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Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 618874 times)

House of Usher

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #60 on: 12 April, 2010, 06:58:07 pm »
I don't think opening your borders up totally is a sensible thing to do unilaterally. At the moment EU countries have an obligation to accept their share of refugees. If we had no border controls all those refugees, and the torturers and murderers they're running from, as well as any chancer with no education and no marketable skills who's doing badly in their own country, would come straight to Britain instead of making a few stop-offs on the continent along the way. The message would be "don't just come to Europe, come to Britain." Needless to say it wouldn't make us popular with our neighbours. You know how unpopular the French are with Britain for maintaining detention centres on its northern sea border, seen as a way to channel France's own illegal immigrants over to neighbouring countries? That would be us.

This may as well have been a party election broadcast for UKIP, I know.
« Last Edit: 12 April, 2010, 07:24:55 pm by House of Usher »
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The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #61 on: 12 April, 2010, 07:21:21 pm »
Fix the economies of the world by taking back the right of governments to print their own money and the cost of immigration and the reasons behind it (and most other problems such as housing, health care, public spending etc) tend to evaporate. Keeping everyone arguing about the problem (in this case, immigration) and not the cause (hollow banking) is just one example of what all political parties are about. This is the politics of distraction.

The Prime Minister can be seen as the captain of the ship of state. Once the passengers (the electorate) elect a captain and crew (PM and MPs), the ship is redecorated, the way the ship is run is altered, the shift patterns and responsibilities of the crew are tweaked, new rules and regulations are put into place, the decks are swabbed etc, etc, etc - but the course of the ship is not altered. Some years later, a new captain and crew are elected who change everything back again, but the course of the ship is still not altered. This is the politics of distraction.

House of Usher

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #62 on: 12 April, 2010, 07:29:12 pm »
Fix the economies of the world by taking back the right of governments to print their own money and the cost of immigration and the reasons behind it tend to evaporate.

Ah, but now you're laying down the steps necessary as a precondition for totally open borders. Fix the economies of the world (that's only about 195 nation states) and then we can talk about the abolition of border controls. And nation states, for that matter.
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The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #63 on: 12 April, 2010, 07:41:09 pm »
I wouldn't want to abolish any Nation State. National Sovereignty is up to the populace of a country and not to be dictated by others. Once one Nation State, or a group thereof, begins interfering in the affairs of others we arrive at Iraq. Whether a country wants open borders or not is up to that country, irrespective of whether they print their own money or not.

Peter Wolf

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #64 on: 12 April, 2010, 08:40:36 pm »
So if they are not Racist then why are they just as bad as the BNP ?

If nothing else, the fuss they made about the veil earlier in the year was a calculated attempt to woo racists and stir up fear and prejudice for their own benefit.

And even should I choose to ignore seriously despicable behaviour like that, I still think they stink, because the tossers apparently want to restore imperial measurements, and are sceptical of climate change. I think this county is scientifically illiterate as it is, and really doesn't need a political party encouraging it.

What I don't understand, Peter, is why you're happy to spread the most outrageous conspiracy theories about the mainstream parties as though they might be true, yet can't accept that a party whose raison d'etre is fear of foreigners might be a wee bit racist.

Regards

Robin

All my info on the mainstream parties namely New Labour checks out and while i am at it Harriet Harman is an apologist/sympathiser for paedophiles and once campaigned on their behalf.You can google that as its well documented and true.

I dont think that UKIP are sceptical of climate change per se as that would be absurd as i dont know anyone who is sceptical of climate change  :lol: only the causes of climate change namely the CO2 scam which is what i am sceptical of.

Imperial measurements alongside metric.I still work in imperial and i will continue to do so but i also work in metric.Personally i dont see that as very important. :lol:

Your final point about UKIPs reason d'etre being fear of foreigners which is Xenophobia.

Its good that you say that because there is a difference beteween Xenophobia and Racism but the veil incident isnt enough to make me not consider voting for UKIP.


The arguments about immigration should be based on economics and numbers only which they are.

UKIP immigration policy itself is not racist as they clearly say that EVERYONE will be treated the same regardless of race or nationality.They also propose to regain control of UK borders and introduce a points system.The UK has only recently lost control of its borders and prior to that there has been plenty of immigration when the /UK had a points system/border control.

SO therefore UKIPs immigration policy is LESS discriminatory than the UK present immigration policy.

UKIPs reason d'etre is to campaign against the EU and it always has been.

If UKIPS policies are not racist or discriminatory then they are not racists and thats what i have to go on rather than isolated incidents or a minority of racists or xenophobes who may or may not reside in or support the party.



 For one thing, research continues to demonstrate how a strong migrant workforce helps an economoy thrive rather than nose-dive.  


Thats such a generalised statement i dont know where to start but its partly true but it can just as easily have a negative effect but mostly on the workforce as it can drive down labour costs across the board as it has done in the construction industry because employers will often take advantage of cheap labour therefore driving down labour costs throughout the industry and more than once i have lost work because of ridiculously cheap prices offered by cheap immigrant labour that i cant compete with or i refuse to.






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HOO-HAA

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #65 on: 12 April, 2010, 09:51:20 pm »
The Prime Minister can be seen as the captain of the ship of state. Once the passengers (the electorate) elect a captain and crew (PM and MPs), the ship is redecorated, the way the ship is run is altered, the shift patterns and responsibilities of the crew are tweaked, new rules and regulations are put into place, the decks are swabbed etc, etc, etc - but the course of the ship is not altered. Some years later, a new captain and crew are elected who change everything back again, but the course of the ship is still not altered. This is the politics of distraction.

