Zenith returns in Prog 2050!

[Frank]

You keep assuming that new stories would be generic crap. That's what I take issue with ...

It's fashionable these days to assume the only people who can handle a property are the original creators. how did that work out for the Phantom Menace and Rouge One?

Star Wars is a good example of what I'm talking about. If you like Force Awakens and Rogue One, good for you - but nobody thinks they're great.

I don't think they're awful, I think they're average - which is what I expect more Zenith, more Devlin Waugh, and more Indigo Prime to be. More for the sake of more.

I'm basing that assessment on 30 years of Tharg giving writers a crack at house characters. Some were okay, others were awful, none of them were great.

As you point out, Zenith wasn't so special that it needs resurrecting. A novel voice combining ideas in new ways is what means Zenith is remembered as great.

If Rory McConville, Nigel Long, and Matt Smith have great story ideas, I'd rather see them create new strips that might turn out to be great in their own right.

[Arkwright99]

...Zenith is NOT a staggering work of literary originality...It's a knock off Alan more with a little HP Lovecraft, brilliantly repackaged for the Stock Aitken and Waterman generation.

Phase III, in particular, also owes a sizeable debt to Mike Moorcock (the Multiverse, Conjunction of the Million Spheres, 93 Mantra's Chaos symbol, etc.), an author Grant has ripped off 'paid homage' on more than one occasion, as well as the aforementioned Moore and Lovecraft.

Of course, it's not so much whether a work is especially original or not - there's an argument that originality is very rarely viewed sympathetically but rather it's the refinement of existing ideas that garner the most plaudits - but whether it does anything interesting. I think Morrison's Zenith was certainly interesting. Whether any non-Morrison originated material can also be interesting will be down to the specific creative teams involved (although I would say Yeowell's involvement in any future projects has to be pretty much essential for them to have any sort of validity).

[Steven Denton]

I think Rouge One is the best Star Wars Film. as A story I found it to be more complex, with better characters and stronger writing and acting then any of the other film. I think it's great as do a number of people I know. (85 and 87% fresh would suggest my friends and I don't hold this opinion in isolation)

None of my Favourite Batman Stories are by Bob Kane and Bill Finger, none of the X-Men stories I likes were by Stan Lee. My favourite ever Rouge Trooper story is Cinnabar.

Zenith is fondly remembered with perhaps a degree of nostalgia inflating how good it is in our minds, the thing is new Zenith, good or bad wouldn't diminish that, it's not a Jewel to be displayed untouched and pointed at to show what comics could be, it's a good story that was well executed. If Rory McConville, Nigel Long, and Matt Smith have great story ideas for Zenith I'm as happy to see that as I am Rory McConville, Nigel Long, and Matt Smith's great story ideas for new characters.



     

[Dark Jimbo]

I don't think they're awful, I think they're average - which is what I expect more Zenith, more Devlin Waugh, and more Indigo Prime to be. More for the sake of more.

In fairness, Indigo Prime is mid-story; arguably, so is Devlin (his last story was a prologue for something yet to come). Zenith is a bit of a narrative closed loop, and would feel like more simply for the sake of more.

[Frank]

None of my Favourite Batman Stories are by Bob Kane and Bill Finger

That's not my argument, Steve.

My argument is that, based on the available evidence*, a Zenith rehash would be okay at best.

I'm not sure what's lost by just trying something new instead.**


* Thirty years of it.

** Something new by the same creators would probably just be okay too, but it would at least add something different to the world and stand a slim chance of being the kind of thing readers are still discussing in thirty years time.

[TordelBack]

Kingdom could have been a Rogue Trooper story, Shakara could have been a Nemesis sequel, Harlem Heroes could have been Harlem Heroes... isn't it better that we have both (apart from that last one)?

[Woolly]

Maybe we should just let creators create and judge the results when they're printed? 

[I, Cosh]

Well, we're back after the weekend break with the answer that absolutely nobody demanded. We can immediately see that one wag spoiled his ballot paper but the big surprise is that I am hopelessly out of tune with the British electorate for the third time running as it's a runaway victory for Phase III.



I should mayeb nail my own colours to the mast. I think the first three phases are all fantastic and four is only a disappointment in comparison.

