war/

Quote from: "TordelBack"

QuoteI appear to have a Silo-shaped hole in my memory, so this seems like a good opportunity to brush the dust off and have a reread.

I can save you the bother if you like.  You've seen The Shining?  You've seen Die Hard?  Grab a couple of complete scenes from each and relocate them to a nuclear missile silo.  Bingo, you've just remembered Silo. Good art though.

Well I finally got motivated (and the description was pretty de-motivating) and read the story and... dear oh dear.

I thought there were some interesting ideas - a missile silo sealed for 24 hours is a good setting and throwing in Edward Bulwer-Lytton was an interesting idea but seemed a bit clunky (especially as he died quietly in Torquay, as far as I'm aware) and the whole sub-plot (about HG Wells and the Fabian Society, told in great lumpen chunks of exposition) seems like a good idea for a story - just not this story.

And the Die Hard and Shining bits? There is a difference between reworking ideas and themes that have appeared elsewhere or just referencing them with a nod and a wink to the audience and just welding chunks of other stories onto your own. It is just lazy plotting and was completely unnecessary - he could have come up with a different way of doing this which would have worked better. It wouldn't have been so bad if it had been buried in a tonne of other good ideas but really that is pretty much it.

The whole comes across as a grab bag of random ideas with some nicked goodies thrown in to flesh it out, capped off with a stupid ending (he could have just sat there and waited to be relieved, the ghost couldn't have made him turn the launch key. Hell he could have had a snooze until the time was up).

All that said it was his first series at 2000 AD and he did improve (although you can take that whatever way you like), but I'd be surprised if anyone could sneak that into the current comic.

Nice art though.

Quote...but I'd be surprised if anyone could sneak that into the current comic.

Anyone who wasn't called Pat Mills, you mean!  

Just posted this over at 'Prog Slog' and thought I'd add it here as well

I've always enjoyed Brigand Doom. While I know you [Paul Rainey auther of The Prog Slog] have issues with some of Alan McKenzie's work I quite like him. 'Quite' being the operative work. He's not brillant but he's a good solid writer and I admire the fact that he tried numerous different things in 2000ad, Summer Magic being a good example which added to the variety in the comic. I'm particularly impressed by this as during his period writing there really was a trend in 2000ad and other comics to rely on shocking violence, apparent 'grit' and high style over story (yes Millar I'm looking at you) and this led to a lot of charmless stories. McKenzie often seemed to side step that and many of his stories had charm. I say often cos yeah I've read 'Mean Arena' recently!

I have to say, and this from an avowed Millar-phobic, Silo had the beginnings of a good story.  Just more work at concealing it's origins and stretching it beyond them and we'd be talking about a classic.  1 out of 10 for effort, 4 out of 10 for potential. 

Umm, any idea what happened to Dave D'Antiques?

Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 02 March, 2010, 09:16:09 PM
Umm, any idea what happened to Dave D'Antiques?

Merged with Acorn Antiques during the recession/

Cheers!

Jim

Fair enough. I'll take that as a "no".

Back to the Millar bashing, chaps. Sorry for interrupting.

Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 02 March, 2010, 09:22:41 PM
Fair enough. I'll take that as a "no".

Well, Googling him on his (correctly spelled) name yields nothing except one Batman story in 1995 (http://www.comicbookdb.com/issue.php?ID=51406).

I would have thought his style was ideally suited to something like Batman, but for some reason that seems to be it!

Cheers

Jim

Dave D'antiquis it says his name is spelt on Wikipedia. That's about all it knows about him though. I'd love to know more about him as well, loved his work.

Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 02 March, 2010, 09:16:09 PMUmm, any idea what happened to Dave D'Antiques?

In preparation for doing my Brigand Doom story in Zarjaz I thought it'd be interesting to see what he was up to as he had a strong visual style and I'd have thought it would have gone down well and he'd have been in demand. Unfortunately, I turned up nothing (an few can hide from my inquisitorial eye  :o). He might have gone into some other area or used an alias (but I'd have thought we'd have spotted it somewhere) or been kidnapped by Moonmen, but the trail is cold. I think a bit of a "Whatever Happened to.." discussion broke out (perhaps earlier in the thread) but nothing came of it. Pity, as I loved his work.

QuoteI do think Millar is a wanker now.

I'm going to retract that. Having seen a few interviews with him, he doesn't actually seem that bad a guy.  Didn't like his lack of respect for Alan Grant or 2000ad in general, but fuck it, there are much worse things in the world than that.

John Byrne, for example.

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 04 March, 2010, 09:31:38 PM
Didn't like his lack of respect for Alan Grant

For all his self Publicizing , using comics as movie proposals, crap writing for 2000ad  based faults I always thought he shown a healthy respect for Alan Grant. I remember reading somewhere, I think it might have been his message board an while abck, that he remains grateful to this day for the help Alan Grant gave him early in his career. Curious as to see another side to this?

Alan Grant himself complained about it in his recent Megazine interview.  He said Millar had spent a week or something in Grant's home, then went on to say that the old hacks of the comics scene needed to step back and let the new writers in.  Something like that, anyway. 

