Prog 1693 - Aces High

[radiator]

In the case of Chopper I think it was deliberately left ambiguous, so if they wanted to bring him back, they could. And they did.

[Will I. Cooling]

[What you mean like when they resurrected The Dark Judges,

You cannot resssurrect what did not truly live.  And the whole point of Rogue Trooper was that he could be resurrected/re-gened.

But aside from that, a good point.  The resurrections of Chopper and the Angels were nothing but regrettable, IMHO, not leats because having done it Wagner dropped them like a hot potato.  

I dunno...I don't see how you could read the end of Judge Death Lives as anything other than [spoiler]the death of The Dark Judges[/spoiler]

[Will I. Cooling]

What you mean like when they resurrected The Dark Judges, Mean Machine Angle, Rogue Trooper, the rest of the Angle Family etc etc

To be fair though, thats 4 examples you've named there, in 3 decades of comics, and I can't really think of many etc's. Plus, theyw ere probably not the most popular of decisions where they? Except perhaps the Dark Judges.

I'd agree that this is a slippery slope and don't really want to see 2000ad go any further down it.  I'd been giving this story the benefit of the doubt until now but I have to say that the Ho Gan line did seem a little bit off. A one line dismissal of an awful lot of work, some of it very good.

I may be on thin ice here but I'm gonna say that if this was anyone other than John Wagner I don't think it would be getting cut quite so much slack.  Even if he had intended to use the Dogs characters but couldn't, did he really need to then dismiss it quite so totally?

I'm afraid that this story is starting to leave a little bit of a sour taste.

I'll be back later with a review of the rest of the prog. Just had to jump into this little debate before it moved on.

I don't think resurrection is a big problem if its used sparingly. If Wagner has a good idea to bring Alpha back then I'm sure it'll work...just the same as he had good ideas for Mean Machine and The Dark Judges and they worked. If he doesn't have a good idea then it won't work...just like Chopper and The Angel Family.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Aye, Mean Machine's second ending made up for his first one - finally rehabilitated on Dredd's 50th year on the streets.  a happy ending - who'd have thought it?  That said. let dead characters stay dead, i say.

[Colin YNWA]

I think the Drak Judges are so entwined in the supernatural and well... death they get a pass for me and could come back as they please by whatever hockum a writer comes up with. Not that I particularly want them to but they defo get a pass on the being dead shouldn't come back thing.

[TordelBack]

I dunno...I don't see how you could read the end of Judge Death Lives as anything other than [spoiler]the death of The Dark Judges[/spoiler]

Oh aye, you're not wrong, but being undead superfiends from a twisted dimension they have a certain amount of leeway in coming back from the dead!

[mogzilla]

loved the dredd this week! though not entirely sure they'd really have spared maybe that boy has a habit of escaping and now he could bring down justice dept with a casual " i was the mayor and killed a lot of people and the judges knew and covered it up " and you'd a thought he'd have had a face change by now ...

the rest of the prog is hit and miss with me nice to see sin dex back and as much as i love a slow burner strontium dog is like one of those cheap disposable bbqs that never catch light chuck some lighter fluid on it !!! i for one am in the hope alpha's alive camp especially since reading the death from the library recently which to me didnt seem right...hell, why cant he come back (or never really been dead ) it is a sci fi comic after all

[Aaron A Aardvark]

I don't mind the Ho Gan stuff, possibly because I wasn't reading 2000 AD at the time. Same with the Angel Gang. I was around for Chopper's resurrection which was a dark, dark day for Tharg.

If Wagner's found a clever way to bring JA back, then so be it, but IMO he should stay dead.

[Leigh S]

I may be on thin ice here but I'm gonna say that if this was anyone other than John Wagner I don't think it would be getting cut quite so much slack.  Even if he had intended to use the Dogs characters but couldn't, did he really need to then dismiss it quite so totally?

I agree with you on that point, but for me thats the point which actually makes the story acceptable, rahter than not. If someone else ws doing it, i'd be utterly disinterested.  

I havent read any American comics to really be embittered of the fake death/easy resurrection route they take.  But for me, theres still a world of difference. Superman created by Siegel and Schuster (?) in the 30s has become a brand, a franchise. 1000s of different people have worked on the character over 100s of continuity conflicting issues with their own outlook and agenda for the characters.

Meanwhile, you have  a character that is the creation of two men - Wagner and Ezquerra - that was taken out into a field and shot for dubious reasons in a dubious story that neither man had nay ahnd in.  

If you are feeling uneasy about this new story, thats only a part of how uneasy I've felt about teh Final solution, for 20 years!  

I think Wagner has played a risky game in even going there with the Final Solution, but as creator, I cant deny him that right and feel that its his perogative to say what did and didnt happen to his characters *

Or to put it another way, I feel your unease at the hoops Wagner is having to go through here, but they are hoops not of his making.

* OK, so Alan Grant did a lot of co-writing with Wagner, but frankly, i'm of the opinion , given 20 years of Alan Grant solo stuff, that I'd trust Wagner at the end of the day to have the  final say

[Robin Low]

Or to put it another way, I feel your unease at the hoops Wagner is having to go through here, but they are hoops not of his making.

