Celebrity Catfight: Mills v. Moorcock

[Peter Wolf]

Sigh........pfffffff........

 I wish you had made it clear that you were referring to my flippant and perhaps stupid comment about the Guardian letter writers etc.It would have saved the bother of typing 4 sentences defending Pat Mills and Invasion and Savage and the context in which they were written and presented in a comic and all my previous comments that were related to it.

Phew !!! Nearly won an argument there !!

It was a flippant comment posted after losing a previous post while not exactly being in the best of moods at the time of posting

Never mind all that though lets get to the important bit.

 Since you have changed the topic a little bit and have disregarded the worthy bits of my comment previously then i will answer the nonsense that you have just posted in reply and i will be as reasonable as possible.

I will explain myself on demand.

Left Wing politics :I wasnt starting an argument about political ideology.I was commenting in return to a letter printed in 1977.They have their opinion.I have mine.You also dont need to remind me about how huge a subject it is thanks.Glad you made the comment regarding The Daily Mail and its readership.Thanks for being objective there.I am not a Daily Mail reader but i do read the odd article in it and i dont object to some of the political articles written in it either.I often do object to other content.I also do read the Guardian but not as a whole.If my attention is drawn to an article in it then i read and sometimes i agree with it and sometimes i dont.Same with the Independant or the Telegraph.

I use the term Nazi as a term of abuse in certain cases and do so fairly often the same as Communist in certain cases.I oppose both ideologies.

I am not part of any politically polarised newspaper readership war or rivalry.

Beardy :See above I:E Flippant and stupid etc.

Sandals :I wear flip flops all the time if thats any defence .I have the right to criticise myself for doing so and anyone else as much as i like .I do the same with people who wear baseball caps back to front or who wear baggy jeans that look like they are about to fall down.Its not illegal yet.

I was asked to leave an R.E class at school once for asking the teacher why Sandals are called Jesus Creepers ?

Try not to take everything so seriously.

Child development :Its ridiculous to say i have a problem with the subject of Child Development.Of course it is an important worthy subject that is of great importance.I didnt say anything to the contrary in my post.I was referring to one individual whos views i dont agree with in this very specific instance and further to that i explained why quite clearly.This individuals opinion is not set in stone and there may be many others who do or dont think the same thing or have an entirely different opinion on it.I posted mine.Apologies for not making it clear that it wasnt a sweeping generalisation or criticism about an entire subject or CD lecturers.

"ah, I think* we're getting to the heart of it now."

[*Try not to do that so much    Is that the time ??

See how selflessly i gave my time to answer anothers queries.

[Proudhuff]

Dandontdare try this...

'This post was made by peterwolf who is currently on your ignore list.'

It makes this board the most heavenly place!!!


From a Clean shaven, boot wearing, Lefty, non-Jaffa, Office worker.

[Peter Wolf]

Dandontdare try this...

'This post was made by peterwolf who is currently on your ignore list.'

It makes this board the most heavenly place!!!


From a Clean shaven, boot wearing, Lefty, non-Jaffa, Office worker.

Please do !!!

[ThryllSeekyr]

On the subject of comparisons drawn between Elric of Elwhere (Pat MIlls version) and Elfric of Melniboné (Michael Moorecock's version.) Apart from closeness of the names, I don't think that there would be much to compare except for some superficial features.

Of course, they're both sorcercer's, but Elric's stronger than most berzerkers and the other is a albino, insipid to point of needing regular doses of herbal concoction s to remain conscious. I think this where this character is actualley been compared to Dragonlance 's Raistlin.

Though I can longer find any reference to the Pat Mills or other version I 'm sure I've read from this exccerpt on a earlier occasion.  

