Is there a definitive canon answer to the actual ammo capacity of the MK one and MK Two Lawgiver?
Jesus Christ no. It's not even clear what kind of bullets they shoot.
While your interest in Dredd is to be encouraged and appreciated, I'm concerned that you're not getting this. People do get a little caught up in Dredd continuity, but mostly that's just for fun or to drive a story. Continuity tends to be pretty loose on this strip.
The writers are just making things up as they go along, and ignoring past stuff whenever they feel like it.
What King Trout said!
However, if you want to explore these things in a non-canon way, all the various Dredd RPGs take a (different) stab at the Lawgiver's load-out, and how it might work. Often with diagrams!
Quote from: Trout on 05 January, 2017, 04:06:20 PM
The writers are just making things up as they go along, and ignoring past stuff whenever they feel like it.
Yep. The most notorious misstep in the history of the strip -
the restoration of Pa and Junior Angel - is an example of concentrating more on not spoiling a story you've told before than making sure the one you're
[1] telling now is as good as possible.
If the whole gang had just shown up again and told everyone not to worry about how or why, most readers would have gone with it
[2]. As long as the story was good.
[1] That's a collective 'you', including editorial.
[2] Only two of us have expressed any skepticism/curiosity regarding PJ Maybe's unlikely escape from the clutches of Death, Fear, Ginger and Posh
First off I am not a minutia geek wanting to know what Dreddies navel looks like, but I don't see what's wrong in trying to make sense of all the retcon that the strip has gone through. I for one look at the early Dredds as something written for children, but as we kids of the 70's grew so did Dredd. Out went the more ridiculous childish element and in came more worldly and adult themes. Is It too much to establish, as best as possible given 40 years of history, some sort of canon. Whether it be Lawgiver Mk1 & Mk2 capability, Dredds arthritis, how old he physically is because we of rejuv or that Walter the Wobot got permanently turned into a new range of Jistice approved sex toys! Feck sake I don't want to go down the shite route of American super hero comics nd keep resetting everything ad nauseam.
In retort and To finish I don't really appreciate being accused of being too involved in this character and his history. This is a Feckin Dredd forum for the love of Grud. What are we here for If not to at least partly discuss all these contradictions and other interesting tip bits. End of transmission
Quote from: The dude on 05 January, 2017, 08:04:49 PM
This is a Dredd forum
You hear that? That's the sound of Torquemada and Kano crying themselves to sleep.
No, it's more like Ace farting matey
I stand by my MACH 1 T Shirt 😁👍
Was there not a "cutaway" diagram of the Lawgiver in a very early prog or Annual? I'm also remembering some Ian Gibson art on the page as well.
That might have provided stats on the gun.
Personally I loved the early lawgiver and think the present one is too chunky. It was likely changed as the new one was easier to draw.
Okay Fact Fans.
In answer to my own question there is a cutaway diagram of the Lawgiver in Judge Dredd Annual 1981. It might be a reprint from a prog though.
Magazine capacity 24 shells (2 types x 12) with a magazine on the top and bottom of the pistol.
Heat seeker shells are stored x3 in the glove pouch and were fitted on to the muzzle. They were then propelled by a general purpose shell.
There probably isn't a cutaway diagram for the Mk2 Lawgiver as its just a big chunky gun that is easy to draw. The original Lawgiver is a classic.
They make the bullets smaller these days in order to fit as many in that are needed to service the plot of any given story.
Quote from: The dude on 05 January, 2017, 08:04:49 PM
I don't see what's wrong in trying to make sense of all the retcon that the strip has gone through.
Is It too much to establish, as best as possible given 40 years of history, some sort of canon.
I don't want to go down the shite route of American super hero comics nd keep resetting everything ad nauseam.
I don't really appreciate being accused of being too involved in this character and his history.
tip bits
Let's do this in order. Apologies for editing your comments, but I felt the need for more clarity than you had provided.
1. Neither do I, although I think there's a difference between retcon and progression.
2. No, it's not, as long as you're aware it will be a loose canon, so to speak.
3. Neither do I, but I don't expect it to happen because it's just not necessary.
4. To my knowledge, nobody has made such an accusation.
5. *tidbits
Finally, to sum up: you should read more Dredd comics. They're very rewarding.
- Trout
Trout I have read them for 40 years on and off matey. More on! Some are excellent some are pretty poor. Thank you for the spell correct reference tidbits, my thumbs are too big for my iPhone!!!!!!!! Your rather condescending tone is petty
sigh...