Like Star Wars, the first is still my favourite as it contains seeds of the others but remains self-contained and has so many standout moments. Two opens out the world and the backstory while Three smashes it gleefully to smithereens and probably shades the best art: there are a couple of individual panels of Mandala and Maximan, hewn from a couple of blocks of thick, black ink which have stuck with me since it was first published.

While thinking about the spurius Crisis on Infinite Earths comparisons, I came across this insightful post where the writer points out that

It's not setting out to unify or rationalise everything, but setting up a threat worse than the end of a world and it's using a whole load of forgotten and invented characters to provide texture and context for that threat. It's closer to Luther Arkwright [or Moorcock] than Crisis.

It just occurred to me that the whole time Eddie, an ordinary human, is able to outsmart and handle the threat posed by Zenith in much the same way that Peter St. John is able to defeat the Lloigor. As above, so below.

... like Watchmen it's a complete story - it doesn't lend itself to more tales.

Zenith doesn't have the horological precision of Moore's Magnum (space) Octopus, but it is all about structure. And that structure is a closed loop.

Nah mate. It's an omnihedron.

Although I pretty much agree. We need more Zenith the way we need more Dante.

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

Whenever I see the "I wish the'yd just do something new instead" line, I tend to read it as "I wish they'd just do something new instead so I wouldn't hear about it wouldn't read it and wouldn't be interested."

Zenith is an incredible character and I want to see more of him.

[Steven Denton]

None of my Favourite Batman Stories are by Bob Kane and Bill Finger

That's not my argument, Steve.

My argument is that, based on the available evidence*, a Zenith rehash would be okay at best.

I'm not sure what's lost by just trying something new instead.**


* Thirty years of it.

** Something new by the same creators would probably just be okay too, but it would at least add something different to the world and stand a slim chance of being the kind of thing readers are still discussing in thirty years time.

New Zenith would be something new, that's why it would be called new Zenith and not Zenith that already exists.

[Dark Jimbo]

It's fashionable these days to assume the only people who can handle a property are the original creators. how did that work out for the Phantom Menace and Rouge One?

Or - closer to home - the recent (awful) return of Bad Company?

[Frank]

Zenith is an incredible character

I'm not sure he is. See discussion above.

I'm unconvinced by the idea that characters are the main draw, although I can see why it suits publishers to promote that agenda.

When a character has a great line or does something surprising, it's because the writer had a good day at work, rather than anything intrinsic to the fictional shade.

Good creators can produce a great story about a dud character, but the reverse is never true.

[Hawkmumbler]

It's fashionable these days to assume the only people who can handle a property are the original creators. how did that work out for the Phantom Menace and Rouge One?

Or - closer to home - the recent (awful) return of Bad Company?

That was written by Milligan though, only Ruffus stepping up to fill a role there.

[Dark Jimbo]

It's fashionable these days to assume the only people who can handle a property are the original creators. how did that work out for the Phantom Menace and Rouge One?

Or - closer to home - the recent (awful) return of Bad Company?

That was written by Milligan though, only Ruffus stepping up to fill a role there.

Yes, I know, that was my point - written by the original creator, and yet it was terrible.

[Frank]

I think Jim was citing Kano & Co to illustrate that the original writer doesn't always shit gold - which, once again, for the record, isn't an argument I made.*

Props once again to The Cosh for conducting a poll to prove himself wrong and me right. The subsequent posts suggest the reason for Phase III's overwhelming popularity is indeed that it looks a lot like what readers expect a superhero event story to be.**

Since we're sharing our feelings, only my initial reading experience - particularly the lengthy intermission and dodgy repro during Phase III - allows me to grade the different phases.

Morrison's on fine form throughout - at the time, I had no idea he was helping himself to the fiction-stuff of others, but now I do I'm impressed by the wit and verve with which he does it - and Yeowell makes like a Tibetan monk at Joan of Arc's barbeque too.***


* The ability of humans on the internet to participate in lengthy discussions solely by refuting points that only they have ever made is almost reassuring in its familiarity.

** even if, as Cosh explains, it's something a little more interesting

*** I agree that something's gone from his art by Phase IV, but I blame that on having to alter his style for The Invisibles. Just as the Ghostbusters learn never to cross the streams, Yeowell should never close up those allusive lines and destroy that wonderful negative space.