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The Political Thread

Started by The Legendary Shark, 09 April, 2010, 03:59:03 PM

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sheridan

Quote from: Professor Bear on 01 August, 2019, 12:39:46 PM
Quote from: Proudhuff on 01 August, 2019, 10:44:43 AMand as seen recently you currently vote for the individual not the party they are a member of

I'm not sure about that, as most places would vote for a turd in a bowl if someone stuck a party rosette on it.  There's a reason most MPs who go independent after being elected on a party ticket don't call by-elections.

The point is that you might think you're voting for a party, but you're actually voting for the individual (which is why MPs don't lose their seats if they quit or switch parties).

The Legendary Shark

For this idea, there wouldn't be a vote - it would be more akin to jury service, with appointments lasting for maybe a year.
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IndigoPrime

Great. Now how do people retain their careers if they are called up? (I live in constant fear of jury service, not because I don't want to serve, but because freelancers are not accounted for under the existing system. If you end up on a months-long trial, you may emerge to discover you have nothing left of your career.)

The Legendary Shark


Legislation? Opt-outs? Legal protections? Social attitudes?



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IndigoPrime

Opt-out is the only thing that would work. But then that also causes problems, because you end up in the scenario where the only people who can take part are those who can – for whatever reason – afford to.

(With jury duty, I've discussed my particular circumstances with a lawyer and their response was basically "hope you don't get called up for a months-long trial". Fun times.)

Professor Bear

What could go wrong by handing power over to a chamber composed of the knuckle-draggers who voted for Brexit and a Tory government till 2022?  The jury duty comparison is an interesting one, as juries are forbidden from exposing themselves to media that might influence their decision, and that is most definately an interesting idea to explore.  There's a Terry Pratchett novel where the politicians of a country are put in jail when they assume office, and I've always thought there's definite mileage in that notion.

I would want a 3rd chamber only if it was composed of people deliberately excluded from having a say in our current democratic processes, like prisoners, immigrants who live/work here, the under 18s, etc.  I don't see the benefit in forcing people into working as politicians, I mean if you just want to ensure greater participation, then make voting easier and/or compulsory.

The Legendary Shark

These are all implementation problems. Assuming these can be solved, or at least mitigated, would a House of Citizens be a useful addition to the governmental machinery and, if so, how? I'm not proposing this idea, or backing it, or defending it, but exploring the concept. As you all know, I despise the way government works but understand that most other people regard it as essential but flawed. This being the case, does the idea of a third house hold any value as a possible improvement?
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The Legendary Shark


(The above was posted before I read the Prof's post.)

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CalHab

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 01 August, 2019, 12:17:44 PM
The Irish Citizens' Assembly did lead to positive outcomes on same sex marriage and abortion - which only proves, of course, the potential of such a house.

Scotland is trialling a Citizens' Assembly:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48759720

JayzusB.Christ

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 01 August, 2019, 12:17:44 PM


The Irish Citizens' Assembly did lead to positive outcomes on same sex marriage and abortion - which only proves, of course, the potential of such a house.



Hang on, weren't these the same referendums you rubbished at the time for being statist concoctions?
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

The Legendary Shark


Probably.

As I said, I despise the way government works and what it stands for - but most people don't. It's not going to be abolished any time soon, so at least I'm open to ways of improving it and bringing it more in line with the wishes of the people.

If people want to believe that the only rights they have are the ones their governments allow them, then at least let the people have a greater hand in the invention of those rights. Let people at least participate in the Grand Illusion rather than just be enslaved to it.

Things like citizen's assemblies and this third house, just like the rest of government, are fundamentally flawed ideas but they might at least be a step in the right direction - bringing "power" closer to its true source.

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Smith

I continue to be fascinated by UKIPs downward spiral...it appears there is really no end to it. Its been a rough patch for Stepfather of Akkad lately.

IndigoPrime

Expect the same for the Brexit Party when Farage is done with his latest vanity project, and jumps ship to something else that's temporarily less toxic (but then becomes the same right-wing wet-dream nightmare).

Frank


More than half of all US states have populations smaller than Scotland, and their major cities boast fewer residents than Glasgow.

Last year, there were 59 murders in Scotland. The only US state with fewer murders (total) was Rhode Island, which has a population 5 times smaller than Scotland but a gun homicide total 20 times greater than Scotland.

The US states with populations most directly comparable in size to Scotland (Minnesota, Alabama, South Carolina, Kentucky) have gun murder totals 40, 100, 140 and 90 times that of Scotland. With the exception of the twin cities of Minneapolis-Saint Paul, the largest urban centres in those states have populations smaller (much smaller) than Glasgow.

Of the two US cities in the news this weekend, El Paso has a population less than 1.4k greater than Glasgow but a gun murder total 10 times than that of all Scotland. The city of Dayton has a quarter of the population of Glasgow but a gun murder total 22 times greater than Scotland as a whole.*





* I can't find gun homicide stats for individual US cities, so that's based on the fact that more than two-thirds of all US murders involve firearms, which holds true for the states to which Dayton and El Paso belong. The UK placed heavy restrictions on the ownership of long-guns in 1988 and handguns in 1997.

JayzusB.Christ

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 03 August, 2019, 09:19:56 AM

Probably.

As I said, I despise the way government works and what it stands for - but most people don't. It's not going to be abolished any time soon, so at least I'm open to ways of improving it and bringing it more in line with the wishes of the people.

If people want to believe that the only rights they have are the ones their governments allow them, then at least let the people have a greater hand in the invention of those rights. Let people at least participate in the Grand Illusion rather than just be enslaved to it.

Things like citizen's assemblies and this third house, just like the rest of government, are fundamentally flawed ideas but they might at least be a step in the right direction - bringing "power" closer to its true source.

Oddly enough,  we're on the same page.

My ideal society is radically different from the status quo. 

My imagined anarchist utopia would have had abortion clinics for years and human rights a given no matter who someone happens to be attracted to.

However, in my real society, women had died because my hypothetical clinics weren't there.  LGBT people who loved one another were not given the same freedoms as everyone else, and that had genuine negative effects on their lives, no matter how hard I believed that this shouldnt be so.

Voting in a referendum may be a compromise for an anti-establishment thinker, but it's one made in the name of other people''s welfare.

Refusal to do anything has the same results as apathatetically not bothering: nothing happens and the same people continue to suffer.
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"