Wow, I love it! Again, well put, Shark  :)
« Last Edit: 12 April, 2010, 09:55:50 pm by HOO-HAA »

House of Usher

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #66 on: 12 April, 2010, 09:55:25 pm »
I think you are too.
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The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #67 on: 12 April, 2010, 10:57:02 pm »
Thanks, Hoo! I am liking for my explainings to clearly be, and understood with ease.

Jared Katooie

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #68 on: 12 April, 2010, 11:21:17 pm »
I keep checking back on this thread, expecting it to have degenerated into childish squabbling and vicious personal attacks. But... nothing.

Must try harder, people.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #69 on: 12 April, 2010, 11:39:39 pm »
Get stuffed.












 :lol:

Peter Wolf

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #70 on: 12 April, 2010, 11:51:48 pm »
I wouldn't want to abolish any Nation State. National Sovereignty is up to the populace of a country and not to be dictated by others. Once one Nation State, or a group thereof, begins interfering in the affairs of others we arrive at Iraq. Whether a country wants open borders or not is up to that country, irrespective of whether they print their own money or not.


It just doesnt make any sense to me to give up the right to self govern or hand over power/give up sovereignty to another centralised ruling body.Its even worse when you are subjegated by pro EU fifth columnists [New Labour]

I challenge anyone to make a good argument for it.

I cant think of any.

Its going to cost the UK taxpayer 650 million to help bail out Greece because of EU Collectivism.

This a good idea anyone ?

This is just one example.



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House of Usher

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #71 on: 13 April, 2010, 07:58:40 am »
It just doesnt make any sense to me to give up the right to self govern or hand over power/give up sovereignty to another centralised ruling body.

When you've got two commentators advocating the opening of boarders in the name of anarchism, in a world where immigration isn't a problem because every country's economy has been fixed, we're not talking about giving up sovereignty to a centralised ruling body, we're talking about the voluntary dissolution of government.

I wouldn't want to abolish any Nation State. National Sovereignty is up to the populace of a country and not to be dictated by others. Whether a country wants open borders or not is up to that country, irrespective of whether they print their own money or not.

I don't know how you would maintain the existence of a nation state with no borders and no government. I think the country that adopts anarchist principles of government will soon be at numerous kinds of disadvantage relative to its neighbours and would soon find itself annexed.
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Colin MacNeil

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #72 on: 13 April, 2010, 10:05:58 am »
This is indeed a very interesting thread. Here are some thoughts.


The arguments about immigration should be based on economics and numbers only which they are.


Immigration based on economics only? Bollocks! So you would put money before principles then? How about slavery then? Let's bring back serfdom. How about keeping the poor poor? Let's just farm a workforce, a la brave new world. It would be good for the economy. Money is not our reason for being, it is just a mechanism for trade.
I have no problems with people coming to this country, so long as they become us and support us, believe in what we believe in and add to the life of this nation. If they want to come here and be themselves and set up their own churches, communities etc. Then they can fuck off! Immigrants, yes. Colonists, no.
Numbers! I have no children, I have no desire for them, but I still care about my country even after my death. Unlimited immigration will only lead to this country being very, very overcrowded. It already is in my opinion. What do you want, your descendents to live in Mega-city UK, or a clean and calm country where people can enjoy the wonderous natural landscape of these treasured isles? Do you want your descendents to wait in line for their meagre weekly ration of soylent red, white and blue, or a place where everyone can have a free and healthy life without want?

I think alot of people know that I'm Scottish and that I believe in an independant Scottish state. Yup, I'm an SNP voter. Though I don't agree with all their policies, I still vote for them. They are by and large a bunch of pinko lefty liberals who try and massage the cocks of public opinion and political correctness (like every other party it seems). However, for me they do offer the best avenue for my own political beliefs. ie an independant Scotland.
Whatever everyone does. Vote. An imperfect choice is better than no choice at all.

Rant over. :)

I really shouldn't read stuff about politics and opinion, it sets me off! My wife has already banned me from watching the news on the telly. I have no idea why! :D

Peter Wolf

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #73 on: 13 April, 2010, 11:12:53 am »
It just doesnt make any sense to me to give up the right to self govern or hand over power/give up sovereignty to another centralised ruling body.

When you've got two commentators advocating the opening of boarders in the name of anarchism, in a world where immigration isn't a problem because every country's economy has been fixed, we're not talking about giving up sovereignty to a centralised ruling body, we're talking about the voluntary dissolution of government.





My comment was about handing over power to the EU and not in reply to anyone elses comments.I quoted LS but i wasnt replying to it.I quoted it simply because he was talking about nation states and i agreed with what he said.

No worries though as the EU cant even answer that question themselves beyond saying that it makes the EU more "Efficient" and "streamlined".

« Last Edit: 13 April, 2010, 11:18:42 am by Peter Wolf »
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HOO-HAA

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #74 on: 13 April, 2010, 12:55:07 pm »
I have no problems with people coming to this country, so long as they become us and support us, believe in what we believe in and add to the life of this nation. If they want to come here and be themselves and set up their own churches, communities etc. Then they can fuck off! Immigrants, yes. Colonists, no.

I have a big problem with that statement - it suggests a kind of protectionism which I think breeds contempt and often leads to civil unrest. People being allowed to conduct their lives the way they wish, whether at home or abroad, is part of a solution to me as opposed to part of a problem.