Not sure if it's me or the prog...

[Smith]

Dredd: War Games (set-up for Sino-Cit epic)

Which never really happened.Which might be for the best.

[JOE SOAP]

Whereas I really didn't want the aging problem sorted at all, in fact that was one of the Dredd strips most interesting attributes. I understand why they felt the need to do it, but it was to the detriment of that great building aspect of the strip since question of judgement.

Completely agree with this. Dredd's mortality was part of what made him interesting.

One of the positive aspects of the quick-fix is that it's easily reversible at any point: as with Face Change machines there could be a limit to many times Carousel will be effective.

Despite the cursory skin and muscle job, DREDD is being drawn as an old-fuck by every other artist; so from the visual story it seems the Carousel process hasn't worked out too well for old Joe – a hopeless case with a bad attitude – or Carousel wasn't part of a strict editorial directive to artists and really only a small nod to the possibility of a full re-juve down the line when all the original fans are dead and can't complain.

[Frank]

Big Dave was an attempt to turn 2000AD into Viz...

Shifting well over a million copies at that point, can you blame them? Interesting to wonder where we would be if it had worked even a little bit.  FWIW I'm ambivalent about Big Dave - I find it funnier now than I did then, but oh brother was it a bad fit for 2000AD.

Whereas strips ripping off Tarantino and Pushkin were what nineties 2000ad readers had been crying out for all along! *

You read that list of strips Tharg published in 1993: Luke Kirby, The Clown, and Hogan Robohunter have admirers, but nobody would argue they were classics or that they were pushing boundaries. The Offensive was a blip in a 5 year rut of pleasant forgettability.

Like the 1993 strips listed previously, Tharg's recent commissions feature good work by talented creators. Brass Sun is perfectly well crafted, but nobody is ever going to pick a fight over it. No one thinks Brink is a disgrace or that Grey Area doesn't belong in 2000ad. **

I'm not arguing that every story needs to challenge the liberal consensus, or feature sex crazed dinosaurs fitted with rocket launchers devouring each other as they fuck, but someone must have an idea that doesn't recycle old stories and spout safe platitudes.

Like Vyvyan said, it's all so bloody nice.


* Button Man, Sláine, Ichabod Azrael, Cradlegrave, Sooner Or Later, Invasion/Savage, Al's Baby, Fiends On The Eastern Front - the only thing some of Tharg's most popular strips have in common is that none of them belong in a comic aimed at eight year olds who've just watched Star Wars at the pictures while eating a Marathon bar.

** PAT MILLS: 2000AD WAS DOING THIS TO THE ESTABLISHMENT (flicks Vs to camera as a panel of Bill Savage throwing a punch zooms diagonally across the screen).

KEV O'NEILL: OH, FUCK OFF! (electric guitar howls as a dinosaur bites down on a cowboy).

READER PICKS UP RECENT ISSUE OF 2000ad: 'a goblin must team up with a wizard to save Fairyland ... Worm lady who loves a robot travels to olden days and meets Cyrano de Bergerac? A War Of The Worlds sequel about being nice to immigrants?!

To be fair, you could say the same about the Mills and O'Neill era. Newspaper features always describe 2000ad as born out of Punk and resistance to Thatcherism, so anyone taking a look at the first few issues must be baffled to find a Six Million Dollar Man rip-off, a Cockney lorry driver, and Dan Dare.

[dweezil2]

I hardly think the comic featuring one strip against the norm warrants accusations of 2000AD attempting to emulate Viz.
The Space Girls is a different story altogether.

[Skullmo]

Hold on. Dredd's shifting and developing outlook is what makes him interesting (caveat: Dredd isn't interesting, the megacity is?). No-one reset his brain as far as I know. You give him a paint job, you keep him on the streets longer, surely.

And Fungus has nailed it. If you ask me (and someone might have done you never know) the aging Dredd had been done to death and was getting tired in itself and the story (and character) needed to move on from it. While Carosual hasn't done that entirelyh hopefully its parked it until there's something else to say in the matter.

I think Dredd is more interesting than the city - that's why all the ancilliary character solo series have been short lived except Anderson (another interesting character). When you turn Dredd into an invincible superhero who can live forever you lose some of the magic. For me anyway.

[SIP]

Hold on. Dredd's shifting and developing outlook is what makes him interesting (caveat: Dredd isn't interesting, the megacity is?). No-one reset his brain as far as I know. You give him a paint job, you keep him on the streets longer, surely.

