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The Political Thread

Started by The Legendary Shark, 09 April, 2010, 03:59:03 PM

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Smith

Quote from: Professor Bear on 22 October, 2017, 12:33:36 PM
Criticising Israel?  I never thought I'd see the day Antisemitism was allowed on the forum.
I think it was more like criticizing Texas.

Smith

Funny how little reaction there is to the Spanish occupation of Catalonia.Shouldn't Yanks bomb them by now?

Professor Bear

Because Catalonia has taken the peaceful protest approach, so there's not really much to report.  Once the deaths start livestreaming on Periscope, it'll be a different matter.

Smith

Yeah,imagine something like that happening in a not-NATO country.Actually,you don't have to imagine that hard.Double standards...

TordelBack

It really isn't. Imagine you lived in Catalonia, but didn't want to leave Spain. An unconstitutional referendum was held, which you as a Spanish citizen didn't want to participate in, and even if you did the state's appalingly heavy handed treatment meant you weren't going to go out and vote. Then that clusterfuck was used as a pretext to declare independence. I'd say you would hope that your constitutional democratically elected government might step in to uphold your right to remain a citizen.

Now I'm happy for any group to govern themselves at whatever scale they fancy, and think Spain has handled this atrociously throughout, but there's more than one group of people whose interests are being trampled by the evils of nationalism here.

Tjm86

Similarly

Quote from: TordelBack on 30 October, 2017, 06:12:48 PM
It really isn't. Imagine you lived in Britain, but didn't want to leave the EU. A poorly prepared referendum was held, which you as a British citizen didn't want to participate in, and even if you did the campaigners' appallingly constructed arguments  meant you weren't going to go out and vote. Then that clusterfuck was used as a pretext to declare independence. I'd say you would hope that your constitutional democratically elected government might step in to uphold your right to remain.

Not saying that the way the Spanish police handled some aspects of the referendum is analogous with what is being experienced but parallels are slightly more than a little disturbing, no?

Steven Denton

Quote from: Tjm86 on 31 October, 2017, 08:42:23 AM
Similarly

Quote from: TordelBack on 30 October, 2017, 06:12:48 PM
It really isn't. Imagine you lived in Britain, but didn't want to leave the EU. A poorly prepared referendum was held, which you as a British citizen didn't want to participate in, and even if you did the campaigners' appallingly constructed arguments  meant you weren't going to go out and vote. Then that clusterfuck was used as a pretext to declare independence. I'd say you would hope that your constitutional democratically elected government might step in to uphold your right to remain.

Not saying that the way the Spanish police handled some aspects of the referendum is analogous with what is being experienced but parallels are slightly more than a little disturbing, no?

No.

Imagine you lived in country governed by a conservative government, but didn't want to Have labour in charge. A First past the post election was held, which you as a Hard right Tory didn't want to participate in, and even if you did the campaigners' appallingly constructed arguments and mixed ideological messages  meant you weren't going to go out and vote. Then that clusterfuck was used as a pretext to return a Labour government . I'd say you would hope that your constitutional democratically elected government might step in and dissolve parliament and set up a permanent hard right dictatorship

I can't see any parallels between The EU referendum and what's Happening in Spain. The closest parallel would be if Scotland had not been given a referendum on  independence, had held one anyway, the Government had confiscated ballot papers and sent police to close polling stations. Strong supporters of independence, who called for the vote and have the most interest in turning out continued to vote as best they can, then the Scottish Parliament had used that flawed and undemocratic process to declare independence.   

The best thing that Catalan independence campaigners can hope for is this disruption will and international attention will force Spain into holding a legal  referendum some time in the future

Professor Bear

Quote from: TordelBack on 30 October, 2017, 06:12:48 PMThen that clusterfuck was used as a pretext to declare independence.

The clusterfuck was actually used as a pretext to remove democratically-elected officials - as early as the day after the indy vote, Spain was tabling a motion to dissolve the Catalan government that was guaranteed to pass.  The declaration of independence was like that bit in Terminator 2 when Arnie gives the thumbs-up as he's going in the smelter, except instead of the thumbs-up he's flipping the bird.