References to Elric in popular culture
In the Babylon 5 episode "The Geometry of Shadows", the leader of the Technomage order is named Elric in what Michael Moorcock called "clearly straight homage"[14] to his Elric novels.
In the second to last episode of the TV show Alias, entitled "Reprisal", the password for one of computer engineer's Marshall Flinkman's programs is revealed to be "Moonglum of Elwher". [15]
Elric appeared in a two-part Conan the Barbarian comic book adventure entitled "A Sword Called Stormbringer!" and "The Green Empress of Melniboné", written by Roy Thomas, based on a story plotted by Michael Moorcock and James Cawthorn that appeared in Conan the Barbarian. [16]
The Elric character is affectionately parodied in the Cerebus the Aardvark graphic novels by Dave Sim, as Elrod of Melvinbone, the Albino. Sim's drawing of Elrod follows Smith's drawing of Elric in Conan the Barbarian, which in turn was based on the US Lancer paperback covers by Jack Gaughan, complete with "tall pointy hat". [17]
Elric was parodied in the humorous comic strip Thrud the Barbarian. The character Eric of Bonemalone, bearer of the cursed sword Stoatbringer, appeared in the story "The Three Tasks of Thrud". Published in White Dwarf #57 (September 1984). Author / Artist: Carl Critchlow.
Karl Edward Wagner wrote a short story, "The Gothic Touch", in which his immortal antihero Kane enlists the aid of Elric and Moonglum, which can be found in Michael Moorcock's Elric: Tales of the White Wolf (ISBN 1565041755) and in Wagner's Exorcisms and Ecstasies (ISBN 1878252283).[18]
Michael Moorcock received a songwriting credit for the Blue Öyster Cult song "Black Blade". Blue Öyster Cult notes on their website that lyrical collaborations with Moorcock "inspired ... 'Black Blade'". [19][20] He has also co-written "Veteran of the Psychic Wars", inspired by the Elric stories.
Elric's nickname "the White Wolf" inspired White Wolf, Inc. Founders Steven and Stewart Wieck were fans of the character, and named their roleplaying game magazine, and later their company, after him.[21]
UK space rock band Hawkwind released the studio album The Chronicle of the Black Sword in 1985, based upon the Elric stories. An expanded live album (Live Chronicles) was released in 1986 and includes several spoken-word links by author Michael Moorcock, appearing on-stage as narrator. The live show, complete with mime artist dressed as Elric, was also released on VHS and DVD as The Chronicle of the Black Sword"
Author Neil Gaiman wrote a short story called "One Life, Furnished in Early Moorcock'" about a troubled boy who loves the stories about Elric, and finds escape from the everyday world in them. The story was published in the short story collection Smoke and Mirrors.

Quoted from the Wikipedia Entry for " Efric of Melniboné" here.

//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elric_of_Melnibon%C3%A9

The entry must have been omended since then.

[Sefton Disney]

Borag Thungg!

As always, many thanks to everyone who took the time to respond - but, please, remember to play nice, guys!

So Michael Moorcock's beef was basically that he didn't work for 2000AD but some of the writers he sort-of met had ideas that were a bit similar to his? And that a comic aimed at 10 year old boys wasn't sophisticated as a political statement? And we all know what a infamous fascist propagandist Pat Mills is! From a man as intelligent as Moorcock obviously is, I don't know if his comments are funny or sad.

Considering the success he was enjoying at the time with New Worlds, maybe he should have created his own comic?

(It's always worth remembering that the British SF establishment, of which Moorcock was definitely a part, whatever he thinks, was incredibly jealous, snide and unhelpful towards 2000AD when it launched. The only exception was Harry Harrison, who had actually worked in comics, and is very fond of the Stainless Steel Rat strips 2000AD later ran.)

I'm not surprised I've never been able to read more than 40 pages of one of Moorcock's books, though.

Once again, many thanks for all the replies.

Credo!

- Sefton Disney

[Peter Wolf]

"From a Clean shaven, boot wearing, Lefty, non-Jaffa, Office worker."

 

I am "non- Jaffa" as well in the sense that i am not an Orange.

If i was a fruit i would be a Pineapple rather than a Watermelon.

