I'm not enjoying the prog these days - and I know why.

[Will Cooling]

I also find the idea that only Wagner's Dredd counts to be a bizarre theory that could only be held by somebody deeply ignorant of the strip's history.

Did Wagner come up with Dredd's surname? Nope that was Pat Mills
Did Wagner come up with Dredd's first name? Nope that was Pat Mills
Did Wagner come up with the far-future setting or Mega-City One? Nope, that was Pat Mills in response to Carlos Ezquerra's designwork that Wagner hated so much he quit the series
Did Wagner come up with the idea of there being a whole system of judges? Nope that Peter Harris
Did Wagner come up with the idea of Dredd having a brother who went bad? Nope that was Pat Mills
Did Wagner come up with the idea of Dredd being a clone? Nope that was Pat Mills

So from the first 30 episodes you see the profound impact that writers (and artists!?!) were having on the script - something that took Dredd far away from Wagner's original idea. I've always believed there's a strong argument for Mills to be billed as the third creator of Dredd when you start considering just how big a role he played in its creation. You then have the fact that as has been mentioned Wagner/Grant placed the emphasis far more on OTT comedy/satire than Wagner does by himself.

[Jim_Campbell]

Carlos Ezquerra's designwork that Wagner hated so much he quit the series

Got a cite for that? I rather thought Wagner walked away from the entire title when management reneged on a profit-share agreement that had been proposed when he and Mills were setting up the comic.

Cheers

Hun

[Frank]

Each writer has their favourite themes, characters, and subplots - and allowing them the freedom to write Dredd as they interpret the character (barring anything that completely contradicts character or overall continuity) is the only way to let the strip grow ... Let the creative juices flow!

I s-s-s-e-e-e what you did there, neebs - nobody wants Judge Dredd to turn into Judge Death. I heartily agree with your sentiments, and I don't give a toss about continuity, but I appreciate that puts me in a minority of paying customers round here. Anyway ...

From the response on this thread, I think we can award the Nobel prize for back seat editing to The Goggans Patented Multi-part Narrative Residency Formula. The only niggle I have is that, after checking the length of Grey Area's latest run in the prog, I've discovered that it only ran for ten episodes over three months - and I thought it had been much longer. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it or anything else running in solid blocks of 30 episodes, as prescribed by Doc Goggans.

His and Doc X's ideas involving longer runs of stories merit further discussion, so I'll repost them from the top of the thread. I was thinking that the response this thread attracted might warrant starting a general prog discussion/suggestion thread with a less negative title, but I bet that wouldn't attract half as much input. Comic fans, eh?

Age of the Wolf: 29 episodes over four years.  This is maddening. These should have been 29 episodes over 29 weeks.  Damnation Station: 30 episodes over five years instead of thirty weeks.  Finish it and move it out.  Make room for what appears to be ongoing, character-based stories.

It's sometimes confusing because our editor refers to each "run" as a series, as British television does, but I call each one a "story" instead.  I always like to make a distinction, as Dr. X did, between a SERIES - Strontium Dog, Indigo Prime, Sin Dex - and a SERIAL - a one-off about the event rather than an ongoing cast, like Leviathan, Firekind, or Cradlegrave.  The problem is that we have these fragmented SERIALS drawn out over years instead of punched in over the course of a single story.  You're absolutely right that AotW, Damnation Station, Ten-Seconders (and so on) have a hell of a hard time when they return after months or years away.

When we were kids and we (a) had the free time to reread each prog many times each week and (b) didn't have the Real Adult World taking up valuable real estate in our brain that should be devoted to thrillpower, this might not have been a problem.  But as much as I'd like to remember who the hell the supporting cast of Defoe is, like I once did all them ABC Warriors, I just can't do it ...

We never fell in love with Johnny Alpha because he caught one bounty every couple of years, Tharg.

[Will Cooling]

Carlos Ezquerra's designwork that Wagner hated so much he quit the series

Got a cite for that? I rather thought Wagner walked away from the entire title when management reneged on a profit-share agreement that had been proposed when he and Mills were setting up the comic.

Cheers

Hun

It's been pretty common knowledge - I remember first reading it in the Judge Dredd: Mega-History book in the mid-nineties. Mills goes into it (with quotes from Wagner) in this blog post - http://patmills.wordpress.com/2012/09/22/dredd-the-lawman-of-the-future/

[Frank]

Hi, Will. Campbell's right in this instance.

[jackstarr]

so all Wagner Dredd is cannon and everything else is Elseworlds?  So Awakening of Angels, that is cannon right?

