“Truth? You can't handle the truth!”

[Proudhuff]

okay I'll bite shark 

Their goal is to muddy the waters so they can carry on profiteering for as long as possible.


large companies with a lot to lose put large amounts of money into 'reseach' that isn't peer reviewed but can then be promoted by 'friendly' organisations and web users who through front organisations which are paid for by the companies, the aim is to muddy the waters.

This worked well for the tabacco industry for years and the example I gave you shows they continue to do this practice by asking small research teams (whose research could affect sales and profits) for FOI requests on every aspect of their organisation. With limited numbers of staff, monies and time small research organisations have to then put their scant and scarce time and money into answering erronous FoI as these are time critical. (I have personal evperience of this and the effects it has)

Don't get me wrong I think FoIs are a great step forward in shining a powerful light in some very dark corners, FOI can be wonderful powerful things, but we all know what peter parkers uncle says about power. Unfortunately in the hands of some they can become an other legal sledgehammer to beat a small nut.


Many industries have learnt for the Tobacco industries' fight over the last fifty years how to deal with overwhelming emperical(sp) and peer reviewed research that goes against their interests.

I can recommend this very highly:

[Emperor]

Pop stars and their conspiracy theories:

www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/jul/21/popandrock-hip-hop

[The Legendary Shark]

Thanks for that, Proudhuff, I hadn't considered that FoI requests could be used as a weapon by corporations although it does make complete sense.

I would suggest that as many small research teams as possible come together and turn the tables. Whenever one is dealt a FoI request by a big boy, the alliance of small teams also make FoI requests of the big boy. What FoI requests have they issued in the past six months? To whom? For what purpose? Etc. A website could have form FoI requests to just print out and send or email. What they do to you, do back to them one hundred fold.

You'd only need a website or even just a Facebook or Google+ group. I reckon such a thing would even get many members of the public to help.

Wiki-FoIs? Maybe not, and I'm sure this isn't a unique idea.

There was no link visible on my screen after you wrote: "I can recommend this very highly:"

[Dandontdare]

As soon as David Bellamy (remember him, gwubbing awound in the undergwowth?) started questioning the prevailing view of climate change he couldn't get back on telly for love nor money. Which may be a coincidence or he may have run into politics.

Actually, as Mr Bellamy later admitted, he'd read some dodgy "facts" about glaciers expanding rather than shrinking, took it at face value, drew erroneous conclusions which he then dissemintaed widely. To be fair to him, when the data was proved to be false, he publicly admitted he was wrong, but I don't think his credibility as a scientist has ever really recovered.

There's a lesson there for all armchair experts!

Not sure when Mr Bellamy recanted - do you have a date for that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eOFYAg_DPw

http://www.desmogblog.com/david-bellamy-wrong-climate-change-science

This doesn't mean I always agree with George Monbiot, or that David Bellamy fully recanted his denial views, it just shows that he does talk bullshit at times.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Before this thread, it had never occured to me that David Bellamy might be important in a debate about climate change. Does he have any connections with Belt manufacturers?

[JOE SOAP]

I now find Monbiot an insufferable blowhard, ignorant of many things why mass scale nuclear installations is a no-goer and undesirable in a contracting world with less ability to build and maintain such complex structures. Especially since it was hard enough when we had plentiful resouces to build them right in the first place yet the nuclear industry chose to cut-corners and fudge the requirements for safety standards anyway.

[The Legendary Shark]

Just watched that vid, DDD. Poor David! I note that Monbiot was careful not to address any of Bellamy's points directly but instead chose to undermine his sources instead. The alleged website was never named and neither was the alleged fraudster behind it (unless he was and I missed it). When Bellamy took up the issue of the actual role of CO2 in climate change, Monbiot produced a piece of paper from his jacket containing a statement by several societies who support the conventional view and offered no counter evidence. Indeed, this statement merely said something about denyal climate change being unjustified. But Bellamy isn't denying climate change, is he?  It's an age-old trick - if you can't dispute the argument, dispute the arguer. Yes, Maybe Bellamy did get some of his facts wrong but Monbiot's counter-facts were few and vague and his main tactic was to call Bellamy names.

I can't find a complete version of David Bellamy's New Scientist article (I'm not paying for a New Scientist subscription just to get access to it) so I can't really comment on it.

David Bellamy, of course, isn't the only sceptic (that's a good word to apply to a scientist, isn't it?) of man-made global warming. 31,487 American scientists have signed a petition questioning man-made global warming and calling on the US government to reject the Kyoto agreement. (I'm still reading through it, but it seems genuine enough to my untutored eye - perhaps some of the more scientifically minded amongst you would have a different opinion.)  http://www.petitionproject.org/index.php

[The Legendary Shark]

Taken from http://www.petitionproject.org/gw_article/Review_Article_HTML.php, where there are many more interesting nuggets.

[JOE SOAP]

Surprised you haven't mentioned this bombing/shooting Sharky -now with added Freemason- have fun there must be some conspiratorial value in it:





The Oil & Gas Ministry was apparently the target of the bombs.



The blond Norwegian 'Anti-Islamist Freemason' arrested over 'holiday island massacre' and linked to Oslo car bomb blasts:

He describes himself as having Christian, conservative views. He says he enjoys hunting, the games World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2, and lives in Oslo.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/22/anders-behring-breivik-id_n_907513.html

[Richmond Clements]

Jesus. I'd predicted this being a Neo-Nazi yesterday afternoon.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

I'm astonished that no-one has mention the Labour paper that has been caught phone hacking. Amazingly I found it on the BBC website. I bet loads of national papers are not feeling so smug now

[Richmond Clements]

I'm astonished that no-one has mention the Labour paper that has been caught phone hacking. Amazingly I found it on the BBC website. I bet loads of national papers are not feeling so smug now

A Labour paper like the Sun or News of the World, you mean? Both of which backed the Tony Blair government.
It's ridiculous to try to paint this as Tory or Labour- it is not.

And I think that, at the moment, the murder of 80+ children has taken precedence on the news.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

I'm impressed Richmond, you are the first left of centre person to admit that the Sun and NoW were actually in the grasp of Labour (New) at the time of the Hacking. As for the Tory Labour slant, I'm just sick of seeing on the web Tory Rag, etc.. about the NoW and Sun, so I thought I'd just point out that, as I have always known, every NATIONAL paper will be dragged into this!

As for Norway and what has happened, I've just spent a night listening to the news channels, Twitter, etc... hearing this rapidly unfold into an horrific story. Already there are many eye witness accounts of what happened all over the airwaves and it sent a shiver down my spine when the island count hit 80 at 03:00.
I've spent a quite a bit of time in Norway on numerous Winter deployments and found the people very polite, the houses (in the countryside) very quaint and the prices very steep.
Sadly I feel politics will be used by certain people when the bloke explains himself today, as he has said that is what he will do!

[Richmond Clements]

I also think it's worth pointing out that Blair was to the right of Thatcher when it came to policy!

And yeah- I went to sleep with 10 people dead and woke up to 80+. Grim stuff. Like you, Vicky has spent some time there, and I think anyone who has visited this lovely peaceful country cannot help but feel it more.

[Eric Plumrose]

David Bellamy, of course, isn't the only sceptic (that's a good word to apply to a scientist, isn't it?) of man-made global warming.

Unlike, say, the aggregation of conspiracy theories, science actively seek to disprove itself. So, yes. Scientists can be considered professional sceptics.