The original spelling is "titbits".
I think when Trout said you should read more Dredd comics he should've clarified something about the IDW ones.
With those, you should only read the ones done by the known Dredd creative teams, otherwise you may not be rewarded at all.
By the way, welcome to the friendliest place on the web.........most of the time :lol:
Please grow up you pedantic child
Quote from: Tony Angelino on 05 January, 2017, 09:16:44 PM
I think the present (Lawgiver) is too chunky. It was likely changed as the new one was easier to draw.
For most of the nineties, the Big Fucking Gun was in vogue. The philosopher Simon Bisley once postulated that the reason Dredd never caught on in the US was that he had
a puny little gun.
At the time the new version was introduced
[1], I thought it was being changed to more closely resemble the Stallone gun, but that only really applies to the black casing, red LED, and front elevation.
Dark Justice's introduction of the mkIII only seems to have been cover for Greg Staples incorporating the LED from the 2012 film
(and to explain why it jams). That seems strange, considering Carlos uses a different design to everyone else.
[1] 1122, Gun Crazy, by Wagner & Parente, 1998
Quote from: The dude on 05 January, 2017, 09:52:08 PM
Trout I have read them for 40 years on and off matey. More on! Some are excellent some are pretty poor. Thank you for the spell correct reference tidbits, my thumbs are too big for my iPhone!!!!!!!! Your rather condescending tone is petty
Sorry, I thought you were newer to the comic than that. Perhaps I am coming across poorly. Let's move on, and avoid getting into an argument.
A thick black death-dildo with a hump and a handle is all that was ever needed.
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff248/burlearth/lagiver%202_zpsge9vksaa.jpg)
Trout, fair enough my friend.
Quote from: COMMANDO FORCES on 05 January, 2017, 10:18:07 PM
I think when Trout said you should read more Dredd comics he should've clarified something about the IDW ones.
With those, you should only read the ones done by the known Dredd creative teams, otherwise you may not be rewarded at all.
By the way, welcome to the friendliest place on the web.........most of the time :lol:
Thank you man. By the way I like your podcasts on YouTube. Some good stuff. You should do more figure reviews. Have you checked out the forthcoming Xensation Stallone Dredd?
I paid for that Stallone figure once it became known. Looks pretty good, although the chain is longer than in the film but apart from that, it looks spot on.
No idea when it'll turn up but it seems the average for this size is a year.
It should be released next month. I have ordered two as it is apparent they are in high demand.
Mk2 Image by Judge Minty Director and all round good guy Steve Sterlacchini
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4119/4921603764_33a2cf436c_b.jpg)
And an early Mk1. I guess these are about as canon as people refer back to, but as people have mentioned its often changed in order to be a plot device...
Hope these help fill in the blanks - welcome to the forum ;-)
(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/105264/4260389-lawgiver1.jpg)
Quote from: PlanetReplicas on 10 January, 2017, 09:44:31 AM
Mk2 Image by Judge Minty Director and all round good guy Steve Sterlacchini
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4119/4921603764_33a2cf436c_b.jpg)
Excellent diagrams and layout. That pits that question to rest for the Mark 2 in my opinion. Thank you matey
Quote from: The dude on 10 January, 2017, 11:21:52 AM
Excellent diagrams and layout. That pits that question to rest for the Mark 2 in my opinion. Thank you matey
Truly beautiful and ingenious though it is, hardly any of that has ever even been hinted at it the strip. It's every bit as valid as anything one might doodle during a boring meeting/maths class. Which is very much the point with these things.
Yeah, it was just a bit of fun done for Judge Minty.
The whole long walk thing doesn't really make much sense beyond the ceremony - in the strip he goes off without helmet or any supplies.
We at least gave him a hat and a bag of stuff.
Seem to recall discussions - I think with Michael Carroll about whether there are resupply points in the Cursed Earth, but this was all background stuff which crossed our mind when expanding it and working out how it could work.