At this early stage, I think he's ignoring the hoops altogether. Taking the story forward from The Final Solution is pretty easy; taking it forward from Strontium Dogs and Durham Red would have been an interesting challenge.


Regards

Robin

[Judge Olde]

[What you mean like when they resurrected The Dark Judges,

You cannot resssurrect what did not truly live.  And the whole point of Rogue Trooper was that he could be resurrected/re-gened.

But aside from that, a good point.  The resurrections of Chopper and the Angels were nothing but regrettable, IMHO, not leats because having done it Wagner dropped them like a hot potato.  

The Dark Judges were good for a few more outings, but Tharg over cooked them & Death became some stupid shadow character of his former self.

Rogue Trooper was over used & over done long before I think they killed him off & then we got a different GI Fr1day & then the other one with one eye. When Gunner, Bagman & Helm died - they were dead. No re-gene. They were chips... amounts to rebooting or stretching his once excellent blueness to a very weak & over used character. RT was the last of the GI's... haha - in the same way that in Highlander 'There can only be one' with several sequels & a TV show...

I'm rambling now, sorry.

JA should be & maybe is dead. But the story needs some umph & finding out he's still dead equates to a lame story, even from the mighty JW. The title of the story doesn't mean for one minute JA might not 'as-if-by-magic' or 'Dallas' be back from the dead. Feral also is both written & drawn badly in this story. JW has written some average stories before & this one looks like it might just be another of those.

Chopper. I'd like to see a decent story for him, but think he's had his day now most likely & best he rest in peace.

Pub calls. Leaves 

[Jared Katooie]

In the case of Chopper I think it was deliberately left ambiguous, so if they wanted to bring him back, they could. And they did.

I think Wagner left Chopper's fate ambiguous for the sake of the story rather than to have the option of bringing back the character.

Then Ennis fecked it up.

I really liked The Big Meg though. I thought it had a great ending, with a completely different tone to Song of the Surfer.

[Leigh S]

Or to put it another way, I feel your unease at the hoops Wagner is having to go through here, but they are hoops not of his making.

At this early stage, I think he's ignoring the hoops altogether. Taking the story forward from The Final Solution is pretty easy; taking it forward from Strontium Dogs and Durham Red would have been an interesting challenge.


Regards

Robin

Yeah, to some degree, though its not all plain sailing even to this limited point - he's had to call into question the biggy - the onscreen death, and pretty much scribble over Feral to sell that idea. And thats before we get to any further revelations.

Personally, while i dont really "believe" (!) in Final solution, I was perfectly happy with the flashbacks - theres a lot of character developemnt you can do within these - i think Traitor to his kind in particular hit a rich thread of what you can do to show your flashback hero in a different/interesting light.  I think Wagner could ahve mined that stuff for years.  I'm kind of hoping for an ambiguous ending for this one.  Just getting the message out that maybe he's out there.  Then a couple of flashbacks, and suddenly a story where the flashback ties in to Alphas post FS fate when you least expect it and whammo - job done. 

Its interesting to think that Aklpha lasted from prog 64 to 687(ish) so roughly 600 progs.

He then vanished for another 500 progs

Hes been flashing back for another 500 progs, almost as long as he was originally around for!
 

[Mardroid]

Cover- I like it. Who is the manga girl on the left though? (Quite unusual considering the realism employed in depicting the other characters.)

Dredd- Satisfactory ending. I guessed PJ wouldn't die, and that's probably a good thing considering what the character has to offer... but I'm sort of in two minds on this. I think Dredd leaving it to the last minute worked in it's favour though.

The Red Seas- Mmm. Okay.

Sinister Dexter- Not a whole lot happens but a good introductory episode. I don't know who the lady is either though.

Savage- Okay, but I agree considering the stupidity of the Volgans.

Strontium Dog- I overall liked it, although I'm not sure of the dismissal of 'Ho Gan's' stuff either (although to be fair I haven't read it). This episode actually had me chuckling out loud though. Some good silly comedy. I know Precious is sort of the straight character in this but this line, when the robocian tells them they're banned due to their 'proboscises', tickled me for some reason:
"THEY'RE ONLY VERY SMALL." And the masks. Hee hee! Maybe I'm just easily amused.

As for Feral... yeah, I hope they don't nullify all that's gone before, but that was certainly a twist. I'm sure very few of us didn't expect that. I disagree that he is depicted as a villain though. We just don't know what he is yet. (Sure he killed ship of people but we don't know the circumstances, and he said things got out of hand.)

And for those who aren't happy with a whole bunch of stories being 'unhappened', my view is, they were written, so they happened. Not in this timeline, perhaps, but, to borrow a line from Stephen King, "There are other worlds than these."

(Sorry, was that corny? ..)

To be fair, it's not something that should be made a habit of though otherwise story events lose their impact.

[TordelBack]

Cover- I like it. Who is the manga girl on the left though? (Quite unusual considering the realism employed in depicting the other characters.)

She's a Mangapore robot bodyguard/assassin thing, and thus she's meant to look like that.  I'm sure she'll be along next week.