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 05 March, 2010, 03:34:40 PM
Alan Grant himself complained about it in his recent Megazine interview.  He said Millar had spent a week or something in Grant's home, then went on to say that the old hacks of the comics scene needed to step back and let the new writers in.  Something like that, anyway.

Indeed. The quote is:

Quote"I still get lots of scripts from people who want to be writers, asking if their work's good or bad. In almost every case I make a point of replying. It's very rare I don't, only if they say something that really annoys me." In several cases creators have gone on to careers in comics thanks to his help. "I've seen several people have mentioned me and any assistance I've given them, like Kev Sutherland.  I gave a lot of personal tuition to Robbie Morrison when he was starting out. He's acknowledge that in print.

"Grant Morrison has never mentioned what I did for him, I imagine he's too embarrassed to say somebody else helped him when he needed it. For my sins I helped Mark Millar, but I've never seen a good word from him. I have seen insults about me in print from him. At the time it bugged me a little. We let him stay at our house. A week later he's in the paper saying him and Grant Morrison are the true master of comics, not like yesterday's men who live in big houses full of antiques. F**k! I gave you your f**king tea! Why didn't you say that when you were here? The answer, of course, is simple - he'd have gotten a broken nose for his troubles."

Meg #268 page 22

Of course, this could be put down to a young and rebellious "yar boo, we are the best thing evah" phase he and Morrison went through (some of those old interviews would get them in a punch in polite society) but, as a link posted in the Kick Arse thread shows, he hasn't moved on much from this approach:

www.comicsalliance.com/2010/02/23/comicsalliance-vs-the-independents-mark-millar-article/

Wow.  Yet more proof that Grant Morrison and Mark Millar are on ONE side of a fence, and Alan Grant and Robbie Morrison (the TRUE Morrison) are on the other.  I'd guessed that was the case, nice to have it confirmed....

Quote from: Mike Gloady on 12 March, 2010, 08:24:45 PM
Wow.  Yet more proof that Grant Morrison and Mark Millar are on ONE side of a fence, and Alan Grant and Robbie Morrison (the TRUE Morrison) are on the other.  I'd guessed that was the case, nice to have it confirmed....

But who'd win in a fight?

Someone call Harry Hill.....

Quote from: Mike Gloady on 12 March, 2010, 08:24:45 PM
Wow.  Yet more proof that Grant Morrison and Mark Millar are on ONE side of a fence, and Alan Grant and Robbie Morrison (the TRUE Morrison) are on the other.  I'd guessed that was the case, nice to have it confirmed....

Oh FFS man...

While they do stray far into "smug fucking bastard" territory far too often (and while I'll sadly admit G. Morrison is long past his best work) Grant Morrison and Mark Millar aren't the first guys to take an irreverent and disrespectful attitude to the comics establishment of their time... read that Judge Dredd Mega-History that came out 15 years back, and you'll be stunned to see John Wagner and Pat Mills took much the same attitude when creating 2000ad, albeit more privately. They fucking hated IPC and IPC staffers! Pat Mills is waaaaay more due a good slagging, since he's turned hypocrisy and double-standards into a personal trademark vis-a-vis rewrites.

Putting forth a good guys vs bad guys view is just... ugh. It's not nice to look at. Some of these people are bloody weird, and some of these people manage to write bloody good stuff. I don't need them to be saints if they can write stories I like (which is why Mark Millar can fuck off because his stuff is psychopathic racist drivel more often than not - count the number of negative black stereotypes in Kick-Ass).

I've never seen Alan Grant slag someone off out of nowhere, but he does spend an awful lot of time grinding those axes. He must surely have the sharpest axes outside of Brynerobotics. Grindy grind. Millar pissing on his hospitality stinks, but Alan Grant needs to get over things a bit more. Man seems to be carrying a lot of bitterness.

Quote from: Emperor on 02 March, 2010, 11:34:42 PM

Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 02 March, 2010, 09:16:09 PMUmm, any idea what happened to Dave D'Antiques?

In preparation for doing my Brigand Doom story in Zarjaz I thought it'd be interesting to see what he was up to as he had a strong visual style and I'd have thought it would have gone down well and he'd have been in demand. Unfortunately, I turned up nothing (an few can hide from my inquisitorial eye  :o).

I realise I'm bringing an old thread back to life but I've only recently registered and don't seem to be able to PM you Emperor... perhaps I'm just being a numpty! Anyhow...

Completely by chance I met Dave D'Antiquis the other day... he gave me some of his original 2000AD and DC artwork which was pretty cool of him! I don't think he's in the business any more and at the time I didn't really realise who he was so I only chatted for about half an hour or so.

He may have dropped of radar intentionally, but are you still keen to get in touch with him?

Quote from: betel_uk on 26 September, 2010, 01:29:41 PM

Completely by chance I met Dave D'Antiquis the other day... he gave me some of his original 2000AD and DC artwork which was pretty cool of him! I don't think he's in the business any more and at the time I didn't really realise who he was so I only chatted for about half an hour or so.