Can't agree with this one at all. Dredd is 99% my interest in the story and I've never held with the "the city and its citizens are the main character", hence my frustrations in the Dredd TV show thread calling for tales of the wacky citizens.

I like Judge Dredd himself and his completely unique real time aging and shifting views were the heart and soul of the strip for me. Take that away, and I feel you are left with the post Wagner,  1990's Dredd, which was mostly just ain horrible.

[Colin YNWA]

Hold on. Dredd's shifting and developing outlook is what makes him interesting (caveat: Dredd isn't interesting, the megacity is?). No-one reset his brain as far as I know. You give him a paint job, you keep him on the streets longer, surely.

Can't agree with this one at all. Dredd is 99% my interest in the story and I've never held with the "the city and its citizens are the main character", hence my frustrations in the Dredd TV show thread calling for tales of the wacky citizens.

I like Judge Dredd himself and his completely unique real time aging and shifting views were the heart and soul of the strip for me. Take that away, and I feel you are left with the post Wagner,  1990's Dredd, which was mostly just ain horrible.

I agree that Dredd is a fantastic fascinating character. The key thing is though that Dredd feeling the years has been mined for years and as such to remove it, somewhat, from the plate allows his character development onto other things. It opens the story to dealing with other fresher aspects of that character rather than an ongoing focus on him getting old.

The physical matters dealt with in Carousel is just a practical way of moving the 'discussion' on. It on no way makes him a superhuman. He's still a man, he still has magnificent potential as a man and is still vulnerable. It simply addresses the fact that he regularly gets the tar kicked out of him but can still function in the hardest job in the world. It explains longevity does not imbue immortality.

The physical aging does define the cgaracter nor its 'removal' or in fact its delay does stop the character development.

[Frank]

 
Whether the comic is enjoyable depends on the creators, not the characters.

[Fungus]

Hold on. Dredd's shifting and developing outlook is what makes him interesting (caveat: Dredd isn't interesting, the megacity is?). No-one reset his brain as far as I know. You give him a paint job, you keep him on the streets longer, surely.

Can't agree with this one at all.

...shifting views were the heart and soul of the strip for me.

But that's what I said. No-one rejuved his 'views'.

[SIP]

Hold on. Dredd's shifting and developing outlook is what makes him interesting (caveat: Dredd isn't interesting, the megacity is?). No-one reset his brain as far as I know. You give him a paint job, you keep him on the streets longer, surely.

Can't agree with this one at all.

...shifting views were the heart and soul of the strip for me.

But that's what I said. No-one rejuved his 'views'.

But this is what I've been arguing, I can't find or tell you what Dredd's views or feelings are nowadays, the strip has lost that. In my eyes he really has lost the subtlety that he had developed, and that seemingly departed along with Wagner.

I don't really care if they rejuve him or not, it's not his appearance that is the problem for me, it's the character himself.

[TordelBack]

But this is what I've been arguing, I can't find or tell you what Dredd's views or feelings are nowadays, the strip has lost that. In my eyes he really has lost the subtlety that he had developed, and that seemingly departed along with Wagner.

I'd argue that the Williams strips have spent TOO much time telling us about Dredd's feelings: I suspect the problem is that a plurality of writers means inconsistent views, rather than an absence of them.

[jacob g]

I'd argue that the Williams strips have spent TOO much time telling us about Dredd's feelings:

Actually I love that about Williams scripts. Maybe because I like old'n'tired Dredd and his cold fury and this is good balance to some of the Carroll scripts where sometimes Dredd is just... there, more like pawn that need to be moved from place to place cuz the story need advance rather than being integral part of it.

[BPP]

Williams Dredd is miles beyond what anyone other than JW has managed.. The unrelenting fury of the man while constantly facing a city turned to crap. Rob Williams and Henry Flint is pure Dredd gold. Whereas the other Dredd world that has emerged post DoC is just so unremittingly meh.

[Spikes]

And chalk me up as a Williams Dredd fan as well.

He is responsible for some of the very best Dredd tales of late, and long may it continue. And I really appreciate the profundity he brings to Dredd. Something I didn't know I was missing, until I started reading his tales. And having Henry Flint on board, for the most part, helps as well. :-)

No-one can touch Mr Wagner, especially when he's on fire, but I get the same tingle of anticipation seeing Rob's name in the credit box, as I do John's.

[The Adventurer]

Williams is really good at the big spectical, Carroll at the down to earth procedural stuff. Together they're strike a pretty good balance imo.