Having a background In and around firearms I must admit it looks beautiful, even though the tech involved would be so convoluted and near impossible to make work. I wish they released that as a poster instead of the poor quality Termight one
Some info on lawgivers here:
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/lawgiver/4055-56771/
Pretty sure I have this as a poster somewhere:
(http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/10/105264/4260391-lawgiverprint.jpg)
Also came across this:
(http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/wp-content/lawgiver-brashill-murray.jpg)
Absolutely the ultimate reference guide to
All versions of this Classic sidekick to Dredd. Thank you for posting
I have to admit I prefer the Mk II - what can I say, I like chunky, front-heavy sci-fi guns. Plus I'm a noob so I have no nostalgic loyalty to the Mk I.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 05 January, 2017, 10:59:47 PM
A thick black death-dildo with a hump and a handle
I'm so tempted to make that my signature
Me too! I bought the Planet Replica version😎 Great product, but it lets you see how impractical the design would be physically
I think this would make a nice base for a 'working' MK1
(http://www.imfdb.org/images/7/70/Bergmann1910.jpg)
Quote from: Steven Sterlacchini on 10 January, 2017, 08:11:34 PM
I think this would make a nice base for a 'working' MK1
(http://www.imfdb.org/images/7/70/Bergmann1910.jpg)
Believe it Or not this Mauser was the actual original Choice for 1995 Lawgiver. They were going to use this as the basis for the film Model, but then they went with that bulky Beretta model
Quote from: The dude on 10 January, 2017, 06:47:53 PM
Me too! I bought the Planet Replica version😎 Great product, but it lets you see how impractical the design would be physically
[Quote from: The dude on 10 January, 2017, 08:19:03 PM
Quote from: Steven Sterlacchini on 10 January, 2017, 08:11:34 PM
I think this would make a nice base for a 'working' MK1
(http://www.imfdb.org/images/7/70/Bergmann1910.jpg)
Believe it Or not this Mauser was the actual original Choice for 1995 Lawgiver. They were going to use this as the basis for the film Model, but then they went with that bulky Beretta model
sorry I should have said,Mauser style pistol as this is not the Mauser Broom handle that was first produced in the 19th century
Yep, it's a Bergmann 1910.
I never knew we were on a mk 3. Every day is a school day.
Yup, it would appear to be more like the Dredd Movie Lawgiver I believe .. I don't like it!
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 10 January, 2017, 10:26:33 PM
I never knew we were on a mk 3. Every day is a school day.
Surely the Mk III was scrapped after its dismal trial performance in outer space! When you have to use farm machinery to tackle the Dark Judges you know there are design issues at a level even Samsung would get a laugh out of.
Mind you, the Mk II somehow survived simultaneously blowing off the hands of most of Justice Dept, so that one was probably marketed by Apple...
In my head the Lawgiver is whatever Carlos drew most recently.
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 January, 2017, 10:26:44 AM
Mind you, the Mk II somehow survived simultaneously blowing off the hands of most of Justice Dept, so that one was probably marketed by AppleSamsung...
FTFY. :-)
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 January, 2017, 10:26:44 AM
Surely the Mk III was scrapped after its dismal trial performance in outer space! When you have to use farm machinery to tackle the Dark Judges you know there are design issues at a level even Samsung would get a laugh out of.
That was one thing I disliked about the Dark Justice story (which wasn't bad as a whole). The moment they offered Dredd an upgraded gun, I thought "that's going to jam, isn't it?" And it did. I really like John Wagner's writing, but I'm sure a lot of us saw that coming a mile off. I understand why he did it. The mark 1 and mark 2 lawgivers can take out the Dark Judges' physical forms pretty easily with the incendiary and Hi Ex rounds, so Mr. Wagner wanted to put Dredd into a vulnerable position when facing the DJs. I just wish he had come up with something else. I'm not the brightest person in the world and even I predicted the outcome.
Since then I've wondered if they fixed the mark 3 and put it into circulation or if it's still being tweaked behind the scenes, or did they just scrap it? Some artists do draw a very different flat top design of lawgiver, but they did that before the introduction of the Mark 3 in Dark Justice.
Anyway, concerning (very small) continuity conundrums:
A prototype Mark 4 lawgiver appeared in the strip before the Mark 3. (Do you remember the story where Dredd got a whole new uniform with built in AI that went crazy? I forget the name of the story, but it starred Gok Wan. Sort of.) I guess their tech division is way ahead in the weapon's technology. Maybe they have another team working on the next model while another is still sorting out the previous prototype. Or that's how long each prototype takes to get passed for mass production.
I suspect the real-world reason is that the writer lost track of the current lawgiver model. Heh. If that's the case, there have been two mark 3 lawgiver designs! Or its the same one brought back again a year or so apart. They look different, but then so does the standard lawgiver depending on the artist.
my fave was the one in the dredd vs death game , not as chunky as the mk2 and with a shorter barrel.