Steven Denton

That was a really odd few days where Spain's government were asking Catalan if they were declaring independence or not. It was also a tactically astute move from the independence movement as it made the central government take the initiative (the aggressor)

The regional power overstepped it's constitutional and legal mark and ceased to function as a regional authority. Madrid was constitutionally obligated to take control of Catalan, something the separatists would have known. which is again a smart PR move on the part of the independence movement.

I wouldn't say this was a pretext so much as the inevitable result of a certain course or action. 


Tjm86

Quote from: Steven Denton on 31 October, 2017, 10:43:01 AM

I can't see any parallels between The EU referendum and what's Happening in Spain.


For me, the parallels are in terms of reacting overtly to a situation that, as you point out is internationally significant.  In terms of the referendum vote, it is a case of resolutely following through on Brexit even though the mandate is questionable.  In the case of Catalan, imposing central rule based on questionable reasoning (to whit, we didn't approve of the referendum so we are taking everything away).  That said, I can see what you mean in terms of the situation in Spain being significantly more challenging.  Thanks.

Professor Bear

I don't support doctors and nurses having a strike because the government says it's illegal for them to have one.

Dissolving the Catalan government was always on the cards.  The region hasn't had any real power for some time, just look at how it implemented a bullfighting ban completely legally and within its power and Spain simply overturned the ban in the Spanish courts, both eroding the regional powers yet also reinforcing the idea that they and Spain were separate legal dominions.
Leaving aside that they knew from experience that Spain wouldn't acknowledge their decisions, Catalan has no military and their police take their orders from outside the region: how exactly was independence ever going to be enforced?  I don't doubt for one moment the declaration was just a parting "fuck you" to Spain.

Steven Denton

Quote from: Professor Bear on 31 October, 2017, 12:59:47 PM
I don't support doctors and nurses having a strike because the government says it's illegal for them to have one.

Not sure of the relevance?




Richard

Just because the Catalan leaders were elected doesn't absolve them of their duty to uphold the law. They can't just do what they like and say it's fine because "democracy." Part of democracy is voting, and another part is the rule of law.

There's no comparison with the EU referendum, which was authorised by a law passed by Parliament, which then passed a second law to authorise Brexit (after the Supreme Court told then they had to and the government deferred to that ruling). A better comparison would have been if David Cameron had refused to have a referendum so Nigel Farage had carried out an illegal referendum anyway, which non-UKIPs boycotted because it was illegal, and then Farage illegally declared that he was starting the Article 50 process, and the EU said "no you can't do that" and insisted that Britain was still in the EU.

Professor Bear

Quote from: Richard on 31 October, 2017, 04:09:46 PMA better comparison would have been if David Cameron had refused to have a referendum so Nigel Farage had carried out an illegal referendum anyway

No.  Nigel Farage has never held elected office in the UK, the only election he's ever actually won in this country was the one that made him an MEP - or to put it another way, he won an election to send him out of the country, but that's all.  Any referendum he called would be the same as you or I holding a referendum, though ours would probably be worth more because as far as I know, neither of us is bankrolled by Russia.

A greater equivalence would probably be if the Scottish Assembly had the legal right to hold a referendum at the time of its formation, but Westminster made a unilateral decision to remove that legal right and then Nicola Sturgeon called a referendum anyway.

TordelBack

Quote from: Steven Denton on 31 October, 2017, 01:37:49 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 31 October, 2017, 12:59:47 PM
I don't support doctors and nurses having a strike because the government says it's illegal for them to have one.

Not sure of the relevance?

It'd only be relevant if Doctors and Nurses had declared a strike without a mandate from their members in accordance with the articles of their unions. The issue isn't Catalonia's right to seek independence (carry on, please), the issue is with those citizens who are disenfranchised by appeals to an unconstitutional referendum they did not participate in because it was illegal.

The comparison I was thinking of was one where nationalist MPs in NI unilterally called a referendum on leaving the UK, outside of the terms of the Good Friday agreement, and when Stormont was dissolved (as if anyone would notice) declared independence anyway.

Be a bit shite on all those who are entitled to a say under existing agreements, regardless of past and current injustices and ongoing gerrymandering. Once you have a valid democratic process, you have to play by those rules to be fair to those citizens who may disagree with you.

And yes, although I think many on the Leave campaign should have been jailed for deliberate fraud, and the government pilloried for ludicrous wording and subsequent handling, this does indeed include Brexit. That the UK has failed to vote anyone supporting the fiasco out of existence is neither here nor there.