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“Truth? You can't handle the truth!”

Started by The Legendary Shark, 18 March, 2011, 06:52:29 PM

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mygrimmbrother

This thread upsets me. On the one hand I don't want to sound like a consipracy nutjob, but on the other anyone who thinks Big Pharma has our best interests at heart, the majority of GPs genuinely want to help people and that herbal medicine is some kind of hustle is genuinely naive.

But that's just, like, my opinion man.

TordelBack

#331
Quote from: mygrimmbrother on 13 June, 2011, 11:34:44 AM
...but on the other anyone who thinks Big Pharma has our best interests at heart, the majority of GPs genuinely want to help people and that herbal medicine is some kind of hustle is genuinely naive.

I'll give you Big Pharma no problem, but the other two?  Yes, that's what I think.  Medical professionals aren't perfect, are of course influenced by the commercial environment and structures they operate within, but ultimately yes, they want to help people be healthier.  

Are you suggesting that homeopaths and the sellers of essential oils are pure altruists and guardians of hidden truths while Doctors aren't?  Because I think the entirety of human history and the bulk of rational thought strongly disagrees with you.  

I used to dig up long-dead people for a living - those folk would have killed for a GP or ER visit, but I bet they had access to all the home-grown herbs going, and they still lost over 50% of their live-birth children before they were five.

Richmond Clements

Quote from: mygrimmbrother on 13 June, 2011, 11:34:44 AM
This thread upsets me. On the one hand I don't want to sound like a consipracy nutjob, but on the other anyone who thinks Big Pharma has our best interests at heart, the majority of GPs genuinely want to help people and that herbal medicine is some kind of hustle is genuinely naive.

But that's just, like, my opinion man.


Depends what you mean by 'herbal medicine'.
If you mean bottles of water that, they claim, contain the memory of something else, then I would say yes- they are absolutely on a hustle. They are fakes and con-men.
If you mean herbal remidies that have been proven to work, then of course they are not. As has been pointed out- we call these herbal cures 'medicine'.

TordelBack


Proudhuff

jeez, take a chill pill... what do you mean they ain't been tested yet?  ;)
DDT did a job on me

mygrimmbrother


Richmond Clements


mygrimmbrother


Peter Wolf

Codex Alimentaris is the World Trade Organisation/World Health Organisation working in conjunction with the Bigpharma cartel and international banks so clearly there is nothing untoward going on here at all and its nothing to do with monopolies and the profit motive.

"Harmonisation"

Codex Alimentaris will banish the scourge of vitamin supplements and dietary supplements except for those that they[BigPharma]produce and sell themselves of course at vastly inflated prices which they have licensed themselves to do.Nothing untoward about that.

Theres nothing untoward about drug companies being given a licence to take over the food and health supplements industry wholesale.

Curiously Codex Alimentaris does not require that GM food should be labelled.Nothing untoward about that either.

Worthing Bazaar - A fete worse than death

Richmond Clements

#339
QuoteCuriously Codex Alimentaris does not require that GM food should be labelled.Nothing untoward about that either.

You also fail to mention that it is voluntary and countries have no obligation to follow it.

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/food/codex-alimentarius/

The Legendary Shark

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 13 June, 2011, 11:48:31 AM
If you mean bottles of water that, they claim, contain the memory of something else, then I would say yes- they are absolutely on a hustle. They are fakes and con-men.

I'm not so sure:

"Recently, chemists have made the surprising discovery that molecules form clusters that increase in size with dilution. These clusters measure several micro-metres in diameter. The increase in size occurs nonlinearly with dilution and it depends on history, flying in the face of classical chemistry. Indeed, there is as yet no explanation for the phenomenon. It may well be another reflection of the strangeness of water that depends on its quantum properties.

"In the mid-1990s, quantum physicists Del Giudice and Preparata and other colleagues in University of Milan, in Italy, argued that quantum coherent domains measuring 100nm in diameter could arise in pure water. They show how the collective vibrations of the water molecules in the coherent domain eventually become phase-locked to the fluctuations of the global electromagnetic field. In this way, long-lasting, stable oscillations could be maintained in the water.

