The Political Thread

[Professor Bear]

I'd quite like to know where I can find this left wing echo chamber bubble everyone keeps talking about, as it sounds quite nice.

[IndigoPrime]

Tjm86: Media is a big problem right now. My dad in a couple of conversations has talked to me about "EU intransigence". It's pretty clear he's picked that up from TV news, given that it has no basis in objective reality. (And my dad voted remain, note. Which is probably just as well, because otherwise Mrs IP would probably have never spoken to him again.)

[Tjm86]

True but that is why more than anything else there is a profound need to read widely and critically.  Unfortunately there is a growing need to work to fill in the blanks left by editorial bias and the polemics of so many news sources.  When you factor in the use of social media as an authoritative news source you know we are in serious trouble.

I mean, could you imagine what Goebells might have done if he had access to Facebook?

[The Legendary Shark]

38degrees - Stop the Trial of 5G on the Isles of Scilly and Cornwall.

[Something Fishy]

Thank you Shark.  I was just talking to my son about this today (discussing the physics as he is doing a chem phys masters).

I did not realise they were about to trial it here though.

[Professor Bear]

If someone in the future is reading this - possibly some form of cockroach tasked with deciphering the language of the people of the corpse pits - and are wondering why we didn't even bother commenting on the fact that the fourth estate failed so badly in its duty that its responsibilities were assumed by Pamela Anderson: it's not that we didn't notice, it's just that we were past caring.

[The Legendary Shark]

It's not that we were past caring, it's that we voted people who only cared for themselves into power in the hope they'd do our caring for us.

By the time we realised our mistake, it was too late.

[Tjm86]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the more I think about it, the more encouraged I am by what is happening at present.

The current political situation is a mess but it has been for a looooong time.  As long as I can remember the British political system has created a sense of impotence.  My vote doesn't matter because politicians don't care about anyone but themselves.  Most politicians are parachuted into 'safe' seats that favour one party or another and independents only get a shot when parties screw up royally.  Governments do what they want and no one really can do much about it except accept it ...  Pretty bleak and nihilistic really.

Then there is the unexamined growth of disturbing groups and movements that threaten individuals and communities.  The likes of the EDL and NF, of their offspring and similar groups, has been a largely unexamined phenomenon.  Except now they are subject to the cold hard light of scrutiny.  Farage is being exposed for the half-wit he is by his constant pronouncements.  Yaxley-Lennon manages to show himself for the thug he is when he responds to ridicule over his attempt to intimidate and provoke. 

There is a very real debate going on at the moment about the sort of media, politics, leadership, society etc we want to live in.  Sharkey's utopian idealism may not be to everyone's taste but it is at least part of the process.  Everything is up for grabs, all ideas are open for discussion, all options are on the table.  Politicians have finally shown that they cannot be continually left to their own devices but need to be challenged more.  Journalists can no longer carry on the same lazy way, allowing their reporting to be distorted by editorial bias.  Anyone who wants to step up to the plate has got to be willing and able to justify their positions, to engage with opponents.

So maybe I am being a little optimistic here.  Maybe I am idealistic.  I just see a real opportunity here to address some of the problems and mistakes we have made.  We really do live in 'interesting times'.

[TordelBack]

True dat, Tjm. Although I fear we no longer have the time needed for the mass of ignorant ageing scrotes to die of natural causes.

I do wish people (or their blankets) would stop quoting Cromwell in defence of civil and political liberties.  He was Not A Nice Man, and very many of His Ideas And Actions Were Very Bad. It's akin to citing Mussolini in order to criticise frequent delays on your local commuter train.

See also: Churchill, Mother Teresa, the 5thC BCE city-state of Sparta.

[sheridan]

I do wish people (or their blankets) would stop quoting Cromwell in defence of civil and political liberties.  He was Not A Nice Man, and very many of His Ideas And Actions Were Very Bad. It's akin to citing Mussolini in order to criticise frequent delays on your local commuter train.

See also: Churchill, Mother Teresa, the 5thC BCE city-state of Sparta.

You must mix in different political bubbles than I - what are they saying about Cromwell?  I always thought he was the bad guy, though I did grow up on The Adventures of Luther Arkwright.

[IAMTHESYSTEM]

Cromwell devastated Ireland his attacks killing between 25%-40% of the Countries then population. He also imported settlers to Northern Ireland to ensure compliance and eliminate the threat of any Catholic uprising. We all know how well that turned out. Cromwell, did, however, destroy the Medieval world and the Divine Right of Kings forever ushering in a new age of politics. The arbitrary whim of Rulers became history, Kings or the powerful must consider the will of their communities before any action. It struck me as strange how many on the left of British Politics who professed themselves to be 'Revolutionaries' were terrified of Oliver Cromwell, an English Revolutionary. That's because many of them came from cities or Industrial areas, often with Catholic connections or communities none too keen to remember how Cromwell brought through fire, bloodshed and the sword a Revolution that saw their Faith and those who practised it as the enemy. Understandably so. Even now I've heard that one Labour Politician regularly turns the bust of Oliver Cromwell in the Houses of Parliament to face the wall. Almost 400 years later Oliver Cromwell still frightens the Country he killed so many for to preserve. Who says History doesn't matter eh?

[TordelBack]

I was referring primarily to Pamela Anderson's Assange-visit blanket, which seems to reference Cromwell's attack on the appalling prison treatment of the Leveller John Lilburne (the latter most recently appropriated by the Freeman movement).

But more generally I see Cromwell quotes everywhere, "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken" , "subtlety may deceive you, integrity never will",  etc, and generally cited as a hammer of establishment tyranny and champion of democracy and personal liberty. With a big statue outside the Houses of Parliament to prove it.

Which as IAMTHESYSTEM documents above is not what his record would support.

Or a reading of Luther Arkwright, now that you mention it!

[TordelBack]

TL;DR version: get a better class of hero, Britain!

[IndigoPrime]

Quite what the fuck Pamela Anderson was thinking, I've no idea. Presumably, she wasn't. Assange is a problem, in various ways. There are issues with whistleblowing and the US, but I'm also baffled at people who see him as a hero in a black-and-white scenario. Many of his releases put people in direct danger, for no good reason. (Ego.) He is accused of rape in Sweden. But then ex-Baywatch celeb goes all "he's the most innocent person ever". Why the fuck did he hide in a bloody embassy, then? (Extradition to the US? The UK and Sweden would have had to have agreed to that. Unlikely.)

[Professor Bear]

Does this mean Chelsea Manning deserves to be held without trial and tortured for showing solidarity with Assange?  I mean, if he's bad then she shouldn't be helping him.

It's not that we were past caring, it's that we voted people who only cared for themselves into power in the hope they'd do our caring for us.

No, I'm definately past caring.  Whatever comes next, we deserve it.