That is very cool. Its a shame he's gone elsewhere but hopefully he's enjoying whatever he's up to these days?

Quote from: Tweak72 on 24 February, 2009, 01:19:21 PM
Did Garth Ennis just pull Preacher out of his arse or did he get strongly influenced by storys of true grit from the Wild West?

That arse had talent, creativity and judgement. Millar, now well into his career, is still ripping movies off wholesale as evidenced by the blatant scene lifting that goes on currently in Nemesis, like the car splitting in two with the bike being ejaculated out the front. The fucker is just too cynnical with his audience, not just cynical in his stories but in his attitude to his lazy writing, basically he's saying this is as good as you, the reader, deserve.

Quote from: betel_uk on 26 September, 2010, 01:29:41 PM

Quote from: Emperor on 02 March, 2010, 11:34:42 PM

Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 02 March, 2010, 09:16:09 PMUmm, any idea what happened to Dave D'Antiques?

In preparation for doing my Brigand Doom story in Zarjaz I thought it'd be interesting to see what he was up to as he had a strong visual style and I'd have thought it would have gone down well and he'd have been in demand. Unfortunately, I turned up nothing (an few can hide from my inquisitorial eye  :o).

I realise I'm bringing an old thread back to life but I've only recently registered and don't seem to be able to PM you Emperor... perhaps I'm just being a numpty! Anyhow...

Well before we jump straight to "numpty" it is possible there is a setting that stops the newly registered from sending PMs as we have had a few rounds of spam PMs. That said I don't know if this has been done here... ;)

Quote from: betel_uk on 26 September, 2010, 01:29:41 PMCompletely by chance I met Dave D'Antiquis the other day... he gave me some of his original 2000AD and DC artwork which was pretty cool of him!

Damn straight - he did stunning work and I imagine those pages must be a sight to behold. I'd love to see a photo of them.

Quote from: betel_uk on 26 September, 2010, 01:29:41 PMI don't think he's in the business any more and at the time I didn't really realise who he was so I only chatted for about half an hour or so.

He may have dropped of radar intentionally, but are you still keen to get in touch with him?

I have no real need to contact him, I was just curious to see if I could find out what he was up to today (a lot of droids move on to movie or video game concept work) as I was a fan of his work back in the day. So, no need to bother him just to satisfy my curiosity but you can pass on our best wishes and perhaps point him in this general direction - it'd be great if he stopped in and said hello (although he doesn't have to, of course ;) ).

I remember a Terror Tale he did written by Mark Millar about a mentally retarded guy helping to bring on a Lovecraftian Armageddon. I'll go out on a limb here and say I loved it - it was one of the few 'scary' comic stories that ever really put genuine shivers down my spine. Millar wasn't all bad.

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 06 October, 2010, 06:58:36 PM
I remember a Terror Tale he did written by Mark Millar about a mentally retarded guy helping to bring on a Lovecraftian Armageddon. I'll go out on a limb here and say I loved it - it was one of the few 'scary' comic stories that ever really put genuine shivers down my spine. Millar wasn't all bad.

Not sure that was Millar as the only one they did together was fairly run of the mill.

I remember the one you mean, it was full colour and basically a young chap with learning difficulties says the world will end with the return of Cthulhu Mythos entities and then they do. I remember being impressed back in the day but the story didn't bring much extra to the table. The art was really well done - a big departure from his other work but still effective, mixing a very painterly approach with biro type scribblings of unnameable horror.

Just checking and it is "Even Death May Die" by Chris McHale in prog 841.

Quote from: Emperor on 04 April, 2009, 11:05:37 PM
I thought there were some interesting ideas - ... throwing in Edward Bulwer-Lytton was an interesting idea but seemed a bit clunky (especially as he died quietly in Torquay, as far as I'm aware)

And what do I spy in Zenith Phase IV, prog 800? "The Coming Race" by Edward Bulwer-Lytton, last mentioned by Millar in prog 707. Lifted by Grant? Plucked by Mark from the Morrison's flickering meme-aura?

[edit: Ah ha, but it first appears in Zenith in prog 541.]

In my never ending quest to find artwork .... i found a 2000ad artist Dave d'Antiquis , it has taken me 10 years , nobody knew where he was ....
I found him using all my contacts and £11 ( grrr long story ) well i got an email from him tonight ...... cmon......

He's got nowt left , all given away .... shit or bust , but sometimes its not about just buying artwork ...

Now to find my last 2000ad artist ....

Good to hear you tracked him down Dale; the quest is (at least) half the fun.  What's he up to these days?

A few months ago I was scouring the internet for Dave D'antiquis original art also, as I loved his stuff.
Saw a few pages for sale on The Book Palace website, but they were already sold, and seemingly just left there to taunt / annoy me.

Bring back 'Brigand Doom' with Al Ewing writing it and D'antiquis out of retirement Tharg!


Did you ever get in touch with Jim McCarthy by the way Dale?