Star Wars Episode IX

[Tiplodocus]

And in that scene having the Jedi act as space cops ("Nothing to see here. Jedi business") didn't help.

To me the Force doesn't work in Star Wars movies in exactly the way the magic in LOTR movies did. If Gandalf had stood on ramparts blasting lightning and throwing fireballs, we'd all be going "Well, why doesn't he just do that all the time?". But the vagueness of his powers...( is it just leadership, charisma, persuasion, some healing herbs and a really bright light on the end of his staff) makes it work.

Similarly the monsters in LOTR work pretty well but when you get to THE HOBBIT movies and the same writers suddenly think that Stone Giants and War Wyrms are a good idea, the audience is thinking "Well if I was Sauron, I'd just get me a couple of them". And the balance is gone.

[Hawkmumbler]

I mean, power leveling Middle Earth beings is pretty much pointless because Tolkien just put in anything fun without any knowledge nearly 90 years later, nerds on the internet and a huge cinematic conglomerate would rigidly try to tier stuff like it's Dragon Ball Z.

[TordelBack]

And in that scene having the Jedi act as space cops ("Nothing to see here. Jedi business") didn't help.

Awful though that line/scene is (Obi-Wan multilates and then Ani mind-rapes a patsy), it does sell the wrongness of the Jedi role as the Republic crumbles quite well. We came into the Prequels thinking the Jedi were the mystic dogs' bollocks, but we forgot that Yoda and Obi-Wan were *always* lying bastards, and wartime generals, and very poor teachers. It's a painfull 3-movie disillusionment, but we can't say we weren't warned.

But the vagueness of his powers...( is it just leadership, charisma, persuasion, some healing herbs and a really bright light on the end of his staff) makes it work.

His main powers are lighting and chucking pine-cones, and talking to moths. He does a lot with a little. 

[Funt Solo]

Gandalf skill sheet:

• Flashlight
• Moth-parseltongue
• Handy with a sword
• Summon Shadowfax
• Friend to Eagles
• Magic Smoke Rings
• Fancy Fantasy Fireworks
• Explosive Pine Cones
• Mimic-a-Troll
• Forest Fire
• Anti-Balrog Shell
• Charm Werebear
• Resurrect Self

---

Oh yeah, and (on topic), the Force blah blah.

[Rately]

Gandalf skill sheet:

• Flashlight
• Moth-parseltongue
• Handy with a sword
• Summon Shadowfax
• Friend to Eagles
• Magic Smoke Rings
• Fancy Fantasy Fireworks
• Explosive Pine Cones
• Mimic-a-Troll
• Forest Fire
• Anti-Balrog Shell
• Charm Werebear
• Resurrect Self

---

Oh yeah, and (on topic), the Force blah blah.

Maybe it reflects badly on me, but I misread the first entry on that Gandalf Skill Sheet! Then was frantically trying to remember the book and films to piece together how I'd missed that!

Lucky I wasn't drinking tea when I read it.

[Dark Jimbo]

 

[Funt Solo]

He spends a lot of time alone in hedges - he probably he has one.

[radiator]

And in that scene having the Jedi act as space cops ("Nothing to see here. Jedi business") didn't help.

To me the Force doesn't work in Star Wars movies in exactly the way the magic in LOTR movies did. If Gandalf had stood on ramparts blasting lightning and throwing fireballs, we'd all be going "Well, why doesn't he just do that all the time?". But the vagueness of his powers...( is it just leadership, charisma, persuasion, some healing herbs and a really bright light on the end of his staff) makes it work.

Similarly the monsters in LOTR work pretty well but when you get to THE HOBBIT movies and the same writers suddenly think that Stone Giants and War Wyrms are a good idea, the audience is thinking "Well if I was Sauron, I'd just get me a couple of them". And the balance is gone.

A point that was made in the RLM reviews that really hit the nail on the head for me was how I always got the impression that the things we see Jedis do in the original trilogy - the mind trick, shooting lightning, telekinesis etc etc - are just suggestions of the kinds of things the jedi are capable of. Then you get to the prequels, and its like 'yeah, all that stuff the jedi do in the original movies is literally the extent of what they can do'. It's so boring and unimaginative.

On a related note, I think A Song of Ice and Fire has probably the best portrayal of magical powers I've seen in a work of fiction, specifically regarding the character of Melisandre. The Game of Thrones TV show didn't really have the time to go into it much, but in the books you get the sense that while Melisandre does have legit magical powers, it's supplemented by a lot of bullshitting and misdirection to make out she's more powerful than she is, and the use of magic in the series generally comes with a cost to the user, often in blood. There's a lot of talk about magic being 'a blade with no hilt - there's no way to wield it safely'. Because of this the magic users never seem overpowered and it avoids the pitfalls you mention of wondering 'why character x didn't just do y?'.

[JOE SOAP]

... the proposed original ending of RotJ had Obi-Wan (and Yoda) physically intervene in the final fight with Palpatine. This was (luckily) nerfed, and the ould lad tells Luke he can't get involved for unspecified reasons (of... balance)?

Nowadays we tend to view Obi-Wan's 'Strike me down and I'll become more powerful than ....' line as more metaphorical, an inspiration for Luke and a way of ensuring enmity for his father, but it may well originally have been intended to be an actual threat - and one that finds expression in JJ's raiding of Lucas' notes for TRoS, in the very McQuarrie throne room that it was supposed to have played out in.