"One way in which 'memory' might be stored in water is through the excitation of long-lasting coherent oscillations specific to the substances in the homeopathic remedy dissolved in water. Interaction of water molecules with other molecules changes the collective structure of water, which would in turn determine the specific coherent oscillations that will develop. If these become stabilised and maintained by phase coupling between the global field and the excited molecules, then, even when the dissolved substances are diluted away, the water may still carry the coherent oscillations that can 'seed' other volumes of water on dilution." (1)

Of course, this is all Greek to me so I can't say whether water is capable of holding "memories" or not. I can't rule it out, though. If there wasn't something in homeopathy then people wouldn't use it. That something, of course, may be nothing more than a placebo effect or it may be something that modern science doesn't yet understand. I don't know - and to be frank, neither do you.

I'm a great fan of science, but it is not my religion. I say that because some of the responses I've had from science fans in the past (not here on this thread, I hasten to add) on trying to discuss things like homeopathy prompt knee-jerk dismissal and even anger. I find this very curious from a discipline that is supposed to look at things rationally. It's often like listening to some Evangelist screaming about Heaven and Hell.

As with the cancer treatments we've been discussing I think we need to keep open minds. Science should be investigating these claims thoroughly and if it turns out that hemp oil or B17 or sodium bicarbonate can cure cancers then we shouldn't let the accountants overrule the scientists as is happening now.

At the moment, humanity is such a stupid species. We have all this potential around us but instead of using our resources to investigate these things we'd rather squander them on profits or buying bombs to atomise Iraqis with. (Speaking of which, did you know that depleted uranium microparticles, which can cause cancers and birth defects if inhaled, have been found in the UK? (2) It's unclear whether these microparticles which are created when the DU rounds are fired have arrived on the wind from Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya (etc) or from weapons testing at home. This is what we'd rather be spending our money on?)

Earlier on in this thread it was suggested that I think natural stuff is all good and artificial stuff is all bad. This is most certainly not the case. Science is, in my opinion, one of mankind's greatest achievements and most precious assets. My beef is that once the accountants get involved even the most useful of tools can become blunted or misapplied. Going back to pure nature is not the answer and neither is relying entirely on science. We need to use all our assets if we are to survive as a species, and if that means throwing our resources into thoroughly investigating the possibility that water has a memory then I'd rather do that than just assume that homeopathy must be bollocks simply because I can't understand how such a thing might work.




(1) http://www.i-sis.org.uk/water3.php
(2) http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article732523.ece
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Richmond Clements

QuoteI'm not so sure:

Evidence disagrees with you, I'm afraid.

http://www.dcscience.net/?p=129

Proudhuff

 'can't say whether water is capable of holding "memories" '

if it does we're all drinkling pish! not to mention every other thing that water has been in contact with  ::)
DDT did a job on me

The Legendary Shark

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 13 June, 2011, 01:54:33 PM
QuoteCuriously Codex Alimentaris does not require that GM food should be labelled.Nothing untoward about that either.

You also fail to mention that it is voluntary and countries have no obligation to follow it.

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/food/codex-alimentarius/

Everything is voluntary. Technically, every EU directive is voluntary because we as a nation have no say in which directives the EU issues. Our government simply volunteers to comply. Bombing Iraq is voluntary. Sending ground troops into Libya is voluntary.

Technically speaking, statute law in this country is also voluntary. There is no common law saying that you must pay a speeding fine, for example - any speeding ticket you get is merely a cleverly worded invitation to pay.

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 13 June, 2011, 02:21:48 PM
QuoteI'm not so sure:

Evidence disagrees with you, I'm afraid.

http://www.dcscience.net/?p=129

A quick Whois search reveals the owner of that web page to be David Colquhoun, who is behind the website Improbable Science and was the Hon. Director of the Wellcome Laboratory for Molecular Pharmacology which is owned by the Wellcome supermarket chain, one of the two largest supermarket chains in Hong Kong. There is no evidence on that page - only opinion. The phrase "pure pseudo-scientific gobblydegook" may sound impressive, but it is not backed up by evidence. Unfortunately, the evidence that disagrees with me is not evidence at all.
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Richmond Clements

Quote from: Proudhuff on 13 June, 2011, 02:28:34 PM
'can't say whether water is capable of holding "memories" '

if it does we're all drinkling pish! not to mention every other thing that water has been in contact with  ::)

I know I'm risking the ire of Mr Shark again... but you should listen to the Tim Michin song/poem Storm, where he makes this very point.


QuoteThere is no evidence on that page - only opinion

Much the same as yours then?
There is no evidence that water has amemory. It dioesn not matter how it is dressed up or how many times the word quantum is thrown about- there is simply no evidence. If there is, then those with this evidence should present it in a scientific journal, allow it to be peer reviewed and then collect the Nobel proze that would no doubt follow.