[Peter Wolf]

I used to have an A3 or even bigger sized 5 - 6 page Elric comic book or story in pictures as the term of description - comic  doesnt really fit.A couple of the pages were one large single panel.It was all in B+W.

It was very early 70s and it had a purple cover with white text.

I say "used to have" because i cant find it anywhere even though i know i never got rid of it.

[Arkwright99]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread from the bowels of the Nerve Centre, but the following might be of interest to Peter Wolf if no-one else:

I used to have an A3 or even bigger sized 5 - 6 page Elric comic book or story in pictures as the term of description - comic  doesnt really fit.A couple of the pages were one large single panel.It was all in B+W.

It was very early 70s and it had a purple cover with white text.

I say "used to have" because i cant find it anywhere even though i know i never got rid of it.

That would probably be Elric: The Return to Melniboné, which was an over-sized 'comic' originally published in France (as a B&W portfolio) by Philippe Druillet with text by Michel Demuth as Le Saga d'Elric le Necromancien:


Druillet was not authorised to produce an Elric 'comic' but when Bill Butler of Unicorn Books decided to put together an English version with text by Moorcock, Druillet threatened to sue. As Moorcock later recounted:

"I'd told [Bill Butler] to contact Druillet to get permission and the idiot didn't do it. Next thing I know he's showing me about five hundred pages of a typical French legal document in which Philip was suing him. This meant an Expedition to France in my old -- I mean my old -- white Nash. A Saga I ought to write about some time. Trux did the lion's share of the driving and I did my best to keep calm the babbling Bill Butler. Also aboard were Sophie and Katie (my girls), my freshly born son Max, Hilary and Fiona (at the time Trux's girl friend) and me all setting out to try to sort the matter out. I suggested that I take Philip and a friend with us to dinner to talk the matter over and try for an amicable settlement. I also had one or two of my close French friends along. As it turned out a lot of others decided to come to the dinner and I wound up paying more than Bill would have had to pay PD in the first place. I learned later that certain unfriendly souls, including Michel Demuth, who had written, I believe the French text and who had seemed happy enough to dine that night, were accusing me of 'vulgarity' for paying for the meal. Given that they hadn't offered to chip in and hadn't been invited, I found this somewhat uncool. As it happened, they reported their views to Hilary (then my estranged wife) presumably thinking to endear themselves better to her. She remembered the evening well and laid into them in a way they hadn't expected. I believe the word 'freeloaders' passed her lips. Anyway, it was an insane evening and Bill, who was flakey at the best of times, didn't help by dismissing Philip's righteous anger and suggesting that he publish some MORE of his work. I was eventually able to affect a compromise in which we both agreed not to publish the story in any form, Philip for a reasonable time, Bill never again. Philip and I were on reasonable terms thereafter and poor Bill, of course, died in his sleep..."

As you can see from the page above, the Unicorn edition wasn't black and white inside but instead was printed in purple ink. Due to the fact that it wasn't reprinted* and only 500 copies may have been printed in the first place, The Return to Melniboné is one of the rarer - and consequently more valuable - pieces of Moorcockian fiction.

*In 1997, Jayde Design were granted a special dispensation by Moorcock and Druillet to produce a second printing, although this featured a white cover and B&W interiors.

As for the Mills/Moorcock thing, I think Mills has certainly plundered Moorcock's toybox for his own ends. For instance, the masked Termites of Nemesis are lifted straight from the masked armies of the Granbretan Empire in Moorcock's 'Hawkmoon' novels. In fact, the early Nemesis strips, with evil humans and good aliens, is not entirely dissimilar to Moorcock's own inversion of cultural stereotypes with the heroic Germanic Hawkmoon opposing the evil British Dark Empire. (Nemesis himself isn't entirely uninfluenced I think by the Chaos-affiliated sorcerer-king Elric for that matter.) I suspect Mills was a reader of Moorcock's sf/fantasy novels in the '60s & '70s and when Moorcock criticised what Mills was doing with 2000AD it rankled somewhat, hence his 'digs' at Moorcock with Orlic and Elfric later on. I also suspect that Moorcock left his issues with 2000AD behind him in 1977, whereas Mills - judging by his comments - continued to brood on it for some years afterwards.