Thankfully the idea of an intervention by resurrected force-ghosts against the Emperor was ditched in favor of keeping the conflict Luke-centric because it's in the realisation of the metaphorical in Kenobi's surrender to the force that Star Wars becomes truly lyrical (not the karaoke of later efforts) and pays-off several times for the throughline of the story: 

In A New Hope it's Luke turning off the machinery of the X-Wing's guidance-system and 'letting go' of his feelings that lands the shot. In Empire, doing the opposite and impulsively going on the offensive against Vader results in Luke losing his hand and gaining a permanent prosthetic warning; and in Jedi, withdrawing his lightsaber —circling back to Kenobi in the docking bay— leads to Luke winning over his father.

[sheridan]

A point that was made in the RLM reviews that really hit the nail on the head for me was how I always got the impression that the things we see Jedis do in the original trilogy - the mind trick, shooting lightning, telekinesis etc etc - are just suggestions of the kinds of things the jedi are capable of. Then you get to the prequels, and its like 'yeah, all that stuff the jedi do in the original movies is literally the extent of what they can do'. It's so boring and unimaginative.

As much as I like the holy trinity, the forgetfulness of the film makers started right with the second film.  Obiwan was in disguise as a hermit, which is why he was wearing those brown robes.  So why did Yoda wear the same clothes in Empire?  And the force-ghost-Anakin in Jedi?  Though hiding Luke Skywalker in a home that Anakin Skywalker had been to before the fall to the darkside is also pretty stupid (though has been pointed out many, many times).

[Jim_Campbell]

Though hiding Luke Skywalker in a home that Anakin Skywalker had been to before the fall to the darkside is also pretty stupid (though has been pointed out many, many times).

Using the name 'Skywalker' rather than that of his adoptive parents probably wasn't the cleverest thing to do when you're hiding a child from its now-evil father...

[TordelBack]

Though hiding Luke Skywalker in a home that Anakin Skywalker had been to before the fall to the darkside is also pretty stupid (though has been pointed out many, many times).

Using the name 'Skywalker' rather than that of his adoptive parents probably wasn't the cleverest thing to do when you're hiding a child from its now-evil father...

While the default argument is due to issues with sand (and other painful memories) Vader* is unlikely to ever return to Tatooine, and vocally so (note that he doesn't even personally land there when pursuing the Death Star plans), it always raises lots of interesting questions about how much all the other players knew (in-universe at least - obviously in terms of the production no-one was any the wiser). 

For example, Watto knows that L'il Ani, the only human champion of the Boonta Eve Classic and thus a minor local celebrity, went on to become the Jedi hero of the Republic, and he knows that Shmi married Cliegg Lars and lived on a farm out near Anchorhead.  Given the potential value of that info, it's not likely to be a secret that any Skywalkers out there at the edge of the Dune Sea are relatives of the man who personally ended the Clone Wars.

Meanwhile, Palpatine outright lies about Padme's death to Vader, so does he know she lived to give birth? If he does, he must conclude the offspring is (are) with Obi-Wan, since he was the only one on Mustafar. The coincidence of a crazy old wizard called Kenobi and a hotshot pilot called Skywalker living around where he knows Anakin buried his mother would seem to be something irresistable.

Ultimately, I think the whole thing rests on the original idea that Tatooine is the planet that's farthest from the bright centre of the universe.  Just because we the viewers see it over and over again, and know it to be the cradle of many destinies, doesn't mean anyone plotting (say) complete galactic domination ever gives it a second thought.
 


*Although he did build a castle at the spot where he killed his wife, and had his limbs chopped off and marinated in a lava field, so who knows how far his masochism extends.

In A New Hope it's Luke turning off the machinery of the X-Wing's guidance-system and 'letting go' of his feelings that lands the shot. In Empire, doing the opposite and impulsively going on the offensive against Vader results in Luke losing his hand and gaining a permanent prosthetic warning; and in Jedi, withdrawing his lightsaber —circling back to Kenobi in the docking bay— leads to Luke winning over his father.

And absolutely all this.  You can extend this leitmotif into Last Jedi if you like, but alas no further.

[shaolin_monkey]

*Although he did build a castle at the spot where he killed his wife, and had his limbs chopped off and marinated in a lava field, so who knows how far his masochism extends.

I reckon he just had an eye for real estate opportunities. He must have picked that lava field up for a song!  Think of the free energy too - central heating sorted, all the power a water turbine can generate etc. And I doubt there's much in the way of building regs on that planet either.  Combined with his wage for being one of the Empire's top dogs, who wouldn't want to build a cool giant fortress over a rad lava flow?!

[Tiplodocus]

Given the amount of walkways over gigantically deep voids with never a railing in sight, or fellas standing in the muzzle of planet killing weapons, I don't think there are any building regs in Star Wars.

[TordelBack]

Given the amount of walkways over gigantically deep voids with never a railing in sight, or fellas standing in the muzzle of planet killing weapons, I don't think there are any building regs in Star Wars.

Judging by Rogue One all the galaxy's top engineers are middle-aged white blokes, so for them replacing the bureaucratic Republic with the First Galactic Empire probably seemed like a good opportunity to get rid of all that HS&W legislation that was strangling business/despotic schemes. Planetary annihilaton: let's get it done.