I didn't say anywhere that only Wagner is canon.  He's written his fair share of stinkers ("Phartz", anyone? )

Will Cooling has it, with this:

I also find the idea that only Wagner's Dredd counts to be a bizarre theory that could only be held by somebody deeply ignorant of the strip's history.

Loose continuity is best.  Imagine if the Dredd artists over the years were constrained by the same creative restrictions as fans now expect the writers to be.

[Molch-R]

Imagine if the Dredd artists over the years were constrained by the same creative restrictions as fans now expect the writers to be.

You should see the comments we get on the Facebook page if we dare post artwork of Dredd that doesn't look like Bolland's version...

[SIP]

I think a lot of this debate stems from my initial comments on Wagner and Dredd and I am by no means "ignorant" of Dredd history and the history of the strips development. I think with the exception of a handful of the later daily star strips I have read (and mostly own) every Dredd strip ever published (inclusive of the American version), most multiple times.. I've been aprog reader since around 1980. surely that at least qualifies me to have an opinion on the subject?

[jackstarr]

You should see the comments we get on the Facebook page if we dare post artwork of Dredd that doesn't look like Bolland's version...

That really surprises me.  Bolland's Dredd is nothing like Ezquerra's Dredd, is nothing like later McMahon's Dredd, is nothing like Siku's Dredd...etc.

I really thought that the prog readership enjoyed the artistic freedom in the prog.  Even the sexy ostriches.

Go on, post some Siku Dredd or Sam Kieth Dredd to Facebook and let the world explode

[Dan Banks]

Trifecta?

And with one word, you have ended the argument. Can't believe I forgot about Trifecta, great call.

His and Doc X's ideas involving longer runs of stories merit further discussion, so I'll repost them from the top of the thread. I was thinking that the response this thread attracted might warrant starting a general prog discussion/suggestion thread with a less negative title, but I bet that wouldn't attract half as much input. Comic fans, eh?

I think you're right to bring this back up but I'd argue that the point was not just about 30+ part runs but in fact about a variety of story lengths, so the thread was slightly on topic.

Having really enjoyed the format of Grey Area, and having the same doubts as others over having 30 consecutive weeks of it, perhaps the next step is to take a similar run (a 2 parter, two one-offs and two 3 parters say) and instead of giving it a consecutive run of 10 weeks, just drop it in every now and again in the style of the 3rillers. This would be particularly good for fledgling characters I suspect. Although I'm sure it would open itself up to the same criticisms that future shocks, terror tales and 3rillers are prone to now.

[Jim_Campbell]

So from the first 30 episodes you see the profound impact that writers (and artists!?!) were having on the script

The first year to eighteen months of the strip are very much a case of different writers chucking stuff at the wall to see what sticks. I've observed on several occasions that Dredd really only becomes recognisable as some form of the modern character towards the very end of the Luna-1 interlude, immediately after which he's dragged out of the city and into the Cursed Earth by Mills. It's really only once you hit The Day The Law Died and beyond, almost exclusively steered by Wagner in his John Howard guise, or Wagner/Grant as TB Grover, that the strip really starts to feel like Dredd as we know him now.

Cheers

Jim

[hippynumber1]

Imagine if the Dredd artists over the years were constrained by the same creative restrictions as fans now expect the writers to be.

You should see the comments we get on the Facebook page if we dare post artwork of Dredd that doesn't look like Bolland's version...

I don't know how you can read some of the comments on the facebook page without killing someone!

[JamesC]

So from the first 30 episodes you see the profound impact that writers (and artists!?!) were having on the script

The first year to eighteen months of the strip are very much a case of different writers chucking stuff at the wall to see what sticks. I've observed on several occasions that Dredd really only becomes recognisable as some form of the modern character towards the very end of the Luna-1 interlude, immediately after which he's dragged out of the city and into the Cursed Earth by Mills. It's really only once you hit The Day The Law Died and beyond, almost exclusively steered by Wagner in his John Howard guise, or Wagner/Grant as TB Grover, that the strip really starts to feel like Dredd as we know him now.

Cheers

Jim

I think I may go even further than that. To me 'Classic Dredd' lasts from The Cursed Earth through to the end of Necropolis.
Before TCE it's pretty much proto-Dredd and everything since Necropolis ended is something very different. I guess it's 'mature readers Dredd' or something (from The Pit onwards, not the Ennis, Morrison, Millar stuff).
I think one of the reasons I enjoy stories like the aforementioned Doctor What? Or the one about the new Judge uniform is because they feel more like the Classic Dredd I loved as a child.

[Molch-R]

I don't know how you can read some of the comments on the facebook page without killing someone!

Give me time.

[Skullmo]

For me, Miller's run on Dredd is classic Dredd and I consider anything else non-cannon.