I have been around a bit but dont really associate Micheal Moorcock with comics.

I do associate Pat Mills with comics especially 2000ad.

If you don't associate Moorcock with comics then that might be because most of his comics work for Fleetway dates from the sixties when he was writings strips such as 'Olac the Gladiator', 'Karl the Viking', 'Dogfight Dixon', 'Kit Carson', 'Skid Solo', 'Zip Nolan', etc. (yep, I hadn't heard of them either) for I think Lion and Valiant at a time when comic strips weren't credited to writers or artists so it's a period of his career that is shrouded in some mystery over forty years later. According to legend, Moorcock left Fleetway after a terrible row which culminated in him throwing a typewriter out of the window.

Then, in 1979, with Howard Chaykin, Moorcock produced one of the earliest proto-graphic novels with The Swords of Heaven, the Flowers of Hell. In more recent years he has written for Alan Moore's Tom Strong and with Walt Simonson produced the graphic novels, Michael Moorcock's Multiverse and Elric: The Making of a Sorcerer, both published by DC Comics in 1999 and 2006 respectively. Also for DC, Moorcock wrote an internal editorial 'bible' which laid out how 'magic' works in the DCU so there would be a consistency across their various titles. The point I'm making I guess is that Moorcock's association with comics does span some five decades, even if he obviously had far less impact on the evolution of British comics than Mills, without whom etc., etc...

[locustsofdeath!]

The only experience I have with Michael Moorcock in comics was the 2-part Elric/Conancrossover early on in Marvel's Conan the Barbarian series. It was a mess.

I am not positive, but I believe the Elric comics were adapted by Roy Thomas.

Personally I prefer Moorcock's writings to Mill's comic, but I like both!

[Arkwright99]

The only experience I have with Michael Moorcock in comics was the 2-part Elric/Conancrossover early on in Marvel's Conan the Barbarian series. It was a mess.

The Elric/Conan issues were only 'plotted' by Moorcock & long-time collaborator James Cawthorn; Roy Thomas actually scripted them. Incidentally, the artist, Barry Windsor-Smith, drew Elric with a long pointy hat because he'd only seen Jack Gaughan's covers for a couple of Elric books Lancer had published in the US and he thought that was what the character looked like. Moorcock had hated Gaughan's 'pointy hat' however. Later when Dave Sim introduced his Elric pastiche Elrod of Melvinbone in Cerebus the Aardvark he based his designs on BWS's Conan comics, so the 'pointy hat' returned! Moorcock is on record as liking the Sim pastiche though.

I am not positive, but I believe the Elric comics were adapted by Roy Thomas.

Roy Thomas adapted the first five Elric novels for Pacific/First Comics in the '80s without any involvement by Moorcock afaik; however Moorcock pulled the licence before the final novel, Stormbringer could be done because the quality of the art had got progressively worse over the series. P. Craig Russell eventually adapted Stormbringer, for Dark Horse in the '90s. I have to say it's pretty much the only Elric adaptation worth owning imo.

[OpusAndBill]

Elric also appeared in Star*Reach #6 (from 1976) as well as the excellent Dreaming City, by Roy Thomas/P. Craig Russell, which appeared in Epic #3 & 4 (1980). The art did deteriorate over the subsequent (esp. First) appearances, but the issues are just about worth picking up.

My memory of the early Invasion strips from back in the day was that it was the weakest strip in the book, I'm afraid. Just a shoot-em-up and a very quick read. Flesh, Shako, Dredd, Harlem's Heroes, Dan Dare were all much better story and art-wise and were what really excited me at the time.